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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Luckers

Prologue Through to the End of the Epilogue--Full Book Discussion.

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I just realized this (I dont know how I missed it) and I was wondering if anyone had come up with an answer or if I missed it in the book. What happened to the Tinkers song??? Did they ever find it???

 

No, and they never will.

 

 

I assumed that it was implied that they would find it since both since both Rand and the Orgier know it now. Sure you could argue that the Orgier even with their long memories still might not know the historical implications of the song and be able to connect that with the the Tinkers search for their song. Rand knows the historical use of the song from his LTT memories which means that he can confirm that it was the same song that was sung in his Rhuidean memories the same memories in which he saw the Tinkers split from the Aiel in search for the song.  

 

So either Rand hates Tinkers and is going to let them search forever or he dies/gets amnesia before he can let them know.

Also im pretty sure the song that Loial sings is the same song that Rand sings it is different than the tree song but related

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I decided to ask BS the Nakomi question in a slightly different way on twitter.

 

 

Me:

did RJ say that Nakomi should be included? You said she was "deep in RJ's notes" but wondering if it was up in the air?

 

 

BS:

>

 I said something deep in the notes made me include her. I have not said if she herself was in the notes or not.

 

So that sounds like BS basically invented the character based on the notes. Obviously this raises the follow-up question of what part of the notes, but I know he won't answer that one. Still... it frames the Nakomi question a little better. FWIW I don't subscribe to the Verin theory. 

 

It definitely pays to ask about stuff from different angles, though.

 

ugh why doesn't he just friggin spill the beans

 

jeebus

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I decided to ask BS the Nakomi question in a slightly different way on twitter.

 

 

Me:

did RJ say that Nakomi should be included? You said she was "deep in RJ's notes" but wondering if it was up in the air?

 

 

BS:

>

 I said something deep in the notes made me include her. I have not said if she herself was in the notes or not.

 

So that sounds like BS basically invented the character based on the notes. Obviously this raises the follow-up question of what part of the notes, but I know he won't answer that one. Still... it frames the Nakomi question a little better. FWIW I don't subscribe to the Verin theory. 

 

It definitely pays to ask about stuff from different angles, though.

That certainly changes things.

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I just realized this (I dont know how I missed it) and I was wondering if anyone had come up with an answer or if I missed it in the book. What happened to the Tinkers song??? Did they ever find it???

 

No, and they never will.

 

 

>I assumed that it was implied that they would find it since both since both Rand and the Orgier know it now. Sure you could argue that the Orgier even with their long memories still might not know the historical implications of the song and be able to connect that with the the Tinkers search for their song. Rand knows the historical use of the song from his LTT memories which means that he can confirm that it was the same song that was sung in his Rhuidean memories the same memories in which he saw the Tinkers split from the Aiel in search for the song.  

 

So either Rand hates Tinkers and is going to let them search forever or he dies/gets amnesia before he can let them know.

Also im pretty sure the song that Loial sings is the same song that Rand sings it is different than the tree song but related

 

 

In TSR when we see the 'Songs of Growing' in action, it is the AIel and the Ogier singing at the same time with the Nym dancing to the song.  It is very possible that what we saw Rand singing in Ebou Dar is the Aiel part and what Loial sung during the battle was the Ogier part, and if they ever sang it at the same time we'd see 'The Song'.

 

Some say that the Tinker's are mistaken because there wasn't just one song, but I think that what the Tinkers are really remembering is the act of singing the songs of growing.

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Yeah you are pretty much right Dreadlord, the song is a mystification of the songs, you should read that quote that Terez posted. RJ confirms that there is more than one song but the Tinkers will never find it. That doesn't make much sense to me because Rand has both Rhuidean and LTT memories and can connect the two but maybe i should take it to a different thread.

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AMoL

She's ridden all breeds. In those minutes on the battlefield, she would have put Bela up against the Tairen best

I just can't even...full on cringe.

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I decided to ask BS the Nakomi question in a slightly different way on twitter.

 

 

Me:

did RJ say that Nakomi should be included? You said she was "deep in RJ's notes" but wondering if it was up in the air?

 

 

BS:

&gt

;

 I said something deep in the notes made me include her. I have not said if she herself was in the notes or not.

lockquote>

 

So that sounds like BS basically invented the character based on the notes. Obviously this raises the follow-up question of what part of the notes, but I know he won't answer that one. Still... it frames the Nakomi question a little better. FWIW I don't subscribe to the Verin theory. 

 

It definitely pays to ask about stuff from different angles, though.

That certainly changes things.

 

How does it change things?

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Yeah you are pretty much right Dreadlord, the song is a mystification of the songs, you should read that quote that Terez posted. RJ confirms that there is more than one song but the Tinkers will never find it. That doesn't make much sense to me because Rand has both Rhuidean and LTT memories and can connect the two but maybe i should take it to a different thread.

 

Well, what Brandon was trying to say is that even if they heard a growing song, they wouldn't recognize it. Like Loial said in TEOTW:

 

 

"The Traveling People live for their songs," Loial said. "For all songs, for that matter. For the search for them, at least. I met some Tuatha'an a few years back, and they wanted to learn the songs we sing to trees. Actually, the trees won't listen to very many anymore, and so not many Ogier learn the songs. I have a scrap of that Talent, so Elder Arent insisted I learn. I taught the Tuatha'an what they could learn, but the trees never listen to humans. For the Traveling People they were only songs, and just as well received for that, since none was the song they seek. That's what they call the leader of each band, the Seeker. They come to Stedding Shangtai, sometimes. Few humans do."

 

 

And I'm sure that Rand and the Ogier were both singing growing songs. The Nym gave those songs more power, but I doubt the songs are different in nature.

Edited by Terez

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Yeah you are pretty much right Dreadlord, the song is a mystification of the songs, you should read that quote that Terez posted. RJ confirms that there is more than one song but the Tinkers will never find it. That doesn't make much sense to me because Rand has both Rhuidean and LTT memories and can connect the two but maybe i should take it to a different thread.

 

Well, what Brandon was trying to say is that even if they heard a growing song, they wouldn't recognize it. Like Loial said in TEOTW:

 

 

>"The Traveling People live for their songs," Loial said. "For all songs, for that matter. For the search for them, at least. I met some Tuatha'an a few years back, and they wanted to learn the songs we sing to trees. Actually, the trees won't listen to very many anymore, and so not many Ogier learn the songs. I have a scrap of that Talent, so Elder Arent insisted I learn. I taught the Tuatha'an what they could learn, but the trees never listen to humans. For the Traveling People they were only songs, and just as well received for that, since none was the song they seek. That's what they call the leader of each band, the Seeker. They come to Stedding Shangtai, sometimes. Few humans do."

 

 

And I'm sure that Rand and the Ogier were both singing growing songs. The Nym gave those songs more power, but I doubt the songs are different in nature.

 

I completely agree with all of this. I just think that Rand with the knowledge that he has would know that the tinkers were searching for the growing songs and then let them know that was the song they were seeking.

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I am losing track of where I say stuff. Somewhere (apparently not here) I made the point that they wouldn't necessarily have been happy to learn about their history, any more than the Aiel were. The Voice seems to have been a predominantly Aiel talent, and the Tinkers have bred it out. Oh well. Time without end.

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I am losing track of where I say stuff. Somewhere (apparently not here) I made the point that they wouldn't necessarily have been happy to learn about their history, any more than the Aiel were. The Voice seems to have been a predominantly Aiel talent, and the Tinkers have bred it out. Oh well. Time without end.

 

For the idea of breeding it out, wouldn't that break one of the long-standing rules of the series that the old blood breeds true?  We're hit over the head a number of times with this type of thing concerning the Two Rivers after all.

Edited by dreadlord

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I am losing track of where I say stuff. Somewhere (apparently not here) I made the point that they wouldn't necessarily have been happy to learn about their history, any more than the Aiel were. The Voice seems to have been a predominantly Aiel talent, and the Tinkers have bred it out. Oh well. Time without end.

 

For the idea of breeding it out, wouldn't that break one of the long-standing rules of the series that the old blood breeds true?  We're hit over the head a number of times but this type of thing concerning the Two Rivers after all.

 

The Two Rivers and the Aiel were all inbred, to tell the truth.

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I am losing track of where I say stuff. Somewhere (apparently not here) I made the point that they wouldn't necessarily have been happy to learn about their history, any more than the Aiel were. The Voice seems to have been a predominantly Aiel talent, and the Tinkers have bred it out. Oh well. Time without end.

 

For the idea of breeding it out, wouldn't that break one of the long-standing rules of the series that the old blood breeds true?  We're hit over the head a number of times with this type of thing concerning the Two Rivers after all.

Two rivers is a pretty stagnant population(until just recently), same with the Aiel in the waste. There isn't a lot of new blood coming in or out. Tinkers are always travelling so it makes sense that they lost a significant degree of their old blood as they traveled and bred with new populations over a period of several thousand years. 

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You know that would be a very interesting discussion if it had ever been included in any part of the story. The fact that Rand has memories from Rhuidean and from LTT, how those 2 worlds collide.

 

Knowing what he knows in grand fashion he could tell alot of things to the Aiel and everyone.

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She is Padra, daughter of the Dragon Reborn and a Maiden. She and her three siblings, brothers Alarch and Janduin and sister Marinna, hold the One Power constantly and channeled since early childhood.5 Alarch has his looks from his wetlander side and has dark hair

 

This is what Aviendha seeing during her Rhuidean visit. Notice that her daughter has dark hair.... I think this shows that Rand does not actually abandon Elayne, Aviendha or Min or his kids.. This vision might not hold true now, but it comes really close to the future where Rand actually wins and the Dragon Peace is enacted. The only thing different in this future arc probably would be the Aiel future....

 

So I think Rand will roam around a bit but will constantly be in touch with his 3 lovers and his children.

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I was extremely irritated by the lord from Kandor and the Asha'man being explicitly called out for being gay. I saw it as serving a fan service and being PC.

 

For most of the series, the subject was touched up, but was subtle. It became obvious with the one Sea Folk gal and the Cairhien noblewoman, but with the two examples in aMoL it was like being bashed over the head with a frying pan.

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For most of the series, the subject was touched up, but was subtle.

 

This was about as subtle as it's ever been.

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for me only the aftermath was a letdown...only couple of page ...and it lacked emotions.

 

Rand seals the Dark One in his prison at high noon.  THAT NIGHT he is burned on a pyre and the story literally ends.  Right there.  Finished.

 

I guess we're supposed to fill in the pieces ourselves and that's fair enough but A LITTLE bit more exposition wouldn't be out of place considering some of us have waited 20 plus years to see how the happy endings play out.  Even Harry Potter had a small scene 20 years later right?  I mean come on, throw us a bone here.  Would it have been the end of the world to give us a paragraph on Lan and Nynaeve's kids playing in Malkier or Perrin and Faile in Saldaea or Manetheren etc?  

 

So much darkness, so much death, so much blood,so much despair, so much sacrifice in this book.  A bit of sunshine and happiness could have been a nice balance to gently let us down from the sheer adrenaline of the first oh . . . EIGHT HUNDRED NINETY PAGES!!!!!!   LoL

 

I hate what Rowling did at the end of Harry Potter, and am very happy that RJ didn't do that here. There are enough hints throughout A Memory of Light that you can imagine most of it yourself. 

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I loved the ambiguity of the ending, but I do think it could have been done in such a way that didn't drive fans crazy. That would have been in the set-up, though, and the set-up we were given seemed crammed in almost as an afterthought. It didn't have the subtle hints that have always generated fan discussion.

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Demandred is the lord of Shara, an entire country with hundreds of channelers. It's easy bro . . .

 

Hmm, and yet they have no problem with fighting on the same side as Trollocs, I wonder? 

 

Another sticking point that is only very casually and circumferentially explained. 

 

Apparently the Sharans have their own prophecies surrounding Demandred.

 

Also the country may very well just be intrinsically evil with the leadership already committed to serving the Sharans.

 

The rank and file hate the Shadowspawn but that society isn't very big on individual thought and freedom of expression.

 

Think Iran and North Korea.  The PEOPLE might not want to go to war with large hulking animal headed things but no one is going to pipe up about it.

 

At least that's how I read it . . .

 

I'm sure the Sharans are wondering how the Randland forces could fight alongside monsters like the Ogier. They're described as pretty ferocious in this book. 

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I loved the ambiguity of the ending, but I do think it could have been done in such a way that didn't drive fans crazy. That would have been in the set-up, though, and the set-up we were given seemed crammed in almost as an afterthought. It didn't have the subtle hints that have always generated fan discussion.

Totally agree. I'm very satisfied by the ending. Now if some of the people here dedicate themselves to unoffical fanfics...

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I didn't want to see a "many years later" ending like HP, rather just the very start of the clean up, to see if the peace, among other things, even has a shot at holding past the end.  Also I really wanted to see Tuon get it from Hawkwing.  The guy would have been... unamused by the Seanchan and their corruption of his empire, particularly since he would be aware all his anti-Aes Sedai sentiment was tricked upon him by the shadow.

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well, got through it, and loved it.  There were of course, bits that flashed past before you really had a handle on what had occurred, there were bits that took a while to come to the boil ... not surprising, given that the entire sentiment behind the forces of the Light's preparation for the Last Battle was one of "we aren't ready, and there's no time left".

 

Some of the bits of it didn't quite ring true to what the anoraks will ever describe as the saga's Greatest Bits, but it gave closure to the story for mine, and most fittingly too.

 

Prophesies were fulfilled nicely ... the Asha'man (at least the survivors) were given a touching sense of humanity in their realisation that they were no longer stigmatised ... the Forces of the Light suffered credible casualties ... and the whole premise of the series - that the Dragon would ultimately set right that which had gone so wrong in the original Prologue, so many years ago - came to pass.

 

Whilst many will continue to be critical of how Brandon wrote their "pet" characters, or how the Last Battle included elements which hadn't been seen in the series before, A Memory Of Light - at least for me - was a credible, readable, and ultimately cherishable conclusion to arguably the greatest Fantasy saga ever embarked upon.

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