Prologue Through to the End of the Epilogue--Full Book Discussion.

[Suttree]

No one that I have seen has ever used those quotes to say it conclusively disputes the voice. The theory has always been creator or do. An actual physical manifestation is something entirely different. Still curious for examples of why you no longer trust Q&As. Would you mind providing one? I get your point about canon but I can't recall what you at suggesting ever happening.

 

@skalors

No confirmation on who the grey hair women was but Brandon has already stated my the theory plant angle is wrong.

[Taura-Tierno]

 

The strife between the Ashaman and the Aes Sedai is far from over and could easily throw the land into chaos. And what of Shara? Are they now seen as a whole country of Darkfriends by the world and will they be indiscriminately purged for their role in the Last Battle? I'm sure Tuon will be happy to help. Or what will happen between Andor and Two Rivers now that Faile is Queen and Perrin is no longer ta'veren. Or what will happen with the Band and Andor? With Min and Mat when Tuon inevitably sails for Seanchan?

 

Even more, what will happen to the minor characters? Who survived? Who died? And the numerous fortellings scattered across the entire book. Who will Sarene have a "tempestuous love affair" with now that she's one of many corpses on Shayol Ghul? What on EARTH is Logain's glory? The one that few men could hope to attain.

 

The Last Battle has ended, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the story has ended for those who survived! We can guess their future, but your theory is as good as mine.

 

I don't think we could've been given answers to these questions without cheapening it. Would a sentence stating "The Asha'man set up the Black Tower and eventually they started working together happily with Tar Valon" had satisfied everyone's curiosity? It would have felt like too little. Adding more than that about everything would've made another book entirely, though.

 

I am insanely curious to know what happened, for instance, to the White Tower and the Aes Sedai and Asha'man. I don't feel that it woul have been necessary to add to the book, though. I think the hints provided are sufficient. There is never an end to a character's story, unless we actually follow them to the death and see how their entire lives play out.

 

Regarding Logain's glory, I assumed that it was his actions raising the esteem of the Black Tower, as people obviously adored him at the end, when he saved those innocents. To me, that clearly indicates that he'll be integral in restoring the world's faith in male channelers. That's one heck of a glory.

[Guest Dokomo]

 

 

i felt it was a slow starter, the prologue, chapter 1,2 and 3 not really starting much off. as this was the last book i started to resent these chapters as not much was happening and it meant there less space for the rest. i suspose this is a consequence of them being pre release material, but it just seemd like a waste of words. a little less androl and a little more epilogue would have suited more.

 

i enjoyed fains death, but thought more would have been made of the 'different type of evil' that he encompassed, i thought his absence in the preceeding books combined with his lack of page time demeans him as a character.

 

moridin was a bit of a wet fish. worst naeblis ever...

 

possibly the worst name for a weave ever, 'flame of tar valon'.

 

im not sure how i feel about the ending. the books seem to present themselves as a contradiiction with regrds to the metaphysical elements. the pattern does not alow certain choices, but does others, the prophetic elements give an underlying impression of fate not choice etc.

 

if rand cant channel anymore, he cannot travel. randland is a big place if you only have a horse.

 

thought narishma would have bit more of a contribution.

 

happy overall, would have liked epilogue but i did not expect so many charcters to survive so even a couple of pges is nice. egwene needed to die to provide some amount of validity.

yeah that weave seems like it was pulled out of a hat to make Egwene's death more epic. Having read all the books i dont recall any mention of a weave that can repair or undo balefire. I kind of doubt whether the more powerful channelers from the age of legends even knew such weave existed. Im basing that on the fact that it was mention in one of the books that during the war of powers a semi agreement was reached between the shadow and the light not to use balefire because of its affect on the pattern. Had they known that weave i would have thought they would have a "balefire party" knowing that the damage could be fixed. So absent any additional information i find the "flame of tar valon" extremely cheesy IMO

The name is very cheesy, and I find it troubling that even Egwene doesn't really know what she's doing. Almost, it seems as if RJ didn't leave detailed notes on this, so Brandon just chose to not come up with them himself. That seems to be the case at several points, actually. But its hardly impossible for Egwene to innovate and do something no one in the AoL thought of doing/managed to do. 

 

I actually thought the FoTV was a great idea. Think of it this way. Balefire is like a small burn mark on a piece of cotton cloth. It burns and chars around it in a circle. The Flame of Tar Valon though acts like a fire on nylon instead. The fibers melt together and cauterize the area, halting the spread of the fire. It cannot replace the pattern, but it isolates the holes in reality.

[Rayquaza1090]

Shara: What the...totally disliked this country coming out of pretty much nowhere to be the final big army.

 

Well, Waldo- er, Demandred had been waiting there since the early books in complete secret, even from the other forsaken, it's easy to say why he has such a big army. He was pretty much able to do whatever he wanted without the other forsaken knowing, I think.

[skalors3]

No one that I have seen has ever used those quotes to say it conclusively disputes the voice. The theory has always been creator or do. An actual physical manifestation is something entirely different. Still curious for examples of why you no longer trust Q&As. Would you mind providing one? I get your point about canon but I can't recall what you at suggesting ever happening.

 

@skalors

No confirmation on who the grey hair women was but Brandon has already stated my the theory plant angle is wrong.

I was actually questioning your belief that Brandon came up with Nakomi. I don't see him adding some random character like that on his fancy. Especially since it is likely that it is Nakomi at the end of the book who Rand didn't recognize. The mystery now becomes "who is Nakomi " not "who is the unknown grey haired lady."

[CTGryffindor]

No one that I have seen has ever used those quotes to say it conclusively disputes the voice. The theory has always been creator or do. An actual physical manifestation is something entirely different. Still curious for examples of why you no longer trust Q&As. Would you mind providing one? I get your point about canon but I can't recall what you at suggesting ever happening.

Are you playing a game of semantics with the "conclusively" qualifier? The ONLY reason there was any debate---and I never found it a compelling debate because the text so clearly indicated that it was the Creator communicating with the "chosen one"---is because people relied on Jordan's comments that the Creator doesn't interfere.

 

The link below is an earlier thread on the subject, but you could find hundreds of like assertions if you so desired:

 

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-4513.html

 

As for your suggestion that hearing a voice in one's head is oh so different than communicating with an image, well, I could argue that an image of Nakomi-Creator is as consistent with Jordan's non-interference comments as a voice in Rand's head. But my point is, I don't need to. I rely on the text only as conclusive because extra-canonical statements are not definitive and can often mislead (even if inadvertently, like the interference comments did to some).

[Suttree]

I was actually questioning your belief that Brandon came up with Nakomi.

It has come to light that Brandon created a huge amount of the material from scratch. The notes were far less extensive than originally thought. Sure someone will ask follow ups on this tour however.

 

@Gryff

 

As I have said a coupe times I understand your point about canon. Forget about the voice for a sec and lease provide examples of Q&As contradicting what is in the book. You have not yet done so.

[CTGryffindor]

Would you mind providing one? I get your point about canon but I can't recall what you at suggesting ever happening.

I did not mean to imply that I stopped following Q&A's because of some particular I-can't-believe-he-was-so-misleading example. I didn't even really stop following Q&A's entirely. They were useful for deciphering riddles like who killed Asmodean (probably a bad example) or where was Demandred. I just stopped putting any faith in them as to how to interpret the book more generally, and that was brought about as much by other authors and other series as much as by WOT.

[MrBlack]

I finished a little over half of the book before skimming through the rest to the end.  I need to give the last half a thorough re-read, but I have to say that I was quite satisfied overall.  Rand and Mat both had perfect endings, as did Cadsuane.  Perrin's ending was a bit underwhelming, but it was in line with the rest of his storyline through the latter half of the series.  I wish we could have seen more of Moraine and Thom at the end, but that's a minor complaint.

 

It seems fairly obvious that The Voice is the Creator.  As far as Nakomi, I could see how she could be an avatar of the Creator sent to guide the characters to a "good" end after the Last Battle (thus not directly interfering in the conflict), but there are plenty of other equally valid theories. 

 

I spoke to Brandon briefly about it at a book-signing for ToM, and it seemed like there IS an explanation for Nakomi, but he was holding it close to his chest, since he wasn't sure how much it would be addressed in AMoL.  Now that the last book is out, he may be more forthcoming.

 

I actually did ask if Nakomi was the Tom Bombadil of the series, but Brandon was reluctant to say much.

[Christina Gleason]

My two cents on the OMG WHOSE VOICE WAS IT "debate":

 

The Creator. If it was the Dark One, he would not have referred to what Rand was doing as "THE TASK." The Dark one might have said something like "LET'S FINISH THIS," but he wouldn't have told Rand to be about his "task."

 

This does not fly against anything RJ said in his Q&As. The Creator is not taking a hand in this battle. He is simply communicating with the Dragon without actually DOING anything. 

 

I don't see how this can be misunderstood. The VOICE IN ALL CAPS here was the Creator.

[olso4644]

One of my favorite things about wot is the fact that it technically is our future and past, so I love picking up little clues of things that exist in our universe (such as the mention of rifles in one of Rand's vision with the Dark one). On page 712, Tuon, "was the only one who saw the twin lines of smoke rising exactly behind him  from the Heights. An appropriate omen for Knotai: a large gamble would yield large rewards. Or a great cost." Obviously, this would be really controversial, but could that be a reference to the world trade center. It might be a stretch, but that would be really interesting if it was. 

[Callandora]

From a book signing BS stated Nakomi came from deep into RJ notes and that he didn't think that as per RJ wishes much will be be disclosed about her

[MarkDiLillo]

From a book signing BS stated Nakomi came from deep into RJ notes and that he didn't think that as per RJ wishes much will be be disclosed about her

 

If you're going by what we just saw someone post in another thread, you're changing the truth here.  It was not mentioned that "per RJ's wishes" nothing will be disclosed.  The quote we saw just said that Brandon didn't think RJ wanted the explanations revealed.  There is a big difference between Brandon's personal thoughts and RJ specifically stating that he doesn't want it revealed.

[Axon]

 

I was actually questioning your belief that Brandon came up with Nakomi.

It has come to light that Brandon created a huge amount of the material from scratch. The notes were far less extensive than originally thought. Sure someone will ask follow ups on this tour however.

I don't see how anyone could think otherwise.  Of course we were told that so we wouldn't wig out; this is, after all, a fan base that will argue about anything.   I'm sure Harriet or someone knew where RJ wanted the story to go. However, it was Brandon's job to fill in the gaps, which is not an easy task. I give him credit for it, even if I didn't love all of it. 

 

My only irritation with BS is his use of "modern" phrasing in dialogue; the characters regularly talk like people in the United States in the year 2013.  I expected Mat to give Rand a sarcastic really? during their little game of one upsmanship.

[KakitaOCU]

I was actually questioning your belief that Brandon came up with Nakomi. I don't see him adding some random character like that on his fancy. Especially since it is likely that it is Nakomi at the end of the book who Rand didn't recognize. The mystery now becomes "who is Nakomi " not "who is the unknown grey haired lady."

As someone already said, it's confirmed Nakomi was RJ's creation. So that kind of settles that ish. That said he did also admit to creating Androl as his kind of personal touch on the series. He did go onto say that most of what Androl does were actions from RJ's notes regarding things that happen but not tied to specific characters. So he gathered them into one new person.

 

Take that for what you will.

 

Edit: Regarding Nakomi, I've tossed up my pet theory that she's Verin. As in Verin is one of the heroes, when she died she was then able to act from T'A'R and deliberately used a prior body/form so as not to throw people into preconcieved ideas based on her being verin.

 

I note that this never gets any comments, either good or bad. Just curious, is that because people write it off as completely insane or just because it's valid but not able to be argued well one way or another?

[MrBlack]

 

I was actually questioning your belief that Brandon came up with Nakomi. I don't see him adding some random character like that on his fancy. Especially since it is likely that it is Nakomi at the end of the book who Rand didn't recognize. The mystery now becomes "who is Nakomi " not "who is the unknown grey haired lady."

As someone already said, it's confirmed Nakomi was RJ's creation. So that kind of settles that ish. That said he did also admit to creating Androl as his kind of personal touch on the series. He did go onto say that most of what Androl does were actions from RJ's notes regarding things that happen but not tied to specific characters. So he gathered them into one new person.

 

Take that for what you will.

 

Edit: Regarding Nakomi, I've tossed up my pet theory that she's Verin. As in Verin is one of the heroes, when she died she was then able to act from T'A'R and deliberately used a prior body/form so as not to throw people into preconcieved ideas based on her being verin.

 

I note that this never gets any comments, either good or bad. Just curious, is that because people write it off as completely insane or just because it's valid but not able to be argued well one way or another?

Well then, bravo to Brandon for creating Androl.  It bothered me that very few channelers seemed to be thinking about how to use gateways as anything other than a means of travel.  It made sense in a way: the weave wasn't rediscovered until fairly recently in the books, and Aes Sedai are fairly conservative when it comes to innovating with the Power.  It was, however, good to see at least one Aes Sedai using gateways in a clever fashion, as well as seeing Androl weaponizing them in what should have been fairly obvious ways.

[Darkenmal]

Not going to read 46 pages, but what happened to Logains prophecy, his glory and him stepping over the body of Rand?

 

Confused... 

 

Book was still amazing though, the best ending for anything I have ever seen.

[Callandora]

 

I was actually questioning your belief that Brandon came up with Nakomi. I don't see him adding some random character like that on his fancy. Especially since it is likely that it is Nakomi at the end of the book who Rand didn't recognize. The mystery now becomes "who is Nakomi " not "who is the unknown grey haired lady."

As someone already said, it's confirmed Nakomi was RJ's creation. So that kind of settles that ish. That said he did also admit to creating Androl as his kind of personal touch on the series. He did go onto say that most of what Androl does were actions from RJ's notes regarding things that happen but not tied to specific characters. So he gathered them into one new person.

 

Take that for what you will.

 

Edit: Regarding Nakomi, I've tossed up my pet theory that she's Verin. As in Verin is one of the heroes, when she died she was then able to act from T'A'R and deliberately used a prior body/form so as not to throw people into preconcieved ideas based on her being verin.

 

I note that this never gets any comments, either good or bad. Just curious, is that because people write it off as completely insane or just because it's valid but not able to be argued well one way or another?

Mostly because alot of fans strongly feel like Nakomi is an avatar for the creator as the stronger possibility

[esvath]

Well then, bravo to Brandon for creating Androl.  It bothered me that very few channelers seemed to be thinking about how to use gateways as anything other than a means of travel.  It made sense in a way: the weave wasn't rediscovered until fairly recently in the books, and Aes Sedai are fairly conservative when it comes to innovating with the Power.  It was, however, good to see at least one Aes Sedai using gateways in a clever fashion, as well as seeing Androl weaponizing them in what should have been fairly obvious ways.

 

Not only Aes Sedai are conservative, they also are secretive and guarding their weave with such jealousy. If not, they will develop the weave to listen at other people conversation and use it as a means of tele-communication. A phone, if you will.

 

I was amused by Mat's use of Gateway to establish communication between Tuon (and himself) with Egwene (and the Hall). Why no one ever think about this before? Open a Gate to speak to other? (like Skype conference lol)

 

Not going to read 46 pages, but what happened to Logains prophecy, his glory and him stepping over the body of Rand?

 

Confused... 

 

Book was still amazing though, the best ending for anything I have ever seen.

 

A) he is the Sealbreaker

B) his helping the Caemlyn refugees make the common people think highly of the Ashaman.

[BFG]

Edit: Regarding Nakomi, I've tossed up my pet theory that she's Verin. As in Verin is one of the heroes, when she died she was then able to act from T'A'R and deliberately used a prior body/form so as not to throw people into preconcieved ideas based on her being verin.

 

I note that this never gets any comments, either good or bad. Just curious, is that because people write it off as completely insane or just because it's valid but not able to be argued well one way or another?

My personal feeling is that Nakomi may well be a hero of the Horn (although my opinion on this does change with different arguments) but I don't believe she's Verin for a couple of reasons.

 

I think the meeting had to be in TAR, the food cooks quickly, Nakomi manages to sneak up on Avi (particularly given how proud Avi was of her sneaking skills in MoL)...

 

Whoever Nakomi is has to have extensive knowledge of the Aiel - primarily because of the food, the understanding of ji'e'toh (sp?)... I know that Verin has spent some time amongst the Aiel, but I'm not convinced she'll have the knowledge to mimic an Aiel so precisely,

 

Given the timeline issues with tGS and ToM it's possible that Verin dies in time to rejoin TAR, but it's close. Verin dies the night of the Seanchan attack, this is some days before Eg notices the cloud breaking, my impression is that it's a week, maybe 2 between these events - Eg has only recently become Amrylin. Avi meets Nakomi a few days run from Rhuidean, then goes through the first time (which takes, say, a week) and the clouds break sometime during her second trip through. So you have to be very generous with the Eg timing and very tight with the Avi timing for the death to work. It is of course possible that Verin had a dream terangreal that allowed her to enter TAR while still alive.

 

Finally (and this is pure preference), Verin is awesome, she's (pretty much) single handedly brought down the BA and that's been her life long ambition. She always seemed dedicated to fighting the DO (and surviving if and when possible), I don't see her splitting her attention to the Aiel at such a crucial moment, I'm also not sure why she'd care so much.

 

 

So in short the arguments against it (that I have) are pretty weak. Third is opinion and personal preference, second is dodgy based on the timeline issues in the last 3 books, and it's theoretically possible that Verin does have the knowledge of the first. But my opinion is that she's not, especially given the Q&A thread

 

 

 

apparantly Nakomi is a character created by Jordan, buried deep in his notes. Sounds like this squashes the Verin theory

 

 

[Suttree]

I've always like Verin=Nakomi best. Think the implication could be she was Aiel in a past life works for her knowledge? Also provided the below material in another thread on the mythological history for the name.

 

Dom

Much more specific: Nakomi is the Moon Goddess who taught the shamans about the Dream and how to enter it, and gave men Dreamcatchers (a charm to protect sleeping people from nightmares).

[CTGryffindor]

Regarding Nakomi, I've tossed up my pet theory that she's Verin. As in Verin is one of the heroes, when she died she was then able to act from T'A'R and deliberately used a prior body/form so as not to throw people into preconcieved ideas based on her being verin.

 

I note that this never gets any comments, either good or bad. Just curious, is that because people write it off as completely insane or just because it's valid but not able to be argued well one way or another?

I think it is certain that Nakomi was the gray-haired Aiel that Rand saw in a semi-conscious state at the end of A Memory of Light. My reasoning is two-fold: (1) the Nakomi mystery required some kind of reveal in the final book; and (2) the similarities in the physical description are, therefore, too much to dismiss. Having reached the above conclusion---and in light of the obvious fact that the Creator's aversion to interfering with the fight with the Dark One doesn't mean abstaining from interfering with the Pattern altogether---it seems obvious that Nakomi was an image or projection of the Creator.

 

Could it have been Verin? Sure, I guess, except how and why would Verin choose to appear to Aviendha? Verin has no connection to the Aiel that we know of, so there is no reason to think that she'd be uniquely motivated to care for their future. Nor is there any indication that Heros of the Horn, if Verin was one, had the ability to foresee the future, in which case there is no reason to think Verin would know she should intervene.

 

The Nakomi character did two things that we know of: (1) helped secure the Aiel's future; and (2) silently coaxed Rand to survive while hearing his little discourse on theology. Nothing that we know about Verin makes it likely she'd be tied to those two events. It is likely that a meddling, but not interfering, Creator just might.

[Callandora]

Lol I don't think Terez is overly confident or enthusiastic about the possibility of Nakomi=meddling creator

[Suttree]

So been thinking on this and I think it is more likely that Rand fills that role and at the end realized he was a sort of hybrid Creator version of SH. SH was said to be a "shadowy avatar" without the full powers of the DO after all. Rand seems to be something more than human(fully embraced Light Champion/Super Hero of the Horn) now and fully understand the metaphysics of the world. Will be interesting to see if that knowledge fades over time a la Birgitte.

[CTGryffindor]

Lol I don't think Terez is overly confident or enthusiastic about the possibility of Nakomi=meddling creator

 

You can bring a horse to water, but . . . , well . . . you know the rest.