Three oaths, subconsciously lying

[Arkane101]

I was rereading and I was up to where egwene and nynaeve speak in TAR in the white tower and egwene has a go and almost gets nynaeve to drink something horrible cause she always lies to make herself look better. I thought does the oath against lying stop you if you say something you believe on the outside but subconsciously not believe in. such as nynaeve saying she never says things to make herself look better. Now I know she want bound back then but if she was, how would it work?

[Mandro]

ALL of the oaths are a lie. Anyone who doesn't think the warders cloak isn't a weapon is a fool, yet the fabric is made by a terangreal, which by Def uses the power, and cover and concealment are the FIRST two things you learn after not stabbing or shooting yourself in the face while reloading.

 

The Warders cloak is a WEAPON! A multi-purpose one, but still, a weapon.

[Thor]

Actually, fancloth was a fashion statement back in the AOL, so it's not really a weapon.

[Alric]

I'm not onboard with the weapon thing. I will admit that its a matter of linguistics and that you can argue forever, but I imagine that fancloth is camouflage and although probably military technology, still not a weapon. I'm not sure it uses the power either, it is just made with the help of it, but as long as its not a weapon it doesn't matter if it uses it.

 

And no, I don't believe the oaths are "a lie" no matter what that is supposed to mean. They are imperfect and may have outlived their usefulness and have contributed to distrust of AS, I don't even like them myself, but they are a perfectly understanable and logical part of the world (similar to law and political systems).

 

 

[Alric]

I thought does the oath against lying stop you if you say something you believe on the outside but subconsciously not believe in. such as nynaeve saying she never says things to make herself look better. Now I know she want bound back then but if she was, how would it work?

I believe that the oaths would stop her. She is not stupid. If she suspects something but tries to suppress she shouldn't be able to say it. But if she believes something for good reason she could still say it even when presented with good arguments against it. The only argument I can think of against this is Elaida but I think "stupid" is the factor in that case.

[mb]

I think I remember the scene; though I am not entirely sure. Providing book and chapter would help.

 

If I remember correctly, neither of them was bound to the Oath Rod yet.

And if I remember correctly, the drink was only a threat.

[CUBAREY]

Anyone who doesn't think the warders cloak isn't a weapon is a fool, yet the fabric is made by a terangreal, which by Def uses the power, and cover and concealment are the FIRST two things you learn after not stabbing or shooting yourself in the face while reloading.

 

This is only true in modern warfare. In pre-industrial societies "Warriors fought in the open, only assassins and other disreputable persons (ninjas in Classical Japanese culture were deemed rogues) hid themselves.

 

Further the essance of the Oath is that an AS shall not make a "weapon" a cloak is more akin to a shield, not an offensive weapon so would not be deemed to contravine the oath.

[Agitel]

We've also seen how Aes Sedai can falsify the truth without speaking an untrue word, I don't think it's that difficult to see how literally they can take the oaths, and literally a camouflaged cloak isn't a weapon, it's stealth tool.

[Suttree]

ALL of the oaths are a lie. Anyone who doesn't think the warders cloak isn't a weapon is a fool, yet the fabric is made by a terangreal, which by Def uses the power, and cover and concealment are the FIRST two things you learn after not stabbing or shooting yourself in the face while reloading.

 

The Warders cloak is a WEAPON! A multi-purpose one, but still, a weapon.

 

Call me a fool I guess. So in real life are the companies that make fatigues for the military considered weapon manufacturers?

[Sharaman]

The relevant oath is "to make no weapon for one man to kill another ". Since fancloth isn't normally used by warders to kill people, it's cool. We've seen for example, Siuan make a knife of air which is much more obviously a weapon - she was however, absolutely sure that it couldn't be used to kill somebody.

Of course if warders practiced strangling or smothering people with fancloth ---

[Mandro]

Anyone who doesn't think the warders cloak isn't a weapon is a fool, yet the fabric is made by a terangreal, which by Def uses the power, and cover and concealment are the FIRST two things you learn after not stabbing or shooting yourself in the face while reloading.

 

This is only true in modern warfare. In pre-industrial societies "Warriors fought in the open, only assassins and other disreputable persons (ninjas in Classical Japanese culture were deemed rogues) hid themselves.

 

Further the essance of the Oath is that an AS shall not make a "weapon" a cloak is more akin to a shield, not an offensive weapon so would not be deemed to contravine the oath.

 

Tell that to Tika the Barbarian from the Dragonlance Novels. She was a Master of the "shield bash." :)

[LeeM.Erickson]

The relevant oath is "to make no weapon for one man to kill another ".

 

I've always wondered if they could make weapons for women. Now, you can argue that that's simply semantics, and that it's understood that "for one man" probably means all humans...but it's no different a loophole than what Verin used to get out of her BA oaths, which are also sworn on the Oath Rod. The Rod seems to bind to the letter of the law, rather than the spirit of it.

[Mandro]

ALL of the oaths are a lie. Anyone who doesn't think the warders cloak isn't a weapon is a fool, yet the fabric is made by a terangreal, which by Def uses the power, and cover and concealment are the FIRST two things you learn after not stabbing or shooting yourself in the face while reloading.

 

The Warders cloak is a WEAPON! A multi-purpose one, but still, a weapon.

 

Call me a fool I guess. So in real life are the companies that make fatigues for the military considered weapon manufacturers?

 

Well, in a way yes. Not to be offensive, as long as ANYTHING is used to fascilitate the ability of another to accomplish the lack of vascular and resperatory action of another, KNOWING that that is going to be the purpose for which that your material will be applied, then it is no longer material, but rather Materiel. The only people with the color shifting cloaks or materiels made of such material, are Warders. There job is to protect their AS, and kill their enemies.

 

That's called "Materiel."

[Mandro]

The relevant oath is "to make no weapon for one man to kill another ". Since fancloth isn't normally used by warders to kill people, it's cool. We've seen for example, Siuan make a knife of air which is much more obviously a weapon - she was however, absolutely sure that it couldn't be used to kill somebody.

Of course if warders practiced strangling or smothering people with fancloth ---

 

thus me calling it a lie. Can an AS say "Well, I can make a sword, since it's not the sword that kills people, it's the arm of the warder that kills people. That arm just happens to be carrying this nice decorative sword I made for him?"

[Mandro]

How about? "I've never made a weapon for one man to kill another, I totally built that word, not power activated terrangreal that can destroy an entire city for this butch chick 3 years ago, and trust me, she was no man."

[Mr Ares]

ALL of the oaths are a lie. Anyone who doesn't think the warders cloak isn't a weapon is a fool, yet the fabric is made by a terangreal, which by Def uses the power, and cover and concealment are the FIRST two things you learn after not stabbing or shooting yourself in the face while reloading.

 

The Warders cloak is a WEAPON! A multi-purpose one, but still, a weapon.

 

Call me a fool I guess. So in real life are the companies that make fatigues for the military considered weapon manufacturers?

 

Well, in a way yes. Not to be offensive, as long as ANYTHING is used to fascilitate the ability of another to accomplish the lack of vascular and resperatory action of another, KNOWING that that is going to be the purpose for which that your material will be applied, then it is no longer material, but rather Materiel. The only people with the color shifting cloaks or materiels made of such material, are Warders. There job is to protect their AS, and kill their enemies.

 

That's called "Materiel."

No, Mandro, that's called "a stretch." Do the AS know that "facilitating the ability of one to accomplish the lack of vascular and respiratory action of another" is the use to which their cloaks will be put? No. A Warder's job is to protect his AS, a job which can be accomplished through the application of non-lethal measures. Even helping to mark someone as Warder and AS can help to reduce the risk to the AS. Simply put, you apply an overly broad definition of "weapon". People disagreeing with how use that word does not make the Oath a lie.

[spoke]

On the fancloth argument. The ter'angreal doesn't make the cloaks, just the material or the cloth. So no, it doesn't use the power to make the "weapon." Seamstresses or Tailors do that. It is no different than an Aes Sedai taking metal out of rocks and creating stock metal that will eventually be forged into a sword.

[Roxinos]

Also, as far as I'm aware, if a ter'angreal can kill something, the Oaths do not prevent an Aes Sedai from using that as a weapon. So long as the ter'angreal in question does not require the Aes Sedai to channel.

 

Yes, it is all a matter of semantics. However, does that make the Oaths lies? No, not in the slightest. Because the vast majority (read: all Aes Sedai except the Black) believe them to work the way they were intended to work.

 

Also, creating something which can be used as a weapon is not the same as creating a weapon. Aes Sedai can make a rope with the Power. But a rope can be used to strangle someone. (Hell, anything can be used to kill with.)

[LeeM.Erickson]

Also, creating something which can be used as a weapon is not the same as creating a weapon. Aes Sedai can make a rope with the Power. But a rope can be used to strangle someone. (Hell, anything can be used to kill with.)

 

Yeah, remember Lan's quote...anything can be used as a weapon, if the wielder has the will to make it so (paraphrasing). A pencil could be used to stab somebody but I think an Aes Sedai could still make one if she wanted.

[jsbrads]

cloaks ain't weapons

 

AS don't make those cloaks (or the cloth) and they didn't make the terangreal, pre AoL AS did, and they didn't have these silly oaths, they were called servants of all and only got the binding if they failed to be good people repeatedly.

 

sorry bad example

[LeeM.Erickson]

cloaks ain't weapons

 

AS don't make those cloaks (or the cloth) and they didn't make the terangreal, pre AoL AS did, and they didn't have these silly oaths, they were called servants of all and only got the binding if they failed to be good people repeatedly.

 

sorry bad example

 

I totally agree that the idea of Warder cloaks being weapons is ridiculous. But, I assume the Aes Sedai still have to channel to make the ter'angreal work. When Sheriam is explaining ter'angreal to Nynaeve, she mentions the idea of ter'angreal that don't need channeling to work as something pretty rare. The Warder cloak ter'angreal seems like it would be one of the most used ter'angreal in the Tower, probably along with the Oath Rod and the two testing ter'angreal. Which raises the question, does using a ter'angreal that IS a weapon (ie the balefire rod) count as breaking the Third Oath? I'm not sure or if this has been clarified, but if I had to guess, using say a flow of Spirit to activate a ter'angreal which is used as a weapon probably still counts as using the Power as a weapon. Could definitely be wrong about that, though.

[Ferdawoon]

Remember that it all depends on the view of the Aes Sedai. (Spoilers if you have not completed tGS or ToM)

 

Is the Aes Sedai, her warder or a Sister in danger then she can channel to attack anyone. That is why we see Aes Sedai join fierce battles (Dumai's Wells for example) because they cannot attack normal people unless they, their warder or a Sister, is threatened.

 

We see how Elaida can whip Egwene almost to death because she honestly think that Egwene is really a darkfriend, and the oath allow the power as a weapon against darkfriends.

 

We see how Egwene trick Sheriam into revealing that she can lie and by that show that she is of the Black Ajah. Apparently her saying "I misspoke, I did not know what I was answering" was not a legit excuse to the other Aes Sedai at the meeting.

 

If someone feel threatened then yes, they could absolutely use the Balefire Ter'angreal. If they just want to test it, sure. As long as they dont target someone it should be no problem.

You ask if she could channel into the Balefire ter'Angreal and attack someone who is not a darkfriend and while not really threatened? I would say that yes she could, if she in her heart believed that she only channeled to engage the ter'angreal and that the ter'angreal is the weapon. That she, in essence, think that she is not using the One Power as a weapon but that the ter'angreal is the weapon.