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Luckers

Prologue Through to the End of the Epilogue--Full Book Discussion.

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I really (really) dislike the concept of the dragonsoul serving the DO, though. I know RJ said it, but the thing is, if that were the case, why did the DO not win when that happened? Isn't the dragonsoul spun out the face the DO? If so, then wouldn't his serving the DO mean that the DO will win? As we just saw, all it really needed was for the dragonsoul to acquiesce to the DO's plan? Really doesn't make sense to me. But he said it, so I guess it doesn't have to.

 

In the past when the Dragon Soul went over the result was a draw. The DO has won many victories, just never a "complete one".

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I was never a big fan of Mordeth (Padan Fain), but I thought his end was a little anti-climactic.  His death was more like an afterthought that had to be fit in the final chapters somewhere.  After all the buildup in the earlier books, I found his death a little disappointing.

 

'River of Souls' could be a reference to Mashadar. Maybe the upcoming outtake will be about Padan Fain.

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Lan, in term of "Evil" heroes, I wouldn't be surprised if there are several, just not relevant to this telling.

 

Brandon's said that Ishamael/Moridin's soul is tied to LTT/Rand and get spun out with him.  There's an evil soul that's part of the balancing mechanism of the pattern.  Who's to say there aren't other evil souls about?  Heck, maybe in the 6th age a bore gets drilled not into the domain of the DO but into the Creator, then goodness builds and overwhelms until some sadistic/Selfish person sets it right?  (I wouldn't want to read this story, but Rand vs the DO and the whole balance of it all makes me think I might not be as far fetched as I seem).

 

But even evil aside, Verin is a hero.  While she may have done some evil she did it to stop a greater evil, might not be "good" in a Galad sense, but considering she directly lead to the death of how many evil channelers right before the Last Battle?  Helped clean the Tower and make sure it was relatively united to face the Shadow?  Her actions could have conceivably saved the world.

 

Plus I like to think she's Nakomi.  Verin dies, wakes up in T'A'R.  Decides to help Aviendha and Rand, uses her older form so they won't be suspicious of confused by the issues of who she was in this turning.  Just a pet theory, but it works for me.

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Wish lan, talmanes, galad and faile would have died would have added more to the last battle.

 

Also i wish we would have seen elaida in a collar fighting the sharans.

 

I think the biggest issue was that this was suppose to be one book not 3, so elaida would have been taken away then they head to the last battle. It makes me wonder how much brandon added for egwene. Did RJ intend to fit the white tower attack, cleansing it in TAR and then egwene at the last battle all in one book?

Edited by NitroS

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I am fairly certain that RJ killed Egwene.

It was certainly his idea. James Oliver Rigney, Jr. received a degree in Physics while Brandon Sanderson recieved a degree in Creative Writing. A major theme, "belief and order give strength", likely brings to mind crystals for anyone who has an appreciation for Physics. A crystal is an ordered structure with low entropy, while fire raises entropy by destroying order. It follows that the opposite of balefire would be balecrystallization if I may be forgiven for coming up with such an unwieldy term. I see this as being planned from the very first moment balefire was introduced, as there is always balance to the Wheel of Time.

 

*I apparentally do not know how to spell bale.

Edited by Hadilmir

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Whoah, Rand can't be bonded anymore, that's a process that requires laying weaves on a brain, and his brain is being cremated at the end of the books.

 

Edit, I posted this in Quality, but it probably belongs here or something. To those disappointed by Moiraine's lack of screen time, I give you my breakdown. She is one of my favourite characters.

 

Rand is walking out of the tent, walking out of the Dragon's Peace meeting altogether when Moiraine shows up. I mean, Rand still fights the DO, but likely loses because of no cohesion of the light side forces.

 

Then she jedi mind tricks everyone into signing. Then she is one of the extremely few Aes Sedai Rand trusts absolutely, enough to take her into see the DO. Why? Because she will kill him if he turns, or try to. That's not stated, but he knows it.

 

She and Nynaeve are involved in saving the world, just like many of the other things they do, they will not get sufficient credit for their involvement. They didn't fight the DO, but they helped bind him out of the pattern.

 

Yes we could have seen more of her, but she is not, and never has been a Green Ajah fighter, her goal was always to see Rand to his meeting in SG, so fighting in the trenches is not her style, but she can do it if she needs to.

 

Did we need more? She has some interactions with Rand, where she acknowledges working him, and he acknowledges that maybe he should have let her in a little bit more. They really made peace, not some weird subservience. Also, it was made pretty clear that Nyn still sees her as a bit of a rival, even though she respects Moiraine greatly. It's a mirror of Amys and Sorilea, just as Moiraine mirrors that with Cadsuane a bit.

 

I guess I would also like to have seen more, but when you bullet point her actions in this novel, it matches many of the earlier books for effect. I think we've only ever had 2 or 3 PoVs from her, and she was not particularly revealing in any of those, she's a mysterious woman.

 

I have a few complaints about the short shrifts of characters in this book, and though Moiraine along with Nynaeve, Min and Amys are my favourite female characters in the books, I feel that they all did fairly well in AMoL.

Edited by Viperswhip

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Then she is one of the extremely few Aes Sedai Rand trusts absolutely, enough to take her into see the DO. Why? Because she will kill him if he turns, or try to. That's not stated, but he knows it.

I'm pretty sure she says it straight out all the way back in EotW. "I'd destroy you myself before I let the shadow have you," or words to that effect

Edited by mgns

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Then she is one of the extremely few Aes Sedai Rand trusts absolutely, enough to take her into see the DO. Why? Because she will kill him if he turns, or try to. That's not stated, but he knows it.

I'm pretty sure she says it straight out all the way back in EotW. "I'd destroy you myself before I let the shadow have you," or words to that effect

Well, I meant recently heh. That quote is why he knows, and based on conversation in AMoL he knows she hasn't changed that much, so he's confidence level rises and he takes her along. If Moiraine had come back all lovey dovey, probably Alivia goes in there with him.

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The more I think about it the more ambivalent I feel about Egwene dying. I guess that's a good thing, in a way. But I'm honestly upset about it. Haven't been that over a book in a long while.

 

I would have liked to see Moghedien get clear, by the way. One forsaken should be left in the world, to work for the DO. It would be a fitting thing for the Spider to manage.

 

On that note, I was expecting at least one more character to be raised to the Chosen, not just Taim. Maybe Alviarin, she was more effective than most of the original Forsaken, after all.

 

(Too many threads going at once, I replied to an off topic post in the quality thread thinking I was in this thread oy vey, so I'm moving these comments here)

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Then she is one of the extremely few Aes Sedai Rand trusts absolutely, enough to take her into see the DO. Why? Because she will kill him if he turns, or try to. That's not stated, but he knows it.

I'm pretty sure she says it straight out all the way back in EotW. "I'd destroy you myself before I let the shadow have you," or words to that effect

Well, I meant recently heh. That quote is why he knows, and based on conversation in AMoL he knows she hasn't changed that much, so he's confidence level rises and he takes her along. If Moiraine had come back all lovey dovey, probably Alivia goes in there with him.

The Alivia thing was really anti-climactic. Pattern says she will help you die. And by help you die the pattern means giving you a pipe, some clothes and a trust-fund.

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In the past when the Dragon Soul went over the result was a draw. The DO has won many victories, just never a "complete one".

We've been told this by the author. But what we haven't been told is how the dragonsoul can serve the DO and it not be complete victory. Perhaps the problem lies in the fact that, in this age, the dragon faced the DO and resisted his efforts to cause him to despair and give in to what the DO wanted. So the question remains then. In what way can the dragonsoul serve the DO and not simply give in to the DO's struggle? And why would the dragonsoul do this? This get's metaphysical a bit, bit is not the dragonsoul the soul behind Rand and Lews Therin? Is he not the will, the core person? As Rand said, "I am him. But then he has always been me." At his core, the dragonsoul is the the person he has always been- devoted to fighting the DO, to saving people. His being raised, this time around, by Tam and with good friends, is what made his personality able to withstand the DO this time, and made him more humble. So his personality evolves from his experiences, at least as expressed in each iteration. So how can that same person in another age serve the DO? And why wouldn't that then mean victory? He's the dragonsoul and can give the DO whatever he wants, especially if he is evil and serves the DO, that will mean a remade world in the DO's image. I know there are no real answers and I just need to accept authorial fiat as it has been declared.

 

Obviously I'm just thinking about this too hard. Perhaps it's the mix of a Hindu rebirth concept, wherein souls are continuously reborn in order to better themselves and are judged according to Karmic standards, and then add a wheel so that the souls must be relatively the same when each age returns again that trips me up. Thus, If the dragonsoul has become more humble and happy by then end of the 3rd age (as Rand), at some point in a later age, he has to face enough experiences to get him back to being arrogant enough to be LTT by the 2nd age. But that seems pretty hopeless, honestly. All of what Rand had learned, all of what VoG was about, in the end is meaningless. You do get to try again....but it doesn't matter because by the time another age comes around, you're going to need to be different or- light help you- even serve the DO, (Ahh, If only RJ had left that little question about Ishamael's boasts that the dragonsoul had served him up in the air...)

 

There's an evil soul that's part of the balancing mechanism of the pattern

I wasn't referring to evil souls. I was speaking regarding her being a hero of the horn, which is a different thing- those heroes bound to the horn and that are called out to fight for the light. As Artur Hawkwing said, regardless who blows it, they fight for the light. Moridin/Ishamael doesn't.

 

But even evil aside, Verin is a hero.  While she may have done some evil she did it to stop a greater evil, might not be "good" in a Galad sense, but considering she directly lead to the death of how many evil channelers right before the Last Battle?  Helped clean the Tower and make sure it was relatively united to face the Shadow?  Her actions could have conceivably saved the world.

I can accept this for the most part, especially if she's viewed as a hero who had been spun out for that very purpose. Not all the heroes needed to be called by the Horn. Gaidal had already been born because he was going to be need for the new 4th age, as was Birgette, at the end. I just don't personally think her actions, in this age alone, given all that she had been required to do (which probably included multiple murders of many, which may have included children during the vileness- remember that this was a major BA op to kill the Dragon before he could act-, participation in interrogation and torture- the BA method of forcing a circle to torture a woman being a unique method they used-, etc) would have made her worthy to be bound to the horn. She did great good in the end, but her actions were motivated by self-interest as much as they were nobility.

 

In the end it doesn't matter. Just my personal opinion. As for Nakomi.....I don't know. I don't think shes the creator (which would be dumb). Since Avhienda was almost certainly in TAR, she may have been a hero, though how she got around the strictures like Birgitte did (or why she would care about the future of the aiel) are questions that remain. I suppose that if Verin really was a hero and had been spun out to do what she did, then when she dies she could have decided to act as her former self, Nakomi. That's not too bad an idea. One of the least lame, at the very least. Someone needs to get an answer from BS on her.

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i think i must of glossed over this one, but when does the reveal that if a male wields and leads a callandor circle he can then be forced into a circle? it seemed to have come up early in amol when rand+nyn+moir are discussing fighting the DO, but it was as if they've known this for some time? i thought the flaw was the lack of a buffer that prevented being burned out

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Well, there may be strictures, but almost certainly Birgitte was kept more on the straight and narrow by her stick up the ass boyfriend. If Nakomi was Verin or any other hero, maybe a Jenn Aeil one or something, then probably it was worth breaking a dusty old rule.

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i think i must of glossed over this one, but when does the reveal that if a male wields and leads a callandor circle he can then be forced into a circle? it seemed to have come up early in amol when rand+nyn+moir are discussing fighting the DO, but it was as if they've known this for some time? i thought the flaw was the lack of a buffer that prevented being burned out

Min told him, maybe even last book that it left him open to attack.

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i think i must of glossed over this one, but when does the reveal that if a male wields and leads a callandor circle he can then be forced into a circle? it seemed to have come up early in amol when rand+nyn+moir are discussing fighting the DO, but it was as if they've known this for some time? i thought the flaw was the lack of a buffer that prevented being burned out

Min told him, maybe even last book that it left him open to attack.

ah so in ToM then. guess my reread last month isn't so fresh anymore. so many details

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Agreed, this was one of my major problems with the book. The Dark One does not equal free will. How can he, when there is still free will while he can't touch the Pattern? How does his existence outside the Pattern grant people free will? It's definitely borrowed from Christian philosophy, and I suspect this is a pure Brandon addition. Partly because the first time killing the Dark One was mentioned was in TGS, and partly because of Rand's comment about his third question, which gives the impression that RJ didn't leave notes for the third question and Brandon felt the need to make something up to explain why Rand didn't just ask how to seal the Bore. But I could be wrong. Either way, I don't like it.

 

It's interesting-I didn't like this ending when it was described in the threads but found it more or less acceptable the way it was written. I read it as being that the DO's destruction actually removed people's capacity for evil. They weren't slaves as such, but human nature was irrevocably altered and screwed up when the DO was destroyed as opposed to merely being sealed away.

 

While I didn't mind it so much on its own terms I do agree with you that it sounds suspiciously like something Sanderson* came up with. It seems like we get a lot of new cosmology dumped on us. 

 

* I like Brandon Sanderson's books a lot, but for reasons I will expound upon later I did not think he was a good fit for finishing up this series.

 

 

you both do recall Moriane explaining the questions touching the Shadow could not be asked tot he Aielfinn/Eilfinn right?  so Rand couldn't ask anything to do with the Bore.

 

So instead of asking about the Bore....he asks about the Dark One? How does that make sense?

 

I don't think the woman at the end was Nakomi; I think it was Sorilea, and others have suggested Bair. But then, I hate the Nakomi concept completely, and would rather pretend that Brandon didn't go there. It's theories like Nakomi=Creator that will help me say goodbye to the WoT fandom with little regret.

 

I don't get this.  Maybe I am reading you wrong, but this and similar comments of yours are seemingly equivalent to someone stating that he'd abandon Golden Compass fandom because he learned that Phillip Pullman had inserted atheism into the series or that he would remove Harry Potter from his shelf because Rowling had sneakily inserted Christian mythology into the series.  Robert Jordan was a religious man.  He inserted CAPITAL LETTER INTERFERENCE from a Creator in the very first book.  Would you really abandon a beloved series because the fourteenth book confirmed that he actually belived such interference existed?  Who cares if a fantasy book affirms one's religious viewpoints or not?

 

FWIW, pretending that Nakomi is anything other than a projection of the creator is silly.  I don't want you to abandon WOT fandom.  But it is what it is. 

Edited by CTGryffindor

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Did anyone else wonder if Mat (the Other Great Captain) had been compromised like the other four by Graendal? I had a doubt when they were uncovering what had happened and Egwene (or was it Elayne? my husband is currently reading the book so I can't go back and check) said that Mat was safe because he always had his medallion on... Except when For[tuon]a took it from him while he slept that night in the gardens. And the three days when Elayne borrowed it in ToM. We don't know how long Graendal's game had been going on; she'd been pulling Ituralde's strings for a LONG time.

 

It turns out that wasn't the case, but I thought it was a distinct possibility for a couple hundred pages.

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Did anyone else wonder if Mat (the Other Great Captain) had been compromised like the other four by Graendal? I had a doubt when they were uncovering what had happened and Egwene (or was it Elayne? my husband is currently reading the book so I can't go back and check) said that Mat was safe because he always had his medallion on... Except when For[tuon]a took it from him while he slept that night in the gardens. And the three days when Elayne borrowed it in ToM. We don't know how long Graendal's game had been going on; she'd been pulling Ituralde's strings for a LONG time.

 

It turns out that wasn't the case, but I thought it was a distinct possibility for a couple hundred pages.

i had faith in mat the moment he showed up that he was going to kick ass

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He played fast and loose with the troops, I felt that it was in the spirit of his character. I have always wanted to see Dragons firing into a gateway and I'm glad to have finally seen it.

 

Also, Androl's fun with Portals was pretty entertaining too.

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Also, Androl's fun with Portals was pretty entertaining too.

 

I agree, although now I fear that a tactic I've written in my own [urban fantasy] novel will be seen as "derivative" [if I manage to get published] even though I wrote up this particular concept two years ago. 

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The Voice in TEotW was the DO, not the creator.

 

Perhaps, but if you are correct then Rand 'al Thor, in all his newfound yet ancient widsom, was mistaken at end of Memory of Light.  Right before Rand enters the cave, after all, he has a moment of indecision and wonders if he is acting at the right moment. CAPITAL LETTER PERSONA speaks to him, and is heard by Moraine as well, to say something to the effect that the "time is right, the moment is now."  Rand remarks internally that, unlike Moraine, he is not surprised by the voice because he heard it once before.  He then tells the voice "thank you," and moves forward into the Pit of Doom to take up the fight with the Dark One with a sense of relief that he is doing right. 

Edited by CTGryffindor

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The Voice in TEotW was the DO, not the creator.

 

I should also add that there is no textual reason to presume in TEOW that the CAPITAL LETTER SPEAKER is the Dark One.  The persona encourages Rand to move from the Gap to the proper battlefield and fight Ishy.  Rand interprets the voice as a benificent voice as well.  How could you suspect that it is the Dark One? 

Edited by CTGryffindor

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