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Prologue Through to the End of the Epilogue--Full Book Discussion.


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my best guess for Nakomi is Lanfear.  With the exception of Lanfear's appearance at the very end.   Lanfear has been displaying a surprising propensity to aid the Light in Tel'aran'rhiod.  She aids Perrin throughout.  It is only when Perrin proves to be too weak that she stops.   Nakomi appeared only after Aviendha began to grow tired.

 

Lanfear dies before the last appearance of Nakomi.  Or at least who we all assume is Nakomi?

I'm pretty sure that last appearance was Alivia not Nakomi

 

Definitely not.  She is described as an old woman with gray hair in Aiel clothing.  I would liken her most closely to the Creator for sure.

 

RJ was a religious man.  I had always thought that the idea of the creator not taking any hand in the world and not helping in any way didn't line up with him.  My thoughts are that this was his insertion to show that despite not taking a direct hand, someone really is watching over everyone.  A little religious sprinkle into the story to add to the feel good ending.

I see your point.  You must be correct.  Afterall, it is not possible to change  your appearance in Tel'aran'rhiod.   ;)

Edited by Traslyn1
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I'm pretty sure that Alivia is the one holding Rand after he seals the bore.

 

Negative. The woman holding Rand is wearing Aiel garb and is very old (i.e. she looks really really old, which Alivia does not). She matches description of Nakomi in ToM. And they do not appear to be in Tel'aran'rhiod at that point.

 

The 'Creator avatar' thing is still the most likely possibility, but the Hero of the Horn is also quite likely. At the moment Rand stumbles out of the cave, the Heroes are knocking around, which makes it possible.

Edited by Werthead
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I'm pretty sure that Alivia is the one holding Rand after he seals the bore.

 

Negative. The woman holding Rand is wearing Aiel garb and is very old (i.e. she looks really really old, which Alivia does not). She matches description of Nakomi in ToM. And they do not appear to be in Tel'aran'rhiod at that point.

I see what you're saying. I went back and re-read that segment- I didn't think BS/RJ had described the woman.  It also says that Rand did not recognize her voice, and Rand would have recognized Alivia's voice.   I guess we get no resolution on how Alivia was to help Rand die...

Edited by Traslyn1
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I'm pretty sure that Alivia is the one holding Rand after he seals the bore.

 

Negative. The woman holding Rand is wearing Aiel garb and is very old (i.e. she looks really really old, which Alivia does not). She matches description of Nakomi in ToM. And they do not appear to be in Tel'aran'rhiod at that point.

I see what you're saying. I went back and re-read that segment- I didn't think BS/RJ had described the woman.  It also says that Rand did not recognize her voice, and Rand would have recognized Alivia's voice.   I guess we get no resolution on how Alivia was to help Rand die...

 

Alivia helped him in faking his death by gathering money, clothes and other stuff he would need to hit the road and keeping his secret; it was not in some dramatic way like many expected.

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I have a question about the wolves. Did they fight?

 

Yes, they help protect the entrance to SG while Rand is fighting the DO.

 

To add I think they may have been involved a small bit on other fronts like helping Elayne's forces, so much happens battle wise that it is hard to remember every little detail after a single read.

Edited by Ryan52
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I have a question about the wolves. Did they fight?

 

Yes, they counteract the Last Hunt.  

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Reading thro this thread looks like some people did not like the way Demandred was protrayed.Are you guys kidding me?He was the only Forsaken worth his name in the entire series. 

Demandred was not a bad guy per say,he just got p1ssed off at LTT and not all the fault in this was Demandred's,LTT had a role to play in it too.

 

And in AMoL he was pretty incrediable,he recruited Taim,built an entire army and nearly beat the light forces.Him searching out LTT was in character.Loved the way he gave Logain an ass whipping.(None of the 3rd age channelers except Rand should be able to stand up to the AoL channelers when using OP.Ny matching Moggy was just shameful early on.). And he died doing something in character,fighting a duel and trying to be the best.He could like fried Lan if he wanted to just win but that was not good enough.

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Thanks guys :0)

 

No problem, if you are that interested in the wolves aspect there is a bit of an unexpected twist with them at the end.  Not sure how to do spoiler tags so I will do it in white text for you to highlight if you want to know.  The Horn of Valere also summons the spirits of uncorrupted Darkhounds, which is used to turn the tide against the Wild Hunt who are breaking up the remaining Lightside forces at SG.. 

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I thought the wolves were hugely important. They stopped Slayer in the T'A'R repeatedly while Perrin was out of the fight, they and Elyas took Ituralde out of the fight before he could inadvertently betray the Light forces, they flooded into Thakan'dar and fought all the "run of the mill" Shadowspawn to help the Light forces, and when the Darkhounds of the Wild Hunt show up at the very end the wolves sacrifice themselves to keep the Wild Hunt from Rand as long as possible. And when the Horn of Valere was sounded, the "hero wolves" of the Last Hunt came to fight the Wild Hunt. 

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Any speculation or previous references to the "new version" of Padan Fain that shows up at the end? It called itself "Shaisam", which seemed to tickle my memory but I can't seem to find anything on it. 

 

Shai'tan... Shaisam. Hmmmm.....

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Reading thro this thread looks like some people did not like the way Demandred was protrayed.Are you guys kidding me?He was the only Forsaken worth his name in the entire series. 

Demandred was not a bad guy per say,he just got p1ssed off at LTT and not all the fault in this was Demandred's,LTT had a role to play in it too.

 

And in AMoL he was pretty incrediable,he recruited Taim,built an entire army and nearly beat the light forces.Him searching out LTT was in character.Loved the way he gave Logain an ass whipping.(None of the 3rd age channelers except Rand should be able to stand up to the AoL channelers when using OP.Ny matching Moggy was just shameful early on.). And he died doing something in character,fighting a duel and trying to be the best.He could like fried Lan if he wanted to just win but that was not good enough.

 

Demandred was AWESOME in the book.  He just wasn't Demandred....at all.  He was some terrible bad guy from another book series that was dropped into WoT.  It was awesome, but it didn't fit in the WoT world at all.

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Any speculation or previous references to the "new version" of Padan Fain that shows up at the end? It called itself "Shaisam", which seemed to tickle my memory but I can't seem to find anything on it. 

 

Shai'tan... Shaisam. Hmmmm.....

I so thought that was a typo when I first read it...   I was looking at that name and thinking about my keyboard...  Let's see the <m> key is right next to the <n> key... wait a minute <s> really isn't that close to <t>...  For a minute-  I had almost hoped these 1st editions would be a bit more valuable....  lol

Edited by Traslyn1
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I'm dying to know just how the All-Mother harangues everyone into following her lead at FoM....

 

Personally I thought the FoM showdown between her and Rand gave pretty strong evidence that Halima had used Compulsion to turn Egwene against the Dragon.  Besides there being a line that referenced her headaches and Halima just prior to the meeting, Egwene is unreasonable and obstinate far beyond reason; and as much as I dislike Egwene she is not unreasonable by any stretch normally.  Her demands and expectations are absurd, she is unfailingly contrary no matter what he says and there are a lot of indications that Rand's nature as the Dragon is lost upon her (she thinks his effect on the land and making things grow is a trick of some sorts for example).  It has been a theory I found pretty solid for awhile now and I think this book bore it out.  

Ugh, she's that much of a bitch about it? I figured she would be, but had hoped she might pull the humongous stick out of her ass at some point. Reading that is going to be infuriating, I'm sure. Still, I don't find it that surprising or think that it is out of character for her, and don't think that it would necessarily have to be Halima's influence. Egwene's ego has grown exponentially as the series progressed, and as of ToM, she seems to think she knows better than the Pattern or the Creator (Rand's ta'veren pull is some "trick" that means nothing, after all...she is still superior to him in her big fat head). She is completely unwilling to give credit to anyone who hasn't prostrated themselves before her and acknowledged her as the supreme ruler of the world. So her refusing to give an inch to Rand and insisting on her way with no compromise on her part isn't really surprising.

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I have always enjoyed scanning the maps and making images of them. I don't know if it's helpful, or ethical?, but here is the Field of Merrilor as featured in AMoL.

 

Scan.jpg

Edited by Ituralde's Bannerman
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i felt it was a slow starter, the prologue, chapter 1,2 and 3 not really starting much off. as this was the last book i started to resent these chapters as not much was happening and it meant there less space for the rest. i suspose this is a consequence of them being pre release material, but it just seemd like a waste of words. a little less androl and a little more epilogue would have suited more.

 

i enjoyed fains death, but thought more would have been made of the 'different type of evil' that he encompassed, i thought his absence in the preceeding books combined with his lack of page time demeans him as a character.

 

moridin was a bit of a wet fish. worst naeblis ever...

 

possibly the worst name for a weave ever, 'flame of tar valon'.

 

im not sure how i feel about the ending. the books seem to present themselves as a contradiiction with regrds to the metaphysical elements. the pattern does not alow certain choices, but does others, the prophetic elements give an underlying impression of fate not choice etc.

 

if rand cant channel anymore, he cannot travel. randland is a big place if you only have a horse.

 

thought narishma would have bit more of a contribution.

 

happy overall, would have liked epilogue but i did not expect so many charcters to survive so even a couple of pges is nice. egwene needed to die to provide some amount of validity.

yeah that weave seems like it was pulled out of a hat to make Egwene's death more epic. Having read all the books i dont recall any mention of a weave that can repair or undo balefire. I kind of doubt whether the more powerful channelers from the age of legends even knew such weave existed. Im basing that on the fact that it was mention in one of the books that during the war of powers a semi agreement was reached between the shadow and the light not to use balefire because of its affect on the pattern. Had they known that weave i would have thought they would have a "balefire party" knowing that the damage could be fixed. So absent any additional information i find the "flame of tar valon" extremely cheesy IMO

The name is very cheesy, and I find it troubling that even Egwene doesn't really know what she's doing. Almost, it seems as if RJ didn't leave detailed notes on this, so Brandon just chose to not come up with them himself. That seems to be the case at several points, actually. But its hardly impossible for Egwene to innovate and do something no one in the AoL thought of doing/managed to do. 

 

 

Are we so entirely certain that we have not seen this weave before?    After all, there are crystal columns in Rhuidean...  We have never learned the fate of the Jenn Aiel...  Nor has it been adequately explained how a forest of crystal columns was brought to the waste by wagons through a breaking world....

Edited by Traslyn1
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Yeah, I usually save them as a screen shot and put it on my tablet. It's super handy, IMO. Never appreciated having the full world map on the inside either. Seemed every other chapter had me looking at the world map. 

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I have always enjoyed scanning the maps and making images of them. I don't know if it's helpful, or ethical?, but here is the Field of Merrilor as featured in AMoL.

 

Scan.jpg

Thanks! That is really helpful...for some reason, it never registered that it was in the Borderlands.

 

By the way, are the sisters from the Silver Swan ever shown? Do we learn what was up with them?

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Yeah, I usually save them as a screen shot and put it on my tablet. It's super handy, IMO. Never appreciated having the full world map on the inside either. Seemed every other chapter had me looking at the world map. 

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I'm dying to know just how the All-Mother harangues everyone into following her lead at FoM....

 

Personally I thought the FoM showdown between her and Rand gave pretty strong evidence that Halima had used Compulsion to turn Egwene against the Dragon.  Besides there being a line that referenced her headaches and Halima just prior to the meeting, Egwene is unreasonable and obstinate far beyond reason; and as much as I dislike Egwene she is not unreasonable by any stretch normally.  Her demands and expectations are absurd, she is unfailingly contrary no matter what he says and there are a lot of indications that Rand's nature as the Dragon is lost upon her (she thinks his effect on the land and making things grow is a trick of some sorts for example).  It has been a theory I found pretty solid for awhile now and I think this book bore it out.  

Egwene was not unreasonable. No more so than Rand. They each had half of the puzzle. Rand was right, the Seals had to be broken before the DO could be taken care of. Egwene was right in that it was her responsibility to break them, and find the exact time to do so. Which is pretty much what Moiraine enforced. As for killing the Dark One, Rand was dead wrong there, and Egwene was right to fear that plan. She was also right in pointing out that Rand could hardly command the armies from Shayol Ghul.

 

If Egwene had simply acceded to Rand's wishes, everything would have been lost. The reverse is true as well.

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I'm dying to know just how the All-Mother harangues everyone into following her lead at FoM....

 

Personally I thought the FoM showdown between her and Rand gave pretty strong evidence that Halima had used Compulsion to turn Egwene against the Dragon.  Besides there being a line that referenced her headaches and Halima just prior to the meeting, Egwene is unreasonable and obstinate far beyond reason; and as much as I dislike Egwene she is not unreasonable by any stretch normally.  Her demands and expectations are absurd, she is unfailingly contrary no matter what he says and there are a lot of indications that Rand's nature as the Dragon is lost upon her (she thinks his effect on the land and making things grow is a trick of some sorts for example).  It has been a theory I found pretty solid for awhile now and I think this book bore it out.  

 

Egwene was not unreasonable. No more so than Rand. They each had half of the puzzle. Rand was right, the Seals had to be broken before the DO could be taken care of. Egwene was right in that it was her responsibility to break them, and find the exact time to do so. Which is pretty much what Moiraine enforced. As for killing the Dark One, Rand was dead wrong there, and Egwene was right to fear that plan. She was also right in pointing out that Rand could hardly command the armies from Shayol Ghul.

 

If Egwene had simply acceded to Rand's wishes, everything would have been lost. The reverse is true as well.

Egwene had the same portion of the puzzle she has always had, which is exactly 0. Of course this is my opinion, but I fear its little more  than the usual "Listen to me, because (a) I am the All-Mother, and (b) I will turn out to have been right all along, because in this universe only females can be ever be right, in order to promote their mystical wisdom"

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I get the impression that RJ and Team Jordan have sometimes worked under the impression that all WoT fans have read the Big White Book, which does talk about Shara in some detail. Some of that info has come out in the book itself, but it's mostly contained there. Based on my own experiences, a surprisingly small number have, or have not revisited in many years, so some of the elements in the book which become more important in the novels later on indeed feel like they've come out of nowhere.

 

 

I actually have the Big White Book, though admittedly I haven't read it in a (long) while. My memory of Shara from reading the BWB and the novels is that it is at a much lower level of development compared to the Westlands - which is why I find the numbers of channelers (and their sophistication) hard to believe.

 

Either way, putting myself into the shoes of The Average Reader, I find the whole Sharan storyline very hard to believe. As someone else said on the forums, it may be a case of Jordan being too subtle with his foreshadowing, but I don't really buy that. Would be nice to hear what Sanderson or Team Jordan have to say about this, if someone gets a chance to ask.

 

This is one of the things the books are about, that they are just another turning of the Wheel. There is nothing 'special' about this revolution. To be fair, if I recall RJ was asked this during the old Tor Q&A days and did say that there wasn't anything special about this particular revolution (which would have ruled out the 'killing the Dark One' possibility).

 

Ah I was not aware that RJ said that this particular turning was not special. I'm quite surprised at that. Doesn't that make the whole thing for naught? I agree that it's fitting philosophically and perhaps aesthetically, but it doesn't really make for a high stakes story.

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