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Andhaira

Why doesn't the Dark One ressurect all previous forsaken?

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This has been bothering me. Why doesn't the Dark One simply ressurect all the forsaken who have ever served him since time began? Is this because DO can only ressurect someone who is bound to him (via those black threads) within a short time of their deaths?

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This has been bothering me. Why doesn't the Dark One simply ressurect all the forsaken who have ever served him since time began? Is this because DO can only ressurect someone who is bound to him (via those black threads) within a short time of their deaths?

 

He has a window of opportunity within which he can work before the soul is lost to him for good.

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I think the DO only has that power when he is nearly free and touching the world. Maybe the other forsaken had been dead too long when he could touch the world again this time, and of course the ones killed by balefire are beyond him.

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It is my understanding that the "Forsaken" are the dark channlers that the DO gave extra power, abilities, and immortality. All of them were trapped to some degree at the sealing. I don't think there were other Forsaken. Sure there were other dark channelers, but I don't think they ever rose to the level of Forsaken.

 

That then leads to the discussion of why can't the DO resurrect the various channelers that have died in this age (other than the balefired ones).

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It is my understanding that the "Forsaken" are the dark channlers that the DO gave extra power, abilities, and immortality. All of them were trapped to some degree at the sealing. I don't think there were other Forsaken. Sure there were other dark channelers, but I don't think they ever rose to the level of Forsaken.

 

That then leads to the discussion of why can't the DO resurrect the various channelers that have died in this age (other than the balefired ones).

 

He has resurrected all the forsaken that he was able to resurrect, but i doubt the DO would give a third chance to anyone...

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1. There is a finite window of opertunity.

 

2. The DO has to be ready during the window.

 

3. The person in question has to be one that the DO wants to keep in play or rather fits into his plan to destroy the pattern.

 

4. A suitable vessel(body) has to be available to put the soul/essence of the person in.

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I believe there were only 13 Forsaken, at least in the AoL. Lews Therin was merely lucky to find them at Shayol Ghul (ta'veren?) and that probably ended the War of the Shadow earlier than if they were left free. The downside is that they're around now...

Edited by Alric

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I believe there were only 13 Forsaken, at least in the AoL. Lews Therin was merely lucky to find them at Shayol Ghul (ta'veren?) and that probably ended the War of the Shadow earlier than if they were left free. The downside is that they're around now...

 

No, there were far more than 13 Forsaken in the AoL. The only reason the 13 are the only ones known as "Forsaken", is because they are the only ones who survived. When LTT struck at SG, the 13 that were present were the most powerful, most influential, most important. The rest were all forgoten in time because they all died in the Breaking. But during the War of Power any channeler who was on the DO's side was known as a Forsaken.

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Ah, well if that's what the term refers to there would obviously be a lot more. But what I was thinking was that the most powerful ones, or the leaders for that matter, were the ones that were trapped.

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Ah, well if that's what the term refers to there would obviously be a lot more. But what I was thinking was that the most powerful ones, or the leaders for that matter, were the ones that were trapped.

 

They were the leaders, or at least those who were at the top of the power chain. They weren't necessarily the strongest in the power, in fact for some of them it's very doubtful. However, they were those the DO favored the most, because of their abilies whether as generals, dreamers, governors, or spies.

Edited by Master Ablar

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Let me put this exactly how it is explained in TWOTWOT/TBWB:

 

Aes Sedai that turned to the Dark One in the Age of Legends were known as "Chosen".

The "Forsaken" were amongst the forefront of these "Chosen", either for power, contacts or great deeds.

 

Dreadlords came later - that was the name for Darkfriend channelers in the Trolloc War and later.

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Wasn't other channelers called dreadlords. And doesn't the name the forsaken call themselves "chosen" imply there favored above others?

 

The Dreadlords were the Shadows channelers during the Trolloc Wars. They took that name because they feared that the original Forsaken (or at least the 13 left) wouldn't be to happy with them if they had dared take the same "title". As far as being called "Chosen", I believe all Forsaken would have called themselves that. It came from them believing they were indeed favored by the DO and were "Chosen to rule the world forrever". Apart from Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Sammael, Graendal, and Semirhage who were always at the top, turnover was pretty common at the top of the power chain. The seven other current Forsaken were simply those who were at the top when LTT sealed the bore.

Edited by Master Ablar

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Also the term Forsaken was probably coined later on, wasn't it? Maybe people didn't think of them as the Forsaken back then, but they became known by that name later, during the Third Age. Before, they were just the highest up in the hierarchy of darkside channellers. They got trapped in the Bore because they were meeting with the DO when it was sealed. Then there was the Breaking, everything was over (almost). The memory became legend and they became known as the Forsaken, and used to frighten children in stories.

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They were called the Forsken in Rands visions of the AoL though when he went into Rhuidean in SR. They were called the forsaken in that age because they had forsaken their oaths as servants of all. I think.

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Also the term Forsaken was probably coined later on, wasn't it? Maybe people didn't think of them as the Forsaken back then, but they became known by that name later, during the Third Age. Before, they were just the highest up in the hierarchy of darkside channellers. They got trapped in the Bore because they were meeting with the DO when it was sealed. Then there was the Breaking, everything was over (almost). The memory became legend and they became known as the Forsaken, and used to frighten children in stories.

 

No, they were already known as Forsaken back in the AoL. Afterall they couldn't be called Aes Sedai anymore, and they weren't your run of the mill darkfriend. Then later on confusion and misunderstanding because of the Breaking led to the belief that only the sealed 13 were called Forsaken, while the rest were Dreadlords. Which is false. The Dreadlords were the Shadows channelers during the Trolloc Wars.

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They were called the Forsaken in Rands visions of the AoL though when he went into Rhuidean in SR. They were called the forsaken in that age because they had forsaken their oaths as servants of all. I think.

 

 

I don't know if they had oaths, but Rand refers to being the last male Aes Sedai properly raised and not turned to the Shadow. So perhaps oaths were part of the raising (though not oaths on an Oath Rod). Regardless, I imagine they're named so because the forsook the Light, more than anything else.

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Ishy asks Lanfear in TAR in the DR if she no longer serves the GLoTD as it will not be as easy as breaking the oaths she made to the light. Not the exact words but the general gist.

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It's clear that they didn't swear on the oath rod, but I'd assume they would still take some kind of formal oath. Many professions in our world require swearing oaths, after all.

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Moggy refers to the fact that "only 29" persons had ever been allowed to use TP. So there were at least that many top-level Chosen.

 

Technically it was 28 others, after all she was counting Ishmael who she didn't know at the time was Moridin.

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Like others have said the DO can't currently resurrect his followers who died in the AoL, or who have died while he was bound by the seals. He has a finite time in which to resurrect them after they die. This is why someone killed with balefire can't* be resurrected since they were die before they were killed (*Technically RJ said a BF'd person couldn't be resurrected unless the amount used was very small, thus a very slight reduction in the amount of time the DO has to work in........ this is why there are still theories that put Be'lal back into play since Moiraine could only kill someone a few seconds earlier). I say currently because there's no proof that he didn't resurrect his followers way back when before he was sealed up.... nothing saying he did either.

 

Let me put this exactly how it is explained in TWOTWOT/TBWB:

 

Aes Sedai that turned to the Dark One in the Age of Legends were known as "Chosen".

The "Forsaken" were amongst the forefront of these "Chosen", either for power, contacts or great deeds.

 

Dreadlords came later - that was the name for Darkfriend channelers in the Trolloc War and later.

 

Both are sort of correct... they're synonyms. All Aes Sedai who turned to the Dark One during the War of Power were called Forsaken....... by the Light. They called themselves The Chosen. So both Forsaken and Chosen mean the same thing. Sort of like "The Dark One" vs. "The Great Lord", it all just depends on your alignment. All the others were forgotten over the course of 3,000 years. The 13 who were sealed were remembered only because of their association with the sealing of the DO's prison. Even then that became legend and turned into incomprehensible sayings....... I mean how could the Forsaken be bound by the creator at the moment of creation if they'd been free in the AoL?

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I believe there were only 13 Forsaken, at least in the AoL. Lews Therin was merely lucky to find them at Shayol Ghul (ta'veren?) and that probably ended the War of the Shadow earlier than if they were left free. The downside is that they're around now...

 

No, there were far more than 13 Forsaken in the AoL. The only reason the 13 are the only ones known as "Forsaken", is because they are the only ones who survived. When LTT struck at SG, the 13 that were present were the most powerful, most influential, most important. The rest were all forgoten in time because they all died in the Breaking. But during the War of Power any channeler who was on the DO's side was known as a Forsaken.

 

The thirteen that were sealed were not necessarily the most powerful. RJ said that only six among them were at the top of the Forsaken hierarchy during the war of power. Obviously Ishamael, Demandred, Sammael and Lanfear were in that group. The other two I am not sure about.

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I believe there were only 13 Forsaken, at least in the AoL. Lews Therin was merely lucky to find them at Shayol Ghul (ta'veren?) and that probably ended the War of the Shadow earlier than if they were left free. The downside is that they're around now...

 

No, there were far more than 13 Forsaken in the AoL. The only reason the 13 are the only ones known as "Forsaken", is because they are the only ones who survived. When LTT struck at SG, the 13 that were present were the most powerful, most influential, most important. The rest were all forgoten in time because they all died in the Breaking. But during the War of Power any channeler who was on the DO's side was known as a Forsaken.

 

The thirteen that were sealed were not necessarily the most powerful. RJ said that only six among them were at the top of the Forsaken hierarchy during the war of power. Obviously Ishamael, Demandred, Sammael and Lanfear were in that group. The other two I am not sure about.

 

Do you have a quote for RJ saying that?

 

BWB

The survivors of this winnowing process, the thirteen most powerful of the Chosen, who were caught in the sealing of the Bore, are known in all cases but one by the Old Tongue names men had given them out of contempt. They are Aginor, Asmodean, Balthamel, Be'lal, Demandred, Graendal, Ishamael, Lanfear, Mesaana, Moghedien, Rahvin, Sammael, and Semirhage.

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