Dark Prophecy from ToM

[Cybertrolloc]

So got to the end and there's this.

 

I imagine most of the Dragon Prophesies are from Foretellings, but that isn't certain. Some can be very general (or at least seem pretty general) like the book front/back pieces. Others can refer to a specific event like the Asmodean one (Rhuidean fight + chaining him). Of course we don't know too much about how they're structured and they don't seem to match up well with the few examples there are i.e. Elaida or Nicola.

 

Additionally Prophecy isn't certain, it's only the set up to events in some ways (meh, for a given value of certain and predestination and other yucky things).

 

So if it's a things that happen at a certain time deal, what does that give us to go on (considering we don't have much on what Perrin and Rand are doing while Mat is in Finnland, even if that's what Towers of Mourning refer to)? Especially since Mat isn't one-eyed yet, but coming up with something for one of the guard captains with Perrin or Uno seems a stretch :)

 

I'm thinking it might be something still to come, but we don't know how long Mat and co. were in Finnland yet. And of course the FAQ still interprets some prophesies differently than me, and that should be fixed.

 

So we'll need:

1) one-eyed fool in Towers of Mourning, whatever that is.

2) first among vermin: Rand breaking seals or at least considering it?

3) last days of Fallen Blacksmith's pride: Perrin still being emo? wah.

4) broken wolf whom death has known death shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers, whatever they are besides a book title. And weeping and loss of will when that happens.

 

Even if we have 1 and 3 with 2 coming soon maybe, where's that leave 4...

 

Granted Itulrade in Maradon got a lot of space this book, and Rand thinks it's an important symbol that they not fail there too. Bit of attention from any of the Forsaken would have sealed the deal there, but time-wise that came earliest even though most stuff is log-jammed into a few days in ToM.

[Eht Slat Meit]

 

So we'll need:

1) one-eyed fool in Towers of Mourning, whatever that is.

2) first among vermin: Rand breaking seals or at least considering it?

3) last days of Fallen Blacksmith's pride: Perrin still being emo? wah.

4) broken wolf whom death has known death shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers, whatever they are besides a book title. And weeping and loss of will when that happens.

 

Even if we have 1 and 3 with 2 coming soon maybe, where's that leave 4...

 

Epilogue of ToM and Prologue of AMoL is my guess. The passage involving the red-veiled Aiel indicates that the Borderlands are falling, and with an opening to AMoL involving the deaths of the Borderland rulers and their armies, the Broken Crown passes to Faile and Perrin, becoming the Broken Wolf, but with the Broken Wolf's armies fallen and its cities consumed, there is nothing to rule over.

 

Which will no doubt shake the will of the world and cause a hellovalot of fear. I mean... they're the defenders of civilized lands against the Blight for the last umpteen centuries.

 

Resolves conflict of interest, though it may not matter to Perrin much if Slayer kills him.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Too many murky terms to come up with a definitive answer.

 

What did the writer of the prophecy mean by "Midnight Towers"?

Is it 'death' as in cessation of life, or 'Death' as in a synonym for Moridin's name? To some extent Moridin knows all of the "usual suspects" here.

 

All we can be reasonably certain of is that the "Broken Wolf" is sufficiently well known as a symbol of the supremacy of The Light that his ( or her ) loss will serve to undermine morale. Among the well known to be associated with "wolf" is also Ituralde.

 

Jordan gives us one other small tidbit that may bear on this problem - Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 24, Min speaking:

... "Logain's aura still speaks of glory, stronger than ever. Maybe he still thinks he's the real Dragon Reborn. And there's something ... dark ... in the images I saw around Lord Davram. If he turns against you or dies ... I heard one of the soldiers say Lord Dobraine might die. Losing even one of them would be a blow. Lose all of them, and it might take you a year to recover."

 

Logain hasn't been seen or heard from since he forced the SeaFolk to transport supplies to Arad Doman. When we last saw Dobraine, he was barely clinging to life despite the best the Aes Sedai could do to heal him. Davram Bashere has always been both too good to be true and too secretive to be trustworthy.

 

Of those who are capable of actually interacting with the wolves, the one who gave up his humanity and became pure wolf is a non-entity, Elyas is really known only to the AS to whom he is bonded, and Perrin is unknown to those not in his immediate orbit. None has shoes big enough to fit the prophecy.

 

Mat is known by both death and Death, and as Prince of the Ravens is subject to being cast into the Towers of Midnight if Fortuona even looks at him sidewise. His even temporary loss would be a severe blow to the Light and the morale of the Light's troops.

 

Problem is it's really tough to characterize him as a "Broken Wolf."

[Hyronimus]

Hi there, made my case for Ituralde on the original thread for this and while Still think this is likely for a number of reasons that I've already outlaid (and yes I'm also just plain stubborn)i recently noticed this quote which doesn't really help me much.

 

P831 ToM Perrin says

he was coming into the wolf dream too strongly; trying to control this place absolutely was like trying to contain a wolf in a box

 

Noting the wolf being contained in a box and how very impossible this is. Also the foresadowing for Rand in the dream and the shadows atempts to lead him, well I have to admit it speaks to Terez's (I believe she was first with this)idea of Rand being the broken wolf, sigh.

 

Not that I'm convinced,

[FarShainMael]

"And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself. "

 

I still think that this is (a) talking about someone different, not the Broken Wolf; and (b) it refers to the destruction likely to be caused by Aludra's 'dragons' Take a look at this:

 

..the nightflower bloomed in the darkness above Runnien Crossing, a great ball of red and green streaks. It bloomed again and again in his dreams that night and for many nghts after, but there it bloomed among charging horsemen and massed pikes, rending flesh as he had once seen stone rent by fireworks. In his dreams, he tried to catch the things with his hands, tried to stop them, yet they rained down in unending streams on a hundred battlefields. In his dreams, he wept for the death and destruction. And somehow it seemed that the rattling of the dice in his head sounded like laughter. Not his laughter. The Dark One's laughter.

[myth87]

I ended up going Perrin since he has had the wolf thing going on since the beginning and most peps, myself included, think his number is up. That could justify a double mention in the prophecy. If it is not him I think it is Lan.

[Southpaw89]

The Broken Wolf has to be Rand. Perrin dying or Lan dying would not bring sorrow to the hearts of men. It would be sorrow to their men and loved ones but not what the message is saying which is talking about the world basically. Rand dying, The Dragon Reborn dying, would shake the world.

[Smiddywesson]

After re-reading the prophecy I have to lean toward Rand as well. Mat is already mentioned (One Eyed Fool) as is Perrin (Fallen Blacksmith). Also in the last half of the prophecy the Broken Champion is mentioned and this seems to clearly be Rand. The similar phrasing, Broken Wolf-->Broken Champion, makes me associate them as the same person.

 

 

Thats the issue, if you were going to refer to someone twice by different names it would be very different, you wont call him broken wolf and broken champion, on the other hand broken champion and first among vermin may work. You just wont see him called BROKEN twice.

 

The trouble with that very logical argument is found in the first part of the prophecy: “In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith’s pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.”

 

The First Among Vermin is likely to be Rand or Perrin, because either one or the other is going to clear away the rubble and break the seals, but each is referred to later in the prophecy with a different handle: Perrin - Fallen Blacksmith, and Rand - Broken Champion. So, the prophecy DOES seem to use more than one name for the same person. Once that concept is accepted, I believe it is Matt.

 

Mat has known death. Perrin will be too busy at the bore to lead the wolf's head army, and Matt will undoubtedly be leading the combined forces of the light. Which army is a shoo-in to vanguard this battle but the army of Manetheren? Is it likely Matt will lead from the back? The "destruction" of the Wolf's Head troops at the vanguard will likely dismay everyone and break their will. Robert Jordan didn't drag Tam al Thor and Papa Cauthin all the way to Tarmon Gai'don to let them sit it out on the sidelines.

 

My guess is Mat. Jack of Shadows, Trickster, Prince of Ravens, One Eyed Fool, and Broken Wolf

 

"Blood and bloody ashes, now I've earned another bloody nickname" - Mathew Cauthin

[Terez]

The 'anyone but Rand' arguments just keep getting more and more ridiculous...

[Durinax]

Ituralde dying could be big enough to dismay the forces of the light, the loss of any great general would be enough to shake the wills of most common soldiers (aka men)

[Cybertrolloc]

Ituralde dying could be big enough to dismay the forces of the light, the loss of any great general would be enough to shake the wills of most common soldiers (aka men)

Possibly, but we don't know what Ituralde has been up to since 4 days before FoM and 3 before Mat went to Finns.

 

I'm also wondering what consumed could mean, maybe Dem eats the Wolf :)

[Terez]

I'm also wondering what consumed could mean...

A red blur drifted across the mirrors. He spun, trying to catch it, but in every mirror it drifted behind his own image and vanished. Then it was back again, but not as a blur. Ba'alzamon strode across the mirrors, ten thousand Ba'alzamons, searching, crossing and re-crossing the silvery mirrors.

 

He found himself staring at the reflection of his own face, pale and shivering in the knife-edge cold. Ba'alzamon's image grew behind his, staring at him; not seeing, but staring still. In every mirror, the flames of Ba'alzamon's face raged behind him, enveloping, consuming, merging. He wanted to scream, but his throat was frozen. There was only one face in those endless mirrors. His own face. Ba'alzamon's face. One face.

 

 

[myth87]

Rand and Lan are described as staking and being dangerous as wolves so it is conceivable it is them. Ituralde and Lan may not be big characters like Perrin or Mat but lets be fair, (for all those literal folks out there) only a few know and would be affected by Mat or Perrins deaths also. Their deaths are likely to cause as big a stir among the light forces because they are major generals and friends of Rands. Yet the same could be said for Ituralde (who seems to be Rands top in the field general so far since Mat isn't there and Bashere is more like his bodyguard) or for Lan (who just reunited his people and is a presence in the Blight). They are counted on by Rand they are his friends, if not since childhood, and big generals in this game. Lan is a legend among all men. He is the king without a country, a sword master, possibly the best of the age. He is more famous than Mat, Perrin, or Ituralde, so the argument for him is just as likely.

 

The question is how literal do you interpret the prophecy. If you interpret the hearts of men to be some men (cause that is what it is saying, hearts of men could even be one man) It could be anybody since the death of any of those mentioned would bring sorrow/depression/distracting anger to others. If you interpret it as all men (and from things I have read in the past I know Terez likes literal interpretations :p) it would have to be Rand, no death aside from his would affect all men, light and dark forces alike.

[FarShainMael]

Remember that the phrase in the Dark Prophecy is 'his destruction', not 'his death'. That phrase has at least three meanings: his death; destruction of him short of death, like Mesaana (see ToM Glossary); or destruction by him (which is why I favour Mat and his dragons).

 

ETA: The more I read about Ituralde, the more he seems to me likely to be the Broken Wolf.

[Cybertrolloc]

ETA: The more I read about Ituralde, the more he seems to me likely to be the Broken Wolf.

Anything in particular? Any ideas what he could be up to?

[FarShainMael]

ETA: The more I read about Ituralde, the more he seems to me likely to be the Broken Wolf.

Anything in particular? Any ideas what he could be up to?

 

Just that there are a lot of references to him in the KoD chapters as the Little Wolf. He's seen a lot of death. He's one of the Great Captains; I can see him being a prime target for someone like Demandred (one of the 'midnight towers'?). How, exactly, I couldn't say, I'm no sort of military strategist; it just 'feels right' in narrative terms.

 

One other point: he visited Lady Basene in LoC6.. aka Graendal.. who is very good at Compulsion.

[eweiss]

I believe the entire "dark prophecy" is meant to be a single statement, in two parts, referencing what will happen to a single character. The references to Mat (fool) and Rand (Vermin) provide context to when the events surrounding the statements focal point character will occur.

 

The statement structure is more of an antiquated style of English, which I believe was intentionally done to cause confusion and muddle its meaning. However, it seems clear to me that both the "Blacksmith" and the "Broken Wolf" are references to Perrin, who is the focus of the two part statement.

 

The first half of the statement frames the time when the end of the Blackmith's "pride" will occur. My inference is that this will be an event of some sort that will lead to his "breaking" which is referenced in the second half of the statement.

 

My theory on this "ending of pride" has to do with the death of Faile. It has been heavily suggested that some significant characters will die and there has been quite a bit of effort put into exploring Perrin's psyche as it relates to how he is impacted by danger or hurt befalling Faile. (exhaustively)

 

Perrin has clearly stated during his pursuit/rescue of Faile that he is, and would be unable to, think of anyone or anything else when his wife's well-being is concerned. Perrin has also alluded to how his worst decisions in life have been made when he is hasty and rushes into action without thought or consideration.

 

Perrin is clearly going to be one of the main field-Marshall's of The Light. It is painfully obvious that Faile is going to accompany him to war as it is both Saldeaen culture and one of Perrin's major pain-points during interactions where she insists on following him into danger. I believe she will be killed the defense of Perrin's life, potentially by saving him from her own father - which may fit the "awesome/cruel" death reference from Sanderson's tweet.

 

This event would clearly "break" Perrin, thus as his "pride" aka Faile, would fall and he become the "Broken Wolf". Due to the foreshadowed reckless abandon Perrin experiences at Faile's peril, I believe HE will, in turn, die avenging her against impossible odds. Clearly Perrin has "known Death" in both senses of the word, as he has lost his love as well as his family - who were killed by Mordeth. Death is clearly a duel concept here, but one does not have to die in order to know death. The loss of all he loves fulfills this.

 

Now, most have assumed that only Rand can afford to die and still maintain the prophecied need for all three Ta'varen to be "together" for the light to triumph over the dark. However, we have learned a few things regarding the world of dreams as it pertains to Perrin and other characters as well. As a "Wolf Brother" Perrin may very well dwell in the Dream after his death. He also could very easily be a "Horn Hero". Either way, I believe it is safe to assume that Perrin can be "destroyed" in the mortal world without being removed from the equation.

 

My theory is that Perrin will contribute to the cause by aiding Rand within the Dream realm, this fulfilling his obligation to assist in the lights triumph. Subsequently, I believe Perrin will remain in the dream world because the wolves represent his last remaining family. I do think that one or both of Rand's deaths will involve the Dream realm and that he will be "extracted" from it as Birgitte was. On a side note, I do feel strongly that Rand's second death will lead to his disappearance in both worlds and that it will be Mat - bravely soldiering on alone - who blows the horn, thus resurrecting both Hero's in time to vanquish evil and save the day.

 

Truly the visible death of one or both of these great champions would shake the souls and bring despair to the hearts of men. It also would serve as a plausible way for Rand to have the strength needed to truly battle the GLotD. (Fain, for sure, is getting tossed into the PoD to balance the evils and allow for the seal, but that is another topic.

 

I think this sequence of events satisfies all the parameters of the prophecies as we know them. There are also sub-tenets that play off of these scenarios perfectly:

 

1. Moridin & Demandred both getting to kill Rand

2. Slayer, Moghedien, Lanfear all dying in the Dream realm (vs Rand, Perrin, & others.)

3. Rand "dying" while still being able to "be with" those he loves (within the Dream)

 

So, long story....long - Perrin's fall and destruction is the base of the Shadow Prophecy - they're just losers so they don't realize the jokes on them.

[johan90]

Could it be farstrider/noal? Fall and Consumed in midnight towewers = killed in the finnland towers or cut down in fighting (fall) by creatures that feed of feelings (consume), a little vague not knowing just what the midnight towers refer to but still close since they live in towers in some strange world/reality. Death has known him = assumed to a have been dead or whereabouts unknown now dies properly. Maybe the most accepted famous person which everyone looks up to due to his heroic quests (hearts tremble). And it all happens when the one eyed fool (mat) travels the finnland (halls of mourning) and Rand decides/anounces that he is going to break the seals. Just seems like a to insignificant character though to have such a big place/effect in the phrophecy.

 

Disclaimer i cant remember would wrote it on here but it was someone elses idea originally and not mine

[tkroll]

Its Bran Stark! wait a minute....wrong series.......

 

I think its Perrin. The prophecies all seem to tie directly to Rand, Mat, and Perrin, even if they aren't clear.

Lan- no real wolfish references. In fact I remember being compared to rock or called stone face more than anything.

Ituralde- brilliant commander but don't see how it could be him.

Noam- Possibly but no one has heard of Noam, at least not yet. What's the point of a prophecy if the subject always remains unheard of? Same argument works for Elyas or Hopper.

Slayer- seems like he would be more of a twisted wolf than a broken one.

[johan90]

But its not about Noam persee but Jain Farstrider which quite possible, besides rand, LTT and the forsaken is the most famous person in randland. From how the main characters reflects on reading "the tales of jain farstrider" bringing him down in some way could create som sorrow. But i agree it does not fit the whole grand and epic thing going on with the rest of the prophecy. But it has to be someone that is widely recognized and famous that has inspired a lot of people and that is why i dont think it is someone like Ituralde either cause he is probably not to widely known beyond persons with a military background. For example, besides his home nation and a few others his death would most likely not bring much sorrow/upset to many other nations and people.

 

I dont think that section is about Perrin either because he has his part as do Mat and Rand, so i believeit should be someone else that is being mentioned. Unless as Lanfear stated he is more than he knows and more than has been revealed. Considering Perrins as a character has not progress much in the later books it could be that he yet has some growing to do.

 

I guess will see in about a years time how it will pan out.

[WhiskyJack]

It is Lan.

It is known, Khalesi.

[csnyder]

Does Broken Wolf mean a Shadow-turned Perrin (despite me voting Slayer)?

 

And Gitara Moroso sent Tigraine and Luc - Tigraine served the Light, where Luc ultimately serves/d the Dark

albeit 'broken', if you will. I just think that this broken combination of Slayer is going to break free

of the manipulation of the Forsaken and try to take a couple of them out before being 'consumed' by the

Towers of Midnight (= killed by a/the Forsaken, ultimately only one survives and gains considerable height during Egwene's dream?).

[TheAngryDruid]

It seems to me impossible for both the Shadow prophecies and those of the Light to be fulfilled, as the have different endings to the same tale. They can't both be true. Either the Dragon Reborn saves the world from the DO, or the DO triumphs. Both are NOT going to happen. Ergo, the both can't be true. And plus, we already know Ishy has corrupted Seanchan prophecy.

 

For instance, the Dark Prophecy about Lanfear at Fal Dara, that her know lover (Rand) will serve her and die, yet serve still. That isn't likely to happen. Maybe a stretch on serving (saving?) her, but if he dies, he will cease to serve her, unless he goes over to the Shadow. And that is not happening.

 

Or the very same prophecy we are debating states the DO shall destroy all save those who worship him. "There shall be none but Him, and those that have turned their eyes to His majesty."

 

Frankly, no matter what Brandon says, I don't see how this is compatible with the prophecies of the Light. One is going to be wrong. Up to a point, both they aren't mutually exclusive, but after a point, they are. Regardless, the idea that BOTH sets are going to be fulfilled (or that both are absolute) just doesn't hold water with me.

[wcbrooks]

just looking at soem Olde English (Shakespeare days), some grammar and the way it is written and there is....Yea, which is an agreement with the above statement and an addition to that...

 

So when the "...One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith’s pride shall come..." - when know they are talking about people (not going to so who - not the point for this post) and when these come to pass

 

"...Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers..."

 

"Yea" - could mean 'yes and in addition to that previously stated' - so the Broken Wolf is different from from the 3 stated before. for example the Fallen Blacksmith and the Broken Wolf can not be Perrin or First among Vermin and Broken Wolf can not be Rand.

 

Also the full stop after "Midnight Towers. And his destruction..." - this might not even apply to the Broken Wolf but to anyone of the 4 people stated before.

 

maybe reading too much into the grammar and the way things are written but who knows

[thedragonstar]

Lanfears serve and die, but serve still could mean some continued connection in the dream world, or something Rand sets in motion contines (or triggered by) after his "death" that aids her in some way.