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Luckers

Prologue Through to the End of the Epilogue--Full Book Discussion.

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After reading through the interview database, I'm becoming convinced its le Creator. RJ never says the Creator has NO influence on the world, but that he doesn't interfere. Nothing he or BS has said states that the Creator wouldn't talk to anyone or that the people rely on faith in the creator to keep the wheel moving, which is why they don't have churches and such.

 

I guess I'm at the point now where I wish there has been better descriptors for the DO's voice, it would have been interesting to see Rands reaction to the DO when he spoke, instead we just get capital letter. There should have been something that said the voice sounded like the taint or that it made his skin crawl or that it pulled at Rand's heart or something.

 

Instead, we get capital friggen letters.

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considering the ending for rand, why is it so hard to even fathom the idea that the creator has a role in all of this. it was there in the start of it all, after all this time it really makes sense. even though a rand pov thinks the creator abandoned 'his garden' it's kind of a nice idea to think that creator really didn't and actually took time to actually look into these momentous events

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As an atheist, I was glad to see the Creator not involved in his creations. Realizing the voice was the Creator doesn't change anything, it seemed to have NO effect on Rand what so ever, so it isn't that big of a deal, IMO. It's not like he planned on the voice aiding him or telling him shadow secrets.

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I also now wonder if Moiraine realizes she just heard the voice of the Creator...

she did, thats one of the other hints there

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I can sympathize with not putting too much stock in author Q&As but that's probably a result of my reading too many books on literary criticism to be completely comfortable with too much authorial intent.  There's also the fact that the old RJ RAFO started to get bloody frustrating after a while.

 

I still think that the voice is that of the Creator largely because I think that there is a difference between taking a direct part and speaking at two different parts of the story.  The words themselves seem be conceptually linked..

 

From TEOTW...

 

IT IS NOT HERE.

I WILL TAKE NO PART.  ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.

NOT HERE.

 

From aMOL

 

IT IS TIME LET THE TASK BE UNDERTAKEN.

 

 

 It seems to me that the 'I WILL TAKE NO PART.  ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL' only really makes sense if it is the Creator speaking as a way of setting the Dragon/Chosen One on his path by delegating the task to him.  And, that the voice just before he steps into the Dark One's realm is that task.

 

But, this is one of those arguments that I don't think will ever be resolved.

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I can sympathize with not putting too much stock in author Q&As but that's probably a result of my reading too many books on literary criticism to be completely comfortable with too much authorial intent.  There's also the fact that the old RJ RAFO started to get bloody frustrating after a while.

 

I still think that the voice is that of the Creator largely because I think that there is a difference between taking a direct part and speaking at two different parts of the story.  The words themselves seem be conceptually linked..

 

From TEOTW...

 

IT IS NOT HERE.

I WILL TAKE NO PART.  ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.

NOT HERE.

 

From aMOL

 

IT IS TIME LET THE TASK BE UNDERTAKEN.

 

 

 It seems to me that the 'I WILL TAKE NO PART.  ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL' only really makes sense if it is the Creator speaking as a way of setting the Dragon/Chosen One on his path by delegating the task to him.  And, that the voice just before he steps into the Dark One's realm is that task.

 

But, this is one of those arguments that I don't think will ever be resolved.

I think the issue is that alot of fans misunderstood that there is a difference between the creator communicating with Rand which cannot be interpreted as interfering in the fight. RJ ruled out interfering against the DO 

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To be clear I don't think anyone really has a problem with the voice as the creator. What the Q&As dispute is Nakomi being some creator avatar.

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I had assumed that the voice was the DO because I read the q&a's and was lead to believe that e creator was gone, creating oth stuff. Personally, I'm glad for the subterfuge. Made it a real shock just now realizing it. Neat to think I find surprises in a 20 year old book. The debate on the prophecies looks to be just warming up, so I'm glad to have fodder to keep the discussions alive.

 

And yes, I would not put it past the DO to say, come kick my ass. I wouldn't put anything past him in his attempts to push Rand into making decisions without thinking them through before hand. The DO can't do what he wants to do without the Dragon, so I imagined he would be eager for the chance to confront Rand.

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To be clear I don't think anyone really has a problem with the voice as the creator. What the Q&As dispute is Nakomi being some creator avatar.

the whole nakomi angle isn't really the question here. it's about the voice in the eye of the world and before entering the pit of doom in AMOL. nakomi, that's a question about ToM and the end of AMOL. myself i think it's clear that 'that' voice isn't the DO. there was some debate on it, even though recent comments are veering about that it is the creator, it doesn't mean it's clearly answered for everyone. the who is nakomi question isn't relevant with the voice i dont think

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When he said bloody he was not kidding.  I think that is the most POV characters I've ever seen killed in one book.  (though the books do have an insane number of POV characters).

 

Also:  Creative thinking with gateways FTW :D.

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I just finished the book myself.


Like most readers, I'm left a bit unsatisfied by the way it ended. Hopefully, an extra long prologue will come out in a few years that'll expand on that and show us life after. The fate of a GREAT deal of characters were left ambigious, some of whom I actually care about.


I will say this though.


Aviendha must be happy.


Her lover survived certain death, she's pregnant with his babies, and she saved her people from a slow decay into obscurity slash cultural extinction. Not to mention that she finally lost some of the tohs that she's been complaining about all series. The Wheel must've heard and obeyed.

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I just finished the book myself.

 

Like most readers, I'm left a bit unsatisfied by the way it ended. Hopefully, an extra long prologue will come out in a few years that'll expand on that and show us life after. The fate of a GREAT deal of characters were left ambigious, some of whom I actually care about.

 

I will say this though.

 

Aviendha must be happy.

 

Her lover survived certain death, she's pregnant with his babies, and she saved her people from a slow decay into obscurity slash cultural extinction. Not to mention that she finally lost some of the tohs that she's been complaining about all series. The Wheel must've heard and obeyed.

Yea from reading the posts I can see that a lot of people were unsatisfied with the way this ended. But in all honosty, can you see any other way? When you think about all of the huge fantasy epics that have been written, whether you like them or not, they all end in a similar fashion, with a certain degree of ambiguity. The Eragon series, Harry Potter, The Tolkien Trilogy, we never really do find out what happens to each and every character in the book. I think a certain degree of ambiguity is ok, especially when dealing with this many characters. Honestly though, I cant think of many characters who we dont know what happened to them in the end. Perrin and Faile turn out ok, Matt and Tuon turn out ok, Elayne, Aviendha and Min turn out ok (although true we dont know what happens to Min in regards to serving the Empress), Lan and Nynaeve turn out ok, its assumed Galad and Berelain turn out ok, Egwene and Gawyn are dead, Cadsuane is ok, Alivia is ok, Rhuarc is dead. I honestly cant think of many main characters who we dont know what happens to them in the end. If you think I'm wrong I would love to have a discussion over either of the points we both brought up.

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Also, In regards to Nakomi, I think she is the Tom Bombadil of this series. Sort of a wild card thrown in who no one really understands, has mysterious powers, pops up a few times and then vanishes. Thoughts?

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Southpaw asked Brandon tonight whether she was in there just for theories, and he said no, but that's not really helpful.

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Thinking about it the ending really was... abrupt.  I wanted to see Tuon with hawkwing, Simply because I wanted to watch her squirm.  And a lot of others things were left unresolved.  I'm not saying I wanted every thread tied, but this is basically like having the hero stop the villain who just blew up half the politically fractured world... and then ending the story without saying anything about what came next.  The entire aftermath consisted only of something that was pretty obvious:  Rand lives.  Gasp.

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I just finished the book myself.

 

Like most readers, I'm left a bit unsatisfied by the way it ended. Hopefully, an extra long prologue will come out in a few years that'll expand on that and show us life after. The fate of a GREAT deal of characters were left ambigious, some of whom I actually care about.

 

I will say this though.

 

Aviendha must be happy.

 

Her lover survived certain death, she's pregnant with his babies, and she saved her people from a slow decay into obscurity slash cultural extinction. Not to mention that she finally lost some of the tohs that she's been complaining about all series. The Wheel must've heard and obeyed.

Yea from reading the posts I can see that a lot of people were unsatisfied with the way this ended. But in all honosty, can you see any other way? When you think about all of the huge fantasy epics that have been written, whether you like them or not, they all end in a similar fashion, with a certain degree of ambiguity. The Eragon series, Harry Potter, The Tolkien Trilogy, we never really do find out what happens to each and every character in the book. I think a certain degree of ambiguity is ok, especially when dealing with this many characters. Honestly though, I cant think of many characters who we dont know what happened to them in the end. Perrin and Faile turn out ok, Matt and Tuon turn out ok, Elayne, Aviendha and Min turn out ok (although true we dont know what happens to Min in regards to serving the Empress), Lan and Nynaeve turn out ok, its assumed Galad and Berelain turn out ok, Egwene and Gawyn are dead, Cadsuane is ok, Alivia is ok, Rhuarc is dead. I honestly cant think of many main characters who we dont know what happens to them in the end. If you think I'm wrong I would love to have a discussion over either of the points we both brought up.

Uh, those are bad examples.

 

In the Inheritance Cycle, Eragon had won. The line of Dragonriders will continue and the land was well on its way to peace. His future is left ambiguous, yes, but only that. The other characters, whether minor or otherwise, had their story wrapped up pretty well. As for the the Return of the King, it did not simply ended with the One Ring destroyed, the army of Man saved, and Frodo awakened surrounded by friends. It went on for years after the main quest was over. Finally, the Harry Potter series. You would be correct if the last book ended immediately after he killed Voldemort, but in its epilogue which takes place 19 years later, we were shown who ended up with who, how many kids they've each had, and the main characters themselves relatively content with their lives.  

 

Meanwhile, a Memory of Light was almost completely about the Last Battle, with only a few vague hints on the future.

 

The strife between the Ashaman and the Aes Sedai is far from over and could easily throw the land into chaos. And what of Shara? Are they now seen as a whole country of Darkfriends by the world and will they be indiscriminately purged for their role in the Last Battle? I'm sure Tuon will be happy to help. Or what will happen between Andor and Two Rivers now that Faile is Queen and Perrin is no longer ta'veren. Or what will happen with the Band and Andor? With Min and Mat when Tuon inevitably sails for Seanchan?

 

Even more, what will happen to the minor characters? Who survived? Who died? And the numerous fortellings scattered across the entire book. Who will Sarene have a "tempestuous love affair" with now that she's one of many corpses on Shayol Ghul? What on EARTH is Logain's glory? The one that few men could hope to attain.

 

The Last Battle has ended, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the story has ended for those who survived! We can guess their future, but your theory is as good as mine.

 

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I'll try to avoid repetition

1.  Where was Roedran/the Murandians after FoM? All the other armies got assigned somewhere and were referenced again except them.

 

2. I didn't like the abandonment of the phrase "No man can stand in the Shadow so long that he cannot find the Light again."  We had Ingtar in TGH and almost Asmodean, but no one again.

3.  I feel like I must be missing something with the Gawyn character. He was wrong every step of the way and ruined a whole bunch of things for "the good guys," but never gets his redemption since he died a stupid death.  Egwene's affection for him made me dislike her.

4.  We know severing can be healed, can Annoura's burning out be healed? Setalle Anan's (if she still lives)?

5. It seemed like a lot of the Asha'man disappeared.  It only felt like Taim had a couple dozen with him, and Logain had a few dozen with him, and then a couple more scattered between the battles.  Wasn't there supposed to be getting close to 1000 of them, and wasn't Taim supposed to have the much better portion of them?

 

6. Did Slayer do anything notable except kill wolves?  Pretty lousy assassin...


Beyond this book...
7.  Did we ever find out why Berelain had a special relationship with the Aiel?

8. Who opened Cadsuane's box holding the access key and the sad bracelet?

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Okay, finished, and I am just ...what. There were moments of awesome, but plenty of 'wait, you're not done!' from me here.

 

Shara: What the...totally disliked this country coming out of pretty much nowhere to be the final big army.

 

Redveiled Aiel: I can't believe I didn't think of who they might possibly be until Aviendha straight out said it. I liked that stroke.

 

Siuan's death I'm not as put out about now  - Min had a point there, although I wish Min had had a chance to bring that up to them EARLIER. However, I wish Siuan hadn't gone out like she had...and I would have loved to have gotten a reaction from Moiraine, her oldest and dearest friend!

 

Lanfear: Wait, that's IT? All that buildup, and...huh? Talk about going out like a...

 

Moghedien: Seriously? I can't. I just can't believe that. Well, she is known for surviving, but STILL.

 

Egwene's Keeper vanished from the story just like *that* after she died. Uhm...I actually liked that character and wanted to see more from her.

 

And...er...people should have realized something was up when there was no reaction from the three girls at Rand's death. I was positive more knew about him being bonded to all three.

 

Also chalk me up in the "I wish there'd been an epilogue showing what happened" later.
 

Edited by Anrui

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I think it's 100% a Brandon addition. One pretty much added for the purpose of getting the fans to theorize at that. Petty pointless, not down with it all.

You think so? Even after the grey haired woman whose voice was unrecognizable to Rand appeared. That scene was confirmed to be RJ. Ahlstrom even said that chapter was all RJ.

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We had great debate in past as to who the greatest living swordsman in Randland is. I call Lan and this book settles it!

Also, Light is One Power.

 

There was no question he was the greatest of the current crop (except for a few rabid Gawyn fans).  I said he was well beyond two-handed Rand (Toram example, plus Aviendha's comment regarding Lan). 

 

Lan is definitely the greatest blademaster of the current Age and I would say ever, greatest fighter ever too.  It does not matter if you are somehow magically better than him, he still beats you. 

 

Demandred stated that NOBODY in this Age could be that good, thus Lan > Jearom.

 

Gawyn with 1 ring took out 6 Sharans at once without a scratch, with 3 rings he could not touch Demandred, who completely toyed with him.  Demandred could have taken out perhaps 3 Gawyn's at once.  (no rings)

 

Demandred states that it cannot be Asmodean and that it must be LTT he is facing.

 

In his PoV, we see that Demandred was preparing/practicising for LTT.  In Lan's PoV, we see that if he was not exhausted/injured before the fight that perhaps it would have been different (no need to sheath the blade). 

 

LTT was very likely the greatest blademaster of AoL, he and Be'lal took up the sport. LTT was #1 at pretty much anything outside of TAR. The ease at which Rand became #2 blademaster implies how insanely good LTT was. Since Demandred is Mr.Almost, it is also likely he was #2 in AoL. 

 

Then we have a none exhausted Lan taking out 2 Myddraal at once within around 5 seconds!  "The Fades froze, STUPEDIFIED for a second".  From their expression and Price Kaisel's comment, this appears to be an impossible thing.

 

Mat (FoH) states that you have to attack A Myddraal before it OVERWHELMS you.  These two Fades were simultanaesouly attacking Lan and he took them down with incredible ease.

 

 

Q.E.D.

Edited by Entreri

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Only the text controls.

Which of course would be true if we had total confirmation of something in the text totally contradicting those quotes which we do not. Further I would be curious to see you provide even one concrete example of that ever happening before in relation to some thing RJ said. You mentioned earlier how you've lost faith in Q&As. Surely then you have examples to share?

 

The whole debate on whose voice Rand heard and who the old gray-haired Aiel looking character is at the end are both wonderful examples.  The voice in The Eye of the World was clearly the creator, yet people who wished it were otherwise looked to extra-canonical statements of the author to convince themselves otherwise.  The same is going on now with the mystery Aiel:  people are focusing on something said outside the text to justify theories that have no textual support.  Canon alone controls because it is thought out, executed, never paraphrased, and never subject to change.

Edited by CTGryffindor

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