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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Gisli

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  1. Let me see if I can boil it down for you: Army X and army Y are in a war. Neither is able to win against the other. Army X is at peace with other nations. Army Y is not precisely a nation, and while nominally allied with other nations, cannot violate their land, or use any of their resources. When they attack the holdings of army X, they need to use Gateways. They themselves have only one major city in a desert waste, and as such, while being brilliant warriors, don't have the logistical depth to defeat the other army. They hold on because of their extraordinary valor. Now, in an altered scenario, army Y has the right to call on the armies of all the nations. They can freely move in all the nations, and are responsible for maintaining peace between them, including the lands of army X. Being able to move through the lands of army X, they can study them, and understand their behaviors. When they attack, they attack with the combined forces of all the nations under them, and get to coordinate the attacks, as they have the mandate to do so. Rather than a few dozen different strategies for a dozen different wars with army X, all the nations are part of one war effort. They don't enter the conflict one at a time, they enter together. In the first case, army X fights army Y to a standstill. Then Andor-Cairhein joins the war. Then, in indeterminate order, the other nations join in. In the alternate scenario, there is no such time gap. There is no "fighting to a standstill" over several generations. Its a unified war effort from the start. Get it? In altered scenario there may not even be a war. Period. Of course. This argument is purely hypothetical. No one is denying that the chances of an actual war are remote. Let me see if I can boil it down for you: Army X and army Y are in a war. Neither is able to win against the other. Army X is at peace with other nations. Army Y is not precisely a nation, and while nominally allied with other nations, cannot violate their land, or use any of their resources. When they attack the holdings of army X, they need to use Gateways. They themselves have only one major city in a desert waste, and as such, while being brilliant warriors, don't have the logistical depth to defeat the other army. They hold on because of their extraordinary valor. Now, in an altered scenario, army Y has the right to call on the armies of all the nations. They can freely move in all the nations, and are responsible for maintaining peace between them, including the lands of army X. Being able to move through the lands of army X, they can study them, and understand their behaviors. When they attack, they attack with the combined forces of all the nations under them, and get to coordinate the attacks, as they have the mandate to do so. Rather than a few dozen different strategies for a dozen different wars with army X, all the nations are part of one war effort. They don't enter the conflict one at a time, they enter together. In the first case, army X fights army Y to a standstill. Then Andor-Cairhein joins the war. Then, in indeterminate order, the other nations join in. In the alternate scenario, there is no such time gap. There is no "fighting to a standstill" over several generations. Its a unified war effort from the start. Get it? The unified war from the very start will result in what happened when Andor joined Aiel in Avi;s vision only faster. Logically that is the only conc lusion. Yes. Very logical. Andor+Cairhein is exactly the same as Andor+Chairhein plus all the other nations, plus the White Tower, plus the Asha'man, plus the Sea Folk. Yes all of them were smashed by Seachan after a draining war with the Aiel. Imagine what the Seachan would do if they did not have the draining war with the Aiel first. Massacre!! Are you really not seeing the difference between the two situations here? There is no difference.The reason Randland lost to Seachan was the ability of the Seachan to farm damane from Randland.That is why the Aiel were not defeated initially because the Seachan could not use Randland to get more Damane as the Aiel did not hold territory from which they could do that..That primary ability(that they will farm damane) remains if all nations attack them together at once. And because of the absence of any loses due to not having to fight a mobile infantary like the Aiel for decades without the chance to make a move on territory they will be able to destroy Randland faster in the second scenario. Any attack by Aiel on Seachan will lead to the WT becoming a big nice tower filled with damane. I disagree. I think that the Senchan won because the Aiels and the different nations (institutes) fought independently, without any coordination. It supports that Andor and the Aiel disliked each other, there was no trust between them. I even suspect that some nations (WT because of the Three Oath?) didn't even join to the war initially. Thus, the Seanchan could capture the countries one by one and got more damane as you wrote. But now there is a good chance that they would face with an unified Randland + Aiel. It is a totally different situations, it is always much easier to defeat a loose coalition than an organized power as the military history proved several times.
  2. I think you didn't mention Jahar Narishma.
  3. I agree with this point, RJ wrote himself in a corner and there were no good way out. Even if the AS, AM, WO etc. had fought only with the Dreadlords they could have been too dominant force in the battles. I think the same goes to the missing channellers as well. Nevertheless BS could have found a better solution for both problems.
  4. I can find no reference for Ashmanaille dying. Only that she opened a Gateway for Min to go to the Seanchan camp. Also, any idea what happened to Silviana? I'm kind of confused we didn't get to see her. Surely, she joined Egwene's rally. Was she Balefired? And what about Narishma and Merise? All these were with Egwene. Did they live, did they die? Narishma (and consequently Merise) survived Egwene's last stand. He was last seen to heal Lan after his clash with Demandred. Since during it Narisma and Lan went back to the base camp (i.e. they didn't participate the fight) and it happened at the final phase of the battle, he and Merise almost certainly live. In the same way you can deduct that the all of Rand's and Perrin's Ashaman (except from Karldin) probably survived the FoM. For sure we know only about Flinn and Grady.
  5. I agree that there was no way for Logain to win against Demandred in that situation. So I am not calling Logain's skills average because of his loss. But it that it is clear from their clash that Logain had no idea what type of weaves Demandred used in the most cases. So his knowledge and consequently his skills (or fighting ability etc.) are lacking. Which is perfectly understable with his (average male channeler's) background. His skills are lacking in comparison to a forsaken not in comparison to a regular 3th age channeler. Would you call the skills of Cads average? she had to go in groups trying to fight Graendal who would have smoked her if she came alone. I disagree, the skill gap between Cadsuane and Graendal should be much smaller (but the strength difference is significant and the latter may have had a stronger angreal). Thus, it was a surprise me that Cadsuane + Alivia + Talaan + Amys (this group contained two Forsaken level channelers!) couldn't overwhelm Graendal. I suspect that it just happened to give some spotlight for Aviendha (i.e again plot-driven contradiction). In general I think that the skills and more importantly knowledge of an average Ashaman are significantly lower than those of AS. They are good "weapons" like the damane which gives edge in duels but it doesn't mean much when you face with a Forsaken. Note that they just starting to rediscover the intricacies of saidin after 3 thousand years. In contrast the WT preserved a lot of knowledge about the saidar, even if they forgot critical weaves (Travelling etc.). In conclusion Logain is better than the most Ashaman, but his skills are probably at the same level as an average AS (or as Nynaeve?).
  6. and yet Androl was able to force both Taim and Graendal to run in fear. I think he could easily have killed Demandred if he had duplicated what he did at the tower and just started to have thousands of Sharan drop to their death especially effective if he placed the other gateway above the other Sharans, just drop about a hundred sharans on Demandred that should easily have killed him. It was joke that he "defeated" Taim and Graendal. That is the reason that I have been saying that his skill are ridiculuosly owerpowered. Especially compared with other Talents. At least Graendal should have had a counter for his deed, because he was not the first who was born with his skill. There is an the intricate balance present in the world of WOT for everything, so it does make sense to have a way for channeler to neutralize his Talent aside from the Dreamspike. He couldn't have killed off Demandred, because the latter (+ LTT) also had Talent with Travelling and Gates (see FOH? and indirectly BWB). If I remember correctly he even used it against Logain.
  7. I agree that there was no way for Logain to win against Demandred in that situation. So I am not calling Logain's skills average because of his loss. But it that it is clear from their clash that Logain had no idea what type of weaves Demandred used in the most cases. So his knowledge and consequently his skills (or fighting ability etc.) are lacking. Which is perfectly understable with his (average male channeler's) background.
  8. Except he does nothing to actually earn that leadership, his given leadership of the Black Tower by Androl, to put this in comparison this would have been like if the White Tower division had been ended by Reiko sneaking into the White Tower throwing Elaida off of it and then the White Tower Aes Sedai just announcing that Egwene Al'vere was the new Amyrlin. If Sanderson had wrote that people would have rioted and said that Egwene Al'vere had been made to look like an idiot. Yet its perfectly fine for Logain to flat out lose the Black Tower civil war, get nearly his entire group turned, get rescued, and then have some no name do the actual work that Logain was to incompetent to do. We are told that Logain will become some great leader we are never shown that Logain is a great leader (in fact as I pointed out the guy is written to be an incompetent leader). Logain may be a nice guy deep down but he lacks the charisma, strength and intelligence (at least when written by Sanderson) to be a leader. Logain has a great charisma, everybody is following him despite losing Black Tower civil war against Taim and he also had the srength to resist against the Turning. Nevertheless I agree with you, I wouldn't be very comfortable to obey to such leader, either. Sanderson could have portrayed Logain as a relatively competent leader even with his failings, but he has messed up it, probably because he concentrated too much to his character, Androl. I like his internal struggle and his grey character, but his arc could have executed much better. PhoenixUK "Also it was amusing that androls skill was of far more use than all of Logains brute strength in saidin." It is clear from his fight with Demandred that Logain's skills are below average (he doesn't even recognize most of the weave Dem used). It is totally understandable, there was no way for him (or for an average Ashaman) to learn a much about the saidin. Only Taim, Flinn (healing), maybe Narishma (balefire etc.) got some tutoring from Demandred, Aginor and Rand, respectively. Androl is lucky, because he has an unique skill set and opportunity to experiment with it. Nevertless it is annoying that only his skill were developed enough. I could mention at least a dozen known talents which could have achieved the same results, but there is no Ashaman who seem to possess them or learn how to use them properly. It was Sanderson's way to power up his pet character and to ensure that he he became a major player. For me it is little bit artificial and doesn't really fit to the earlier books.
  9. quote class="ipsBlockquote"> Interview: Jan 9th, 2013 Skokie Q&A (Verbatim) Question Was there a character that you took in a different direction than Robert Jordan had originally intended? Brandon Sanderson Not specifically against his wishes. If it was in the notes, talking about a character...one of our first requirements, and I put it on myself on this, was to avoid going in different a direction from Robert Jordan with anything, specifically because I didn't want these books to become about me. I wanted them to remain the Wheel of Time. Now, I had to be nudged by Harriet at several points early on. She would tell me, you have to change some of these things. You do have to be willing to write the book as it needs to be written; Robert Jordan wouldn't have stuck to this outline exactly, and if you did stick to it exactly, it would feel like it doesn't have any life to it. And so, there are times, when I was working, and mostly these are plot things—I would say, "You know what, we need to change this." An example of this is in The Gathering Storm, there's a scene—it's not too bad; it's not a big spoiler [laughter]—but there are several scenes where Egwene is having dinner with the Amyrlin. Well, that was originally in Robert Jordan's notes as one scene, and I split it to two scenes, where there's a dinner, it breaks, and then we come back, and I put some things in between because with the narrative flow of that sequence, it felt more powerful for me to work with it that way. I didn't remove any of the things that Robert Jordan said to have happen, and used several of his scenes that he'd written to construct those, but in that case, I felt that moving it around like that made for a better book. And so that's the sort of thing I would change. I will say that, early on, when I first met with them, I did say, "I would like to have a character that I can just kind of do whatever I want with," so that I have, you know...it was kind of, maybe hubristic of me or whatever—I wanted to do that, I'm like, "Can I have one to play with? I want an Asha'man to play with." And it was actually Maria who suggested Androl, and said "Go look at him; there's not a lot written about him. The personality, Robert Jordan doesn't have much written down for who he is, and he seems like he's well-poised to do this. That would be a very good one." So Androl, almost everything that's happening with him, Robert Jordan didn't say "Do it with him." There are things I have him doing that Robert Jordan said, in this notes, "This has to happen." But I specifically took Androl as a character and went places with him. I guess it depends on which of the statements you want to give emphasis to. I don't believe that BS would choose to take certain plot points from 1 character and give them to another. But in this case, I feel that the resolution of Logains arc backs it up. If Logain had defeated Demandred in a OP battle (overcoming the power difference somehow), or had killed Taim or found the seals, then it just confuses the fact that his 'glory' was the rehabilitation of the Tower. It's entirely possible that Androl took the accomplishments of several (undesignated) Ashaman and thus ended up with more credit than any other Ashaman would have got under RJ, but for me that doesn't detract from the things Logain accomplished. "It's entirely possible that Androl took the accomplishments of several (undesignated) Ashaman and thus ended up with more credit than any other Ashaman would have got under RJ" It is my problem with him. He became too dominant even compared with the main heros especially for a practically unknown character. Although I don't like Narisma since the WT (Merise!), but I wouldn't have minded him in this role because at least he had had some foreshadowing (at least we thought so). The best solution would probably have been to choose two Ashaman (one for the BT plot + one for recovering the seals) for Androl's tasks.
  10. I agree that Androl stole his thunder. I kinda like that Logain was internally scarred from battling the 13x13. Thought it was a great touch. But, after that, he did almost nothing. His story was one of the stories I was a bit disappointed in. I disagree that Androl stole his thunder. Although (like most other people) I was expecting some sort of showdown with Taim, or maybe one of the other Forsaken, I am actually infinately happier that his 'glory' came not because of his strength in the power, but because of his strength of personality, because despite his attempts to teach himself that power was what mattered, he couldn't turn his back on civilians that were in trouble. I found it to be a strong arc, and one of the best in the book. Adding any of the stuff that Androl did would just detract from what he actually did that was so important, the entire BT arc was summed up for me in one sentance when the woman referred to it as a Talent and not a Curse and that was because of Logains actions, because he led the BT there to help. But what Asha'man couldn't do what Logain did (well at least one alive and not Turned)? I mean how does this stand out to the average Randland person? Is anyone going to reminesce and think back to the time that Egwene Alvere wiped out all the Sharan channelers and a foresaken in one blow or the duel Lan had with Demandred and then someone says "Those were nothing remember when Logain lead 5 Asha'man to save a bunch of refugees"? No one is going to say that because its not impressive. The Asha'man did it all the time throughout the series. I dont see why Sanderson made it a big deal when Logain did it. Logain's role was not become a hero of the TG like Egwene. He is the leader of the BT (everybody regards him so) who needs to find their place in the new world. He will get his glory for this task, not for his accomplishment in the TG as everybody (probably himself) expected. Saving civilians is very important from three different reasons. 1. He had his epiphany which necessary for his task. 2. He has started to rehabilitate the male channelers in eyes of common people. Curse-Talent 3. As he said in this scene the BT always protects (I don't remember the exact quote), in other words he found a reason (first from the many) why the existence of the BT is important, what will it do in the future.
  11. I totally agree (except from maybe the WT of the AoL), it is a good conclusion of my view as well.
  12. Overall I more or less agree. Nevertheless it was a bit annoying for me that the WT got their heroic fight and critical role in the LB, while WOs, Findfinders and Ashaman did practically nothing (and most of them are missing) except some individuals (e.g. Androl who I really dislike). I have nothing against the WT outshining every other "institution". I expected that and it was also logical. But the contrast was too big and unreasonable for my liking. PS. I think you have overestimated Egwene's role here a little bit. Make no mistake I am not saying she wasn't one of the most important character, but I don't think she was the only one who could achieve everyting(!) you wrote. For example Cadsuane etc. could have done their "job" with an other Amyrlin as well.
  13. Elayne's forces only won because of the intervention of BT. It was a true pyrrhic victory against a big, but not very disciplined army (compared especially with the Sharans). Egwene (Gareth) was outgeneraled by Demandred, who laid a trap for the WT. So the initial victory meant nothing. "We have the armies of light that are well led with battle hardened soldiers, has immense fire power (male and female channellers and Aludra's munitions), and FAR more mobile than Demandreds forces." They lost at least half of their forces and the "immense fire power" was heavily downgraded in the last book. Their mobility wasn't really used either. Otherwise LB would have been much easier for the Light. Demandred could have destroyed the army at the SG before even Mat (or Gareth in the earlier phase) realised what were happening. Like he did in Kandor. Furthermore I am not sure that the Light could have afforded to burn the southland. And I didn't say that this army should only contain Trollocs. Nevertheless you are right, it isn't the best strategy. There are several other good moves too draw out Mat's army from its position. "Demandred could have split his force, sent the Sharans to SG and Trollocs to ramapage through the southlands" I didnt say it, it would certainly be a failing strategy. Either you need to deceive the Armies of the Light or leave a big enough army (with enough Dreadlords, Taim??) for them to fight with. Most probably both as I mentioned earlier. The battlefield was clearly picked by Mat.
  14. Because it wouldn't have been enough. Plus, they had no males. At the most they would have matched the Aiel, which leaves the windfinders, the seachan and the BT/WT to outnumber them. So, still over 2 to 1 They had males channelers.And the difference could be made up by the Aiel red veil channelers. I think Sanderson missed a chance here. Think Vards means they shouldn't have had many male channelers as they are all killed once they reach a certain age. Unless Demandred followed Taim's tactics for the black tower, all the Ayyad bloodlines up until 17 would have been available and they could have most likely forced anyone from 13 upwards. Morr wasnt exactly much older than that. Add in scouring parties travelling across Shara and in the 2 years Demandred had there he could have gotten them all well and truly sorted, and thats assuming he wasnt smart enough to start before the cleansing. He could have 13x13'd them and gotten them protection against the taint. The entire Demandred arc wasnt that well thought out in my opinion. I enjoyed it because I think he's a cool character. But it makes him look inept as hell that while in control of an entire continent that he managed such a piss poor army. Sorry but a few hundred channellers and a few hundred thousand troops is a little on the small side in comparison to any large nation and Shara is the better part of 2x Randland. He could have had an enormous slave army backed with a stonking load of channellers. And then we could have had the last battle we'd been led to believe was coming before the Aiel and Seanchan decided to have a bath and a tea party and sit out the last battle. I agree, but see my earlier post. And Demandred also was portrayed as an inept general, he had several option to won the war and he chose one of the worst one.
  15. Because it wouldn't have been enough. Plus, they had no males. At the most they would have matched the Aiel, which leaves the windfinders, the seachan and the BT/WT to outnumber them. So, still over 2 to 1 They had males channelers.And the difference could be made up by the Aiel red veil channelers. I think Sanderson missed a chance here. And if he wanted to still make the nos equivalent he could have used a powerful forsaken attack which destroys a huge no of light channelers in one shot.That would have been better instead of just forgetting about huge nos of channelers on the light side and inversely making it so that the dark side has an advantage in the no of channelers in every single battlefield. I also thought about it. But I suspect we have missed the point here. Simply Jordan or/and Sanderson didn't want to write a big war dominated by channelers. There is a reason that we have only a few One Power combat (BT, Egwene/Taim (twice), Demandred/Logain, Graendal/Aviendha and everyone else), especially compared with the true honest battle scenes. It is easier this way to show the struggle for the victory, the hopelessness after the initial battles, the contribution and heroism of the common folk etc. My theory is that Jordan made a mistake both with the number and strength of channelers and there was no good way to correct it without changing the plot.
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