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DRAGONMOUNT

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Prologue Through to the End of the Epilogue--Full Book Discussion.


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I genuinely thought that Mazrim Taim was demondred!

RJ himself shot that theory down. It was after that quote that I maintained that Dem was in Shara. To many subtle listings for Shara to not be important.

 

I always thought that Roderan was an obvious Red Herring like I maintained that there were to many references to Rands ressurection for it to actually be true. RJ was not one for the obvious.

 

I never really liked the Roedran theory either.  It was just very hard to argue against because it was really one of the last places Demandred could have been.

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I don't know. I didn't like or dislike Roedran, I'm actually surprised Demandred wasn't Roedran. But my issue wasn't that I thought Demandred's armies were there. That was ludicrous the moment you looked at Murandy's military might, even it's potential was nothing really. Not to mention Demandred wouldn't need to use the Band as a threat to push the other nobles to back him.

 

But I did think Murandy was Demandred's, because I figured Demandred for the plans within plans type. I figured he compelled Roedran and controlled Murandy on top of Shara, using it as either a staging point where he could use gateways to bring his troops into the center of Rand Land, or even just as a decoy to keep everyone's attention (Which happened anyway, at least for Rand)

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Unfortunately a single chapter of good reading doesn't make up for everything else. There were major prophecies that were not fullfilled, and major plot points that were forgotten or dismissed entirely. Overall, a really poor job by Brandon. He really should get laid into for this one because despite a couple emotional scenes done properly, he had 3 books to write this thing and there is no way this should have been so messy, incomplete, and poorly thought out.

 

Lots more I could say, but I dont want to cross into the quality thread.  Just wanted to give me overall impression of the book after its all sunk in for a couple days now.

 

I enjoyed the last 2 books, but agree with much of what you said about this one.  However, for this book it is pretty unfair to lay it on Brandon.  I believe, much more so than the last 2, this book is on RJ.  Even if he were alive I do not think he would have resolved much more than we got.  We would have eventually gotten outriggers, but not much more, if anything, in AMOL.

 

Also, the whole "battle" with the DO was as corny as Veins of Gold,  better writing could not have saved it.  That is entirely on RJ.

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Unfortunately a single chapter of good reading doesn't make up for everything else. There were major prophecies that were not fullfilled, and major plot points that were forgotten or dismissed entirely. Overall, a really poor job by Brandon. He really should get laid into for this one because despite a couple emotional scenes done properly, he had 3 books to write this thing and there is no way this should have been so messy, incomplete, and poorly thought out.

 

Lots more I could say, but I dont want to cross into the quality thread.  Just wanted to give me overall impression of the book after its all sunk in for a couple days now.

 

I enjoyed the last 2 books, but agree with much of what you said about this one.  However, for this book it is pretty unfair to lay it on Brandon.  I believe, much more so than the last 2, this book is on RJ.  Even if he were alive I do not think he would have resolved much more than we got.  We would have eventually gotten outriggers, but not much more, if anything, in AMOL.

 

Also, the whole "battle" with the DO was as corny as Veins of Gold,  better writing could not have saved it.  That is entirely on RJ.

 

It's hard to say until we see what parts RJ wrote and what Brandon wrote, but I think that much of this book is on Brandon.  The battle with the DO was corny - you're right, and I think that a lot of that is on RJ, but I dont know if anyone expected something vastly different.  We all kind of knew that it was going to come down to something like that.  I didn't have a problem with it really as much as I had a problem with the logical holes in Rand's conclusions, and that was purely a PoV issue.

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Anyone else find it ironic that the parts that most people on this thread hate the most are the parts written by RJ? Just admit that your feelings are hurt because it didn't go the way you dreamed it.

 

I thought it was a beautiful ending. It touched me and has me questioning parts if my life that I need to "let go." RJ was a true master.

 

 

And oh, DAMN Rand is a BOSS. Totally went Beastmode there at the end.

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Anyone else find it ironic that the parts that most people on this thread hate the most are the parts written by RJ? Just admit that your feelings are hurt because it didn't go the way you dreamed it.

 

I thought it was a beautiful ending. It touched me and has me questioning parts if my life that I need to "let go." RJ was a true master.

 

 

And oh, DAMN Rand is a BOSS. Totally went Beastmode there at the end.

 

lol do you even have any idea which parts were written by RJ?

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Anyone else find it ironic that the parts that most people on this thread hate the most are the parts written by RJ? Just admit that your feelings are hurt because it didn't go the way you dreamed it.

 

I thought it was a beautiful ending. It touched me and has me questioning parts if my life that I need to "let go." RJ was a true master.

 

 

And oh, DAMN Rand is a BOSS. Totally went Beastmode there at the end.

lol do you even have any idea which parts were written by RJ?

Um...uh...lets seee....uh....maybe the end? You know, the part that BOTH Harriet and Brandon have been stating for FIVE years that RJ wrote and wanted relatively untouched???

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I liked it. Maybe because all the hardcores in here were so blah about, lowered my expectations a bit.

 

Things I liked:

 

Roedran dropping in like a drunken uncle in the middle of a Thanksgiving dinner when all the fights have started.

Faile having something to do, and her thinking on the funny ironies of life re: her mission.

Perrin taking Gaul with him to TAR. Gaul has always bordered on hilariously personalitiy-less, but it was fun to see him actually do something exciting and unexpected.

Gawyn's death. Fitting death for the biggest idiot in the entire series.

The Ogiers battles. Awesome, awesome, awesome. Why did Loial have to vanish for like five books again?

Mat's command posts, although he took his sweet time setting up that up.

Demondred was awesome, and what the Forsaken should have been all along.

Lan's defeat of him "surrender after you die" moment was the highlight of the entire book. Although I didn't buy that Demo had no idea who he was.

Rand's entire battle of wills/worlds was very creative and very well done. I don't understand the philosophical complaints. It entirely makes sense in the cosmology of the WOT world.

Also Callonder's purpose was neat and not many peope called that out.

Min gaining a purpose post-Rand.

I personally loved the body switch.

 

Things I didn't like:

The Band of the Red Hand being split up and not really mattering a whole lot after Caemlyn.

Perrin being asleep for the ENTIRE LAST BATTLE.

Egwene's death. Happened way too fast and I didn't find the scene clear or well written.

TUON CALLING PEOPLE BY HER STUPID MADE UP NAMES IN HER HEAD. I never flat out hated the girl. Now I do. Knoti or some crap. Ugh.

Alanna popping up out of no where (what was the point of Verin's letter to her?)

Moriane and Nyneave being spectators for 99% of the last battle. Sure, their key moment mattered and they did more in the previous 13 books than most characters... but still. They felt like afterthoughts.

Slayer and Fain finally dead. If it was going to be that pointless it should have happened ages ago.

The battles became a bit repetative - one reason I enjoyed the unique storylines like Olyver and Rand.

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I always thought that Roderan was an obvious Red Herring like I maintained that there were to many references to Rands ressurection for it to actually be true. RJ was not one for the obvious.

I never really had a solid guess in the Demy department either way. Curious about your reasoning here however. The hints for Roedran were so subtle don't see how he could have been an effective red herring.

 

As for Shara what was the evidence that led you there? Or was it just more of a gut feeling?

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Orsarol, you have a point that I think is largely valid. (Even Mark admits that several things he didn't like most likely come from RJ).

 

But you're off on two points. One, the insulting really doesn't help or contribute in any meaningful way. And Two. Yes, "The Ending" Which could, in theory, be half of the last book, or maybe only the Epilogue or maybe only the Rand Portion of the Epilogue. I hope we find out in detail now that it's all over with, but we don't know how much of "The Ending" was pure RJ, how much as RJ outline with BS filling in details and how much was pure BS because RJ left nothing on certain pieces of the story beyond basics of "X dies, Y lives, etc"

 

If you want to discuss your opinion on the actual plot being solid, go for it (I don't find VoG or the battle cheesy at all, personally). But stick to the facts or to your opinions, don't name call and assume things that aren't for sure.

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The ending is not even remotely close to "half the last book". All Orsarol does is show a luck of understanding of how the process went and what was actually said. The insults were absurd enough that they don't even need a response.

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Orsarol, you have a point that I think is largely valid. (Even Mark admits that several things he didn't like most likely come from RJ).But you're off on two points. One, the insulting really doesn't help or contribute in any meaningful way. And Two. Yes, "The Ending" Which could, in theory, be half of the last book, or maybe only the Epilogue or maybe only the Rand Portion of the Epilogue. I hope we find out in detail now that it's all over with, but we don't know how much of "The Ending" was pure RJ, how much as RJ outline with BS filling in details and how much was pure BS because RJ left nothing on certain pieces of the story beyond basics of "X dies, Y lives, etc"If you want to discuss your opinion on the actual plot being solid, go for it (I don't find VoG or the battle cheesy at all, personally). But stick to the facts or to your opinions, don't name call and assume things that aren't for sure.

I understand what you are saying. He did start it with his condescending tone. But I think there is a general tendency for this forum to be overly critical of BS. Therefore people are having struggles reconciling that even RJ couldnt please them so we "wait for confirmation of who wrote what." Well, its clear RJ wrote the entire last few chapters. It had his feel. Plus its been confirmed MANY times prior. Well, now that we have become a forum that argues the minutiae, we have also subjected the great RJ to our ridiculous scrutiny and found him wanting.

 

We need to "let go" and accept that it was HIS story, not ours. No matter how much it has touched our lives.

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Well, its clear RJ wrote the entire last few chapters. It had his feel. Plus its been confirmed MANY times prior. Well, now that we have become a forum that argues the minutiae, we have also subjected the great RJ to our ridiculous scrutiny and found him wanting.

 

Again all you do is show a faulty understanding of the process and it has never ever been confirmed that RJ wrote the "entire last few chapters". You either misunderstood what was reported or are flat out making things up.

 

Finally Iif you think RJ hasn't faced heavy criticism and scrutiny on these boards, particularly post CoT you truly have not spent much time here. There were non stop major flame wars over RJ "losing the series". The difference being the literary quality never dropped during that time. Of course the problems will be called out cosmsistently when you have the unpolished prose and numerous mistakes of the last two books. Mistakes Team Jordan have readily admitted I might add.

Edited by Suttree
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The ending is not even remotely close to "half the last book". All Orsarol does is show a luck of understanding of how the process went and what was actually said. The insults were absurd enough that they don't even need a response.

So you mean to tell me that you do not believe that RJ wrote Rand vs DO? That is the end that I refer to and that is the end that has been the most frustrating to many on this board.

 

And yes, I think Rand v DO was perfect. Brandon wouldn't have dared touch that or the epilogue. Distinctly RJ whether you like it or not.

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Well, its clear RJ wrote the entire last few chapters. It had his feel. Plus its been confirmed MANY times prior. Well, now that we have become a forum that argues the minutiae, we have also subjected the great RJ to our ridiculous scrutiny and found him wanting.

 

Again all you do is show a faulty understanding of the process and it has never ever been confirmed that RJ wrote the "entire last few chapters". You either misunderstood what was reported or are flat out making things up.

 

Finally Iif you think RJ hasn't faced heavy criticism and scrutiny on these boards, particularly post CoT you truly have not spent much time here.

Sure. Whatever you say.

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The only thing that really bothered me about the RJ ending in the epilogue was how very un-sad everyone was regarding Rand.  Mat especially.  And the three girls could have at least shown some concern.  Other than that, it's hard to criticize until we know more about what was left in the notes and what RJ actually wrote.  I suspect that the epilogue and the chapter with the beam of light was the only part RJ wrote himself entirely.

 

The part that really starts to scream RJ to me begins with Rand stumbling out of the cave carrying Moridin.

 

I really liked the ending; it definitely ended the book with a smile and some levity.  It felt great to see Rand finally get a happy ending.  However....I think it may have been a more emotionally satisfying ending for Rand to have died and stayed dead.

Edited by Mark D
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The ending is not even remotely close to "half the last book". All Orsarol does is show a luck of understanding of how the process went and what was actually said. The insults were absurd enough that they don't even need a response.

So you mean to tell me that you do not believe that RJ wrote Rand vs DO? That is the end that I refer to and that is the end that has been the most frustrating to many on this board.

 

And yes, I think Rand v DO was perfect. Brandon wouldn't have dared touch that or the epilogue. Distinctly RJ whether you like it or not.

 

RJ almost certainly did not write all of the Rand vs DO scenes.  Possibly none of them.

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Alright, this line of thought has gone far enough in this thread. If you wish to continue this debate, go to the Quality discussion thread. Any further posts on this topic shall be removed from this thread. 

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Darn, had changed my blank post into a response to Mark and it goes poof, annoying. Oh well.

 

Mark, I'm actually with you 100% on the Sadness at the funeral. That we got nothing from Mat and Perrin bugs me immensely. With the girls, Elayne should just know she needs to fake being sad for the subterfuge. While Min and Aviendha may be in shock, there's still the issue that physically, the man they love is lying on a pyre being burned. Yeah his soul, the real him is still alive and you get that, but even the least selfish of us do still form physical attatchments as well as emotional. I know that if I was watching my wife's funeral, even if I knew 100% that her mind is now in a different body that will come back to me, I'm still going to be having issues.

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I would have liked to see an epilogue after that epilogue , one after people started rebuilding the world . A kind of counterpart to "Dragounmount" in The Eye of the World ,without I feel as the book lack closure .

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I guess the slight problem I have with Rand surviving the way he did was that in the end...all things considered...he really just had to undergo some hardships and now gets to live a totally normal life.  So many other people sacrificed so much more than Rand yet the entire story was about how Rand was the persecuted one and Rand had the weight of the world on his shoulders.  In the end, he just had a tough 24 months.  How many others, like Egwene, sacrificed so much more for the cause?

 

The last bit with Rand was written beautifully, but I feel like a more appropriate ending to the story would have been with Rand dying and a little hint that he will ride again on the winds of time or a hint that he lives on in TAR.

Edited by Mark D
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I guess the slight problem I have with Rand surviving the way he did was that in the end...all things considered...he really just had to undergo some hardships and now gets to live a totally normal life. So many other people sacrificed so much more than Rand yet the entire story was about how Rand was the persecuted one and Rand had the weight of the world on his shoulders. In the end, he just had a tough 24 months. How many others, like Egwene, sacrificed so much more for the cause?

None of them did what they did knowing that they were going to die. None except one.

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I guess the slight problem I have with Rand surviving the way he did was that in the end...all things considered...he really just had to undergo some hardships and now gets to live a totally normal life. So many other people sacrificed so much more than Rand yet the entire story was about how Rand was the persecuted one and Rand had the weight of the world on his shoulders. In the end, he just had a tough 24 months. How many others, like Egwene, sacrificed so much more for the cause?

None of them did what they did knowing that they were going to die. None except one.

 

Ya thats a good point.  It still feels like it undermines the whole "he has to bear the burden of the world on his shoulders" theme with him escaping totally unharmed though.  I guess its all part of the original design though as RJ said he had the original scene in mind since the beginning 25 years ago.

 

Not to mention its a bit of a sham that now the world thinks the Dragon sacrificed everything to save the world when in reality he got away clean as a whistle.

Edited by Mark D
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Well in the last age everyone decided that the Dragon screwed everything up so it closes the circle that in the third age everyone gives credit to the Dragon for saving the world. Both are not exactly true.

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