Chapter 2 Audio Available on Tor

[kght22]

This is interesting. I was quite unhappy with some of the first chapter (not all of it, but I had some major qualms), but most other people seemed to think it was good. The view seems to have changed with this chapter; I wonder how much of that has to do with the audio format. That was definitely...slow. I found myself thinking, "Wow twenty minutes have passed; what's happened exactly?"

 

Anyway, with the actual content, mistakes and all, I had the same problem I usually do with BS's WoT stuff, which is mainly the lack of effort. He quit his reread somewhere in TSR I think, and it really shows. I mean, it's uncommon to not reread your own books before continuing with a series, let alone someone else's, and let alone with a vast series like WoT. The mistakes are where it shows most evidently, but it effects the characterization and everything too. Considering the great opportunity BS was given with WoT, and the huge impact it's had on his career, it just seems...poor repayment. If he wasn't going to commit to it properly, he should have told them to give the task to someone else. With all the inconsistencies that we the fans have no problem seeing immediately...it just doesn't seem like he's as familiar with the series as you would hope. And I'm not sure how the editing team doesn't catch the more straightforward mistakes at least. Makes you wonder how many are in there originally I suppose.

 

Sorry, rant over; I just find the whole thing odd. I can't help but feel that something we enjoy is being treated with extreme cynicism.

he does make mistakes, just like you did: http://www.brandonsa...f light/page/53 think there might be another, gotta look closer.

 

ahh there ya go

more recent: http://www.theorylan...isplay.php?f=55

 

i'm guessing on that second re-read is what you are complaining about, but you might want to keep in mind that he said himself that large portions of the first (tsr) and last (amol) of the books that he is working on were already written and only needed edited in. anyway i will say what i would tell anyone, don't like it, don't read it, there are lots of people who don't read anything in tlotr beyond the ring trillogy and maybe the hobbit, because his son finished the rest.

[Olver_is_a_Forsaken]

he does make mistakes, just like you did: http://www.brandonsa...f light/page/53 think there might be another, gotta look closer.

 

ahh there ya go

more recent: http://www.theorylan...isplay.php?f=55

 

I think he did one re-read before starting A Gathering Storm. By the publication of Towers of Midnight (and subsequent complaints about plot/character errors) he said he was going to do another one (a complete re-re-read) -which I don't think he finished. Sorry if I misunderstood your post. Your edit confused me.

[kght22]

he does make mistakes, just like you did: http://www.brandonsa...f light/page/53 think there might be another, gotta look closer.

 

ahh there ya go

more recent: http://www.theorylan...isplay.php?f=55

 

I think he did one re-read before starting A Gathering Storm. By the publication of Towers of Midnight (and subsequent complains about plot/character errors) he said he was going to do another one (a complete re-re-read) -which I don't think he finished. Sorry if I misunderstood your post. Your edit confused me.

my apologies for that, i actually didn't follow any re-reads, but i knew that he had atleast done one when he started, and i heard about another. hell my links don't even go directly to a list of all of his blogs while reading through either time, i just googled sanderson wot reread. i know he finished the first one, and i remember after the second book that he was planning to do another. i guess that is the one where he stopped at loc?

[yoniy0]

Testy, can you honestly not see the difference between quitting Middle Earth after Return of the King and tWoT after Knife of Dreams? Not liking how the final three books have been handled is a far cry from giving up on reading them -- after all we all do want to know how the story ends, whatever else we might wish we could read.

[elric]

and BTW Christopher (the son) didnt finish squat.

 

he took Tolkien UNFINISHED drafts , and publish it as full books.

 

here have this DOE my dead famous shef Father plan to cook it into a cake -> kind of attidute and editing.

[Randommer]

I was referring to the most recent reread; TGS was a while ago at this point. Also, defend BS's work all you want, but people are perfectly entitled to ciriticise his work and keep reading it. I'm a WoT fan and will remain so, but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to criticise Sanderson. I mention it if I like something and I mention it if I don't like something. He's a professional writer, and I'm sure he's used to criticism being part of the gig.

[Suttree]

I was referring to the most recent reread; TGS was a while ago at this point. Also, defend BS's work all you want, but people are perfectly entitled to ciriticise his work and keep reading it. I'm a WoT fan and will remain so, but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to criticise Sanderson. I mention it if I like something and I mention it if I don't like something. He's a professional writer, and I'm sure he's used to criticism being part of the gig.

 

Of course Random, to suggest otherwise is ludicrous. Imagine that...actually critiquing a work of literature!!!

 

On this note, I know I posted something from Dom at TL yesterday but his feelings mirror my own pretty closely. This take did a very good job of explaining some of the issues.

 

Dom

 

Originally Posted by Terez

Dom—That reminds me of something that bothered me in the prologue that I never mentioned. Androl thinking about how clever Emarin was with insults. If your characters are being clever with insults, you don't have to insult the intelligence of your readers by saying so, nor do you have to diminish the maturity of your character by having him say so.

Yes, that's it exactly. It's the KevinJAndorsonitis all right.

 

It's like Brandon can't just put "insert a really clever insult here" as he drafts, and later actually spend the necessary time and intellectual effort to come up with one.

 

In that respect, his and plotting and writing are terribly lazy. He doesn't take the time to polish his dialogue. Instead of making the effort to come up with a very intelligent exchange and demonstrating the intelligence by adding subtext and inner thoughts of the POV character, he just writes a stupid line and spells out the character is supposed to be very intelligent. It's very annoying.

 

The other very bad and lazy habit he's developped is that instead of making the effort of studying the thought patterns, the little languages quirks that made each character unique, he seems to go through a personal/cultural catalogue or checklist. The way Brandon writes Aviendha, you'd think she came out of the Waste a few days ago, not to mention that it's like she's going in circles, thinking about the same topics since TGS. He's got few RJ-written POVs to work with, so he keeps using the same Aiel cultural stuff over and over again (mind you, when he invents new ones or picks some from the notes he tries to integrate, it's generally even worse...). It's astounding the space Brandon loses giving us information and observations that not only don't fit well, but that so late in the series we don't need all the while not making the efforts of including the stuff we would need. Those inner thoughts are vital, they each followed a unique pattern and they played a large part in making the characters feel like who they were. And the number of extraneous scenes, and extraneous action during scenes (must we "see" each and every messenger a character sends or receives? What happened to character noticing the other left an unopened letter on the table?)) is simply astounding, it's like Brandon never heard about ellipses (except, in his own books he's perfectly able to do that it's rather like he's never really managed to get a proper level of control over the WOT project, it continues to overwhelm him)

[Luckers]

Luckers, I'm curious why you say this...

 

"The discussion re: the Black and White Tower, the roles of the Red and all that was too reader-aware. Especially given Androl's apparent knowledge of the flaws of the modern Aes Sedai--something almost no one in Randland should actually be aware of, even those that hate the Aes Sedai. Perhaps if he'd had some sort of interaction with the Aiel it would make sense, but otherwise Brandon had Androl aware of facts not in evidence (for him)."

 

Androl's past is a mystery, but he certainly fills a sort of a Renaissance Man. He demonstrates an interest in the pursuit of knowledge. That would surely lead him to looking at the White Tower and AS. His comments on the flaws of the White Tower can be applied to many such inflexible organizations.

 

Which facts are not in evidence for him?

 

Well he does say he spent his entire life avoiding Aes Sedai, but in reality that is irrelevent. The point here is the faults of the Aes Sedai, the ones that lead them to be stuck in their ways, are nore readily percievable to the public at large. In fact, due to the extensive degree of their training, Aes Sedai often appear remarkably adaptable and very capable to the all who encountered them prior to the appearence of Rand. I

 

This is because their idiocies all stem to one point--their self-image as Aes Sedai. This is due to the fact that the Aes Sedai only take young impressionable girls already wowwed enough with the image of being Aes Sedai, sequester them for upwards of twenty years reinforcing that impression daily so that all new Aes Sedai are so impressed with the image of being Aes Sedai they dare not question it. This presents problems because this sense of self-worth is based in the ability to channel, and others have that, and thus you begin to get things like their worship of the Oaths as their definning attribute and their wilful ignorence of the negative sides of the Oaths both practical and ideological. You get their disdain for wilders and their utterly baseless ideas about how women put out of the Tower cease channel. You get their need to believe that men who start channeling have permitted some intentional moral sin by choice (which in truth wraps into the fact that they then have to do something to these men that if it happened to themselves they would regard it as their worst nightmare). Even things like their lack of active recruitment and their use of strength in the Power as the basis of their hierarchy in an act of absolute cognetive dissonance with the First Greatest Rudeness all tie back into this desperate, artificial, indoctrinated self-image.

 

And none of it is percievable under normal circumstances. In almost any situation an Aes Sedai could encounter pre-Rand she would have had specific detailed training in how to deal with it--and they are neither unintelligent or unaddaptive. It is only when they encounter something completely outside the strata of their education that they fall to pieces--Wise Ones, bullying Windfinders, Kinswomen numbers, damane, Asha'man and Dragon Reborns who channel saidin but can't be safely gentled (indeed in the White Towers acceptance of Elaida's plan to leash Rand despite the prophecies you see clearly just how deep the indoctrination runs and how unprepared they are for anything outside of it). It's no mistake that the sisters who maintained their capability into modern days were those who for whatever reason had been pushed outside of the Aes Sedai self image and forced to adapt--Verin, recruited into the Black Ajah against her inclination. Cadsuane, taught this lesson by Norla in the Black Hills, Saerin, originally a Daughter of Silence (and at one time, pre-Brandon, I would have added Pevara, a Red with a Green's temprement).

 

Androl had at best Pevara's surprise that the men weren't using strength (which could result from no more than say, an expectation in the barbarism of men who can channel) and the expectation that few men would take up the Dragon's call for men who channel that informed and led to the failure of Toveine's assault--which realistically is in no way a stupid expectation--though of course they probably should have done more research before launching the attack. Either way, the information at hand is not enough to provide Androl with the knowledge to realise despite the Aes Sedai's three thousand year, well earned track record of capability, adaptability and success that they have a deep ideological flaw that expresses itself in a lot of backward thinking and intransigence to change.

 

The reader knows this. Their conversation is precisely the sort of thing I could see readers discussing on the forums. But two in-world characters--no, they shouldn't have had that conversation, not without some sort of specific incident to bring it about--like the Wise Ones had with the kidnapping of Rand, or the Windfinders had with the Bargain with Elayne and Nynaeve, or the Kinswomen had watching the Windfinders treat the Aes Sedai like crap.

 

Ergo, I say the conversation was far too reader-aware. Brandon wrote it not with Pevara and Androl in mind, but with the readers in mind. It is but one of the many incidents in which Brandon uses the characters to speak to the reader, and it is disruptive to the fourth wall, to the integrity of the world, and to the integrity of the characters (in terms of their characterizations).

[kght22]

Testy, can you honestly not see the difference between quitting Middle Earth after Return of the King and tWoT after Knife of Dreams? Not liking how the final three books have been handled is a far cry from giving up on reading them -- after all we all do want to know how the story ends, whatever else we might wish we could read.

i finally found this message lmao, i was looking for it. yes i kind of get your point, but you also are not one who has nothing to say but "crappy author this and crappy author that" for a general paraphrase of what some i've seen do. i also have no problem when people complain about specifics of content, i'm still pissed off that sanderson didn't understand that it is blood and ashes, not bloody ashes. but i have no respect for someone who just unilaterally talks crap on sanderson and claims that he ruined the series. while there series doesn't feel the same in the books that sanderson put together, the story at least to me feels the same. just feels like my uncle had to start telling me the story after my dad died. it hurts, but at least i still get to hear the really good story he had been telling me for years. he knows what happened, he just isn't quite as articulate.

[Vassili]

If they fix the linking issue, (and I think they must, its just too big to cover up) I hope they address the issue of Pevara not being able to see Saidar when woven by a man. We can say with some certainty that whomever leads a mixed circle can see both halves of the Power in their own weaves, but unless leading a mixed circle allows one to see both halves of the Power in general, it would be impossible for Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends to pass on their knowledge of more advanced weaves involving Saidar and Saidin (like the weave protecting Callandor) to others. Furthermore, if Semihrange is any guide, male and female channelers had a working knowledge of how to form cross gender weaves. (The torture weave.) Men and women must have been able to show each other what they were doing. And while Pevara may not have been granted the ability to see Saidin since she wasn't in control, there is no reason she shouldn't see her own half of the Power regardless of where it came from. Consider that Grady and Neald saw Saidin as it was woven by the Bowl of the Winds even though no man was active in that link.

 

On another note, doesn't it seem as if Brandon is setting Androl up to be able to defeat the Dreamspike simply by linking with a woman? If that's all it takes to defeat it, it sure is not a very useful Ter'angreal and a horrible security device. In the AoL, men and women linked on a daily basis.

[Agitel]

The reader knows this. Their conversation is precisely the sort of thing I could see readers discussing on the forums. But two in-world characters--no, they shouldn't have had that conversation, not without some sort of specific incident to bring it about--like the Wise Ones had with the kidnapping of Rand, or the Windfinders had with the Bargain with Elayne and Nynaeve, or the Kinswomen had watching the Windfinders treat the Aes Sedai like crap.

 

If only there was some type of incident at the Black Tower that would have allowed Androl to observe Aes Sedai put out of their element.

 

Anyway, as for Avi, my impression before we even got to her excuse (note, this was as I reading, not me coming up with some plausible explanation afterwards) was that she just wanted to play the Maiden of the Spear again. As a Wise One, she couldn't just behave that way without coming up with some kind of justification. What she gave Elayne and told to herself was nothing more than an excuse.

[MountaineerWV]

Luckers,

 

I'm not saying that BS (and perhaps more importantly) the editing staff do not deserve some criticism, but I think you are off on this one.

 

Most of what you pointed out would only be identifiable to those with intimate knowledge of the White Tower, but that does not mean that those practiced in philosophy would be blind to the failings of the White Tower. Avoiding AS is not the same as avoiding knowledge of AS and the WT. The Children of the Light, at least, would have honed in on the failings of the WT.

 

In fact, many of the failings of the WT would also apply to the CotL and maybe the High Lords of Tear...and probably other organizations that simply were not mentioned.

[Suttree]

The Children of the Light, at least, would have honed in on the failings of the WT.

 

Whaaa? I can't think of any group in Randland whose true knowledge of AS would be blinded by bias and based more on unfounded half truths and rumors. Luckes has the right of it, the 4th wall was totally broken in this scene and Androl knows info that we as readers understand, but he most certainly would not.

[kght22]

If they fix the linking issue, (and I think they must, its just too big to cover up) I hope they address the issue of Pevara not being able to see Saidar when woven by a man. We can say with some certainty that whomever leads a mixed circle can see both halves of the Power in their own weaves, but unless leading a mixed circle allows one to see both halves of the Power in general, it would be impossible for Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends to pass on their knowledge of more advanced weaves involving Saidar and Saidin (like the weave protecting Callandor) to others. Furthermore, if Semihrange is any guide, male and female channelers had a working knowledge of how to form cross gender weaves. (The torture weave.) Men and women must have been able to show each other what they were doing. And while Pevara may not have been granted the ability to see Saidin since she wasn't in control, there is no reason she shouldn't see her own half of the Power regardless of where it came from. Consider that Grady and Neald saw Saidin as it was woven by the Bowl of the Winds even though no man was active in that link.

 

On another note, doesn't it seem as if Brandon is setting Androl up to be able to defeat the Dreamspike simply by linking with a woman? If that's all it takes to defeat it, it sure is not a very useful Ter'angreal and a horrible security device. In the AoL, men and women linked on a daily basis.

asmodean did imply that teaching rand would be easier if they brought in a woman (moiraine) to link. and i suspect he meant more than teaching rand to control saidin, but saidar as well. (if you read something nasty into this you should stab yourself in the eye with a pencil until the thought goes away)

[MountaineerWV]

Galad, who grew up with AS and spent time in the WT was fascinated by the original writings of Lothair. I think that the modern CotL are a very zealous corrupt group compared to the original intent - but that does not change that I think Lothair had some interesting observations of the WT and AS as a whole.

[MountaineerWV]

The WT is modeled on the Catholic Church, yes?

 

You don't think that people 1,500 years ago, 1,000 years ago, 500 years ago saw the failings of the Church? Not to say that everything the Church did was wrong, but surely historians or philosophers commented on it...

[Suttree]

Galad, who grew up with AS and spent time in the WT was fascinated by the original writings of Lothair. I think that the modern CotL are a very zealous corrupt group compared to the original intent - but that does not change that I think Lothair had some interesting observations of the WT and AS as a whole.

 

Hmm interesting, could you share with us what Lothair's insightful observations on the WT and AS are? You know aside from them all being DF's and evil. Seeing as how they started out as a priesthood dedicated to proselytizing against Darkfriends I'm curious to see where you stumbled across his heretofore unpublished in depth study of AS. Do tell.

 

The WT is modeled on the Catholic Church, yes?

 

No it's not. As everything in the WoT there are bits and pieces sure but not to the extent which you imply. Never the less we have gotten very far a field. You have provided not a shred of evidence to support your original point about Androl.

[shortkut]

The Children of the Light, at least, would have honed in on the failings of the WT.

 

Whaaa? I can't think of any group in Randland whose true knowledge of AS would be blinded by bias and based more on unfounded half truths and rumors. Luckes has the right of it, the 4th wall was totally broken in this scene and Androl knows info that we as readers understand, but he most certainly would not.

hyperbole much? It was not broken but cracked. Broken would essentially have him talking to us or to the narrator.

[kght22]

i have to say that given androl's apparently colorful past, we really have no idea what he knows. although i do agree that it is unlikely he knows much about aes sedai, it is actually conceivable at this point that he is a warder who at a much younger age survived the warder rage of the death of his aes sedai. it would explain him avoiding aes sedai, especially if it was a member of the black ajah who killed her. entirely unlikely, but i still find it possible.

 

(edit: double negative much)

edit2: it might even explain his cliff diving, and being around sea folk.

[Ishy_Reborn]

Let me preface this with I have been boozing at a charity event all night and am typing this on my phone:

 

So, I have been an off an on again member of this community for years. I love WoT I know the original Mazzy, my username here use to be Ishmael before it got fancy. Long story short I have either been an active member or just a reader. To the point I have been reading a lot of negative commentary about Sanderson.

 

I had no clue who he was when he took over for RJ I read all his books. I enjoyed them thoroughly. I can honesty say I am thankful that heb picked up a WoT and finished it. I am uncertain of the interest a lot of authors would have in doing so. I think most would be more inclined to focus on their work. It can be argued its a pure money play driven by the exposure to RJ's world but C'est la'vie.

 

To the point I see a lot of discussion on BS's writing style and perceived as compared to RJ. It always makes me shake my head. A) we have an author trying to write another individuals characters B) an author trying to follow a half finished plot line. So, I understand (read: to a point) the audience's dissatisfaction ) but what I don't understand is the venom. This is to v expected given the change.

 

I can honestly say from book 5 on, I kept reading because i wanted to know what happened to the two rivers crew. RJ had lost control of the series. I do not say it was unemployable but from a literary perspective it was not within the gamit if what he began. A knife of dreams? Crown of thorns? C'mon man.. Not on say the books released by Sanderson where much better but c'mon idolising RJ as a literary genius is a bit much. I think a lot of us have just invested so much of our life into the books that it is hard to be objective.

 

So, I suppose the premise of this post is that while BS isn't Fitzgerald, for finishing the series and allowing me to see the two rivers folks finish out what RJ started I am thankful. Given that perhaps toning down the constant bitch feat on BS's writing would be nice.

 

On to AMOL, listening to chapter two was tough , I now know I don't like audio books. But! I enjoyed the BT as I have been eagerly waiting it. I am torn on the importance though given how little Logain/ Peveral / Etc have played a part to the plot that thu shoul be seminal to the plot going forward. However, as I have read here and agree the BT is too large of a weapon to not be a focal point of the last battle. I am excited about what is to come and disappointed in the blatent marketing piece that was chapter 2.

 

Last thought, Avi seems to be an afterthought? Perhaps tying up so many loose character and plot lines dating back to book three is too problematic?

 

Can we get more Mat? I know there were thoughts of outriggers but given the relative importance placed on the Seanchan it seems it should be prevalant. C'mon man chapter 11 in a bar listening to rumors of Tuon...

 

Cheers!

[Vassili]

I could name about a dozen other things Sanderson did that were far worse than making Androl overly insightful. He is hardly the first character to question Aes Sedai divinity. In fact, the majority of average joes we have met in this series have been distrustful and/or disdainful of Aes Sedai. I get what your saying; Androl spoke of Aes Sedai weaknesses in a way that most commoners would not be educated enough to understand. I just don't think those weaknesses are as hidden as you imply. We don't even know Androl's full background. His comments seem pretty in line with what a former noble might say.

[kght22]

and i thought i was drunk. i guess i have the luxury of a keyboard and a spelling warning.

 

EDIT: oh, and good post, although i think many might find it difficult to read. i had to rewrite parts of it in my head to understand what you were saying.

[Shaidar]

Just finished listening to it.

 

The Pevara/Androl scene was mediocre. 3/5 The Elayne/Aviendha scene was horrifically cringeworthy. 1/5

 

BS had better up his game. He can do good writing, but this chapter along with Chapter 11 was highly disappointing.

[Shaidar]

Also not to mention that forcing people to listen to the books is just fascist. I hate that TOR does this.

[Rufae]

Also not to mention that forcing people to listen to the books is just fascist. I hate that TOR does this.

 

Where were you forced to listen to it. Don't like it? Wait until January.

 

As to the 4th wall problem.... Who's to say that Androl doesn't have this knowledge? To assume that it is "reader only material" is a very shallow take on it.