Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Luckers

Chapter 2 Audio Available on Tor

Recommended Posts

But who will believe Merise (who bedded her Ashaman and so has an emotional interest in it) and Nyn who was not under the 3 Oaths. Who could doubt a Red Sister bound by the 3 Oaths? She saw the flow of Saidin and thought it looked clean. She knew it was supposed to be an oily foul taint that was not there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
there are some other oddities in how BS describes channeling in a man-woman circle. Pevara can't see the weaves Androl is making even the part using saidar. that doesn't make sense.

also, she thinks that Androl is using saidar to bolster his own weaves only. It looks like BS thinks that men can't directly channel saidar when linked with women. the same thing is present when Neald links with a Wise One in ToM.

 

 

Quote

 

"It's beautiful, Jur," Neald said softly. His voice bore no hint of the bravado he often displayed. "I can feel saidar. It's like I'm more complete now."

"You're channeling it?" Perrin asked.

"No. I don't need to. I can use it."

"Use it how?" Grady asked, eager.

"I . . . It's hard to explain. The weaves are saidin, but I seem to be able to strengthen them with saidar.

 

However, Rand channels saidar directly when linked with Nynaeve in WH.

 

And too Pevara apparently cannot see the weaves, yet Nynaeve was able to see weaves woven with saidar by a man in KoD after the attack on Algarin's manor.

 

Actually, I thought about it more and I think I see why BS might want to describe it that way here. What Nynaeve saw was pure Fire (she mentions that) to burn dead Trollocs. In that case it makes sense that when linked with women Asha'am would channel Fire using saidin and Fire using saidar.

But gateways are different. The weaves for gateways are completely different for men and women. Moggy even tells Egwene that if she tried to do what men do but only with saidar it would lead to very dangerous results. It's likely true the other way around.

So when a man makes a gateway linked with a woman it should not be him using the same powers (I believe it's just Spirit for gateways) with both saidar and saidin. Basically, it has to be saidin only, woven in the way men do when making gateways. But linking is supposed to help somehow so the way BS described it is probably the only way that makes sense. The same goes for the scene from ToM I quoted as there Neald was also making a gateway.

Edited by herid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Couple things from listening to this chapter:

 

1. I now know for sure that I could never be an "audio book guy." No offense to the reader who did it ... I just don't like it

 

2. These releases, while fun, are really doing BS no favors. We get glimpses into a few of the build-up chapters where we get none of the stuff we're really looking forward to and that makes it that much easier for us to pick it apart. It's like wanting Legos for Christmas, your parents telling you that you can open one gift Christmas Eve and that one gift ends up being a shirt. Even if it's not a bad shirt, you're not gonna be thrilled with it. And if the shirt ends up not being your favorite color then you're REALLY gonna not like it. Now, if you had opened the shirt right after opening the Legos that you wanted then you'd probably hardly say much about it until you came back later and really looked at it.

 

 

Of the released material thus far, Talmanes' part has been the only one to really get me on the edge of my seat. The rest of the content has been mere build-up ... and it's hard to get excited about build-up ... but it's easy to notice all the flaws in it.

 

 

On Chapter 2 ...

1. The Aviendha part was awkward. I hope BS is just trying to give people a glimpse into the Aiel (as people have said in the past, he likes to sorta revisit the characters' history in each book) and that she goes back to being her fairly soon. Elayne seemed fairly spot on though. The first insult was too drawn out but maybe that was because it's the first time I've "heard" one.

 

2. The Pevara/Androl part was decent. There were retorts that I had ready in my mind that seemed obvious that Androl didn't use - Androl is such a keen mind that I can't imagine him overlooking debatable points that I was able to immediately put together to Pevara's statements. I thought the retaliatory bonding was amusing. And to those who would claim this as out of character or awkward ... Pevara has been Aes Sedai for decades and she's never hard to fear her own power used against her like that - there's no telling what someone's reaction would be to that. And Androl's reaction was just a simple "oh, you think that's amusing? Well I can do it TOO." On pure impulse and not very wise, but these are humans, after all.

 

 

Aviendha needed to be more mature.

Androl needed to be more keen minded.

 

You can say that's not bad but we really only saw Aviendha, Elayne, Pevara and Androl in this chapter ... that's only a 50% accuracy rate. But, again, I hope some of this is BS trying to re-introduce characters/cultures that the readers didn't need but maybe BS did.

 

The good ... we get even more of a feeling of desperation at the BT, an Elayne that is fitting of a young 20something (if that?) who is both Queen and in love with the Dragorn Reborn and a hint of things to come between Pevara and Androl.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In regards to control of the link...

 

Perhaps the way to make sense of the situation (Nynaeve being briefly in control of the circle with Rand, men having to control a circle of 2) is to assume that though a women has to form a link with a man and can be "in control" of it, she can't (either safely or at all) use saidin in such a circumstance. In the situation with Nynaeve and Rand, Nynaeve doesn't attempt to actually _do_ anything before Rand takes control.

 

Edited to add... I'm not trying to make sense of the Androl/Pevara situation. That's clearly just a mistake. Just trying to make sense of the woman must innate but the man must control 2 person circle, as someone above said they could never understand why it would be that way.

Edited by Daemin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

good point. this makes sense as far as control goes. but the question of control is not the real issue here. When a man and a woman link the woman has to initiate the link and then pass control to the man. That's what happened in the cleansing scene. When Nyn and Rand link, she starts channeling and then draws him into the link and only passes control to him later. When Pevara and Androl link she first tries to draw him into the link and it doesn't work at all (it should have) so that they have to switch places. that part is just a mistake.

Edited by herid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Someone in the Tor thread posted this quote from Sammael's conversation with Graendal in LoC:

 

"Then link with me. The pair of us linked would be more than a match for al'Thor. Let that be the beginning of our new standing together." His scar tightened as he smiled at the sudden blankness on her face. The link had to come from her, but with only the two of them, she would have to give him control and trust him to choose when to end it.

 

So that confirms the woman needs to initiate the link and then pass control to the man she is linked with.

Edited by sleepinghour

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Look, there really isn't any making sense of this Linking thing. Nynaeve was the one to initiate the Link with Rand -- he did exactly what Pevara told Androl to do and Nynaeve was able to do what Pevara couldn't. The fact that Androl could do it for her might be possible -- we haven't actually seen anything contradictory -- but that Pevara couldn't isn't.

 

These releases, while fun, are really doing BS no favors.

You can say that again. Not the least of it is that they were obviously written for early release, and some parts of them are awfully cheap. Taim's cameo reads like the faintest excuse they could come up with that would allow them to include the line about a Forsaken standing "newly revealed" in the blurb -- feinting to gain on the Demandred enigma.

 

 

Pevara has been Aes Sedai for decades and she's never hard to fear her own power used against her like that

Are you kidding? She'd had to deal with it any time she Linked with someone and allowed them to meld the flows. A man or a woman, it makes no difference. Except that she doesn't fully trust Androl, but she knew all that in advance. That a woman as experienced as she would simply lash out like that -- well it strains credulity.

 

EDIT: Thanks sleepinghour, it seems I was even wrong about the first part somehow being logical.

Edited by yoniy0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Someone in the Tor thread posted this quote from Sammael's conversation with Graendal in LoC:

 

"Then link with me. The pair of us linked would be more than a match for al'Thor. Let that be the beginning of our new standing together." His scar tightened as he smiled at the sudden blankness on her face. The link had to come from her, but with only the two of them, she would have to give him control and trust him to choose when to end it.

 

So that confirms the woman needs to initiate the link and then pass control to the man she is linked with.

excellent find, sleepinghour! that removes any doubt that the Pevara Androl linking sequence might not be a mistake.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some additional confirmation from the BWB:

 

Women can initiate a link; men cannot, though they can be part of it and even lead in certain circumstances.

 

In most cases, either a man or a woman can control the link—this is called leading, focusing, or guiding—but in the case of a circle of seventy-two, a circle of only one man and one woman, or in most circles of up to thirteen which contain more than one man, a man must lead.

 

Peter said on Twitter that Maria is looking into the linking issue, so they are aware of it and will hopefully be able to correct it before AMoL goes to print. Though I wonder how they're going to fix it considering the tone of the scene won't remain the same if Pevara is the one who initiates the link and passes control to Androl.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But who will believe Merise (who bedded her Ashaman and so has an emotional interest in it) and Nyn who was not under the 3 Oaths. Who could doubt a Red Sister bound by the 3 Oaths? She saw the flow of Saidin and thought it looked clean. She knew it was supposed to be an oily foul taint that was not there.

nyn may not have been bound at the cleansing, but it is not like she can lie about it once bound. unless they were to try to claim that her memories are false through compulsion, something that could be done to even a sister already bound, they would have to take what she says as fact, or at the least fact as she observed it, first hand, while linked to the man who did it. and with more than one person corroborating, i don't think it will take long before all the sisters are forced to accept it. just as i doubt there is a single sister in the tower who can any longer deny that there is/was a black ajah.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Pevara has been Aes Sedai for decades and she's never hard to fear her own power used against her like that

Are you kidding? She'd had to deal with it any time she Linked with someone and allowed them to meld the flows. A man or a woman, it makes no difference. Except that she doesn't fully trust Androl, but she knew all that in advance. That a woman as experienced as she would simply lash out like that -- well it strains credulity.

 

 

She may have experience in circles with other Aes Sedai that she trusts not to use it on her ... and, if nothing else, she can see the weaves. The same cannot be said when she is linked to a male channeler. This is something hardly anyone in the WT (let alone a Red) has experienced and the Aes Sedai have lived for hundreds of years convinced that men who could channel would destroy them (even if by accident) with the One Power given the chance. However long she's been around Androl is not long enough to destroy that wall she's built up in her mind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The sequence of events can still work even with Pevara initiating the link. We've seen previous instances where passing the link can be a painful experience when the other person has no experience or finesse. Nynaeve does it to Elayne in tPoD, and Rand to Nynaeve in WH. Basically, Pevara would grasp outwards, find unfamiliar saidin, and initiate the link. Once linked, she won't be able to do anything. She can then give her spiel about ancient records indicating this would be the case, which can then transition to her preparing herself to give control over to Androl, only to have him violently take over, just as Rand did with Nynaeve.

 

That can set the tone for Pevara getting panicked (since its doubtful she has ever had control of a link taken away this way). Unlike Nynaeve or Elayne, she'd be losing control to someone she still doesn't fully trust, and not in the sisterly way she has had this happen before either.

 

I certainly hope they make this change.

 

As for the rest, I find some of the content interesting, but the presentation was just atrocious. This chapter is supposed to seal the fate of the Red Ajah. We're supposed to get a sense of a momentous change, where a leader of an Ajah that has hunted men for 3000 years can finally come to terms with a world changing event, and start thinking of where her Ajah will go from here, what choice it will make. All of that was in there, but buried deep under mind numbing faff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Luckers, I'm curious why you say this...

 

"The discussion re: the Black and White Tower, the roles of the Red and all that was too reader-aware. Especially given Androl's apparent knowledge of the flaws of the modern Aes Sedai--something almost no one in Randland should actually be aware of, even those that hate the Aes Sedai. Perhaps if he'd had some sort of interaction with the Aiel it would make sense, but otherwise Brandon had Androl aware of facts not in evidence (for him)."

 

Androl's past is a mystery, but he certainly fills a sort of a Renaissance Man. He demonstrates an interest in the pursuit of knowledge. That would surely lead him to looking at the White Tower and AS. His comments on the flaws of the White Tower can be applied to many such inflexible organizations.

 

Which facts are not in evidence for him?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't remember exactly but is it referenced anywhere in chapter 1 or the prologue that Rand was writing a letter to Elayne? I initially assumed the letter was a fake sent by a darkfriend trying to get Elayne to go against the meeting at FOM.

Clearly though, if it was previously mentioned rand was sending a letter I would feel less likely that it was a fake letter in chapter 2.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are you kidding? She'd had to deal with it any time she Linked with someone and allowed them to meld the flows. A man or a woman, it makes no difference. Except that she doesn't fully trust Androl, but she knew all that in advance. That a woman as experienced as she would simply lash out like that -- well it strains credulity.

 

EDIT: Thanks sleepinghour, it seems I was even wrong about the first part somehow being logical.

 

A man or a woman, it makes no difference?

 

Try three millennium of prejudice and discrimination, and over one hundred years of living in that for Pevara.

 

Anyway, I don't see what's completely terrible about this chapter aside from the linking inconsistencies, which are baffling. That is something that the team working with Brandon should have caught. The prose and dialogue? That's Brandon. This is too, in part, but it's Jordan's team that also has a responsibility to catch things like this and other continuity errors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Luckers, I'm curious why you say this...

 

"The discussion re: the Black and White Tower, the roles of the Red and all that was too reader-aware. Especially given Androl's apparent knowledge of the flaws of the modern Aes Sedai--something almost no one in Randland should actually be aware of, even those that hate the Aes Sedai. Perhaps if he'd had some sort of interaction with the Aiel it would make sense, but otherwise Brandon had Androl aware of facts not in evidence (for him)."

 

Androl's past is a mystery, but he certainly fills a sort of a Renaissance Man. He demonstrates an interest in the pursuit of knowledge. That would surely lead him to looking at the White Tower and AS. His comments on the flaws of the White Tower can be applied to many such inflexible organizations.

 

Which facts are not in evidence for him?

 

He's also been potentially watching Aes Sedai for months, hasn't he?

 

EDIT: Sorry for the double post.

Edited by Agitel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't remember exactly but is it referenced anywhere in chapter 1 or the prologue that Rand was writing a letter to Elayne? I initially assumed the letter was a fake sent by a darkfriend trying to get Elayne to go against the meeting at FOM.

Clearly though, if it was previously mentioned rand was sending a letter I would feel less likely that it was a fake letter in chapter 2.

pretty sure it is implied here: http://www.tor.com/s...-the-wind-blewq

 

“There is no other side, Perrin. There is one side, with a disagreement on how that side should proceed. If Elayne isn’t here to be part of the meeting, it will undermine everything I’m trying to accomplish. She’s probably the most powerful of all the rulers.”

Edited by Testy al'Carr

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like the Androl/Pevara stuff ok- although we've gone from having forced bonding equating with rape to two characters bonding each other on an angry whim. But hey, they both seem into it, so whatever behind closed doors by consenting adults I suppose. PS- when you're in an armed enemy camp waiting to be dragged away... lock the door. It is fun to see the dual bonding thing actually happen.

 

The Aviendha/Elayne stuff. Tedious and stupid, even for an Elayne chapter. I mean... from the idiot general that doesnt seem to realize that the Last Battle might actually have some battle in it to Aviendha sneaking just to show how cool her sneaking abilities are... the only thing that made me happy was Rand demonstrating that he, at least, knows how predictably stupid Elayne is guaranteed to be and can at least try to manipulate her by exploiting her need to do the opposite of what has been logically argued to her by her friends and loved ones. Aviendha's concern for the future genocide of her people seemed to be preeminent in her mind for a good 5 seconds... instead kibitzing with Elayne while she's suppose to be trying to manage her people's genocide. Last battle people, heads in the game.

Edited by mbuehner

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is something that I just can't make sense of in regard to Logain's faction being slowly 13x13'd and I am wondering if you all can explain this to me..

 

Why are we seeing the Asha'man that were with Logain s l o w l y showing up as being turned? How would this be possible unless Logain's entire group was accosted and captured all at the same time? If this is true, then, unless Logain was killed during this event (which we know cannot be the case due to Min's viewing), why wouldn't he have been the first to be turned?

 

IF Logain's group was not all captured at once, and they are being singularly captured as they randomly return to the Black Tower, this seems.. odd. Since the Dreamspike is in place, wouldn't the inability to Travel directly to the BT immediately raise an alarm in Logain's group? After they send one Asha'man back to the tower to see what is going on, and he doesn't return, wouldn't you stop sending them?

 

Anyone have any ideas here?

 

I really hope this is thoroughly explained in aMoL or I am going to be peeved.

Edited by Logoth

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't remember exactly but is it referenced anywhere in chapter 1 or the prologue that Rand was writing a letter to Elayne? I initially assumed the letter was a fake sent by a darkfriend trying to get Elayne to go against the meeting at FOM.

Clearly though, if it was previously mentioned rand was sending a letter I would feel less likely that it was a fake letter in chapter 2.

 

Never mind that. He had to send to Elayne. The proper course was to send help for evacuating the city, Asha’man and loyal Aes Sedai to make gateways and free as many people as possible—and to make certain that for now, the Trollocs remained in Caemlyn.

 

It doesn't show him writing the letter but it's clear that he meant to communicate with her by some means other than talking to her directly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There is something that I just can't make sense of in regard to Logain's faction being slowly 13x13'd and I am wondering if you all can explain this to me..

 

Why are we seeing the Asha'man that were with Logain s l o w l y showing up as being turned? How would this be possible unless Logain's entire group was accosted and captured all at the same time? If this is true, then, unless Logain was killed during this event (which we know cannot be the case due to Min's viewing), why wouldn't he have been the first to be turned?

 

IF Logain's group was not all captured at once, and they are being singularly captured as they randomly return to the Black Tower, this seems.. odd. Since the Dreamspike is in place, wouldn't the inability to Travel directly to the BT immediately raise an alarm in Logain's group? After they send one Asha'man back to the tower to see what is going on, and he doesn't return, wouldn't you stop sending them?

 

Anyone have any ideas here?

 

I really hope this is thoroughly explained in aMoL or I am going to be peeved.

it is not as they return to the bt, they were separated likely for various reasons. did logain show up at the seafolk with his pals? nope he was alone. and almost every person who channels is completely unaware of the idea of a dream spike, and is very aware of the problems in the world, that have also effected the one power. so yes alarm bells, but there is no specific target for the alarm. don't forget that some permanent weaves have failed (the wards in the white tower) some weaves that should always work (preserving food, pretty sure both the asha'man and aes'sedai use these) and then there was the area near ebou dar for the asha'man that seemed funky, and also seemed odd to the damane/sul'dam. things are messing up, so an alarm might go up, and there is only one thing they can think of to blame, the dark one, but what exactly can they do about that. that is why rand sent someone to caemlyn to go to the black tower from there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't remember exactly but is it referenced anywhere in chapter 1 or the prologue that Rand was writing a letter to Elayne? I initially assumed the letter was a fake sent by a darkfriend trying to get Elayne to go against the meeting at FOM.

Clearly though, if it was previously mentioned rand was sending a letter I would feel less likely that it was a fake letter in chapter 2.

 

Never mind that. He had to send to Elayne. The proper course was to send help for evacuating the city, Asha’man and loyal Aes Sedai to make gateways and free as many people as possible—and to make certain that for now, the Trollocs remained in Caemlyn.

 

It doesn't show him writing the letter but it's clear that he meant to communicate with her by some means other than talking to her directly.

 

thx for that, i didn't look close enough to find the right quote.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is interesting. I was quite unhappy with some of the first chapter (not all of it, but I had some major qualms), but most other people seemed to think it was good. The view seems to have changed with this chapter; I wonder how much of that has to do with the audio format. That was definitely...slow. I found myself thinking, "Wow twenty minutes have passed; what's happened exactly?"

 

Anyway, with the actual content, mistakes and all, I had the same problem I usually do with BS's WoT stuff, which is mainly the lack of effort. He quit his reread somewhere in TSR I think, and it really shows. I mean, it's uncommon to not reread your own books before continuing with a series, let alone someone else's, and let alone with a vast series like WoT. The mistakes are where it shows most evidently, but it effects the characterization and everything too. Considering the great opportunity BS was given with WoT, and the huge impact it's had on his career, it just seems...poor repayment. If he wasn't going to commit to it properly, he should have told them to give the task to someone else. With all the inconsistencies that we the fans have no problem seeing immediately...it just doesn't seem like he's as familiar with the series as you would hope. And I'm not sure how the editing team doesn't catch the more straightforward mistakes at least. Makes you wonder how many are in there originally I suppose.

 

Sorry, rant over; I just find the whole thing odd. I can't help but feel that something we enjoy is being treated with extreme cynicism.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...