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Prologue Through to the End of the Epilogue--Full Book Discussion.


Luckers
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She can't possibly be any of the Aiel women we have seen already because I don't think Rand knows who she is.  I haven't read the book, but it seems to me that he didn't recognize her.

 

He's dazed and his vision is fuzzy, so "can't possibly" is definitely going too far.

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Village girl stays village girl till the end.

Troll stays troll till the end. Seriously xxx just give over. Absurd hyperbole like this takes away from rational discussion on the topic and only derails things.

 

I've learned to keep the "read and ignore" switch on all the time. In the next few weeks, the trolls are going to be dancing with glee that Egwene is dead. I doubt reasoning with them will be useful.

 

Terez: Interesting. DomA, I think, had some theory of Nakomi being a kind of earth mother figure to the Da'shain, which was borne out by Bair saying Nakomi was an ancient name. She could be a kind of dream manifestation of the Creator. Or just a Hero Da'shain. Brandon seems to say he'll be happy to explain after aMoL, so I think this can be resolved either way, if someone asks him.

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Village girl stays village girl till the end.

Troll stays troll till the end. Seriously xxx just give over. Absurd hyperbole like this takes away from rational discussion on the topic and only derails things.
 

I've learned to keep the "read and ignore" switch on all the time. In the next few weeks, the trolls are going to be dancing with glee that Egwene is dead. I doubt reasoning with them will be useful.

.

It's just crazy to me that some could let that blind them to one of the major themes of the series. Further even though she is not in my very top characters how could anyone not give her props after AMoL?

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Village girl stays village girl till the end.

Troll stays troll till the end. Seriously xxx just give over. Absurd hyperbole like this takes away from rational discussion on the topic and only derails things.
 

I've learned to keep the "read and ignore" switch on all the time. In the next few weeks, the trolls are going to be dancing with glee that Egwene is dead. I doubt reasoning with them will be useful.

.

It's just crazy to me that some could let that blind them to one of the major themes of the series. Further even though she is not in my very top characters how could anyone not give her props after AMoL?

Oh they're going to say she's a Mary Sue, that the authors killed her off to justify her character, that she still hates (!) Rand. I can even see someone using the fact that Rand nearly lost because of his grief at her death against her. Its Egwene, and its become clear that there's a large amount of insanity regarding her character. Its like someone let loose Fain at a certain fraction of the fans.

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Egwene never really bothered me.  I dont see why so many people dislike her so strongly.  She was one of the most realistic characters in the books while RJ was writing her.  Her brief scenes that portrayed her as a bit ugly towards her friends felt very real to me and made me have a whisker of a dislike for her from time to time, but that was the point of them.  Despite her so-called flaws you always knew she was clearly on the good guys side and would help her friends.

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What happened to Rand's two wounds other than breaking open and bleeding while in Shoyul Gul? Did one disappear when Mat killed Fain or did it still remain? Did in the end it was the main reason his body (original one) died as he had assumed in previous books?

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  Being a Wiccan myself I would be very satisfied if Nakomi is realy a some kind of Creator's proection. The whole scene with her and Avi strongly reminds me a hidden mistery of the Goddess Herself take an examine very perspective apprentice before her dedication and give her the last lesson. I can predict that Aviendha's role in postTG Future will be much more important than most of the fans think - remember, later in tSR she took a message from WOs where were those : Your destiny is known, you will be a Wise One of Great strengh and Huge power ...

   Now there are no more Seals , so the Watcher of its title becomes obsolete. Egwene laid a basis for all channelers integration, especialy between AS and WO . It would be a perfect sense if the 4th Age honorific for Amyrlin being Keeper of the Wisdom and Aviendha sometimes after raising her and Rands children take this position .

Edited by Elvira_Sedai
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Rand's wounds open on his way into the Pit of Doom and he starts bleeding out, and he speculates that he needs to finish killing/sealing away the Dark One before he bleeds to death. 

 

It is not clearly stated what exactly kills Rand's body at the very end. 

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I know that its been said by RJ and alot of fans that the creator will not interfere with the struggle between Rand and the dark one however post sealing of the bore is it possible that the creator through Nakomi would facilitate Rands body swap and new powers as a way of thanking rand for his sacrifice?

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I know that its been said by RJ and alot of fans that the creator will not interfere with the struggle between Rand and the dark one however post sealing of the bore is it possible that the creator through Nakomi would facilitate Rands body swap and new powers as a way of thanking rand for his sacrifice?

 

The thought has definitely entered my mind, but it seems a big jump.  The mechanism for the body swap has been in the story for years now so it is kind of odd that no specifics are given on exactly how it happens.  It is even stranger to me that Nynaeve had nothing to do with Rand dying or coming back to life or swapping bodies or anything else.  Yet somehow Alivia was involved?  And somehow Alivia knew to leave him money and things and Rand knew about it...when he was completely unconscious the entire time.  I can only speculate that Min and the girls figured this out prior to the ending and talked about it with Rand?

 

The ending was definitely very weird and a lot of unanswered questions remain.  It's hard to fault RJ or BS until we hear who wrote what and what notes were left saying what though.  Another thing that bothered me about the ending was how Mat and Perrin really didn't feel any remorse or sadness towards Rand dying.  Mat didn't even give it a thought in his PoV.  And Im pretty sure this is all RJ in the Epilogue.

Edited by Mark D
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The lovely part now that I think about it was the ultimate woman supremacy organization the Aes Sedai was forced to fight under a MAN.They thought of themselves as the ultimate users of the OP,got blasted early on by trained channelers Stumbled along throughout the book taking heavy losses.Could not defeat Tiam without a sucidal move.The great mother Egwene dead and NO more the most important group in Randland.Thank you Sanderson!!

Edited by XXX47
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I will say I thought the epilogue was awful. The Rand section at the very end (all 3 pages) was nice, but the rest of it was poorly and hurriedly written and the characters acted out of character and in a very dumb way. 

 

It appears no one grieved for Rand except for Tam. Mat and Perrin literally don't even think about him. No grieving for Egwene. Where's her father and mother?

 

Also, is no one concerned that, from the point of view of most of the characters, an immensely powerful Forsaken, Moridin/Ishamael, has escaped and is at large? Someone who might have the skill and knowledge to actually open a new Bore into the Dark One's prison if he had the time and resources? Now, we know that this isn't the case because Rand has control of Moridin's body, but from the point of view of everyone else, this should be pretty alarming, especially considering 3 other Forsaken survive in various states (Graendal, Moghedien, and Mesaana).

 

The ending was pretty bad - both in writing and content. I suspect Sanderson didn't want to change any of it, given that Jordan probably wrote most or all of it, but still, it was bad.

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Not sure, never personally been able to understand so disliking something as to have this reaction, not when you're still reading it.

 

Don't get me wrong, I HAVE had that type of reaction, but I also stopped following the series when that happened.

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Ideally the book will be waiting when I get home today. One minor character question. How about Gaul? For whatever reason, I've been hoping he makes it through the whole series, just because he was an archetype character that is typically introduced to provide expository details (he's one of the first Aiel we meet, and learn some of their customs/behavior through him, we see early on Perrin's compassion and doing what is "right"), and then is usually killed off to give one of the main characters further motivation. The fact that he actually got somewhat fleshed out has made me enjoy his character far more than I probably should, so even if he's just mentioned in passing, hopefully he survives?

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Guest PiotrekS

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Village girl stays village girl till the end.

 

Troll stays troll till the end. Seriously xxx just give over. Absurd hyperbole like this takes away from rational discussion on the topic and only derails things.
 

I've learned to keep the "read and ignore" switch on all the time. In the next few weeks, the trolls are going to be dancing with glee that Egwene is dead. I doubt reasoning with them will be useful.

.

It's just crazy to me that some could let that blind them to one of the major themes of the series. Further even though she is not in my very top characters how could anyone not give her props after AMoL?

Oh they're going to say she's a Mary Sue, that the authors killed her off to justify her character, that she still hates (!) Rand. I can even see someone using the fact that Rand nearly lost because of his grief at her death against her. Its Egwene, and its become clear that there's a large amount of insanity regarding her character. Its like someone let loose Fain at a certain fraction of the fans.

Yet you respond to the teases again and again, having had this debate how many times? In terms of keeping the forums alive, Egwene is the best character in the series.

I could respond further-e.g. there are very good reasons for calling her a Mary Sue and stating them is by no means trollish- but as I've said, IT IS NOT HERE.

 

I like ideas connecting Nakomi to the Jenn and the crystals. Good thinking, even though there might be problems with this theory.

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Ideally the book will be waiting when I get home today. One minor character question. How about Gaul? For whatever reason, I've been hoping he makes it through the whole series, just because he was an archetype character that is typically introduced to provide expository details (he's one of the first Aiel we meet, and learn some of their customs/behavior through him, we see early on Perrin's compassion and doing what is "right"), and then is usually killed off to give one of the main characters further motivation. The fact that he actually got somewhat fleshed out has made me enjoy his character far more than I probably should, so even if he's just mentioned in passing, hopefully he survives?

 

Gaul survives the whole book and kicks some butt against the red veil Aiel. 

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Siuan dies. Leane almost dies but just about survives a direct meeting with Demandred. Beldeine and her Asha'man, Karldin, die together on the battlefield. I thought Yukiri was toast when Mat's command tent was attacked as she disappears in the resulting chaos, but reappears at the end as one of the Aes Sedai 'recruiting' Cadsuane as Amyrlin.

She had a voice Rand did not recognize if I remember correctly (talking about the mysterious woman at the end) .

 

Siuan and Bryne were also in the command tent. They all reappear at the same time, in the beginning of the next chapter.

 

 

 

 

Sarene is Compelled by Graendal and appears to be dead (she's last seen collapsing with 'glassy eyes' as Cadsuane blows the living crap out of the area around Graendal).

I figured Sarene survived since she was supposed to have a passionate love affair with someone, according to Min. I suppose it could have happened offscreen at some point.

r />

"Images and auras; a tempestuous love affair, of all things! The woman was ice, however beautiful. And there was nothing useful in knowing some man would melt her!" -TPoD

She probably had an affair with her Warder.

 

Sarene's secret vice was poetry, though she would never have let anyone know she could be interested in something so... emotional. She would have died of shame had Vitalien, her Warder, ever discovered that she had written lines comparing him to a leopard, among other graceful, powerful and dangerous animals.

 

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure that Alivia is the one holding Rand after he seals the bore.

Negative. The woman holding Rand is wearing Aiel garb and is very old (i.e. she looks really really old, which Alivia does not). She matches description of Nakomi in ToM.
She also fits with the descriptions of Sorilea and Bair.

 

The 'Creator avatar' thing is still the most likely possibility...

Why would you think that? I don't think it's likely at all, especially considering RJ's confirmation that the Creator does not interfere. The voice, lame as it is, doesn't contradict that, but Nakomi certainly would.

 

Someone asked Brandon if Nakomi was a Jenn Aiel, and he said they were on the right track.

She had a voice he did not recognize if I remember it properly.

Edited by skalors3
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I could respond further-e.g. there are very good reasons for calling her a Mary Sue and stating them is by no means trollish- but as I've said, IT IS NOT HERE.

.

Oh come now Piotreks, you've been here long enopugh to know the types of posts xxx regulalry tosses her way are 100% trolling.

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Guest PiotrekS

I could respond further-e.g. there are very good reasons for calling her a Mary Sue and stating them is by no means trollish- but as I've said, IT IS NOT HERE.

.

 

Oh come now Piotreks, you've been here long enopugh to know the types of posts xxx regulalry tosses her way are 100% trolling.

 

Oh yes, he always writes something in the style of gender wars spiced up by dislike of Egwene and teasing. But he always gets a reaction, while more moderate posts sometimes die in abandonment and neglect ;)

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Ideally the book will be waiting when I get home today. One minor character question. How about Gaul? For whatever reason, I've been hoping he makes it through the whole series, just because he was an archetype character that is typically introduced to provide expository details (he's one of the first Aiel we meet, and learn some of their customs/behavior through him, we see early on Perrin's compassion and doing what is "right"), and then is usually killed off to give one of the main characters further motivation. The fact that he actually got somewhat fleshed out has made me enjoy his character far more than I probably should, so even if he's just mentioned in passing, hopefully he survives?

He plays a decent role in the book. If you want to know his fate, you may PM me.

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I will say I thought the epilogue was awful. The Rand section at the very end (all 3 pages) was nice, but the rest of it was poorly and hurriedly written and the characters acted out of character and in a very dumb way. 

 

It appears no one grieved for Rand except for Tam. Mat and Perrin literally don't even think about him. No grieving for Egwene. Where's her father and mother?

 

Also, is no one concerned that, from the point of view of most of the characters, an immensely powerful Forsaken, Moridin/Ishamael, has escaped and is at large? Someone who might have the skill and knowledge to actually open a new Bore into the Dark One's prison if he had the time and resources? Now, we know that this isn't the case because Rand has control of Moridin's body, but from the point of view of everyone else, this should be pretty alarming, especially considering 3 other Forsaken survive in various states (Graendal, Moghedien, and Mesaana).

 

The ending was pretty bad - both in writing and content. I suspect Sanderson didn't want to change any of it, given that Jordan probably wrote most or all of it, but still, it was bad.

 

Sadly, the more I think about it the more I agree with you.  It was nicely written and I finished the ending with a smile, but it had some issues.  It really is a train wreck of a book all around.  On my first read through, it was so bad that I literally almost stopped reading entirely.  Then I got to chapter 37 and enjoyed that chapter tremendously.  After that chapter things started slipping down hill again, but by the time I got to the end I enjoyed the snippets of RJ writing enough to feel good about the ending.  Now that it's all said and done and is sinking in...I'm starting to get very critical of how it was all slopped together.  It really is pretty horrible even though some very key parts of the book did manage to be very enjoyable for me.

 

There are just so many unanswered questions that should have been answered.  I'm not talking about things that were intentionally left out to leave the world alive...I'm talking about things like Verin's letter.  Major cliffhangers and storypoints that were designed to be revealed.  And what happened to Moiraine and Lanfear behind the doorway?  What about their wishes?  On top of that, the ending after chapter 37 and before the epilogue really felt sloppy and poorly constructed.  In addition, major plot pieces were just dropped in the story at random almost clearly just to wrap them up.  It was very clear that almost no time was spent integrating them into the whole story.  Alanna and Lanfear for instance.  Or even Moridin and Shadar Haran?  Padan Fain?  Hell, the entire Perrin arc in this book was bad and basically didn't fit in the book.  It seemed like a separate story on its own instead of something woven in that was key to the Last Battle.  And Slayer?  The tiny details we learned about him felt like the author forgot them in the first draft and just literally added them in about 10 minutes of work to satisfy the fans because it was on a list of items that needed to be in the book.

 

The book really felt to me like Brandon spent a lot of time writing Chapter 37 and finished the entire rest of the book in about a week.

 

And then we have statements from Brandon that specifically state that "Yes, it was significant that Rand was channeling Light and Power in ToM".  What the hell???  We never see him "channel Light" again....how and why was that significant?

 

I started out really liking the ending.  And I mean REALLY liking it.  But I was more or less considering Chapter 37 and the whole actual battle to be the ending.  That was filled with typical Brandonisms that I dislike, but it was written so well that I actually was able to overlook them and enjoy the whole thing.  It was great.  Sadly, the more time goes on and the more I objectively look at the rest...including the actual ending that mattered (Rand vs the DO)...it feels worse and worse.  So bad that I'm starting to not even want to talk about it because it's not even worth it anymore.

Edited by Mark D
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Except that the end was RJs. It was his. He wrote that final chapter. Not just 37. It was specific that we were getting the end RJ intended.

Edited by skalors3
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