The One Power + The True Power

[Martagnan]

New to the boards, so be gentle with me :) Apologies if this has been gone over elsewhere!

 

One of the major themes in WoT is duality - male/female, light/dark, saidar/saidin... The One Power/The True Power.

 

Seeing as how The One Power is split (saidar/saidin)and split again (Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Spirit) has led me to muse upon The True Power having it's sub-divisions. Especially since Rand used it and instead of going cuckoo it was a trigger for his metamorphosis. Either 1)the Great Lor ...*cough*, Dark One's permission isn't needed or 2)we get to play with why did he grant the Dragon that favor?

 

The One Power and True Power share the "addictive" quality, the one extends life the other is certainly hinted to shorten it. With the One Power some are born with the "spark" while others can learn. With the True Power only the Chose...*cough**cough* FORSAKEN can touch it and now only the Nae'blis and the Dragon can (though I wonder about a strange too tall Myrddraal and if the True Power can block the Source...). The True Power also causes the saa to appear in one's eyes. We know the One Power works in Tel'aran'rhiod but I don't remember if there's any time that the True Power is used there. Oh - if I remember correctly there's also a strong indication that you don't have to be able to channel to touch the True Source. Users of the One Power vary in strength while that's not indicated with the True Power.

 

The perplexity in 1 and 2 above comes from the Dragon channeling the True Source when collared with the male a'dam. If the ... Dark One would prefer turning the Dragon to the Shadow what better way to achieve it? Unless, of course, he really wants the Dragon to face him ...

 

Anyway, just some thoughts :)

[SylvanFox]

I'm still waiting to see further consequences of Rand having used the TP. I think it will cause something to happen, but I don't know what.

 

On the first question, I think it is generally presumed that he got the TP through his link with Moridin. Still, it's hard to see whether or not the DO meant for this to happen. If he did, that just makes it more exciting.

[JKN-SW]

I always thought that both OP and TP used strands of the different elements to create the weaves? The power is only what makes the spinning possible, so the subdivision is tha same for them both?

 

Also I'm not sure the use of the TP was the trigger for VoG, was it? As to why the DO allowed Rand to use it, it has been discussed a lot. My take is that it came with the link between Rand and Moridin and that DO didn't give Rand the use per se. I would imagine that giving someone access to TP is given not for each time it is used, but rather as a permission to use it until the right is revoced. Or is there any info contradicting that?

 

Also I'm not sure that the OP or TP works in TAR. You can use it because you believe you can. If a non-channeler could imagine what it would be like to wield the OP he could probably channel in TAR. On the other hand, the mind is the real weapon in TAR, and using it to imagine that you are channeling is just a detour, and a less effective way.

[FarShainMael]

I believe you can channel Spirit in TAR, but none of the others. Dunno about the TP though.

[dhammett11]

I believe it was Moraine who said you can channel Spirit while asleep in general, not just in T'A'R. As in, a channeler in the waking world watching the sleeping channeler would be able to sense her holding the power and see the weaving of the flows of spirit. This is distinct from channeling in T'A'R where people in the real world don't sense any channeling.

[FarShainMael]

OK, thanks.

[Kahsm]

Also I'm not sure that the OP or TP works in TAR. You can use it because you believe you can. If a non-channeler could imagine what it would be like to wield the OP he could probably channel in TAR. On the other hand, the mind is the real weapon in TAR, and using it to imagine that you are channeling is just a detour, and a less effective way.

 

I believe you can channel Spirit in TAR, but none of the others. Dunno about the TP though.

 

I believe it was Moraine who said you can channel Spirit while asleep in general, not just in T'A'R. As in, a channeler in the waking world watching the sleeping channeler would be able to sense her holding the power and see the weaving of the flows of spirit. This is distinct from channeling in T'A'R where people in the real world don't sense any channeling.

 

While it is interesting idea that the channeling in TAR is basically psychosomatic, I will refer you to tFoH when Elayne and Nyneave start going to TAR together and they alternate using some of the other dream ter'angreal. One of them you had to actively channel into, and you still were very faint in TAR. While using that one both Elayne and Nynaeve said they COULD channel, but it was very difficult. Nynaeve says it was hard to even make a flame dance, one of the first tricks a novice is taught.

 

So if the channeling were "only in their heads" she wouldn't have any trouble doing it based on the ter'angreal she was using. She could still manipulate TAR just as easily in the other ways, she only mentioned channeling was harder.

 

Edit: Oh yeah, and the DO didn't give permission to Rand to use the TP. Rand wrestled it through his link with Moridin, who has permission. TP by proxy.

 

Just like if I brought my computer to your house, I could hook up to your internet connection through your router. I don't need to signup with your ISP again. ;)

[spoke]

Edit: Oh yeah, and the DO didn't give permission to Rand to use the TP. Rand wrestled it through his link with Moridin, who has permission. TP by proxy.

 

Just like if I brought my computer to your house, I could hook up to your internet connection through your router. I don't need to signup with your ISP again. ;)

 

That is your Theory, there is no consensus on that. Some argue that the DO gave him permission to use it (Shadar Haran was in the area, and could do something like that), in order to encourage Rand to corrupt Rand. Others argue that it came through his link with Moridin.

[Martagnan]

I'm doing a re-read in anitici . . . pation of the "last" book. The One Power can be channeled in T'A'R - just the "Dreamer" thing trumps it. (The Black sisters seem to rely on the OP in T'A'R).

 

In The Gathering Storm when Graendal channels the True Power - it's clearly stated again that it's a gift.

 

I'm now convinced that the Prophecies are being misunderstood in re the "three become one". I don't think that line refers to the Dragon and Callandor (though whatever happens WILL require saidar as well as saidan) but to Rand, LTT and Moridin. Now that he's "stood on his own grave and wept" LTT and Rand are integrated. With all the "blurry face" et cetera foreshadowing whenever Rand's channeled ... and that "no soul is so..." that we've heard a few times takes on new significance (see Verin). The archetype represented by Rand is total surrender to faith for redemption. Moridin is the antithesis of that. It would be a neat way (cleverly effective in character or execution: a neat scheme; a neat solution. 5:great; wonderful; fine:)of making the Grea ... Dark One's (lol)prison "whole" again if the Shadow's Champion repented.

 

I'm trying to keep in mind the Wheel. The books are the 3rd age, the Age of Legends would be the 2nd. At some point the Wheel turns to our own time (as witnessed by Nynaeve finding of the Mercedes Benz hood ornament when she stumbles across the male a'dam) so we have "our" Age and what comes before it to reduce us to ... well, whatever :D "Our" Age remembers the Dark one and Trollocs (as Satan and kobolds, devils, Effreets, demons, etc). We (the readers) have writings from the 4th Age ... I'm sorry, what were we discussing?

[LeeM.Erickson]

... I'm sorry, what were we discussing?

 

Yeah, I've had so many discussions about where "our world" fits on the Wheel in terms of its Age in reference to the ones we know about (Second, Third, and a tiny bit of Fourth). Is ours first? Last? Turns out, it's always a...circular...argument

[Mandro]

I am heavily invested in the numerology of the 3's. 3 TV, 3 Brides, 3 powers, fight ends in a link with 3, if you include the regional prophecy, there will be 3 powers, the east and south, the north and west, or whatever, and then the enemy, that is 3. The three markings, blah blah blah. I'm heavily invested in "The 3 becoming one" is about saida/saidin/TP all forming together through rand and his LB link.

[Kahsm]

Edit: Oh yeah, and the DO didn't give permission to Rand to use the TP. Rand wrestled it through his link with Moridin, who has permission. TP by proxy.

 

Just like if I brought my computer to your house, I could hook up to your internet connection through your router. I don't need to signup with your ISP again. ;)

 

That is your Theory, there is no consensus on that. Some argue that the DO gave him permission to use it (Shadar Haran was in the area, and could do something like that), in order to encourage Rand to corrupt Rand. Others argue that it came through his link with Moridin.

 

Seems like a grand miscalculation on the part of the DO then doesn't it?

[yoniy0]

Not to me. That a plan has failed doesn't mean that it was destined to.

[W_A]

Edit: Oh yeah, and the DO didn't give permission to Rand to use the TP. Rand wrestled it through his link with Moridin, who has permission. TP by proxy.

 

Just like if I brought my computer to your house, I could hook up to your internet connection through your router. I don't need to signup with your ISP again. ;)

 

That is your Theory, there is no consensus on that. Some argue that the DO gave him permission to use it (Shadar Haran was in the area, and could do something like that), in order to encourage Rand to corrupt Rand. Others argue that it came through his link with Moridin.

 

Seems like a grand miscalculation on the part of the DO then doesn't it?

 

I think that it actually worked perfectly according to plan up to VoG. I think the DO thought it would be worth sacrificing Semi to get Rand to access the TP, because then he would get addicted and become evil etc. The Light was very lucky that Rand had a revelation.

[Kahsm]

Edit: Oh yeah, and the DO didn't give permission to Rand to use the TP. Rand wrestled it through his link with Moridin, who has permission. TP by proxy.

 

Just like if I brought my computer to your house, I could hook up to your internet connection through your router. I don't need to signup with your ISP again. ;)

 

That is your Theory, there is no consensus on that. Some argue that the DO gave him permission to use it (Shadar Haran was in the area, and could do something like that), in order to encourage Rand to corrupt Rand. Others argue that it came through his link with Moridin.

 

Seems like a grand miscalculation on the part of the DO then doesn't it?

 

I think that it actually worked perfectly according to plan up to VoG. I think the DO thought it would be worth sacrificing Semi to get Rand to access the TP, because then he would get addicted and become evil etc. The Light was very lucky that Rand had a revelation.

 

Yes Rand says he came close to failing, in what way is that attributed to his use of the True Power? He was still vehemently working against the DO, even though it was in the wrong way.

 

I think the seductiveness would be quite trivial compared to the memory of strangling the woman you love with your own hands?

[Smittyphi]

The TP is seductive to those who belong to the DO. I would think channeling the TP and being Lightside would be akin to the taint pre-cleansing and affected Rand aversely instead of making him hunger to use the TP more. That was my interpretation.

[mb]

sub-title of this thread mentions Herid Fel.

What does Herid Fel got to do with this?

[Entreri]

Shai'tan plan was to corrupt Rand and have him destroy the WoT. It almost worked, this is TG, probably the only time the DO can win by turning the DR.

[LeeM.Erickson]

sub-title of this thread mentions Herid Fel.

What does Herid Fel got to do with this?

 

I think it means this type of subject is the sort of thing he'd have good opinions on, it's right up his alley.

 

Just a thought...Rand channeled the TP without knowing what it was. He thought he was someone just bending the Pattern to his own will IIRC. Since VoG, he has all of Lews Therin's memories again. He should be aware of what the True Power is. Has he made the connection that he himself has used it? I don't seem to remember anything about this in ToM.

[Jon Paul]

Just a thought...Rand channeled the TP without knowing what it was. He thought he was someone just bending the Pattern to his own will IIRC. Since VoG, he has all of Lews Therin's memories again. He should be aware of what the True Power is. Has he made the connection that he himself has used it? I don't seem to remember anything about this in ToM.

 

Yes, he's aware that he touched the True Power. He was aware of that in tGS. And he hinted to as much in the TOM when he was meeting the Borderlanders.

[SylvanFox]

sub-title of this thread mentions Herid Fel.

What does Herid Fel got to do with this?

 

I think it means this type of subject is the sort of thing he'd have good opinions on, it's right up his alley.

 

Just a thought...Rand channeled the TP without knowing what it was. He thought he was someone just bending the Pattern to his own will IIRC. Since VoG, he has all of Lews Therin's memories again. He should be aware of what the True Power is. Has he made the connection that he himself has used it? I don't seem to remember anything about this in ToM.

 

I'm pretty sure he did. LTT was in his head moaning and groaning about it, saying "it's him." I wonder why he just then noticed the TP being there. It seems like he would have sensed it before, having been linked to Moridin for a while. It seems like the link has been growing stronger over time, but that's not necessarily the reason. If the DO did mean for Rand to channel the TP, that might be why it was so suddenly there, visible and accessible. Maybe Moridin was drawing on the TP just then, with or without direction from the DO. If any of that it the case, Rand still might be at risk for TP addiction, because of Moridin's incessant need to draw on it.

 

I don't know, but I think I'll be a little disappointed if nothing else comes of Rand's TP use.

[Jon Paul]

I don't know, but I think I'll be a little disappointed if nothing else comes of Rand's TP use.

 

You mean his almost destroying the world wasn't enough for you?

[damandred]

I think why rand sensed the TP then had to do with need, he hadn't sensed saidin before his fight with Aginor but was desparate, same with what happened with sem but he couldn't use the OP. I think that was just as the DO wanted. Sem says something about the GL betraying her.

I don't think we will see Rand channelling any more TP, I think he had to be bad Rand to get him to VoG and now he's cured that's the end of that.

[BrennanTucker]

Has anyone given any thought as to when Nyneave miraculously cured that one asha'man of his madness that was caused by the taint? When she delved rand and noticed the black spikes in his mind except where there had been tens of them in the other guy, he had hundreds, maybe thousands? He had not used the power for very long before it was cleansed, does the link with moridin, his concurrent use of the TP, and possibly moridins CONSTANT use of the TP have anything to do with it do you think? What does his apparent madness mean for the future? And the light streaming out from his mind fighting off the dark spikes means that some how he is still in contest with the GL... I want to see where this leads us. Also, if we recall when Rand severed Asmodean from the DO, is this sort of the same power that nyneave has discovered for herself, or could she possibly use this in the future the way rand had against the forsaken themselves?

 

I want to recall for a moment a previous post on this thread, that possibly moridin/isha may come to repent their ways, because I mean as much as Rand is connected to moridin and exhibiting some of his characteristics, moridin is doing the same thing yes? This has been evidenced ever since the connection became apparent (which by the way I knew would happen when their balefire crossed paths in Aridhol, does this maybe allude to a trait of balefire that we do not understand as of yet?). I guess we will just have to wait and see.

 

Warrior

[Mulk]

Rand has channeled more of saidin in his few short years of doing so than pretty much anyone else, so he's taken in far more of the taint. At least, that was my assumption in looking at how much worse his madness was than Naeff's.

 

As to whether the True Power has any effect on it, I have no idea. I would guess not, as we see no "madness" analogous to what goes on in Asha'man in those who have channeled the True Power, but it's just my opinion.

 

Regarding whether anything comes of Rand's True Power use, Brandon said something along the lines of it will have a cost down the road, didn't he? I don't think he'll ever use it again, because he doesn't need it, but there will be some consequence of it.