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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Luckers

Prologue Through to the End of the Epilogue--Full Book Discussion.

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Two questions still burn deeply in my mind, sorry if these have already been answered before:

 

How is the DO "not the enemy"???? Rand decides to lock him up as opposed to eliminating him?

 

and also, how is Elayne Turned when the DO is apparently "killed"? How is it that a person can turn to the shadow if the shadow no longer even exists?!

 

She was "turned" in the other direction by the DO not existing. And that's just as bad. According to Rand (well Sanderson/Jordan).

 

Exactly. And for all the language, you aren't exactly turned to the Shadow. Well, kind of, but listen. Turning doesn't just make you all buddy-buddy with the Dark One, it twists every good element inside you and eliminates it, turning everything dark. What happened to Elayne in Rand's alternate timeline is that he took every evil element inside her and turned it Light, effectively twisting her personality in the same way.

 

I don't know if evil is the best word, as the word evil connotes images of murder babies and all kinds of horrible things. Everybody is a different shade of gray (I've heard there are at least 50). Turning eliminates the white, turning their soul all black. What Rand did in his mirror world was eliminate the black, turning them entirely white. You take out all the complexity, change everybody's personalities (including those of the people you have come to love so that they're now different people). People, when faced with the same choice, will probably react the same way, every time. There's no weighing decisions, or diversity of choices. 

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Two questions still burn deeply in my mind, sorry if these have already been answered before:

 

How is the DO "not the enemy"???? Rand decides to lock him up as opposed to eliminating him?

 

and also, how is Elayne Turned when the DO is apparently "killed"? How is it that a person can turn to the shadow if the shadow no longer even exists?!

 

She was "turned" in the other direction by the DO not existing. And that's just as bad. According to Rand (well Sanderson/Jordan).

 

Exactly. And for all the language, you aren't exactly turned to the Shadow. Well, kind of, but listen. Turning doesn't just make you all buddy-buddy with the Dark One, it twists every good element inside you and eliminates it, turning everything dark. What happened to Elayne in Rand's alternate timeline is that he took every evil element inside her and turned it Light, effectively twisting her personality in the same way.

 

I don't know if evil is the best word, as the word evil connotes images of murder babies and all kinds of horrible things. Everybody is a different shade of gray (I've heard there are at least 50). Turning eliminates the white, turning their soul all black. What Rand did in his mirror world was eliminate the black, turning them entirely white. You take out all the complexity, change everybody's personalities (including those of the people you have come to love so that they're now different people). People, when faced with the same choice, will probably react the same way, every time. There's no weighing decisions, or diversity of choices. 

Well then, if Turning someone to the light would hypothetically change their personality, wouldn't it be worth it to rid the world of the DO? Not just lock him up, but destroy him? Saving the world from all future strife and completely eliminating evil and immorality could possibly be worth people's personalities, so that no evils would ever befall the world again. However, destroying the DO  would make time branch off from the normal turnings of the wheel and create an entirely new timeline where the DO is not released from his prison every time the 2nd Age rolls around.

 

Or maybe would this be sidetracking from the future and  instead affect the wheel itself? Perhaps destroy it entirely? Create a new wheel? Just some ideas

Edited by The_Underage_Asha'man

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where the hell did 'Shaisam'(which I can't help but say as Shazzam! like Beyonce says in the last Austin Powers movie) come frm as a name, did it just get established or have I missed in ToM?

as far as I can tell it comes out of nowhere

I could not help noticing that if you take Shaitan, and go back one letter in the alphabet with the 5th and 7th letters you get Shaisam.

 

Good catch about the similarities between the words, especially the root, 'shai'. I'm wondering if this is another allusion.

 

Someone on another part of the forums pointed out that Shai is 'Dark' in the Old Tongue, and that Sam is 'Destroyer'. Kind of like SHAIdar Haran. With apparently directly translates to Dark Hand, but is known as Hand of the Dark.

 

So Dark Destroyer, Destroyer of the Dark. One of those things.

 

Shadow Destroyer. Probably a reference to the evil of Shadar Logoth, which was designed to combat the Shadow.

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Just read the entire book in one sitting so I'm a bit disoriented and unclear on some stuff towards the end but.

 

When Rand comes out of the cave carrying Moridin - is that still Rand as Rand, or Rand as Moridin?

 

I think it's deliberately unclear.

 

After re-reading that scene, I think it was Moridin (Rand) carrying the body of Rand (Moridin's soul). And I say that because it talked about how he had trouble seeing and the old woman said it was the right thing to do because she knew that he could burn his true body (Rands body) and go away into hiding. 

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Rand's soul and Moridin's soul have not been completely separate for some time now. So in a way, it doesn't matter.

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Two questions still burn deeply in my mind, sorry if these have already been answered before:

 

How is the DO "not the enemy"???? Rand decides to lock him up as opposed to eliminating him?

 

and also, how is Elayne Turned when the DO is apparently "killed"? How is it that a person can turn to the shadow if the shadow no longer even exists?!

 

She was "turned" in the other direction by the DO not existing. And that's just as bad. According to Rand (well Sanderson/Jordan).

 

Exactly. And for all the language, you aren't exactly turned to the Shadow. Well, kind of, but listen. Turning doesn't just make you all buddy-buddy with the Dark One, it twists every good element inside you and eliminates it, turning everything dark. What happened to Elayne in Rand's alternate timeline is that he took every evil element inside her and turned it Light, effectively twisting her personality in the same way.

 

I don't know if evil is the best word, as the word evil connotes images of murder babies and all kinds of horrible things. Everybody is a different shade of gray (I've heard there are at least 50). Turning eliminates the white, turning their soul all black. What Rand did in his mirror world was eliminate the black, turning them entirely white. You take out all the complexity, change everybody's personalities (including those of the people you have come to love so that they're now different people). People, when faced with the same choice, will probably react the same way, every time. There's no weighing decisions, or diversity of choices. 

Well then, if Turning someone to the light would hypothetically change their personality, wouldn't it be worth it to rid the world of the DO? Not just lock him up, but destroy him? Saving the world from all future strife and completely eliminating evil and immorality could possibly be worth people's personalities, so that no evils would ever befall the world again. However, destroying the DO  would make time branch off from the normal turnings of the wheel and create an entirely new timeline where the DO is not released from his prison every time the 2nd Age rolls around.

 

Or maybe would this be sidetracking from the future and  instead affect the wheel itself? Perhaps destroy it entirely? Create a new wheel? Just some ideas

 

Galad should have been the Dragon. He would have killed the DO and been done with it, personal cost be damned. It would have been interesting :p

 

Of course, I wouldn't have seen this result to a death of the DO. But it's not MY story :) (I would have made killing the DO possible, but assumed a new one is formed at some point by someone trying to end all suffering by sealing it away from the Pattern, creating the AoL and DO at the same time).

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