Logain's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[lilltempest]

Personally -and I suspect many will disagree - I loved Logain's arc. 

 

I think you are missing some key factors in your assessment, although certainly it is understandable. However, Logain's madness is that he fears losing the OP, which extends to Power in general. His severing in the first book and subsequently the attempt to Turn him changed him for the worse. He fears that if he isn't powerful enough, that the Aes Sedai and the Shadow will destroy the Black Tower. He thinks he needs power, extreme power, which will make everyone fear him. Channelling strongly isn't what he is talking about. The sa'angreal is a different case, since it is EXTREMELY Powerful, something that can destroy nations. But he wants SOMETHING that will protect him and the Black Tower from people. 

 

He is sick of the prejudice against male channelers, he wants the Black Tower to live in peace. With his madness and torture manifested, he thinks the way to do that is by acquiring something that will make him feared. 

 

He struggles with it, and in the end his inherent good nature wins out, where he realises that helping people and showing them that the Asha'man are heroes, not monsters, gave him exactly what he wanted.

 

His glory I felt fitting, the Sealbreaker and hero of the people. Sure, he didn't go round killing Dreadlords and Forsaken every second minute, but his glory, for me, was much more emotional and important than glory in defeating an enemy. He restored the good name of male channelers. Channelling saidin as a Talent, not a curse.   

 

Logain place was more a symbol, and ideal, rather than an actual fighter. Androl and co. did everything for Logain and his ideals. They follow him, he could have made or broken the Black Tower. It wasn't his power or prowess that was important, but his inspiration. His sheer willpower and dedication to the Light made him. Not the strength of his fireballs. 

This, times a billion. I don't think he's achieved his glory yet, though. What happened in this book was just the beginning.

 

After reading the spoilers, I worried about his part in the story as well, but was quite pleased with it. Yes, I wish he had done more, but the man had just withstood weeks of unimaginable torture. It was stated that he was much thinner than before (they were likely starving him to weaken him more) and that it was apparent he went through hell. To call the man a wuss is laughable, especially in relation to Egwene. Egwene was never severed, nor was she forced to endure repeated attempts to force her to turn to the Shadow.

 

Logain remained strong against something we saw other people fall to in a very short time (all of those other Asha'man were turned in an hour or hours and Toveine was turned in mere moments, whereas he had had this done to him several times a day for weeks). That, in and of itself, is beyond impressive. After all of that, he had absolutely no time to recover and was immediately thrown into the final battle. That he was even able to function is a testament to just how strong he really is, and his desire for power to protect him from a third bout of hell is completely understandable (Egwene, after being with the Seanchan was attacking anyone who appeared a threat, almost got herself - along with Nyn and Elayne - recaptured again because she couldn't control herself, and then attacked the one Whitecloak who was halfway reasonable after Verin told her to shut the hell up and let her handle it...and she didn't suffer half of what Logain did, unless the Seanchan have been hiding Shadowspawn all this time). That he was able to see the error in his ways so quickly, and to have an epiphany that helping people would gain him and the other Asha'man respect and admiration from people much quicker and more effectively than scaring them (similar to the way the AS have done for so long) was also a testament to his character. He will be a good leader for the Asha'man, and he will be ensure they gain a reputation as protectors - guardians - just like he told that woman.

[SinisterDeath]

Meh, Logain was my least favorite person in this book.

He went all emo whiney (like rand did when he was captured) started to go for the whole power-ego trip thing. Then did the whole mandatory hero redemption at ultra speed (not rand's snail pace)

 

Dunno, I'll have to re-read the series again but... this is hte first PoV of logain that I recall (again, may have had others, but its been awhile) he just seemed completely out of character to me...

[Valley of Death]

Now Asha Man can actually mean guardian. The population of Randland will have guardians in the 4th age

[Suttree]

 

 

 

Personally -and I suspect many will disagree - I loved Logain's arc.

 

I think you are missing some key factors in your assessment, although certainly it is understandable. However, Logain's madness is that he fears losing the OP, which extends to Power in general. His severing in the first book and subsequently the attempt to Turn him changed him for the worse. He fears that if he isn't powerful enough, that the Aes Sedai and the Shadow will destroy the Black Tower. He thinks he needs power, extreme power, which will make everyone fear him. Channelling strongly isn't what he is talking about. The sa'angreal is a different case, since it is EXTREMELY Powerful, something that can destroy nations. But he wants SOMETHING that will protect him and the Black Tower from people.

 

He is sick of the prejudice against male channelers, he wants the Black Tower to live in peace. With his madness and torture manifested, he thinks the way to do that is by acquiring something that will make him feared.

 

He struggles with it, and in the end his inherent good nature wins out, where he realises that helping people and showing them that the Asha'man are heroes, not monsters, gave him exactly what he wanted.

 

His glory I felt fitting, the Sealbreaker and hero of the people. Sure, he didn't go round killing Dreadlords and Forsaken every second minute, but his glory, for me, was much more emotional and important than glory in defeating an enemy. He restored the good name of male channelers. Channelling saidin as a Talent, not a curse.

 

Logain place was more a symbol, and ideal, rather than an actual fighter. Androl and co. did everything for Logain and his ideals. They follow him, he could have made or broken the Black Tower. It wasn't his power or prowess that was important, but his inspiration. His sheer willpower and dedication to the Light made him. Not the strength of his fireballs.

This, times a billion. I don't think he's achieved his glory yet, though. What happened in this book was just the beginning.

 

After reading the spoilers, I worried about his part in the story as well, but was quite pleased with it. Yes, I wish he had done more, but the man had just withstood weeks of unimaginable torture. It was stated that he was much thinner than before (they were likely starving him to weaken him more) and that it was apparent he went through hell. To call the man a wuss is laughable, especially in relation to Egwene. Egwene was never severed, nor was she forced to endure repeated attempts to force her to turn to the Shadow.

 

Logain remained strong against something we saw other people fall to in a very short time (all of those other Asha'man were turned in an hour or hours and Toveine was turned in mere moments, whereas he had had this done to him several times a day for weeks). That, in and of itself, is beyond impressive. After all of that, he had absolutely no time to recover and was immediately thrown into the final battle. That he was even able to function is a testament to just how strong he really is, and his desire for power to protect him from a third bout of hell is completely understandable (Egwene, after being with the Seanchan was attacking anyone who appeared a threat, almost got herself - along with Nyn and Elayne - recaptured again because she couldn't control herself, and then attacked the one Whitecloak who was halfway reasonable after Verin told her to shut the hell up and let her handle it...and she didn't suffer half of what Logain did, unless the Seanchan have been hiding Shadowspawn all this time). That he was able to see the error in his ways so quickly, and to have an epiphany that helping people would gain him and the other Asha'man respect and admiration from people much quicker and more effectively than scaring them (similar to the way the AS have done for so long) was also a testament to his character. He will be a good leader for the Asha'man, and he will be ensure they gain a reputation as protectors - guardians - just like he told that woman.

Damn Lil...what's going on around here these days? We seem to have had a sea change in terms of agreement lately. ;p

[Elan Tedronai]

what a waste of space logain has been.

 

for 3 books i waited for bated breath and he disappointed. His glory was pointless because eventually people would turn around to male channellers since saidin has been cleansed and aes sedai and ashamen were already bonding.

 

His glory should have been the first of new raised male aes sedai and leader of all channellers by killing of taim.

[Nimic]

The closest I came to having tears in my eyes from reading this book was Logain's realization that he didn't need the sa'angreal to secure the future of the Black Tower and male channelers, after rescuing the refugees.

 

He's always been one of my absolute favourite characters, and I have to admit that at one point I was pretty worried that his arc would turn out in a way that I wouldn't like (not because it would necessarily be poor writing, but because it's not what I selfishly wanted for Logain).

[Gisli]

I also agree with Barid about Logain.

Although originally I looked forward a Logain-Taim showdown, it was an even better idea. As picklemess wrote "I also think it was a nice twist on Min's viewing as the glory for Logain will be less about power and control (+ heroic deeds in the Last Battle) -- the things he wanted -- and instead he'll be remembered as the one who made male channellers respected again"

Furthemore his portrayal (struggle) and character development was probably the best after the Darth Rand in the last few books. It was a good decision to concentrate his inner turmoil instead of adding more action scene. I wish it would have been the situation with other characters (especially Demandred) as well.

Finally imho it was far the best arc in the book.

[probe907]

I thought Logain's arc was a failure. Granted, that's because I had expected Logain to do something really interesting on-stage for about 7-8 books. In the end the unknown Androl stole Logain's thunder. I also hated Logain's epiphany - because it was fake. Logain did NOT relinquish his hunger for glory to save people - rather the opposite - he was only satisfied after the population started cheering him - precisely because he was a Trolloc-killing badass.

Nor did Logain's lust for power fit well with his restistance to Turning. Though perhaps we can claim that the failed Turning had half-broken Logain, and infused him with some evil.

[batcaver]

In some ways Logain's personality really mirrored the way Taim was presented back in LOC.  His character really affected me in this book, so kudos to whatever author that came from. 

 

I really hated him.  I was really hoping he'd get killed, allowing BT leadership to pass to Androl, who IMO is far more worthy.  Egwene can be haughty too at times, but I've got sufficient character history with her to allow sympathy and forgiveness.  Pretty much all of Logain's scenes have portrayed him as a self righteous control freak with an ego bordering on god complex.  Not an uncommon personality type in WOT to be sure.   I can see his motivations, in the same way that I can see Tuon's, but I just can't get behind him because that's pretty much all we ever get from him.  Lots of people in WOT have suffered.  In fact, Rand's arc deals with this pretty directly (albeit pretty flatly as well).  You still have a choice, and Logain constantly chooses to be a self important douchebag.  This bothered me so much because he had so many followers.  Maybe it was just the contrast with Taim, but how is this guy supposed to be the center of the BT when all he seems to be interested in is seeking recognition?  I didn't feel his presence as a leader was convincingly demonstrated.  I'm convinced he has lots of fans only because he's a strong male channeller and was a big series mystery for a while.

[Mitchell Shick]

In some ways Logain's personality really mirrored the way Taim was presented back in LOC.  His character really affected me in this book, so kudos to whatever author that came from. 

 

I really hated him.  I was really hoping he'd get killed, allowing BT leadership to pass to Androl, who IMO is far more worthy.  Egwene can be haughty too at times, but I've got sufficient character history with her to allow sympathy and forgiveness.  Pretty much all of Logain's scenes have portrayed him as a self righteous control freak with an ego bordering on god complex.  Not an uncommon personality type in WOT to be sure.   I can see his motivations, in the same way that I can see Tuon's, but I just can't get behind him because that's pretty much all we ever get from him.  Lots of people in WOT have suffered.  In fact, Rand's arc deals with this pretty directly (albeit pretty flatly as well).  You still have a choice, and Logain constantly chooses to be a self important douchebag.  This bothered me so much because he had so many followers.  Maybe it was just the contrast with Taim, but how is this guy supposed to be the center of the BT when all he seems to be interested in is seeking recognition?  I didn't feel his presence as a leader was convincingly demonstrated.  I'm convinced he has lots of fans only because he's a strong male channeller and was a big series mystery for a while.

 

This. I agree completely. Always thought he was a douche, and I was extremely glad that someone else stole his thunder.

[John Everyman]

Here's a hypothetical I want to throw out: how do you guys think that relations between Logain and Cadsuane will go? 

 

I think it would be reasonable to assume that, if Egwene were to remain Amyrlin, relations would be a lot smoother, partly because Logain may trust Egwene for freeing him from Aes Sedai captivity, partly because Egwene showed an openess to work with male channelers before.  Granted, Cadsuane will likely do that as well- she's quite adapable, and was present at the cleansing.  That said, I'm not sure Logain will appreciate Cadsuane's style of... diplomacy.  I wonder, for example, if he'll let Nynaeve heal his madness, and the madness of the rest of the Asha'man. 

 

Logain was definitely a bit scarier in this book than in others.  Dunno if that was Brandon's mark, but I'm more inclined to say it was a reflection on his failing psyche, from both the madness and the week of attempts to Turn him.  I think he would make a fine leader, assuming he allows Nynaeve to heal him.

[lilltempest]

Here's a hypothetical I want to throw out: how do you guys think that relations between Logain and Cadsuane will go? 

 

I think it would be reasonable to assume that, if Egwene were to remain Amyrlin, relations would be a lot smoother, partly because Logain may trust Egwene for freeing him from Aes Sedai captivity, partly because Egwene showed an openess to work with male channelers before.  Granted, Cadsuane will likely do that as well- she's quite adapable, and was present at the cleansing.  That said, I'm not sure Logain will appreciate Cadsuane's style of... diplomacy.  I wonder, for example, if he'll let Nynaeve heal his madness, and the madness of the rest of the Asha'man. 

 

Logain was definitely a bit scarier in this book than in others.  Dunno if that was Brandon's mark, but I'm more inclined to say it was a reflection on his failing psyche, from both the madness and the week of attempts to Turn him.  I think he would make a fine leader, assuming he allows Nynaeve to heal him.

I think he'll be a great leader, and no doubt Nynaeve will Heal whatever madness he suffers. As for dealing with the White Tower...

 

I think things between Logain and Egwene would not have gone nearly as well as people suspect. Egwene was very hostile to the fact that Aes Sedai were bonded against their wills (despite the fact that they brought it on themselves by attacking the BT with the intent to kill every man there), and though she ultimately blamed Rand, she would have gone ballistic once she found out Logain held the bonds of not one, but two, Aes Sedai. Logain would not have bowed down to her after being attacked and would not have taken her attitude well at all, even if she was responsible for him being freed from the AS.

 

I think Cadsuane will handle it much better with the BT and will not be as hostile to Logain. She has the attitude of "what's done is done" and will let the whole bonding thing go without trying to "punish" Logain and the other Asha'man for it. I think she would also be interested in the double bonding Pevara and Androl did and see the advantages to it. Egwene would not have liked the "equality" of that bond...she wanted the AS to have the upper hand with the men.

[Suttree]

People need to keep in mind we have no idea if Cads will even end up as Ayrlin. It wasn't an official summons and she has escaped that exact scenario before.

[sleepinghour]

People need to keep in mind we have no idea if Cads will even end up as Ayrlin. It wasn't an official summons and she has escaped that exact scenario before.

 

I think Cadsuane will grudgingly accept, if only because the Tower lost a huge number of AS and needs a strong leader to pick up the pieces. Siuan and Romanda are dead. IIRC, Lelaine made it, and probably has enough influence to make herself Amyrlin if Cadsuane escapes, but she'd make a poor Amyrlin and Cadsuane probably knows that.

[Aulduron]

I agree with Barid.

[Mord]

Didn't Min have a viewing that Cadsuane had something to teach all of the Ashaman?  I suspect she has yet to fulfill that but will do so as Amyrlin.

[Aulduron]

I believe she taught them the necessity of laughing and crying, because they are men, not weapons.

[Duskfire]

People need to keep in mind we have no idea if Cads will even end up as Ayrlin. It wasn't an official summons and she has escaped that exact scenario before.

 

personally I think she will realise the Tower needs her. Whoever is Amyrlin will have to forge relationships with the Aiel, the Asha`man, Seanchan, the Kin, Sea Folk, etc etc. It is a much much different world then previous, and the Whitetower will need to evolve to suit the new world. Cadsuane will work this out and at least be one, short term.

 

But you are right, its all speculation.

[hjustinpace]

Here's a hypothetical I want to throw out: how do you guys think that relations between Logain and Cadsuane will go? 

 

I think it would be reasonable to assume that, if Egwene were to remain Amyrlin, relations would be a lot smoother, partly because Logain may trust Egwene for freeing him from Aes Sedai captivity, partly because Egwene showed an openess to work with male channelers before.  Granted, Cadsuane will likely do that as well- she's quite adapable, and was present at the cleansing.  That said, I'm not sure Logain will appreciate Cadsuane's style of... diplomacy.  I wonder, for example, if he'll let Nynaeve heal his madness, and the madness of the rest of the Asha'man. 

 

Logain was definitely a bit scarier in this book than in others.  Dunno if that was Brandon's mark, but I'm more inclined to say it was a reflection on his failing psyche, from both the madness and the week of attempts to Turn him.  I think he would make a fine leader, assuming he allows Nynaeve to heal him.

Interesting you mention Nynaeve. I think the debacle at her testing cemented her independence from the White Tower. With everything she did for Rand and her ability to heal madness, she is well positioned to normalize relations between the towers (probably the best we can hope for, they will always be rivals). I thinks Cadsuane is better equipped to deal with the Black Tower, her incredibly abrasive personality notwithstanding.

[balefireruinssteaks]

I think I understood Logain's brashness in the closing war scenes.  He wanted that sceptor because of what it represented and he had JUST been tortured and attempted to be Turned...he didn't really have a lot of time to recover before he was thrust into the Last Battle...so I can imagine that he had a lot of inner demons to confront or push aside in trying to get his head together.  I liked how his story ended...that he thought he would have to dig through the mountain to find the sa'angreal...and he realized that the people respected and blessed Asha'man.  He realized that he didn't need that protection, but people admired male channelers now.  It was very touching in my opinion.  His glory would come from restoring the bad name of saidin, really, and male channelers.

 

I did wonder what happened to all those weaves they learned, though.  I mean...we saw a few Deathgates, but what about Blossoms of Fire and other stuff?  Did they just forget about those?

[Brontes]

Logain =  annoying ass spoild brat that doesnt get his way....   too bad he didnt die  :(    least androl and pevara are still around to help his ass out ! 

[decrepid dragon]

I really like the way Logain's arc turned out. I thought his glory would be from fighting in the battle and killing Taim or Bao the Wyld (I love that name), that it was for another reason was great. I mean EVERYONE else who achieved glory achieved it through killing things, it was great that somebody who caused so much suffering and went through so much will achieve it through helping people in time of peace.

[Edynol]

I liked Logain's arc.  Wasn't my favorite, but still good.  Just remember that story wise, Logain is a somewhat minor character.  We don't see all that much of him in the series at all.  He's had as much or maybe more exposure in this one book than he has the entire rest of the series.

 

One thing I also noticed about this book, is that a lot of minor characters got POVs.  Like Uno, Hurin, etc.  And I also like how a few minor characters got promoted to major supporting character, like Androl and Talmanes.  I still can't get over the Uno POV.  Pound for pound it was one of the most epic POVs in the story.  lol.

[Sabio]

I don't think Logain seeking to become feared and powerful was out of character for him.  He did proclaim himself dragon reborn, start a war, has a deep hatred of aes sedai, and only went to Rand becuase he really had no choice.  He wasn't a nicey nicey type guy, he was sort of on a power trip.  Like so many others he was looking ahead after the war for a way to benefit himself and the BT. He looked at things like after the last battle things would go back to the way they were and male channerles would be hunted.  I like at the end he realised thing were changing and men channeling no longer were going to be feared but would be looked on as helpers.  Instead of people being afraid it was going to become I am proud if my son can channel. 

[orient]

I'm not sure I understand why some of the posters above object to the portrayal of Logain so much. To me, his motives and his actions made quite a bit of sense - I'd go so far as to say he seemed more real than many of the other characters in the book.

 

This is a guy who proclaimed himself as the Dragon Reborn in a world that was very against male channelers, believing that it was his role to save the world (I'd imagine the taint contributed somewhat to his delusions of grandeur). He was captured, paraded through cities like a caged animal, and finally gentled, which we're told is a pretty horrible thing to do to a channeler. Things start looking up when he's Healed, and then he's captured by Taim and his cronies and almost turned by his 13 x 13 circle.

 

Unlike Egwene and Rand, whom people have mentioned as characters who have suffered significantly in the same period, Logain doesn't have much in terms of guidance, or praise, or anything really to make his suffering worthwhile at that point. Sure, he had some respect amongst his faction of the Asha'man, but that hardly compares. I'd say he was far less angsty than pre-epiphany Rand.

 

And I'm glad his moment of glory didn't involve destroying Taim or Demandred. The Black Tower and the Asha'man were already feared for their power; what they needed was respect and belief that they were a compassionate force of good.