Who will fight Shaidar Haran?

[Entreri]

But Fain can't be a match for Shaidar Haran. I mean, sure Fain can cause pain with a touch, but in order to do that he has to touch his victim. Shaidar Haran will simply blast him into ashes with black fire. Heck, we don't even know if SH can feel pain.

 

OTOH, Fain does have a reputation established in earlier books of dominating Fades. So who knows, there could be something to the SH vs Fain theory.

 

Personally, if it does happen, I hope SH destroy's Fain with hardly any effort. Then, a bunch of Asha'man unite and take out Fain. Many die in the process.

 

Fain of course controls what appears to Mashadar or something every similar as of TOM, Fain keeps on evolving:

 

ToM "Mist had begun to trail him, creeping up from the ground. Was that mist his madness, or was it his hatred? It was SO FAMILIAR. It twisted around his ankles and licked at his heels...THE MIST STRUCK. It rolled over the Trollocs quickly..."

 

Then after the Mist does its work, Fain controls a Zombie Trolloc army at his command. The Mist destroyed the Myddrraal and did not raise it up as a zombie.

 

Fain is not merely a mortal any longer. A being of immense power. Taint and Mashadar destroyed each other. SH vs. Fain could be such a battle.

[Entreri]

Maybe Gawain with the three bloodrings will take out Shaidar? He's a good enough swordsman and the shadow-warping effect might help, even or especially, against a Fade.

 

Sure against a Fade. Against SH, Gawyn would be utterly destroyed, even if he had x number of Seanchan assassins with him.

 

He will not be able to hide in the darkness against a creature of the Shadow. The extra speed ter'angrel provides will come in handy, but not fast enough to dodge the True Power.

 

I suspect Gawyn will freeze from the gaze of SH. Among the Lightsiders I think only Rand or Lan could survive that gaze and not freeze in terror.

[Red Hand Man]

This sounds like a job for the ter'angreal knife hiding you from shadowspawn.

[Crusader12]

This sounds like a job for the ter'angreal knife hiding you from shadowspawn.

 

Ah-ha. Fascinating idea. Not sure where it would lead, but it does open some doors doesn't it?

[Feral]

This sounds like a job for the ter'angreal knife hiding you from shadowspawn.

 

I just read about that knife the other day and thought, "I wonder if it's that going to come into play at some point." Good idea!

[Jon Paul]

Does Mat's medallion effect the True Power? if so, and if perfect copies can be made, then pretty much anyone could be up to it. Well, anyone who could stare a Fade in the face and spit at it laughing.. which would include very few people. Rand, Lan, Perrin and Mat have already proven that they can do it no problem. Well Mat could laugh. I can imagine Galad having no issue and as much as it pains me to admit it I don't think Gawyn would buckle under a Halfman's stare.

 

However this is the Hand of the Dark we're talking about.. so Gawyn fails. Which leaves the rest of them listed. Personally, I'm hoping for either Mat or Perrin. It will most likely be Mat. Perrin has Slayer, Rand has the Dark One, Elan and Barid (though I hope Mat gets Barid) and Lan has about a million Trollocs. Maybe Galad then?

 

Who knows? I want it to be epic and Galad butchering SH would be truly epic.

[Aleator77]

There is no real evidence that SH could rip apart armies or blademasters or anything else. He hasn't been shown to have any power except over those sworn to the shadow. Maybe he is all powerful like some of you say...but I see no real reason to assume it.

[Majsju]

I've been saying it for years - Just as SH is totally owning rand, Fain will jump out and stick his knife in SHs back. And by saving rand he gets his Gollum-moment everyone has been waiting for.

[Entreri]

"Does Mat's medallion effect the True Power?"

 

That would very likely be impossible. Mat's medallion is made from the One Power.

 

 

SH is no longer a mere Fade, "Hand of the Dark" is not a title given to any being (it also treats the Chosen like trash, calls the Black Ajah "My creatures"):

 

It can change its size (Messana encounter).

 

Use what appears to be the TP (various examples).

 

And block One Power users, various examples. Also 3 Lightside AS were dispatched without any resistance before Semirhage was freed (the tea was not used). Thus Lightsiders may not be immune to SH's capabilities.

 

A mere blademaster(s) would have no chance. Aside from Rand or Lan (possibly Mat), all of them would freeze in terror = easy kills. Lan and Mat would be kiled via the TP. After his transformation at Dragonmount, I do not believe Rand can be blocked in such a way like other Power wielders.

 

 

 

Just like Fain is no longer a mere human.

[TheTuninator]

I would actually love a showdown between Fain and SH. That would be truly fantastic.

[Duskfire]

There is no real evidence that SH could rip apart armies or blademasters or anything else. He hasn't been shown to have any power except over those sworn to the shadow. Maybe he is all powerful like some of you say...but I see no real reason to assume it.

 

SH can channel the TP. Therefore if any blademaster showed up, Shaidar Haran could simply blast them like any other channeler. And the fact that he is the Hand of the Dark probably means he is quite powerful in his own right.

 

No one will be able to kill SH in a straight out fight. He'll be taken care of some other way.

[kraefzke]

 

SH can channel the TP. Therefore if any blademaster showed up, Shaidar Haran could simply blast them like any other channeler. And the fact that he is the Hand of the Dark probably means he is quite powerful in his own right.

 

 

I see that there are a lot of ppl assuming so, but so far I have seen no evidence for this. Can you post a quote (from books or TJ either) where TP-use is stated right-out?

[Eht Slat Meit]

 

SH can channel the TP. Therefore if any blademaster showed up, Shaidar Haran could simply blast them like any other channeler. And the fact that he is the Hand of the Dark probably means he is quite powerful in his own right.

 

 

I see that there are a lot of ppl assuming so, but so far I have seen no evidence for this. Can you post a quote (from books or TJ either) where TP-use is stated right-out?

 

I won't call this solid proof, but I'd speculate that SH may be a physical manifestation of the last part of the dark prophecy at the end of ToM, and that this makes any "Hand" of Shaitan an amped up version of its former self. If the host can't do it, Shaitan can't do it through them. IMO.

 

"And then, shall the Lord of the Evening come. And He shall take our eyes, for our souls shall bow before Him, and He shall take our skin, for our flesh shall serve Him, and He shall take our lips, for only Him will we praise. And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion, and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful."

 

Might just be my overactive imagination, but that sounds a great deal like a possessed host, of which SH is the most obvious representative. Makes sense in the overall scheme of things as well; if Shaitan were truly free, bodies like SH would be completely pointless. The "last seal", so to speak.

[Duskfire]

 

SH can channel the TP. Therefore if any blademaster showed up, Shaidar Haran could simply blast them like any other channeler. And the fact that he is the Hand of the Dark probably means he is quite powerful in his own right.

 

 

I see that there are a lot of ppl assuming so, but so far I have seen no evidence for this. Can you post a quote (from books or TJ either) where TP-use is stated right-out?

 

He has created a black globe of light before, as well as burnt a spear to ashes using black fire. So unless these are completely new aspects of something we havent seen before, its the TP. Not to mention, it makes complete sense for the Do to bestow that power upon the Hand of the Dark.

[Luckers]

He has created a black globe of light before, as well as burnt a spear to ashes using black fire. So unless these are completely new aspects of something we havent seen before, its the TP. Not to mention, it makes complete sense for the Do to bestow that power upon the Hand of the Dark.

 

The bolded part is actually an entirely viable possibility, especially when added to the fact that Jordan and Brandon have both danced around this issue.

[Suttree]

DragonCon, 3 September 2005 - WinespringBrother reporting:

 

WinespringBrother: Is Shaidar Haran an avatar to the world beyond the Bore?

Jordan: I am not certain you can really call him an avatar because I generally think of an avatar as having exactly the same powers as, and it is not, Shaidar Haran does not have nearly as much power as the Dark One. It's as though the Dark One is able to project a shadowy form of himself into this creature - it is the Dark One in shadowy form.

 

Looking at the quote above think it would be safe to assume he can channel the TP.

[Colonel Gooch]

I think that the final battle card will line up like this:

 

Rand - Moridin and Fain

Mat - Demandred (mostly as opposing generals)

Perrin - Slayer

Nynaeve - Moghedien

Egwene - Graendal

Lan, Galad, Gawyn - Shadar Haran

 

I like your thoughts but for some reason I have a hunch Loial is going to do something very important in the Last Battle... perhaps he will help fight SH (not alone)

[myth87]

I thought I remembered somewhere SH commenting on his liabilities like not being able to be in the light and the fact that although he is amped up, he is still only a Fade. He might have fancy powers the others dont but still limited. Also, DO's hand or not he doesnt want anybody to powerful and doesnt do anything to predictable. He lets his forsaken battle it out between themselves after all. I think SH is the most powerful fade ever, and has abilities and tricks the others dont, but not that he is this unbeatable-except-by-Rand-who-apparently-has-to-kill-everyone type of creature. That said I think Lan. Lan has fought and easily defeated Fades before. I think Mat and Perrin who also could have their own battles to fight, and the Galad and Gawyn will be busy protecting their women. Rand has way to much to do already and Lan needs a moment. He is awesome but hasnt has his BadA thing yet.

 

Another option is Logain. I have always thought it would be between him and Taim but maybe his glory is being the one to kill SH.

[dmanmiller34]

I think its going to be Fain. I think it will happen something like this. Rand Goes down into the cave near the Bore where he encounters SH. THey get into a channeling fight and Rand knows he has to use the True power in order to defeat or even counter him but would rather die than do so or somthing of the sort. Just when he is about to bite the dust Fain pops out and saves him like he has other times. THe only thing is is that I do not think that they can defeat each other. They will fight to a stalemate.

 

Think of the wounds in rands side. One is from Shaidar Logath IE Fain and the other is from the Dark One IE Shaidar Haran. THe wounds in his side constantly fought each other but neither could win until they were sealed away from each other before they destroyed Rand. I think it will be an epic stalemate match. While its is happenening Rand sneaks away and goes further down into the bore where he will face Moridin. Thats how I would do it :)

[Gabriel Kross]

all the ToM info has spoiler warnings none of them are amol spoilers this is just conjecture on my part

 

First off from my understanding

slayer is dead trapped by perrin in a nightmare that he became convinced was real and was killed by it

 

 

also it is my belief that SH reports to Moridin being that SH gave Moghedien to Moridin and there really isnt much else as far as communication goes between them two

 

that being said my theory is Mat will be the one to kill SH, Lan is busy leading the malkieri last we saw, Perrin will most likely be leading his army and teaming up with the Seanchan which nobody has mentioned what-so-ever and Mat's army and take on dark friends and shadow spawn and Damandred's army, the Aiel will probablly just kill anything that moves that is associated with the DO, Logain's ashaman will face off against Taim's, and I believe Logain's glory will be to kill Damandred, I believe it was Narishma that pulled Callandor up from the Stone of Tear but whoever that was I expect them to kill Taim, I'm leaning towards Moiraine taking down Cindane(previously Lanfear), due to

moiraine's comment to thom at the end of ToM that with the angreal ring/bracelet(not sure what it was I loaned my copy of ToM out) she is emensely more powerful than she was before entering the doorway(theory is the angreal is second only to the choedan cal which was destroyed)

, it's pretty obvious nynaeve will kill moghedien, but that leaves me at a loss as to where the white tower will fight as well as to andor's place

 

 

back to the actual topic though the reason I think Mat will kill SH has to do with ToM

the loss of the one eye to free moiraine i'm betting will enhance his abilities to fight because by the end of ToM he is already starting to adjust to the loss of the eye.

 

[Beer Rot]

I've thought people were always too caught up over Perrin vs Slayer, its Fain I want Perrin to kill. The man tortured his family, I want Perrin to get his justice.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I've thought people were always too caught up over Perrin vs Slayer, its Fain I want Perrin to kill. The man tortured his family, I want Perrin to get his justice.

 

There are still many mysteries about WOT. Fain killing Perrin's family is just one of them.

 

I mean, why take out Perrin's family when he was trying to draw Rand back to Emonds Field and kill him, not Perrin? Granted, even that early, Fain was nuttier than a fruitcake, but clearly A does not lead to B in the case of killing Perrin's family in order to get Rand in your crosshairs. If he wanted Rand all he had to do was kill Tam. Even in his demented state Fain should have been lucid enough to know that.

[mbuehner]

all the ToM info has spoiler warnings none of them are amol spoilers this is just conjecture on my part

 

First off from my understanding

slayer is dead trapped by perrin in a nightmare that he became convinced was real and was killed by it

 

 

also it is my belief that SH reports to Moridin being that SH gave Moghedien to Moridin and there really isnt much else as far as communication goes between them two

 

that being said my theory is Mat will be the one to kill SH, Lan is busy leading the malkieri last we saw, Perrin will most likely be leading his army and teaming up with the Seanchan which nobody has mentioned what-so-ever and Mat's army and take on dark friends and shadow spawn and Damandred's army, the Aiel will probablly just kill anything that moves that is associated with the DO, Logain's ashaman will face off against Taim's, and I believe Logain's glory will be to kill Damandred, I believe it was Narishma that pulled Callandor up from the Stone of Tear but whoever that was I expect them to kill Taim, I'm leaning towards Moiraine taking down Cindane(previously Lanfear), due to

moiraine's comment to thom at the end of ToM that with the angreal ring/bracelet(not sure what it was I loaned my copy of ToM out) she is emensely more powerful than she was before entering the doorway(theory is the angreal is second only to the choedan cal which was destroyed)

, it's pretty obvious nynaeve will kill moghedien, but that leaves me at a loss as to where the white tower will fight as well as to andor's place

 

 

back to the actual topic though the reason I think Mat will kill SH has to do with ToM

the loss of the one eye to free moiraine i'm betting will enhance his abilities to fight because by the end of ToM he is already starting to adjust to the loss of the eye.

 

 

To address the info under your spoiler tags:

1.Slayer is alive at the end of ToM, Graendal chastises him for failure.

 

2.Moraine's angreal is strong, but it is not quite a sa'angreal (per Moraine's pov), and certainly not second to the most powerful sa'angreal ever made. She says she will be stronger than she was before, but does not say immensely stronger- part of this is because she is now inherently very, very weak. She couldn't even use a massive sa'angreal like the CK without being burned to a cinder as powerful saangreal require a base level of strength to use successfully. Egwene with Vora's sa'angreal at the attack on the WH was far, far more powerful than Moraine is with her acrobat bracelet (as Egwene is many times stronger than Moraine now is, and as Vora's sa'angreal is powerful even by sa'angreal standards- if not to be compared to the CK). I'm not sure where Moraine now ranks with the angreal but considering how very weak she is one would guess it would be in the Egwene/Elayne area code at best.

 

3. I'm not sure i follow how the loss of an eye would increase your fighting prowess.

[Bromo Sapien]

Ya, did Fain ever say he killed the Aybaras? I always assumed it was Slayer.

 

As to the original question, I think it's gonna be Fain. In another thread I was following someone mentioned how the earlier books worked very well as giant foreshadows for the entire series. Even before Fain went full-Mashadar, he took out a Fade with a bunch of Trollocs around too. If normal Fain could take out a normal Fade, super Fain can take out a super Fade. Plus, Mordeth is all about killing the Shadow in any way possible and who is more "Shadow" than the embodiment of the DO?

[FarShainMael]

Ya, did Fain ever say he killed the Aybaras? I always assumed it was Slayer.

 

It was Fain (while he was calling himself Ordeith):

 

The man who called himself Ordeith, even sometimes thought of himself as Ordeith, slunk through the tents of the Children of the Light, watching the white-cloaked men with a wary eye. Useful tools, ignorant tools, but not to be trusted. Especially not Bornhald; that one might have to be disposed of, if he became too troublesome. Byar would be much more easily handled. But not yet. There were other matters more important. Some of the soldiers nodded respectfully as he passed. He showed them his teeth in what they took for a friendly smile. Tools, and fools.

 

His eyes skittered hungrily across the tent holding the prisoners. They could wait. For a while yet. A little while longer. They were only tidbits anyway. Bait. He should have restrained himself at the Aybara farm, but Con Aybara had laughed in his face, and Joslyn had called him a filthy-minded little fool for naming her son Darkfriend. Well, they had learned, screaming, burning. In spite of himself he giggled under his breath. Tidbits.