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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Chapter 2 Audio Available on Tor


Luckers
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Sutt, I said it was hyperbole not because you said the fourth wAll was broken but because you said it was TOTALLY broken

 

Not sure why you would feel the need to split hairs but no worries. All good.

 

how us that splitting hairs? As you already mentioned, it is called breaking the fourth wall regardless of the extent to which it was broken. When you say totally broken for this instance, it is the same as saying a fender bender totaled your car
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Sutt, I said it was hyperbole not because you said the fourth wAll was broken but because you said it was TOTALLY broken

 

Not sure why you would feel the need to split hairs but no worries. All good.

 

how us that splitting hairs? As you already mentioned, it is called breaking the fourth wall regardless of the extent to which it was broken. When you say totally broken for this instance, it is the same as saying a fender bender totaled your car

 

Please mate, give over. As you can see with my last post I am trying to move away from the back and forth. Let me be clear now if it wasn't over the last couple posts, it's splitting hairs because my meaning was not to imply what you state. I dashed off that post last night in all of 30 seconds. Regardless of how bad a case of "breaking the 4th wall" this incident was(which is very open to debate) as Yoniy0 said...

 

I'm not sure I see the point in this argument. Is anyone challenging the observation that it's Brandon's practice to speak to the reader vicariously through the characters? Did you not notice how many times Kate said "said" in that chapter? Is there any argument that we've been directly told what's happening and what it should mean a great deal more than is needed or savory?

Edited by Suttree
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Then next time say that instead if sayi g splitting hairs. That does nothing to get your intended meaning across

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Recall Brandon washed his hands of things before any beta readers had even seen the book. That is not normal.

This is not true, and I wish people would stop saying this. Don't assume you know what goes on in the Brandon/TJ relationship. I talked about this some with Luckers already, and I don't want to get into it again.

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Recall Brandon washed his hands of things before any beta readers had even seen the book. That is not normal.

This is not true, and I wish people would stop saying this. Don't assume you know what goes on in the Brandon/TJ relationship. I talked about this some with Luckers already, and I don't want to get into it again.

 

Yet your AS answer did nothing to assuage anyone Peter. Care to break down how it really went for us then?

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Recall Brandon washed his hands of things before any beta readers had even seen the book. That is not normal.

This is not true, and I wish people would stop saying this. Don't assume you know what goes on in the Brandon/TJ relationship. I talked about this some with Luckers already, and I don't want to get into it again.

 

Yet your AS answer did nothing to assuage anyone Peter. Care to break down how it really went for us then?

he already said he didn't
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Brandon (paraphrase): I have some ideas on how to address the points the betas raised.

TJ (paraphrase): We got this, thanks.

 

Team Jordan always took over at the copyedit. Always. With the previous two books, the beta read happened earlier than the copyedit, and with this book it didn't.

Edited by Peter Ahlstrom
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Recall Brandon washed his hands of things before any beta readers had even seen the book. That is not normal.

This is not true, and I wish people would stop saying this. Don't assume you know what goes on in the Brandon/TJ relationship. I talked about this some with Luckers already, and I don't want to get into it again.

 

Yet your AS answer did nothing to assuage anyone Peter. Care to break down how it really went for us then?

he already said he didn't

 

Wasn't referring to this exchange short, Peter knows what I am referncing from an old thread.

 

 

Brandon (paraphrase): I have some ideas on how to address the points the betas raised.

TJ (paraphrase): We got this, thanks.

 

Was looking for insight into the whole process and how it has gone. If you recall your last answer on the topic a while back was not well received. Would appreciate any misconceptions cleared up. Thanks Peter...

Edited by Suttree
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Recall Brandon washed his hands of things before any beta readers had even seen the book. That is not normal.

This is not true, and I wish people would stop saying this. Don't assume you know what goes on in the Brandon/TJ relationship. I talked about this some with Luckers already, and I don't want to get into it again.

Peter, let me start by saying I regret the way I articulated my thoughts above. Not that I don't stand by what I've said, but there's a way to offer criticism to a person, and I should've kept in mind that you might be reading this. I simply lost patience with the way some arguments are being characterized, but I shouldn't have and I'm sorry.

 

I would like to say that I haven't seen anything from Brandon regarding this, and I think it's important that he'll know that his blog post a couple months past made some people feel abandoned. If I missed something you posted on this -- either in his name or out of your own experience -- then I apologize again. But I think it might be suitable for him to blog about this, so those of us who feel that way -- however few -- will have the consolation of knowing our impressions haven't been completely accurate and that he still cares about what happens with this book. We've accepted TeamJ's requests for additional time, even though we've been promised things in the past and have had those promises broken; we deserve as much, I believe.

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Team Jordan always took over at the copyedit. Always. With the previous two books, the beta read happened earlier than the copyedit, and with this book it didn't.

 

Ermm so how was what I said not true then? He announced he was done with his work well before the beta. If you could walk us through step by step that might be helpful? The last answer was not really too enlightening.

 

There seem to be some misconceptions in this thread about Brandon's process with Team Jordan. (I'm not responding specifically to the post before this, but to a few earlier posts.) So I will clarify a few points.

 

With each book, Brandon writes drafts, goes back and forth with Team Jordan, and revises. Then when it comes to the copyedit and proofread, Team Jordan handles that themselves. It's no different with this book, except that each step has had more time.

 

Brandon finished the first draft on December 20th. Then there was a lot of back and forth with Team Jordan. He turned his final draft in to Team Jordan on July 29th. That's over seven months of revision drafts, longer than either previous book. On the previous books, the beta read happened a bit earlier in the process, but this time, the beta read happened at the same time as the copyedit, so Team Jordan handled revisions based on both the copyedit and the beta read at the same time. Team Jordan is now doing the proofread, and they have longer to do it than even The Gathering Storm had, by a bit, and weeks longer than they had for Towers of Midnight.

 

This is an Aes Sedai comment. Truthful, and inferring as much as it avoids.

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Suttree, I find it as enlightening as I feel at liberty to be. It looks pretty clear to me.

 

yoniy0 yes, Brandon cares, but it IS out of his hands. That doesn't mean he washed them. If you like that metaphor, Team Jordan washed his hands for him. They are the boss and there's nothing unusual about the way things went down this time with regards to the handoff. (The unusual thing is how late the beta read happened, and Brandon and Maria had to push for it to happen at all.) Team Jordan has always made a bunch of edits after Brandon handed the manuscript off. For example, the thing in TOWERS with Elayne getting raised to the wall on a litter vs. in her bed as Brandon wrote it and as it was recorded in the audiobook, Team Jordan didn't even tell Brandon they'd made this change and he didn't find out until after the book came out.

 

Luckers doesn't like it when I try to shift blame to Team Jordan off of Brandon. That's really not what I'm doing. I'm just saying that the inner workings of their relationship are not necessarily the way many people think they are, and it's not really people's business. There's not any particular blame to be shifted. Both Brandon and Team Jordan have worked hard and are proud of their work, and both have also made mistakes. You can know you made mistakes and still be proud of what you did, because you know the effort you put into it. The end result is not going to please everyone. That does not mean that your criticisms are invalid. It's important to be able to criticize the end result of anything. Luckers thinks the book is going to be a disaster. For some people it may be a disaster. I loved the book, and some other people will love it. For some people their reaction will fall somewhere in between.

 

You also get a different reaction to things when you read them piecemeal like with these Tor previews, than you get when you read straight through. It's a different experience.

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How is the explanation problematic?

 

EDIT: I typed this up and held off posting it without seeing Peter's response first. I suppose the question can be applied to any response that finds the most recent update to be problematic.

Edited by Agitel
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Suttree, I find it as enlightening as I feel at liberty to be. It looks pretty clear to me.

 

yoniy0 yes, Brandon cares, but it IS out of his hands. That doesn't mean he washed them. If you like that metaphor, Team Jordan washed his hands for him. They are the boss and there's nothing unusual about the way things went down this time with regards to the handoff. (The unusual thing is how late the beta read happened, and Brandon and Maria had to push for it to happen at all.) Team Jordan has always made a bunch of edits after Brandon handed the manuscript off. For example, the thing in TOWERS with Elayne getting raised to the wall on a litter vs. in her bed as Brandon wrote it and as it was recorded in the audiobook, Team Jordan didn't even tell Brandon they'd made this change and he didn't find out until after the book came out.

 

Luckers doesn't like it when I try to shift blame to Team Jordan off of Brandon. That's really not what I'm doing. I'm just saying that the inner workings of their relationship are not necessarily the way many people think they are, and it's not really people's business. There's not any particular blame to be shifted. Both Brandon and Team Jordan have worked hard and are proud of their work, and both have also made mistakes. You can know you made mistakes and still be proud of what you did, because you know the effort you put into it. The end result is not going to please everyone. That does not mean that your criticisms are invalid. It's important to be able to criticize the end result of anything. Luckers thinks the book is going to be a disaster. For some people it may be a disaster. I loved the book, and some other people will love it. For some people their reaction will fall somewhere in between.

 

You also get a different reaction to things when you read them piecemeal like with these Tor previews, than you get when you read straight through. It's a different experience.

 

Fair enough, although I still see some skirting the issue going on in the second paragraph. Thanks for the response Peter...

Edited by Suttree
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I'm just saying that the inner workings of their relationship are not necessarily the way many people think they are, and it's not really people's business.

Thanks for understanding. For the first part, I would like to assure you that some of us are aware of the limitations of Brandon's influence in this project. The buck stops with Harriet on this one, although perhaps the fact that she's not merely Jim's editor but also his widow is influencing the degree to which we give voice to our grievances with her decisions and responsibilities.

 

As for the second part, I respectfully disagree. Brandon has broached the issue with his blog post, and it's up to him to smooth it over if and when he comes to agree that's required. I also retain the right to assign blame and act on it; I believe we as fans have been mishandled, at times lied to, and some of our needs ignored. As a customer, I will do with that what I will, and that includes standing by my right to voice my concerns, choosing to consume less merchandise and divert what funds I do invest into it to such avenues as I believe will affect Tor's bottom line (whether that would be monetary, or their sales figures).

 

This is all not your concern, I know. Brandon's your concern, and you can tell him that I, for one, am thankful for his doing this (as I believe many other critics are). I do however also blame him for what I feel is less than his best quality of work, and for mishandling some of his contact with us fans, and that does affect how I view his other projects. That's just how I feel about it, and for that I make no apologies.

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As usual, Sid, Luckers, Suttree, Yoniyo, Mark D and actually several others (oh - Ian Ohlander - AWESOME post in the other thread - your story mirrors mine in many ways, too) have done an outstanding job of verbosing thoughts on Sanderson's WOT that mirror my own outstandingly, so, rather than rehash MY thoughts on that - since they have so well - I just want to say that what most jumped out at me from Peter's above comments (and most disturbed me) was:

 

The fact that Maria and Brandon had to ''push'' to get even one round of Beta!

 

Fo RealZ???

 

Push WHO? (''Whom''?) - The obvious answer is Harriet. How could Beta Round on the FINAL BOOK of WOT be anything that had to be PUSHED for???

 

You know, for all the talk from Jordan's Camp about making sure this final book is ''perfect'' to honor Jordan's final legacy...it sure seems like they ALL want to just get this thing OUT and be able to move ON with their lives. The whole process has been a sadly excellent example of why we should NOT be allowed to ''go behind the curtain'' too often...I always had this image of Harriet as the trope-otypical Saintly, Gieveing, Grandmotherly Widow and, beginning with her actions and attitude the past few years regarding E Books and other things, and some of the things leaked by Brandon's camp... i I feel like that image has been tarnished. Harriet is NOT perfect. Harriet does NOT (as the case with the E Books) do EVERY SINGLE thing only for the fan's instant desires. Harriet HAS made actual mistakes in the handling of her husband's legacy. Harriet is NOT infallible. ... As I had seen oh so comfortably seen her in the past....That image is gone for me. And...I resent that. Hugely.

 

Now, back to the Beta thing and how DEEPLY APPARENT it is that all these people just want this thing DONE and to be able to move ON with their lives...THAT is a crying shame. It is the very definition of a ''tragedy'' in the literary world.

 

 

Fish

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The fact that maria and Brandon had to push to get even one round of beta!

 

Fo RealZ???

 

I strongly suspect that beta reading in the current sense is something that has become as big as it is in the years since Jordan starting writing. It isn't to say beta reading didn't happen - for example, IIRC Tolkien sent a copy of the manuscript for the Two Towers to his son, and the men of his company read it and provided feedback. But handing a book off to a half dozen or more people before the editor gets a crack at it to spot check for continuity problems, to say dialog or characterization felt off, to say that a certain plot line feels boring, etc, that didn't happen to the extent that it did after the advent of the Internet. Novels that were once a conversation between the writer and the editor are now a conversation between the writer and the beta readers before the editor becomes involved.

 

I could certainly see Harriet handling this in a traditional manner. Not out of malice or carelessness or disrespect for the material, but because involvement of beta readers to the current extent expected in the SFF field might well be too alien compared to the established methodology she has.

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I'd say it's a similar situation to the ebook delay.

 

Also I didn't realize mentioning it would be a surprise. Sometimes I forget what's general knowledge. So, it's past time for me to shut up.

Edited by Peter Ahlstrom
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Peter, I totally understand if you don't answer this but since you seem to be (and its appreciated, just so you know) keeping an eye on this thread, I am going to have the utter temerity to ask you something that may seem ridiculous but has seriously upset many longtime and loyal fans:

 

Can you please enlighten us as to why ''Blood and Ashes'' was changed to ''Bloody Ashes'' after that version of Mat's pet phrase has NEVER been used once in the entire series before The Gathering Storm ?...Cause, I gotta be honest, Mate - THAT really killed the goat! ;-)

 

If you answer this, you will be THE MAN.

 

 

Fish

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Brandon's answer is in the interview database. Personally I don't like "bloody ashes."

 

 

N3XUS1 (JAN 2012)

 

I have been reading the wot for more that half my life. I love it. I just finished my nth read through and let me say that Sanderson does an amazing job. I loved all of his books, if you have not read mistborn you are missing out. Ok that said I am fairly certain that the curse is "Blood and ashes" or in cases of extreme stress and/or Uno, "Blood and bloody ashes". Maybe even "blood andbloody flaming ashes". But NEVER was it simply "bloody ashes". Thank you, that is all. Sorry for typos wrote this on my phone, while riding a raken.

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

It's okay.

I've done this intentionally. It's a personal quirk of mine from my linguistic background. I feel that many constructions like this, over time, will simplify. As the world of the WoT has been modernizing, I feel that slowly "Bloody and bloody ashes" would shorten. I've used the longer version in the books, but have begun pushing the oaths toward their more clipped versions as part of a subtle linguistic shift to accompany the birth of things like gunpowder and steam power.

Our world's own oaths have done this quite aggressively.

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Brandon's answer is in the interview database. Personally I don't like "bloody ashes."

 

 

N3XUS1 (JAN 2012)

 

 

I have been reading the wot for more that half my life. I love it. I just finished my nth read through and let me say that Sanderson does an amazing job. I loved all of his books, if you have not read mistborn you are missing out. Ok that said I am fairly certain that the curse is "Blood and ashes" or in cases of extreme stress and/or Uno, "Blood and bloody ashes". Maybe even "blood andbloody flaming ashes". But NEVER was it simply "bloody ashes". Thank you, that is all. Sorry for typos wrote this on my phone, while riding a raken.

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

 

 

It's okay.

I've done this intentionally. It's a personal quirk of mine from my linguistic background. I feel that many constructions like this, over time, will simplify. As the world of the WoT has been modernizing, I feel that slowly "Bloody and bloody ashes" would shorten. I've used the longer version in the books, but have begun pushing the oaths toward their more clipped versions as part of a subtle linguistic shift to accompany the birth of things like gunpowder and steam power.

Our world's own oaths have done this quite aggressively.

 

 

It's good to know that it was quite intentional. I personally don't mind it, it grows the world a little bit more to have that kind of depth where you can have a small changes in patterns of speech brought into a series.

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Thank you so much, Peter! ... Sadly, it makes me evern more unhappy. Who is Brandon, (and I don't mean this personally towards Brandon, I'd feel this way about anoyone) to go in in the LAST book and CHANGE a main saying of a main character that has been one way for 20 years???

 

That question is rhetorical, btw - certainly don't expect you to go there, Peter. Considering what a tough spot you are in, its awesome how much you DO share here. Im pretty unhappy with what Ive seen of AMOL so far and many aspects of TOM but Ive said many times I thought The Gathering Storm was done very, very well and I enjoyed the heck out of it. It just seemed like sooo much more time was taken in it. I don't mean the production of the actual book. I mean, we got longer stretches of learning things through the internal, silent monologues of characters. Now, sooo much is put out there in the chapters so quickly and its 90% dialogue. What happened to ''Show; do not tell.''

 

I'll leave with two thoughts:

 

1 I feel like Brandon may possibly himself have wished to be able to ''show'' at greater length rather than rush through these things. The thing is, if he had started the series or come in midpoint, he may have done so. I don't think he has the CHANCE to show his patient side as much here. He was brought in in the LAST book and told WRAP IT UP.

 

2 I also hate in some respects the internet/twitter age...if we didn't have instant access to so much info today, the powers that be would be under less scrutiny. And, many of the disagreements, delays and changes in direction behind the scenes in this situation are no more than have ALWAYS been a part of a group effort in publishing a book this size, but, 20 years ago, every move wasn't visible to the public and available for instant disection. I feel bad for Brandon and all you guys in that regard. But, Im not crying rivers of tears here, either. I doubt Brandon did this work for free and I expect having his name associated with the ending of the Wheel of Time did not exactly hurt his career. I do feel that this was a good experience for Brandon and I wish him well.

 

Thanks again, Peter!!!!!

 

 

Fish

Edited by The Fisher King
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Brandon's answer is in the interview database. Personally I don't like "bloody ashes."

 

 

N3XUS1 (JAN 2012)

 

 

I have been reading the wot for more that half my life. I love it. I just finished my nth read through and let me say that Sanderson does an amazing job. I loved all of his books, if you have not read mistborn you are missing out. Ok that said I am fairly certain that the curse is "Blood and ashes" or in cases of extreme stress and/or Uno, "Blood and bloody ashes". Maybe even "blood andbloody flaming ashes". But NEVER was it simply "bloody ashes". Thank you, that is all. Sorry for typos wrote this on my phone, while riding a raken.

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

 

 

It's okay.

I've done this intentionally. It's a personal quirk of mine from my linguistic background. I feel that many constructions like this, over time, will simplify. As the world of the WoT has been modernizing, I feel that slowly "Bloody and bloody ashes" would shorten. I've used the longer version in the books, but have begun pushing the oaths toward their more clipped versions as part of a subtle linguistic shift to accompany the birth of things like gunpowder and steam power.

Our world's own oaths have done this quite aggressively.

 

 

It's good to know that it was quite intentional. I personally don't mind it, it grows the world a little bit more to have that kind of depth where you can have a small changes in patterns of speech brought into a series.

 

I hear ya, mate, but for many of us, its just that - though many characters use that expression - its just sooooooooo MAT'S and MAT is OUR GUY, ya know? It cuts deep...ha ha ha ;-)

 

 

Fish

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I read it as Mat is on the forefront of SHORTENING things (blood and bloody ashes to merely bloody ashes) in a fast-moving world on the cusp of change.

 

 

Fish

Edited by The Fisher King
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I read it as Mat is on the forefront of SHORTENING things (blood and bloody ashes to merely bloody ashes) in a fast-moving world on the cusp of change.

 

 

Fish

that is the intermediary
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