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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Prologue Through to the End of the Epilogue--Full Book Discussion.


Luckers
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Verin being a super spy, sneaky hero with a lot more familiarity with current events, since she herself had set some of them in motion? Yes, it's likely she would know more or have more guesses than other heroes. Birgitte doesn't seem to know shit about the Prophecy of the Dragon, Verin may have had a hand in writing it for all we know (in one of her old forms).

 

Birgitte probably thinks something's up because Rand hadn't popped back into TAR, maybe all the heroes have parties up there or something. If they are not allowed to interact with non heroes, one could assume they hang out with each other.

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So I occasionally pull strong posts from TL over just to help the conversation move along. We have already touched on the Nakomi/Tar connection. Those who know me have seen me talk about my admiration for how thorough Dom is. Here is some speculation on Nakomi.

 

Dom

We know the Wheel is capable of "special miracles" too. It's how RJ explained the TGH vision in the sky.

 

It's perfectly possible there's a hidden "special nudger" corrective mechanism the Wheel sent out, and that's Nakomi.

 

In Greeek myth, she would be the Moira, which inspired a lot Moiraine's character.

 

Maybe RJ had his three Moira in Moiraine, Verin and Cadsuane for real, and Moiraine as the one who sets on a path, Verin is the "weaver", and Cadsuane is the one who decides when to cut the thread (so letting Rand "die" and go would be an allusion to that) and the Weaver, the middle one among the three Fates, returned in a special fashion in the guise of Nakomi, the Amerindian goddess similar to the Greek Moira.

 

The Three Fairy Godmothers overlooking the child in a craddle of the fairy tales are another incarnation, derived straight from the Fates.... and this fits Rand and Moiraine/Cadsuane/Verin really well... Verin suspected, Cadsuane came to late, Moiraine is the one who found Rand... then Verin protected him in turn, and nudged him, and finally Cadsuane sent him. At the end, two of them were still with him in the real world. Where was the third? She had become Nakomi.

 

This from an old essay I wrote (or rather.. it's one of the lengthy footnotes):

 

The Aelfinn & Eelfinn have strong links with both Knowledge and Destiny themes. They and their realms are inspired largely by races of the underworld and otherworld (not to be confused with hell and other lands of the dead) from many eras and cultures – often related to one another - like the Welsh elfin and fairy races, the Irish sidhe (shee), the old Celtic gods like the Tuatha dé Danaan, the French fées and the Arabic Jinns – among many others. Their realms are often perilous to humans but also full of secrets, hidden knowledge, magic and treasures, awaiting the daring hero or the incautious adventurer. “The fairies are people who transform, who can in an instant grant or refuse the most ambitious desires” [DS]. Christianity has often turned these old legendary creatures into mischievous demons, such as the incubus and succubus who haunted dreams to seduce humans and which are linked to Lanfear (see Lanfear essay) and Moghedien. The fairy tales derive in part from older myths, such as the three Greek goddesses of destiny, who spin and weave the threads of men’s lives – and cut them when time comes. It’s quite interesting that their name, the Moirai, is almost certainly an origin for the name Moiraine – currently presumed a prisoner in the realms of the Aelfinn & Eelfinn – as it is the source of Moghedien's original surname Moiral; she is another parallel of the Moirae. The Latinized Moirai, the Parcae, bestow gifts on newborn children. Other related goddesses include Athena, Freyja and the Norns (addition: Nakomi could simply be added to this list). A link to Moghedien is also found via the spiders (addition: Nakomi also means Spider/Weaver) that are often associated to the weaving myths, for instance with Athena and Arachne. All these myths and legends converge in the fairytales like Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty, with their fairy-godmothers. (The fairytale author Charles Perrault was a leading intellectual who wrote Parallels between the Ancients and the Moderns, a forerunner for the Age of Enlightenment in Europe.) It might be an uncanny coincidence, but the Fairy-godmother is translated from Perrault’s Fée-Marraine (thus, as Cairhienin have French influence, Moiraine could be a mix of Moirai and Marraine). The association to Moiraine is further suggested by the popularity of the Blue Fairy. It is indeed amusing to imagine Moiraine, Verin, Cadsuane and the sworn Aes Sedai as Rand’s fairy-godmothers, Moridin/Moghedien/Lanfear as evil witches/hags/godmothers and even the Black Ajah as the evil step-sisters. The confusion and convergence of many of the mythical and legendary motifs for the Aelfinn and Eelfinn, Moiraine, the Aes Sedai and even Lanfear is in itself quite notable. The theme of weaving, spinning and webs is unsurprisingly well developed in The Wheel of Time, and the associations to weavers from myth, legends and fairytales are plentiful. [DS, MF, CP, DH]

Edited by Suttree
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Did anyone initially think that when Thom knifes Cadsuane in the back that he was doing it out of revenge for his nephew?  That sequence was pretty cool for me.

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Did anyone initially think that when Thom knifes Cadsuane in the back that he was doing it out of revenge for his nephew?  That sequence was pretty cool for me.

That would have been terrible for Thom given the fact that Cadsuane is the one AS who came up with the alt method around stilling male channelers that resulted in a integration back to regular life and almost normal life span.

Edited by Suttree
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Did anyone initially think that when Thom knifes Cadsuane in the back that he was doing it out of revenge for his nephew?  That sequence was pretty cool for me.

 

The only thing I could think of during that scene was "If they could channel...why the hell didn't they just kill Thom instead of trying to disguise themselves and sneak by him?!"

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Did anyone initially think that when Thom knifes Cadsuane in the back that he was doing it out of revenge for his nephew?  That sequence was pretty cool for me.

 

The only thing I could think of during that scene was "If they could channel...why the hell didn't they just kill Thom instead of trying to disguise themselves and sneak by him?!"

The warderbond disappearing would have alerted Moiraine that someone was about to assault the bore

 

(Maybe that wouldn't have mattered, and maybe the shadow wasn't aware of their bond - but it could be one reason to try stealth)

Edited by mgns
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Did anyone initially think that when Thom knifes Cadsuane in the back that he was doing it out of revenge for his nephew?  That sequence was pretty cool for me.

 

The only thing I could think of during that scene was "If they could channel...why the hell didn't they just kill Thom instead of trying to disguise themselves and sneak by him?!"

If you could feel the amount of channeling that was going on inside (Moiraine + Nynaeve linked with Rand and Callandor) and you didn't know exactly what was going on in there, the last thing you want to do is draw attention to yourself by channeling nearby. It was reasonable to assume they'd be burned to a cinder without anyone bothering to see who it was first.

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My big question is why Rand's bond to the Supergirls didn't disappear. They lay the weaves on the brain and his brain is being cremated.

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DUDE! Just thought about Felix Pax. Has anyone heard his reaction to Valan Luca not being the true dragon. Would love to read his thoughts.

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I believe it has to do with the soul that is bonded, but then again Bridgette would have kept her bond with Elayne then. Does anyone else question Rand's pipe at the end? I really cool ter'argreal?

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If you get burned out, it gets snapped, if you get stilled, it gets snapped. Rand died lol

 

We've discussed the pipe quite a bit, and it seems to be the consensus that Rand can now weave reality to a degree.

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As far as the Bore goes....Rand patched it perfectly. As the good as the original by the Creator, am I right? And, it was so good that new cuendillar seals werent needed.

 

Did i interpret this correctly?

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Yes, using all 3 powers. However, we believe that whatever Egwene did on that hill is the new thin spot that may be drilled in the future. The pattern was coming apart their and she patched it a little bit.

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@ viperswhip yes thats what i think also. I was waiting to new seals and looking back...they werent needed.

 

Seems to me that in the next LB, it will take quite an extraordinary effort to break through what Rand did with the 3 powers. We'll never know but it did seem like a sealing that is unique and most likely doesnt happen every Age.

Edited by Mark Al Thor
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Pretty sure that was sayuran (sp) as perrin didnt know her and that was the only brown egwene brought along.

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Did anyone get the idea that Birgitte would be reborn as one of Elayne's children? I don't have the exact quote, but I recall Birgitte saying something to Elayne like, "I will be spun back into the pattern soon as a babe, with Gaidal only a year (?) older than I" Being that Elayne is noted to be far along in her pregnancy, and her bond with Birgitte, I think this would be cool. Of course, I'm not certain who the other child would be, given that they are twins...

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Well, she made it sound like the woman was giving birth right now. Probably a long labour, but it seemed impending, Elayne still has a few months left.

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Think it is generally assumed that Elaynes children are Calian and Shiva who are heralds of a new age.

 

Now that you mention this, I do remember reading this idea elsewhere and I can see how it works better. Thanks~

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Just finished. Crazy to think the series is over. Picked up Lord of Chaos about 15 years ago, read the first 3 chapters and realized WOT was worth starting from the beginning. Like many others, my enthusiasm for the series was tempered with books 7-11 (too many subplots, too much over description for my taste)... Satisfied with AMOL, though. Thought BS did as good a job as could be expected under the circumstances. Taim has been my favorite character since LoC... His limited footprint in subsequent books was a letdown, however, it was good to see him again. Loved Demandred, liked the ambiguity of Lanfear's arc, and thought the frenetic pacing all the way through was the right tone for AMOL. Littled dissapointed with the Rand/DO climax--felt a little too much like the final confrontation in the second chronicles of Thomas Covenant. All-in-all, would rank this book somewhere toward the front of the middle of the pack... 1. Great Hunt - 2. The Eye of the World - 3. Lord of Chaos - 4. The Dragon Reborn - 5. The Shadow Rising 6. - A Memory of Light. 

Thanks to all the hardcore WOT fans. On to Song of Ice and Fire.

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I really don't like the whole "world is miserable without the Dark One" approach.

It's said at least once that the pattern contains light and dark, good and evil, but that the Dark One is an outside influence trying to warp, destroy, and distort that balance. If the pattern contains good and evil, how would destroying the Dark One remove that free will? How would it cause the mindless dystopia that Rand saw in his vision? If anything, destroying the Dark One -should- lead to the ideal state of things, people still able to make their own choices for good or ill. Given how many hints were dropped about such and such a thing not happening before in any turning of the wheel, that this turning could finally change things for good, I'm disappointed that instead of destroyed, he was just sealed up until the next turning.

 

Speaking of one of the things that was different, Fain. I was disappointed with how his plotline was resolved. All the lead ins and build ups to what a wild card he was and how he could change things, the way he showed up and was dispatched so quickly was a let down. I was certainly expecting a lot more out of that.

 

Disappointed in how Superfade pretty much died offscreen without doing anything in this book.

 

Pretty much the way all of the villians were dispatched was a let down. Except Demandred, a lot of his parts seemed forced, but after all the buildup he needed to be the badass he was.

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I really don't like the whole "world is miserable without the Dark One" approach. It's said at least once that the pattern contains light and dark, good and evil, but that the Dark One is an outside influence trying to warp, destroy, and distort that balance. If the pattern contains good and evil, how would destroying the Dark One remove that free will? How would it cause the mindless dystopia that Rand saw in his vision? If anything, destroying the Dark One -should- lead to the ideal state of things, people still able to make their own choices for good or ill. Given how many hints were dropped about such and such a thing not happening before in any turning of the wheel, that this turning could finally change things for good, I'm disappointed that instead of destroyed, he was just sealed up until the next turning.

The Dark One is "...the Shadow in every man's mind..." so sayeth Lanfear, who should know. He isn't a deity, but a facet of humanity.

 

I'll stop there so as to not repeat my entirely unfounded view of the Wheel's metaphysics.

 

*I suppose I shouldn't say "The Dark One was", as he will be back in a few Turnings.

Edited by Hadilmir
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