Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Luckers

The aMoL 'Memories of Light' Releases

Recommended Posts

My first thought is Bashere and a ter'angreal that protects him from Zen Rand's presence, including the light that blinded Torkumen and drove him insane. I never bought into the Bashere is a darkfriend theory because he was around Rand so much, but this could make it possible.

 

Second thought was a mundane, Rand has an angreal or Sa'angreal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@herid-

thanks. Missed that one in the database. Though even with an angreal, if it's not in a class like Callendor or the CK, I don't know that it would have made Rand's ability to leave while shielded and inside the tower a foregone conclusion. He didn't even remotely seem worried there, nor when he spoke to the AS in Tear regarding his leaving.

 

@Cem Onal:

re: the construction of the eye. I suppose Moiraine could be wrong about that. But absent any indication (and given the lack of importance regarding the how- and the fact that Saidin is now clean anyway) I'm happy to assume she's correct and it was a throw-away line in an early book.

 

I like the idea of it being Demandred if only because it being Rand seems a too obvious giveaway. And it seems to contradict the whole point of the quote regarding the attack at the Manor house being on a par with Maradon in terms of Rand's power (despite there seeming to have been a leveling up since VoG.).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ehh, LTT understands the nature of Ta'veren. The tower couldn't hold him for the same reason its never been able to hold him, he can't fulfill the prophecies if he's chained up in the Tower. He's safe because he knows that, and they know it too. The Wheel pulled down one Amyrlin Seat to make way for his coming, it could pull down another. Or more simply, an earthquake or some other disturbance would make all the gathered AS lose Saidar and he would stroll out. Thats my take anyway, i don't much care for secret new powers popping out of nowhere.

Edited by mbuehner

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If it is Rand, I would assume it is a terangreal of some sort. Maybe something that allows him to split weaves easier or in greater numbers. Hard to say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i don't much care for secret new powers popping out of nowhere.

 

While he was probably safe because of the pattern making sure he'd be out and fulfilling prophecies, he does seem to manifesting, not necessarily new powers, but new levels of power. Taveren chance twisting made things that were highly unlikely much more likely. They didn't grow new massive bushels apples on trees in just a few minutes. That was related to his fisher king oneness with the land, but on an entirely new level. Causing something to spoil just seems to be a speeding up the 2nd law of thermodynamics. To get the land to create new food at a rapid rate is a much higher level than that. His ability to see DF's as well as to drive them crazy (Torkumen and his wife) is a new one, though it may be related to Fain's ability to see DFs that manifested in LOC.

 

That being the case, his ability to leave the tower could seem to be a leveling up of his Taveren nature and a more conscious control of it. Remember, in response to the question "you were in the tower and they just let you leave" he said "I didn't give them another option" or words to that effect.

 

The POV being from Demandred does raise a question though. What was he doing a Maradon? He didn't challenge Rand. And no one person seemed to stand out in attacks on the city. There were at lease six DF men channeling at the wall, according the Ashaman on the wall.

 

So if Demandred was there, what was he doing and what did he have that was a good to have and to keep secret?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

there is no indication of DF channelers at Maradon during the Rand scene. Neither Rand nor any of the Asha'man mention any. But it is possible that it's a Demandred POV and he is thinking of the earlier Maradon sequence when the wall was breached. Somebody did something very powerful there on the DF side.

Could have been Demandred with the fat man angreal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@herid

You are correct. During the Rand scene, there don't seem to be any channelers. But early, just before the wall breach one of the Ashaman (Deepe) says he can feel at least 6 channelers out there doing something.Then the explosion occurs.

 

I don't see Demandred down there working with 5 other channelers to help breach the wall at Maradon. He's a good general, who generally don't actually participate in battles. And after working with those channelers to breach the city, would he have fallen back and let Ituralde route the invaders so effectively, if he had something that gave him such help. Why would he help break into the city and then abandon the fighting to do other stuff. Rand said the DO wanted Maradon especially to fall, to strike at humanity and break their spirit and that's why he fought to defend it. If Demandred was there, would he have let Rand save it without fighting back?

 

As much as I like it not being the obvious (Rand) I don't see Demandred working.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

there is no indication of DF channelers at Maradon during the Rand scene. Neither Rand nor any of the Asha'man mention any. But it is possible that it's a Demandred POV and he is thinking of the earlier Maradon sequence when the wall was breached. Somebody did something very powerful there on the DF side.

Could have been Demandred with the fat man angreal.

the mentioning of channelers at maradon is before rand's storm of light, it's before the wall blows up one of the ashaman says he can sense channeling, and well it was more than implied that the wall blowing up was done by the power

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i don't much care for secret new powers popping out of nowhere.

 

While he was probably safe because of the pattern making sure he'd be out and fulfilling prophecies, he does seem to manifesting, not necessarily new powers, but new levels of power. Taveren chance twisting made things that were highly unlikely much more likely. They didn't grow new massive bushels apples on trees in just a few minutes. That was related to his fisher king oneness with the land, but on an entirely new level. Causing something to spoil just seems to be a speeding up the 2nd law of thermodynamics. To get the land to create new food at a rapid rate is a much higher level than that. His ability to see DF's as well as to drive them crazy (Torkumen and his wife) is a new one, though it may be related to Fain's ability to see DFs that manifested in LOC.

 

That being the case, his ability to leave the tower could seem to be a leveling up of his Taveren nature and a more conscious control of it. Remember, in response to the question "you were in the tower and they just let you leave" he said "I didn't give them another option" or words to that effect.

 

The POV being from Demandred does raise a question though. What was he doing a Maradon? He didn't challenge Rand. And no one person seemed to stand out in attacks on the city. There were at lease six DF men channeling at the wall, according the Ashaman on the wall.

 

So if Demandred was there, what was he doing and what did he have that was a good to have and to keep secret?

 

I agree with this, pretty much word for word.

 

As far as Demandred... and I really don't think its him, perhaps there is a portal stone bringing those armies in? A lot depends on how literal Jordan wanted to be about logistics. An army numbering hundreds of thousands of trollocs getting stymied for days or weeks outside Maradon would dissolve into starvation without massive logistic support (especially with its back to the blight). Theoretically, channelers could be busy creating gateways to feed the trolloc hordes of course. But that really just raises the question of where the food to feed all these shadowspawn has been coming from in the blight for centuries. One theory is that they arent really bred there at all, but a portal stone world (or more) conducive to breeding trollocs exists, and they are just brought in as needed. We've seen them used in that fashion to attack Perrin, for instance. Just a possibility. It might also explain that Demandred was considerably exhausted himself and in no condition to attack Rand. It would take a very powerful channeler to bring appreciable numbers of trollocs via portal stone, so not just any dreadlord is likely to be tasked to do so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Ism and @Ian this is exactly what I said - that it could have been Demandred in the sequence when the wall was breached. as for why he disengaged after that - whatever was done used a lot of power and he would have been tired even with an angreal. Once Rand showed up he likely would not want to tangle with him at the time.

The point about 5 or 6 other channelers is good though. If Demandred was there with the others he would have stood out in terms of power even without an angreal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Ism and @Ian this is exactly what I said - that it could have been Demandred in the sequence when the wall was breached. as for why he disengaged after that - whatever was done used a lot of power and he would have been tired even with an angreal. Once Rand showed up he likely would not want to tangle with him at the time.

The point about 5 or 6 other channelers is good though. If Demandred was there with the others he would have stood out in terms of power even without an angreal.

 

Perhaps the extra channelers are to mislead, similar to Graendal having Aran'gar and Delana lay weaves down to confuse anybody that might look. Unless there were women to make a circle, it might be odd to have 6 channelers anyway. Theyd have to be strong to work at that distance without risking a counterstrike right? He might have had the 5 Dreadlords doodling around to make it seem natural and then flattened the gate with his angreal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@herid- I guess it's possible he was tired and that's why he wasn't able to help with the defense. To be honest, though, given what we've seen of the power usage in battle (Rand at Tarwin's gap, Dumai's wells, the manor house, Rand by himself at Maradon), blowing up part of the wall doesn't seem to be all that big a deal, especially for 6+ channelers and one (possibly) with an angreal. Don't see why he would be so tired. It's not a continuous weave that has to be maintained or anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Ian ok, you may be right about it. It's hard to say, given some inconsistency in how BS describes these things in the books and in the interviews.

 

@mbuehner I don't see a point for Demandred to hide his strength in that scene. Why should he?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@herid- I guess it's possible he was tired and that's why he wasn't able to help with the defense. To be honest, though, given what we've seen of the power usage in battle (Rand at Tarwin's gap, Dumai's wells, the manor house, Rand by himself at Maradon), blowing up part of the wall doesn't seem to be all that big a deal, especially for 6+ channelers and one (possibly) with an angreal. Don't see why he would be so tired. It's not a continuous weave that has to be maintained or anything.

 

Distance may have been a factor. If you blow up a wall 20 metres away it might be easy. If you blow up a wall 1km away it would be tougher

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@herid- yeah seems unlikely. But that disappoints me since it would have been cool if it was demandred. Seems too easy to be Rand and seems to retcon his abilities at Maradon, if it is an angreal he used there.

 

@vels- still,with 5 other channelers and an angreal, even creating a massive one time weave to break through the wall shouldnt exhaust him. Think of Rand systematically destroying hilltops from a distance in the battle of cairhien. He was one guy and it took doing that all day before he collapsed from exhaustion. Hard to believe something like working in concert with 5 others and an angreal even at distance would do the same to Demandred in such a short time.

Edited by Ian Ohlander

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No one knows that Rand has the true power. (I don't think this is the context, but I'm amazed that no one has mentioned it yet.)

No one who walks in the light knows that the shadow has Samma N'Sei (Not likely either, since "no one knew he had it", no him/them)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Now, the thing about in the White Tower is something different. [brandon smiles]"

 

There we go.

 

Rand is not the same guy he was as LTT. He has move beyond that now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@suttree- Not really sure i buy that the two are necessarily related. As i said above, i dont think he has new powers. As BS said his power is pretty much the same as in kod. But a difference can still exist between pre and post VoG. As fully integrated and at peace with himself , he has complete control of the abilities he always had. So that while he may not have any more potential powers then he did before, because he is not struggling with himself and because his full memories, he is able to use his abilities to a much greater degree and with more precision.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As fully integrated and at peace with himself , he has complete control of the abilities he always had. So that while he may not have any more potential powers then he did before, because he is not struggling with himself and because his full memories, he is able to use his abilities to a much greater degree and with more precision.

 

I can get behind this take, no doubt. But if that excerpt means what we think it does his "super power" elevation is false.

Edited by Suttree

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My $0.02 is that it IS Rand, and it is a angreal or sa'angreal or ter'angreal of some sort. It would be cool if it is misdirection and really refers to a DF of some sort, maybe a channeler (or Bashere). Anyway, easier to speculate if it is Rand.

 

I don't think creating a well inside oneself via an Eye of the World is very likely, though an interesting idea. Didn't dozens of male channelers (or more?) die to help form enough of the Power to fill the Eye? Where would Rand get the ability to get so much of saidin? Certainly weren't any other male channelers in VoG that I could see. Plus, I always thought the ability/hint that Rand could have escaped the Tower was because of his ability to tap into the True Power (if they tried to cut him off or did cut him off from saidin) and his bonus Buddha-Rand ta'veren-ness, which essentially prevented it from ever coming to that.

 

I don't remember a description of Rand wearing a sword at Maradon, I think Ituralde would have noticed. Please correct me if there is evidence to the contrary there. So that seems to eliminate Justice and Callandor.

 

I think the dagger that hides one from the DO is a possibility. The strongest one. He appears to have it on the cover (though he also has Callandor, which hasn't happened yet). While it might not have prevented the DO/DFs from knowing he is there ONCE he started channeling (or from figuring it out), it would have prvented the DO from finding him before that, which would have been very useful. It may have allowed him to get in, win the fight, and get out before more forces could be brought to bear. And we know Forsaken aren't too enthusiastic about arriving on the scene with Rand loaded for bear. Plus

 

The Ring of Tamyrln and the fat man and the man with the sword (or any other sa'angrea/angreal) are probably the most likely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My $0.02 is that it IS Rand, and it is a angreal or sa'angreal or ter'angreal of some sort. It would be cool if it is misdirection and really refers to a DF of some sort, maybe a channeler (or Bashere). Anyway, easier to speculate if it is Rand.

 

I don't think creating a well inside oneself via an Eye of the World is very likely, though an interesting idea. Didn't dozens of male channelers (or more?) die to help form enough of the Power to fill the Eye? Where would Rand get the ability to get so much of saidin? Certainly weren't any other male channelers in VoG that I could see.

Rand was using Choedan Cal in VoG. That would provide him a lot more saidin that 100 male channelers put together and then some.

 

Plus, I always thought the ability/hint that Rand could have escaped the Tower was because of his ability to tap into the True Power (if they tried to cut him off or did cut him off from saidin) and his bonus Buddha-Rand ta'veren-ness, which essentially prevented it from ever coming to that.

RJ said that being shielded against OP also shield one from using TP. and really, I can't understand why the idea that Rand post VoG would willingly use TP is so popular. TP is the essence of the DO and Rand now knows that very well now. Rand using it for any reason is absolutely out of the question IMO unless he is turned.

 

 

I don't remember a description of Rand wearing a sword at Maradon, I think Ituralde would have noticed. Please correct me if there is evidence to the contrary there. So that seems to eliminate Justice and Callandor.

 

No swords are mentioned when Rand channels at Maradon. and in any case, it couldn't be Callandor because it has to be used in a circle. It's also not at all a secret that Rand has Callandor so this hardly fits the released hint. Callandor also glows when in use so it would be very noticeable. I believe it also has to be touched to be used and Rand is not holding it in his hand in that scene.

 

I think the dagger that hides one from the DO is a possibility. The strongest one. He appears to have it on the cover (though he also has Callandor, which hasn't happened yet). While it might not have prevented the DO/DFs from knowing he is there ONCE he started channeling (or from figuring it out), it would have prvented the DO from finding him before that, which would have been very useful. It may have allowed him to get in, win the fight, and get out before more forces could be brought to bear. And we know Forsaken aren't too enthusiastic about arriving on the scene with Rand loaded for bear. Plus

 

The Ring of Tamyrln and the fat man and the man with the sword (or any other sa'angrea/angreal) are probably the most likely.

 

I don't believe Rand has the dagger yet. He doesn't know about it.

Elayne has the dagger and she might give it to him at Merrilor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No one knows that Rand has the true power. (I don't think this is the context, but I'm amazed that no one has mentioned it yet.)

 

True power was the very first thing I thought of. Would explain why it was important no one else knew.

 

RJ said that being shielded against OP also shield one from using TP. and really, I can't understand why the idea that Rand post VoG would willingly use TP is so popular. TP is the essence of the DO and Rand now knows that very well now. Rand using it for any reason is absolutely out of the question IMO unless he is turned.

 

I'm not sure about that. Rand knows it's a bad idea, sure. But I think he'd still channel TP at extreme need. Could tie in with him later saying it was a mistake.

 

Btw, I'm not suggesting that Rand's awesome channeling at Maradon was due to TP use. I was thinking of it more as an emergency top-up of some sort, like using TP to wash away exhaustion perhaps. After all, the line only said it was "useful". If Rand's channeling display was due to an angreal, it would have been more than just "useful" IMO.

Edited by wintermute

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My first thought is Bashere and a ter'angreal that protects him from Zen Rand's presence, including the light that blinded Torkumen and drove him insane. I never bought into the Bashere is a darkfriend theory because he was around Rand so much, but this could make it possible.

Had the exact same thought the moment I read that line.

 

I think it's a Bashere PoV, where we learn why he's a Darkfriend and expect something that we've seen from Ingtar (Ingtar served as a 'little Bashere').

Bashere is idly playing with the dagger he threw at Rand back in LoC when he's pondering and then thinks that line.

I also hope we'll learn in the PoV that the dagger was given to him by Moridin near Shayol Ghul the moment he sends Bashere to the Royal Palace by a gateway.

 

*crosses fingers*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...