Rand will break the Wheel of Time

[Edynol]

Yes. He can seal him away to where he is irrelivent until someone breaks him out, but he can't kill him.

[Conan]

So there is no physical presence to DO but there is a voice. what about fain he can die right.

[fionwe1987]

So when rand says he Is going to kill the DO he can't do that because the DO is not a being but an entity like the creator?

The DO can be destroyed. But the amount of balefire needed to destroy him, per RJ, is enough to destroy all of Creation too. The Dark One and the Creator basically have Mutually Assured Destruction.

So there is no physical presence to DO but there is a voice. what about fain he can die right.

There is a physical presence to the DO. He is manifested as Shaidar Haran.

 

As for Fain... we have no idea if he can be killed. Whatever Mordeth learned from the Finn, it was enough to keep him "alive" for two thousand years. Fain's powers seem to represent the corruption of the Creator's own power, and they have also resulted in Mordeth/Fain being able to side-step the Pattern.

 

And whoever said the DO's power and Fain's repel each other... read the books will you? They destroy each other on contact. All of the evil in SL was enough to destroy the taint on Saidin. It is highly unlikely, however, that Fain is enough to destroy the Dark One. Make him temporarily withdraw into his prison to avoid contact, maybe. But there is no automatic repulsion between them.

[Lacanos]

Yes. He can seal him away to where he is irrelivent until someone breaks him out, but he can't kill him.

 

That's what we, and Moridin, think.

However, we can be wrong.

[Halleck]

Just from the way books are written I think Rand will at least kill the DO. Why write about an age that is no different than any other age? So based off nothing in the series I would be willing to put my neck out there and say Rand kills the DO.

 

On a side not, I know this isn't off topic. But could someone explain why the Wheel is even still turning? I distinctly remember Ishamael saying that the Dragon had served the DO in the past and the way it is presented in the series is that if Rand turns bad then the DO breaks free and wins. Of course good old Ishamael could have been lying but for some reason I never doubted his statement.

[Suttree]

Just from the way books are written I think Rand will at least kill the DO. Why write about an age that is no different than any other age?

 

Because that is how circular time works. Both RJ out of text and Herid Fel in text are quite clear on this. The prison will be made whole without a patch.

 

LoC Ch. 18

"What? Yes, exactly the point. It can’t be the Last Battle. Even if the Dragon Reborn seals the Dark One’s prison again as well as the Creator made it. Which I don’t think he can do." He leaned forward and lowered his voice conspiratorially. "He isn’t the Creator, you know, whatever they say in the streets. Still, it has to be sealed up again by somebody. The Wheel, you see."

"I don’t see... " Rand trailed off.

"Yes, you do. You’d make a good student." Snatching his pipe out, Herid drew a circle in the air with the stem. "The Wheel of Time. Ages come and go and come again as the Wheel turns. All the catechism." Suddenly he stabbed a point on that imaginary wheel. "Here the Dark One’s prison is whole. Here, they drilled a hole in it, and sealed it up again." He moved the bit of the pipe along the arc he had drawn. "Here we are. The seal’s weakening. But that doesn’t matter, of course." The pipestem completed the circle. "When the Wheel turns back to here, back to where they drilled the hole in the first place, the Dark One’s prison has to be whole again."

 

 

On a side not, I know this isn't off topic. But could someone explain why the Wheel is even still turning? I distinctly remember Ishamael saying that the Dragon had served the DO in the past and the way it is presented in the series is that if Rand turns bad then the DO breaks free and wins. Of course good old Ishamael could have been lying but for some reason I never doubted his statement.

 

Rand has been turned but the end result was a draw. There are degrees of victory for the DO. He just has never won an "ultimate victory" which only needs to happen once and it's game over.

[Elan Tedronai]

Just from the way books are written I think Rand will at least kill the DO. Why write about an age that is no different than any other age? So based off nothing in the series I would be willing to put my neck out there and say Rand kills the DO.

 

On a side not, I know this isn't off topic. But could someone explain why the Wheel is even still turning? I distinctly remember Ishamael saying that the Dragon had served the DO in the past and the way it is presented in the series is that if Rand turns bad then the DO breaks free and wins. Of course good old Ishamael could have been lying but for some reason I never doubted his statement.

 

kill him with what? callandor? lol.

 

The creator who made the pattern and the wheel cannot kill the DO. What makes you think a mortal can?

 

As for ishy, the dragon can serve the DO tomorrow and it will make no difference as long shaitan is behind bars.

 

Shaitan only wins if he is able to break free. That's his aim. Who do you think kept the bore for a hundred years when lanfear drilled into his prison? It was't your local wisdom

[fikkie77]

We don't know whether the Creator can't kill the DO. We only know he hasn't killed the DO.

[RandA lThor]

Then if he hasn't, I'm pretty sure he has a pretty good reason for not doing so that rand will not break.

[fikkie77]

It might be something as simple as not wanting to interfere. Which also means he won't interfere if Rand would try to. (also if that would mean that Rand would die trying)

[RandA lThor]

Or it might be because balance is necessary. For there to be good, there must be bad. there is always order and that must be kept. Destroying the DO who is the entity that represents evil and chaos and is the counterpart of the creator is not possible by a person, as much as you can hope. even sealing the bore is incredibly hard, how are you going to reach inside their and kill the most powerful evil person who has powers almost equal to the Creator himself.

 

On a philosophical point of view, let's examine what happens without the DO. Without the DO or the driving force of evil, evil is banished, order is gone. Only good remains, but then if everything is good, the definition of good goes away, there are only actions. to destroy the morality of an action is abolutely horrific. The entire concept of Light and Dark would vanish, and the creator himself would not be a force of good, but just a force. Then, something would evolve that seperates actions and the Creator and the new entity would face off. these actions would come to be known as good and bad, and the DO lives on.

[Orderofolde]

Sorry, havent been trolling the forums lately so if this horse has been beat to death and boyond, forgive me.

 

 

Rand must break the Wheel in order for this to be "The Last Battle". As Harid Fel states, eventually they will bore into the prison again due to the Wheel. At some point it was whole, at some point they drilled into it, at some point they patched it. It will all just come around again and again.

 

Peace

 

(Cant wait for the next book. I get wood thinking about it)

I posited this months ago in another discussion that Rand likely would break the Wheel allowing time to thus be linear, and for men to make their own destinies. It kind of makes sense for the unexpected but awesome ending, that and Rand settling down to rebuild his father's farm to live a quiet life. Too many authors opt for the death of the hero or riding off into the sunset with the Elves and their Gray Ships. I kind of picked up on it that RJ was never pleased with that and the beginning to LOTR. He never said the ending but he mentioned the beginning and "other things" in Tolkein he didn't agree with. It'll still be an awesome ending and likely have twists we can't as yet guess.

[Mr Ares]

On a philosophical point of view, let's examine what happens without the DO. Without the DO or the driving force of evil, evil is banished, order is gone. Only good remains, but then if everything is good, the definition of good goes away, there are only actions.

That doesn't follow. If evil goes away then the only actions are good actions. That is, unless you define good solely in opposition to evil rather than by any intrinsic property. In that case, the lack of evil to oppose results in their being no good. Of course, if good can be defined in its own right, not merely in opposition to evil, then getting rid of evil does not get rid of good.

 

I think I have figured it out. That is, why noobs come up with this theory all the time, and no one else seems to consider it. The theory gets introduced a lot, but always by someone with a really low post count (and usually really bad grammar too), and it just seemed odd that so many different people were coming to the same strange conclusion. (In other words, I was honestly confused as to why.)

 

Anyway, it must have something to do with Fain's scene in TOM, where he says he needs a new name, and he's headed toward Shayol Ghul. I think that casual readers such as yourself see that and think 'Padan Fain is going to be the new Dark One', but those of us who have been around for a while know better. (And I imagine many others do too.)

Of course, that doesn't explain why people were coming up with this theory before ToM.

[Terez]

Anyway, it must have something to do with Fain's scene in TOM, where he says he needs a new name, and he's headed toward Shayol Ghul. I think that casual readers such as yourself see that and think 'Padan Fain is going to be the new Dark One', but those of us who have been around for a while know better. (And I imagine many others do too.)

Of course, that doesn't explain why people were coming up with this theory before ToM.

 

Were they? I don't recall. I remember seeing it for the first time relatively recently (a year ago, maybe two), and several times since. Maybe I wasn't hanging out on Dragonmount enough to notice.

[Mr Ares]

Anyway, it must have something to do with Fain's scene in TOM, where he says he needs a new name, and he's headed toward Shayol Ghul. I think that casual readers such as yourself see that and think 'Padan Fain is going to be the new Dark One', but those of us who have been around for a while know better. (And I imagine many others do too.)

Of course, that doesn't explain why people were coming up with this theory before ToM.

Were they? I don't recall. I remember seeing it for the first time relatively recently (a year ago, maybe two), and several times since. Maybe I wasn't hanging out on Dragonmount enough to notice.

I remember reading this theory at least once before, and that was before RJ died. Never a common theory, but not a recent one.

[fikkie77]

Or it might be because balance is necessary. For there to be good, there must be bad. there is always order and that must be kept. Destroying the DO who is the entity that represents evil and chaos and is the counterpart of the creator is not possible by a person, as much as you can hope. even sealing the bore is incredibly hard, how are you going to reach inside their and kill the most powerful evil person who has powers almost equal to the Creator himself.

 

On a philosophical point of view, let's examine what happens without the DO. Without the DO or the driving force of evil, evil is banished, order is gone. Only good remains, but then if everything is good, the definition of good goes away, there are only actions. to destroy the morality of an action is abolutely horrific. The entire concept of Light and Dark would vanish, and the creator himself would not be a force of good, but just a force. Then, something would evolve that seperates actions and the Creator and the new entity would face off. these actions would come to be known as good and bad, and the DO lives on.

not true. At least not in the Wheel of Time. Mordeth proves that there's evil beyond the Dark One. Mierin wasn't a very good person before the drilling of the bore.

Without the bore and the notion of the Dark One, people will still do evil, wars will still be waged. Which is proven by the vision Aviendha had in Rhuidean.

[ChaosBorn]

Or it might be because balance is necessary. For there to be good, there must be bad. there is always order and that must be kept. Destroying the DO who is the entity that represents evil and chaos and is the counterpart of the creator is not possible by a person, as much as you can hope. even sealing the bore is incredibly hard, how are you going to reach inside their and kill the most powerful evil person who has powers almost equal to the Creator himself.

 

On a philosophical point of view, let's examine what happens without the DO. Without the DO or the driving force of evil, evil is banished, order is gone. Only good remains, but then if everything is good, the definition of good goes away, there are only actions. to destroy the morality of an action is abolutely horrific. The entire concept of Light and Dark would vanish, and the creator himself would not be a force of good, but just a force. Then, something would evolve that seperates actions and the Creator and the new entity would face off. these actions would come to be known as good and bad, and the DO lives on.

 

Sounds a lot like the world we live in, doesn't it?

 

In general though I Don't find the idea of the Dark One being sealed away and the Wheel continuing on as per normal a satisfactory ending. It might just be the idealist in me wanted an ending where the Dark One dies and the future is human kinds to shape, not having fixed point as there is now.

 

There are, obviously, merits for both theories but I would like to see this turning of the wheel as unique, otherwise why write a series about it?

[RandA lThor]

This series was written because even each original turning of the wheel has its own extraordinary events that make it spectacular and the story of the hero is amazing. He could have just as easily wrote a series about LTT that would turn into a tragedy. However, I think the proper sealing of the bore would be a good ending for me.

[Elan Tedronai]

Or it might be because balance is necessary. For there to be good, there must be bad. there is always order and that must be kept. Destroying the DO who is the entity that represents evil and chaos and is the counterpart of the creator is not possible by a person, as much as you can hope. even sealing the bore is incredibly hard, how are you going to reach inside their and kill the most powerful evil person who has powers almost equal to the Creator himself.

 

On a philosophical point of view, let's examine what happens without the DO. Without the DO or the driving force of evil, evil is banished, order is gone. Only good remains, but then if everything is good, the definition of good goes away, there are only actions. to destroy the morality of an action is abolutely horrific. The entire concept of Light and Dark would vanish, and the creator himself would not be a force of good, but just a force. Then, something would evolve that seperates actions and the Creator and the new entity would face off. these actions would come to be known as good and bad, and the DO lives on.

 

Sounds a lot like the world we live in, doesn't it?

 

In general though I Don't find the idea of the Dark One being sealed away and the Wheel continuing on as per normal a satisfactory ending. It might just be the idealist in me wanted an ending where the Dark One dies and the future is human kinds to shape, not having fixed point as there is now.

 

There are, obviously, merits for both theories but I would like to see this turning of the wheel as unique, otherwise why write a series about it?

 

 

 

You dont find it satisfactory because the story was told from the middle towards the end.

 

 

That's robert jordan biggest mistake. This series is about redemption and correction made by a tragic Aes sedai namely LTT. He went from being powerful arrogant king of kings to a broken man in a span of second who murdered his own family and broke the world.

 

 

The redemption is rand trying to fix the mess of yesteryear. Unfortnately a large part of the narartive has been hidden.

[Tyler Glembo]

Interesting thread. During my readings I've often thought about whether or not Rand might kill the DO, but then I thought, "Huh, RJ titled his series the Wheel of Time, it wouldn't really make sense for the entire series called the Wheel of Time to be all about how there ends up not being a Wheel of Time."

 

My couple of other thoughts:

 

1) Nothing can be sealed in the DO's prison except the DO. Not the Forsaken/Chosen, not Fain, not anything. Why? Well, because when Mieren and Biedomon bored in to the prison they did not release any thing else except the DO. If something had been sealed in there then when the WoT came back around it would have been let out again, but there was nothing except the DO. (I suppose the DO could have just consumed something locked in with him but I don't like that answer). Also, I think that in order for the seal to actually work it must be a perfectly homogenous mixture of saidar/saidin with no inhomogeniety. In other words, a couple of forsaken in there would screw up the "perfectness" of the seal, and it must be perfect. It must be a mixture of saidar/saidin that has been mixed with so much power that, like nuclear fusion, saidar/saidin fuse into a single entity forming the perfect holding cell.

 

2) Fain won't become a new DO. The DO is an elemental force, much like the creator, and it is the mixing of these forces, like ying and yang chasing each other around a circle, the moves the Wheel of Time and allows for the Age Lace to be spun. Fain is not an elemental force and won't become one. *This is why the DO can control who touches the "True Source" and how much they get, because the DO is essentially the True Source manifested.

*I know the WoT is supposed to be pushed by saidar/saidin, but I think that is only how the characters in the novel are able to view it and maybe not the truth of it.

 

3) I suppose RJ could just retell the story of Horus which has been retold so many times, whether with the name Attis or Jesus or Mitthra, where the protagonist dies and is resurrected and by doing so defeats evil. But, I wouldn't be satisfied with that because I've read the stories of Horus and Hercules and Jesus and Harry Potter and etc., so I'd much rather see something different for a change. Unfortunately, I do fear that Rand/LTT will die, be resurrected, and in doing so manage to seal the DO. I think Rand must be resurrected because there have been way too many times where Rand thought about it and "dared to hope" that he might survive for him to really die off.

 

 

 

Thoughts?

[Sightblinder'sMinder]

This is the "Last Battle" for the characters in the text but in reality it has happened many times before. Per RJ there is nothing unique about this age.

I thought he said that Fain was unique

 

My theory (probably other people's theory as well): Rand & Moridin must unite like Slayer (Isam & Luc) in order to kill Padan Fain. It's Fain's "some other evil" that threatens to destroy the Wheel. And, if it really is the Last Battle, rather than a Last Battle, Fain may very well win out and destroy the Creator, and Shai'tan along with him.

 

This, of course, would mean the Dark One is a false antagonist, whereas Fain is the real villain, which may seem like a stretch, but if you consider the fact that Fain is the very first villain introduced in the series, it doesn't seem quite so outlandish as it first sounds. If Fain can rival the DO with some kind of other power that lies outside the pattern, he can threaten the Creation itself.

 

Plus, if Rand & Moridin were to merge souls, like Slayer, it would parallel the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai (Light & Dark as One).

 

Just a thought.

[Entreri]

Will be interesting to see if Rand can discover a more permanent solution to the infinite cycle of free/imprionsed Shai'tan.

[thisguy]

If Rand somehow destroyed the wheel and set time on a linear path, would that destroy everybody's chance at reincarnation? It might. I wouldn't like that ending, personally.