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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Chapter 2 Audio Available on Tor


Luckers
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I'm just trying to find some positives. I know you don't hate me for that.

Heaven forbid, no. I just resent the use of the noun 'entitlement' in this context, because it implies that there are no valid grievances here. Which there are, Agitel's ridicule notwithstanding.

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Yon...if you've read any of my posts here over the past couple of years, you know that very few posters here have been as critical as I...there are MANY legitimate grievances ... I was just trying to point out a few positives for once, lol.

 

 

Fish

Edited by The Fisher King
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I agree with Fish's train of thought; I'm actually quite...depressed at how negative this thread has gotten. I mean, I could write an essay about the numerous ways the last few books have irked me as a fan, and as a fiction nerd who just can't understand how some of the more major fumblings could have happened. But...it still saddens me to think that so many of us might buy this last book with a bad taste in our mouths, expecting to have to overlook a whole lot of flaws. It's certainly not what RJ would have wanted, and it's such a shame for such a great series and a book that so many have waited so long for.

 

So, come on everyone. Happy thoughts. HAPPY THOUGHTS.

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Reading "Crimsonthorn" in TPoD, Elayne enters Caemlyn and notices the Aiel:

 

"The people seemed to take no notice of the Aiel, but Elayne did. She loved Aviendha as she did herself, more, but she could not love an army of armed Aiel walking Caemlyn's streets."

 

So, that has me remembering how in Chapter 2 of AMoL, Elayne expresses her hope to Aviendha to have Aiel take part in liberating Caemlyn as "special forces" operating behind enemy lines. Which in turn reminded me how the Aiel fought a shadowspawn army in Caemlyn during Rand's raid that killed Rahvin and saved Andor from that particular Foresaken. Mix that with popular Andoran sentiment to want to send those black-veiled (or was it black-eyed) Aiel back where they belong. And I cannot forget that most of Caemlyn's refugees owe their lives to Talmanes and the Band securing their escape from Caemlyn.

 

That vaunted Andoran pride and independence seems to require quite a bit of "external" help from the Aiel and the Band. And Elayne who couldn't love an Aiel army walking Caemlyn now prays to see an Aiel army walking Caemlyn. How ironic?!

How ironic?!

Not that ironic, I don't think, except in the general sense. There's a big difference between fighting Shadowspawn and occupying a city.

 

It was in the general sense that I was talking about. Andor, the most powerful nation (supposedly) in Randland needing foreign intervention to pull its bacon off the coals more than once.

 

As to claiming that the Aiel and Saldaeans were an occupation force, that is not what they were. They were a liberation force that was forced to stay because leaving would have created a power vacuum.

 

Another thought was that Rand and then the Royal Palace kept the waygate "alive" by keeping the two Avenderosa Leaves on the outside with a guard. That seems to be a naive way to secure the waygate since someone using the Power could cut through the door. The only solution was the one Loial was forced to use in the Manetheren waygate: just kill the thing.

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It was in the general sense that I was talking about. Andor, the most powerful nation (supposedly) in Randland needing foreign intervention to pull its bacon off the coals more than once.

 

Has there been a country in Randland that has gotten rid of a forsaken themselves? Or fought of a massive targeted attack by trollocs? Andor is one of the greatest nations and as such is a target for the shadow.

 

Also in terms of the occupy verse liberated, yes they were a liberating force but Rand did no one any favors by announcing he was going to "give" the throne to Elayne. That goes against all of the cultural norms and he made her job more difficult by doing so. It is one thing to defeat a forsaken and quite another to put in a throne and act like you are staying. Based on the rumors off what had been going on their response was perfectly normal. Not sure how else you would have expected them to act?

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Has there been ANY flaming in-story explanation as to why oh Y that stupid Waygate was left ACTIVE??

 

To me, that is one of the most painful plot-fails like EVAR. Whether Sanderson OR Jordan's oversight...I HAAAATE it!!!

 

 

Fish

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Has there been ANY flaming in-story explanation as to why oh Y that stupid Waygate was left ACTIVE??

 

To me, that is one of the most painful plot-fails like EVAR. Whether Sanderson OR Jordan's oversight...I HAAAATE it!!!

 

 

Fish

 

There's an off the cuff remark about it having been heavily guarded but that Darkfriends within the Guard betrayed them. Felt weak to me.

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When its very existence is a knife at your throat, why "guard" it at all rather than destroying it?

 

That makes zero sense.

 

 

Fish

Edited by The Fisher King
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When its very existence is a knife at your throat, why "guard" it at all rather than destroying it?

 

That makes zero sense.

 

 

Fish

 

Destroying a Waygate is incredibly difficult. I don't mind the issue of having the Shadow overcome guards or wardings or the removal of the Avendesora leaves, I just dislike the cheap way it was handled. We needed to see the Shadow struggle to overcome whatever protections were in place, not just be told 'oh yeah, we did that and they did this, and NOW THERE'S TROLLOCS EVERYWHERE'.

 

It's more the violations of show don't tell than the way of it that I struggle with.

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When its very existence is a knife at your throat, why "guard" it at all rather than destroying it?

 

That makes zero sense.

 

 

Fish

 

Destroying a Waygate is incredibly difficult. I don't mind the issue of having the Shadow overcome guards or wardings or the removal of the Avendesora leaves, I just dislike the cheap way it was handled. We needed to see the Shadow struggle to overcome whatever protections were in place, not just be told 'oh yeah, we did that and they did this, and NOW THERE'S TROLLOCS EVERYWHERE'.

 

It's more the violations of show don't tell than the way of it that I struggle with.

But then I suppose, if they'd shown them trying to break out of the waygate or whatever, there wouldn't have been such a shock factor with the NOW THERE'S TROLLOCS EVERYWHERE, and I quite enjoyed that at the time. Rather underwhelming after that, but the shock was...shocking at least.

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That ship sailed with the TofM epilogue--or even before when the Black Ajah spoke of an invasion. The shock thing had been done. Showing HOW it was done in the prologue would have held value.

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Agreed. But, sadly, they're up against it now and aren't able to fit everything in. How strangely fitting that after spending time on over 12, 000 pages, WOT finds itself not having room for everything in AMOL. :-(

 

 

Fish

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Agreed. But, sadly, they're up against it now and aren't able to fit everything in. How strangely fitting that after spending time on over 12, 000 pages, WOT finds itself not having room for everything in AMOL. :-(

 

 

Fish

What a rich statement. Somehow there was still room for more vague, foreboding Black Tower build up and comic relief with Elayne and Aviendha. Go figure.
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Exactly, batcaver, and I know I am probably going to get ripped all over again for the ''negative'' thing I am about to say, but, it just kills me at how poorly managed the ending has been handled. We go from public statements by Brandon saying ''I think it can all be done in one book'' to announcing it will be split into two books, then a trilogy. 2500 plus pages are decided needed to ''do it justice.'' ... Ok, fine. But then, things fans were thirsting for, like the post-VOG Rand/Tam Reunion gets less than one page, literally, cool characters like Logain, Alanna, Demandred, Taim, Loial and others are BARELY SEEN in the Brandon Books, and intense sequences like the one Luckers mentions above happen OFF SCREEN and we, the fans, get warned that many plotlines that were going to have resolutions will now quite possibly have to be cut - because Team Jordan is up against it...but the absurd silliness of Avi, Elayne...the Talmanes/Mat sequence in Gathering Storm etc...THESE things are deemed worthy of having precious final pages spent on them???

 

I tell ya...its enough to make a grown man cry.

 

 

Fish

Edited by The Fisher King
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That ship sailed with the TofM epilogue--or even before when the Black Ajah spoke of an invasion. The shock thing had been done. Showing HOW it was done in the prologue would have held value.

Oh, I was talking about the ToM epilogue...and now I'm confused. Eh, doesn't really matter.

 

Exactly, batcaver, and I know I am probably going to get ripped all over again for the ''negative'' thing I am about to say, but, it just kills me at how poorly managed the ending has been handled. We go from public statements by Brandon saying ''I think it can all be done in one book'' to announcing it will be split into two books, then a trilogy. 2500 plus pages are decided needed to ''do it justice.'' ... Ok, fine. But then, things fans were thirsting for, like the post-VOG Rand/Tam Reunion gets less than one page, literally, cool characters like Logain, Alanna, Demandred, Taim, Loial and others are BARELY SEEN in the Brandon Books, and intense sequences like the one Luckers mentions above happen OFF SCREEN and we, the fans, get warned that many plotlines that were going to have resolutions will now quite possibly have to be cut - because Team Jordan is up against it...but the absurd silliness of Avi, Elayne...the Talmanes/Mat sequence in Gathering Storm etc...THESE things are deemed worthy of having precious final pages spent on them???

 

I tell ya...its enough to make a grown man cry.

 

 

Fish

Agreed. I'm sort of hoping though that the second chapter was slow-moving at least partly because they knew it was going to be pre-released, and tbh a lot did happen in the first chapter. Too much, imo. Hopefully the pacing evens out over the rest of the book; that much speeding up and sudden braking would make a person ill.

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Speaking of 'hopes'...I am hoping we get a Pre-11 Mat segment. Brandon said that 11 was the first Mat POV of the book, I believe, but does that mean that Mat's not in the book at all before then??

 

 

Fish

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hey fish could be the first PoV of Mat but we probably will see how he decides to go south to Ebou Dar and Moiraine north to FoM,maybe from a Moiraine PoV

 

 

i mean it would be very strange to see him jump from around the outside of ToG to Ebou Dar without any explanation

 

edit to add the last line

Edited by GB
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Destroying a Waygate is incredibly difficult....

 

It's more the violations of show don't tell than the way of it that I struggle with.

It is weak because Rand set weaves to block the one at Shadar Logoth so that all the 'spawn that exited from there would die. Same thing could have been done in in this case. Even if they invaded the city, just keep them trapped inside and they will all die eventually. A minor oversight for me, but still an oversight.

 

Speaking of 'hopes'...I am hoping we get a Pre-11 Mat segment. Brandon said that 11 was the first Mat POV of the book, I believe, but does that mean that Mat's not in the book at all before then??

But Loial could be in the book before Chapter 11 :loial:
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Exactly, batcaver, and I know I am probably going to get ripped all over again for the ''negative'' thing I am about to say, but, it just kills me at how poorly managed the ending has been handled. We go from public statements by Brandon saying ''I think it can all be done in one book'' to announcing it will be split into two books, then a trilogy. 2500 plus pages are decided needed to ''do it justice.'' ... Ok, fine. But then, things fans were thirsting for, like the post-VOG Rand/Tam Reunion gets less than one page, literally, cool characters like Logain, Alanna, Demandred, Taim, Loial and others are BARELY SEEN in the Brandon Books, and intense sequences like the one Luckers mentions above happen OFF SCREEN and we, the fans, get warned that many plotlines that were going to have resolutions will now quite possibly have to be cut - because Team Jordan is up against it...but the absurd silliness of Avi, Elayne...the Talmanes/Mat sequence in Gathering Storm etc...THESE things are deemed worthy of having precious final pages spent on them???

 

I tell ya...its enough to make a grown man cry.

 

 

Fish

 

Those scenese would have been terrific, but probably require several more books. Other scenes like what the Ogres are up to...

 

One will have to read AMoL in it's entirety before making a judgement about its quality. However, chapter two is something RJ would have never written.

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we, the fans, get warned that many plotlines that were going to have resolutions will now quite possibly have to be cut - because Team Jordan is up against it...

Wait, what?

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It was in the general sense that I was talking about. Andor, the most powerful nation (supposedly) in Randland needing foreign intervention to pull its bacon off the coals more than once.

 

Has there been a country in Randland that has gotten rid of a forsaken themselves? Or fought of a massive targeted attack by trollocs? Andor is one of the greatest nations and as such is a target for the shadow.

 

Also in terms of the occupy verse liberated, yes they were a liberating force but Rand did no one any favors by announcing he was going to "give" the throne to Elayne. That goes against all of the cultural norms and he made her job more difficult by doing so. It is one thing to defeat a forsaken and quite another to put in a throne and act like you are staying. Based on the rumors off what had been going on their response was perfectly normal. Not sure how else you would have expected them to act?

 

Suttree, this might open the floodgates on the debate of whether Andorans were aware that one of the Foresaken was their proclaimed King; whether they could have deduced that Morgase was long gone before Rand showed up; whether Rand fighting a Shadowspawn army and Caemlyn'ers helping in the clean up effort means that Rand was on their side and fighting a Foresaken; and whether Rand's overtures to the High Seats (good ones) were enough to settle their "independence" feathers; etc... And I would prefer not to get into the argument about the difficulties of Rand "giving" the Andoran Throne to Elayne, in this thread.

 

The main point I was trying to make is that the Saldaeans and Aiel, the liberating force, stayed in Caemlyn out of necessity. Their premature departure would have created a power vacuum that could have allowed another Foresaken, probably Demandred, to set up shop discreetly. And Demandred always likes to use proxies (Arymilla maybe)!

 

The question about any nation getting rid of a Foresaken or a massive Shadowspawn army on its own should have been a motivation for Andorans to accept the help that is necessary to protect their realm against Shadowspawn; instead of acting so puffed up with ruffled feathers about "foreign intervention." And (in my personal opinion) Elayne prioritizing the Bowl of Winds over Andor played a key role in making the situation in Andor worse. I fully recognize the Bowl benefited the whole world; but the Bowl would have been found (thanks to Mat) and activated without Elayne; whereas Andor needed Elayne and only Elayne to restore peace and order.

 

Another irony: The Saldaeans and Aiel agree to Elayne's request to leave Caemlyn less than a week after her entry to Caemlyn .... She thinks that the resulting spike in crime is preferable to the presence of the Saldaeans and Aiel, her prerogative .... But then she tries to fill the security vacuum by hiring mercenaries, many of them foreigners!!! She was juggling a wagonload of issues; but it is funny how she replaces foreign intervention with foreign troops.

Edited by Theodril
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The main point I was trying to make is that the Saldaeans and Aiel, the liberating force, stayed in Caemlyn out of necessity. Their premature departure would have created a power vacuum that could have allowed another Foresaken, probably Demandred, to set up shop discretely.

That's what it looks like to us, or Rand. To them, it will definitely seem very different indeed. If you need any proof of that, consider Japan's attitude towards the (very benign) occupying allied forces, or the general acceptance of American forces in Iraq prior to their retreat.

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The main point I was trying to make is that the Saldaeans and Aiel, the liberating force, stayed in Caemlyn out of necessity. Their premature departure would have created a power vacuum that could have allowed another Foresaken, probably Demandred, to set up shop discretely.

That's what it looks like to us, or Rand. To them, it will definitely seem very different indeed. If you need any proof of that, consider Japan's attitude towards the (very benign) occupying allied forces, or the general acceptance of American forces in Iraq prior to their retreat.

 

Why not the perception of American troops in Europe during the Cold War? I am under the impression that they were viewed favorably, for the most part.

 

Also, the continued presence of American troops in Japan is not to prevent a power vacuum. And the US military presence in Iraq was more occupation/ Halliburton / Big Oil than liberation: no WMD's, no Al-Qaida link.

Edited by Theodril
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That ship sailed with the TofM epilogue--or even before when the Black Ajah spoke of an invasion. The shock thing had been done. Showing HOW it was done in the prologue would have held value.

 

A prologue POV from Doilan Mellar, Eldrith or Mili Skane (did she escape/survive?) would have been great for this.

 

-- dwn

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Also, the continued presence of American troops in Japan is not to prevent a power vacuum. And the US military presence in Iraq was more occupation/ Halliburton / Big Oil than liberation: no WMD's, no Al-Qaida link.

I chose to answer this first because it's the easiest. America put an end to the imperial government in Japan at the end of WW2, and their occupation of it was meant (and actually, quite remarkably achieved its goals) to institute a functioning democracy there. So "to prevent a power vacuum" is actually a fair representation of what they were doing. US-occupied Iraq had the exact same model (if you're not swayed by Bush-administration claims of WWD's, you shouldn't be by conspiracy theories either; the truth always lies in the middle. BTW as a matter of fact, there is an Al-Qaeda presence in Iraq).

 

If you remain skeptic, though, just examine how US forces in Saudi Arabia are viewed (and that while making no attempts to 'run things' in any way, shape, or form).

 

Why not the perception of American troops in Europe during the Cold War? I am under the impression that they were viewed favorably, for the most part.

Allied-occupied West Germany is a special case, not because of the situation, but rather the prevailing narrative of our days. To put bluntly, it's difficult to trust current day portrayal of affairs there, as opposition to the occupation too easily could've been chalked off as the resurgence of Nazism (and, indeed, attempts of this sort have been noted). Since I haven't actually been there, I don't want to speculate.

I presume you don't claim an easy acceptance of Soviet rule in East Germany, correct?

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