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Zzzzzzzzzzzz! Elayne = BORING!


brujah
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I've been reading for a few hours, but I reached a point where he started talking about Elayne and her story.(I'm about half way thru book 11) Right now she's holed up in the Tower, and after 3 chapters about it, Im ready to die. 3 chapters down. Turn the page. ELAYNE. AGAIN. I had to get up and put it down for a bit. I dont know why, but Im finding her extremely boring right now. I do so hope it gets better. Wise Ones came and wisked Aveinda(spelling, and im not about to look it up) off. So its just Elayne, Brigitte, and a sea of boring characters.

 

Sorry, I had to vent. Its just that I was enthralled with the book until now.

 

I AM EXAGGERATING(I still love the book).

But someone please tell me that one of the following happens:

 

A)All of a sudden the story jumps over the much more interesting RAND, whom Ive not read about at ALL yet.

 

B)All of a sudden the story jumps over to Mat, whom I was really getting into.

 

or

 

[removed: not PG-13]

 

BACK TO THE BOOK.

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Aviendha taken by the Wise Ones, that is Chapter 15.

Chapters 16-17 are Elayne POVs. Only chapters after those containing her are shortly before book's end.

Chapters 18-21 & 27 contain Rand POVs.

Mat is on screen in chapters 25-27 then again towards end of book.

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You have a prego fetish!

 

If I had to choose ANY female from WoT, I'd choose Graendal. Although it would be SUCH a close choice, that it would JUST barely beat out Lanfear reincarnated as Cyndale.(A SUBSERVIENT Lanfear aka Cyndale! Meow!) But something about Graendal does it for me. I like my women with a LITTLE bit of meat on them. Voluptuous is the word I'm looking for, and Graendal is described as stunning, sexy, and a BIT fleshy.

Edited by Brujah
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I loved the books and have an enormous respect for Mr. Jordan (Brandon too), so writing what I'm about to write seems terrible even to me...

 

Elaynes' character had the least thought out plot lines, particularly lately. Her reckless and ill-conceived action to impersonate a Forsaken was the first example. Perhaps RJ (Honestly, I can't recall which book this scene appeared in. So maybe it was one of Brandon's; at any rate I assume it was part of an outline RJ left) expected this to be seen as an action a pregnant, hormone charged woman might take, but I doubt it. More likely he wanted reader's to simply think Elayne assumed that due to Min's viewing of her safe as a mother, she thought she could get away with it. Elayne comes off as an ignoramous; this is out of character for her, and I felt it (at the least) should have been given more complex reasoning for her to decide to take this action.

 

Secondly, her character should have been much more lenient on meeting with Perrin. How many times in the early books were we given evidence of her benevolent nature? How often did we read that Elayne understood that to rule is to provide services/protection. Given those characteristics, she should have been willing to almost completely concede the 2 Rivers region to Perrin, since it was obvious that Andor had failed the region in it's time of dire need. The whole affair left me thinking that she became hypocritical and greedy - and turned my opinion on her.

 

I do admit that these events may prove to move an unseen plot point to something coming in aMoL, but for now, I find this as a distasteful point that I have to take with all the rest of the good. Elayne had been my second favorite female character before these.

 

Did anyone else find these hard to swallow?

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I loved the books and have an enormous respect for Mr. Jordan (Brandon too), so writing what I'm about to write seems terrible even to me...

 

Elaynes' character had the least thought out plot lines, particularly lately. Her reckless and ill-conceived action to impersonate a Forsaken was the first example. Perhaps RJ (Honestly, I can't recall which book this scene appeared in. So maybe it was one of Brandon's; at any rate I assume it was part of an outline RJ left) expected this to be seen as an action a pregnant, hormone charged woman might take, but I doubt it. More likely he wanted reader's to simply think Elayne assumed that due to Min's viewing of her safe as a mother, she thought she could get away with it. Elayne comes off as an ignoramous; this is out of character for her, and I felt it (at the least) should have been given more complex reasoning for her to decide to take this action.

 

Secondly, her character should have been much more lenient on meeting with Perrin. How many times in the early books were we given evidence of her benevolent nature? How often did we read that Elayne understood that to rule is to provide services/protection. Given those characteristics, she should have been willing to almost completely concede the 2 Rivers region to Perrin, since it was obvious that Andor had failed the region in it's time of dire need. The whole affair left me thinking that she became hypocritical and greedy - and turned my opinion on her.

 

I do admit that these events may prove to move an unseen plot point to something coming in aMoL, but for now, I find this as a distasteful point that I have to take with all the rest of the good. Elayne had been my second favorite female character before these.

 

Did anyone else find these hard to swallow?

Absolutely not. In the first case, I do not believe that Elayne's actions in visiting the prisoner were in any way reckless. We are talking about a prisoner, in Elayne's dungeon, with armed guards just outside the door, who is shielded, by channelers who are just outside the door, who have been informed she is in there, she is disguised as a Chosen so Chesmal has no reason to attack her, Elayne is holding the Source, and can leave via Gateway as soon as there is trouble. How many precautions do you want her to take? Chesmal has no reason to attack, and even if she wanted to she could only do so via mundane means, against a channeler, who can get back up in the room in seconds merely by crying for help. Look at what actually went wrong - during the very brief time she was in there, a rescue attempt was made by Darkfriends and BA. Now, how likely is it that during that very brief window, she will be attacked by BA who see through her ruse as a Chosen?

 

As for the TR, there was fault on both sides. The TR has benefited from being part of Andor despite not having to pay taxes - the best of both worlds, you might say. When the TR was attacked by Trollocs Andor didn't respond, but then that doesn't excuse Perrin effectively stealing a part of her country and, thanks to the flag of Manetheren, laying claim to swathes more. Andor should have sent soldiers. They were unable to. Rewarding Perrin for what he has done to save the TR but not punishing him for his crimes is more than enough.

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I don't think Elayne or anyone from Caemlyn even knew the TR was in trouble. No word could get out thanks to Fain and his Whitecloaks.

 

That was quite a rant Brujah but you're definately not the first. I don't mind Elayne, she's even a bit funny when she chucks a tanty sometimes, but I agree, it can be boring just reading about Daes Damar instead of gripping action scenes which are still to come. Books 10 and 11 just have so many sub plots to tie up, which I think some may even be left on the wayside but I hope not. I wouldn't mind seeing Valan Luca again for instance, there was something fishy about him.

 

Sorry I don't mean to threadjack, if anyone's interested in Luca start a new thread and I'll join in.

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I loved the books and have an enormous respect for Mr. Jordan (Brandon too), so writing what I'm about to write seems terrible even to me...

 

Elaynes' character had the least thought out plot lines, particularly lately. Her reckless and ill-conceived action to impersonate a Forsaken was the first example. Perhaps RJ (Honestly, I can't recall which book this scene appeared in. So maybe it was one of Brandon's; at any rate I assume it was part of an outline RJ left) expected this to be seen as an action a pregnant, hormone charged woman might take, but I doubt it. More likely he wanted reader's to simply think Elayne assumed that due to Min's viewing of her safe as a mother, she thought she could get away with it. Elayne comes off as an ignoramous; this is out of character for her, and I felt it (at the least) should have been given more complex reasoning for her to decide to take this action.

 

Secondly, her character should have been much more lenient on meeting with Perrin. How many times in the early books were we given evidence of her benevolent nature? How often did we read that Elayne understood that to rule is to provide services/protection. Given those characteristics, she should have been willing to almost completely concede the 2 Rivers region to Perrin, since it was obvious that Andor had failed the region in it's time of dire need. The whole affair left me thinking that she became hypocritical and greedy - and turned my opinion on her.

 

I do admit that these events may prove to move an unseen plot point to something coming in aMoL, but for now, I find this as a distasteful point that I have to take with all the rest of the good. Elayne had been my second favorite female character before these.

 

Did anyone else find these hard to swallow?

I am a bit puzzled by your first point. How can interrogating prisoners who were shielded and with the guards (including channellers from the Kin) right outside be considered reckless and out of character for someone who has so often before been willing to risk her life in much more dangerous situations? Staying in Falme for weeks to get Egwene out of captivity, hunting the BA when it was 3 against 13, the raid of the Panarch Palace, the unweaving of the Gateway in TPOD...all far more dangerous acts.

 

As for the second point... " she should have been willing to almost completely concede the 2 Rivers region to Perrin" - isn't that what happened? No taxes to the Lion Throne and almost complete autonomy for the region. Plus what Mr Ares said.

 

I may be in the minority, but for me Elayne's plot in books 9-11 is one of the more interesting. Sure it's slow and bloated, but so is everything else in those books with few exceptions, and I find it way more interesting than the PLOD and more than even most of Mat's, which is little less than Mat travelling extremely slowly with the circus and grumbling about the women around him.

Edited by David Selig
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Guest PiotrekS

I'm also in the minority here, but Elayne is one of my fauvorite characters in WOT and I have no problem with her arc. You might like her or not, but she is written to be a prettily believable and human character. I can actually imagine her as a real person when I'm reading, which does not always happen with some other main female characters...

 

She makes some recless moves - not as many and not as reckless as often claimed on Dragonmount though -but she's what? Eighteen years old? It is perfectly normal and makes sense, even though it may be irritating to read. Some other teenagers in positions of great responsibility, never erring, never making mistakes - that's what bugs me much more.

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I loved the books and have an enormous respect for Mr. Jordan (Brandon too), so writing what I'm about to write seems terrible even to me...

 

Elaynes' character had the least thought out plot lines, particularly lately. Her reckless and ill-conceived action to impersonate a Forsaken was the first example. Perhaps RJ (Honestly, I can't recall which book this scene appeared in. So maybe it was one of Brandon's; at any rate I assume it was part of an outline RJ left) expected this to be seen as an action a pregnant, hormone charged woman might take, but I doubt it. More likely he wanted reader's to simply think Elayne assumed that due to Min's viewing of her safe as a mother, she thought she could get away with it. Elayne comes off as an ignoramous; this is out of character for her, and I felt it (at the least) should have been given more complex reasoning for her to decide to take this action.

 

Secondly, her character should have been much more lenient on meeting with Perrin. How many times in the early books were we given evidence of her benevolent nature? How often did we read that Elayne understood that to rule is to provide services/protection. Given those characteristics, she should have been willing to almost completely concede the 2 Rivers region to Perrin, since it was obvious that Andor had failed the region in it's time of dire need. The whole affair left me thinking that she became hypocritical and greedy - and turned my opinion on her.

 

I do admit that these events may prove to move an unseen plot point to something coming in aMoL, but for now, I find this as a distasteful point that I have to take with all the rest of the good. Elayne had been my second favorite female character before these.

 

Did anyone else find these hard to swallow?

Absolutely not. In the first case, I do not believe that Elayne's actions in visiting the prisoner were in any way reckless. We are talking about a prisoner, in Elayne's dungeon, with armed guards just outside the door, who is shielded, by channelers who are just outside the door, who have been informed she is in there, she is disguised as a Chosen so Chesmal has no reason to attack her, Elayne is holding the Source, and can leave via Gateway as soon as there is trouble. How many precautions do you want her to take? Chesmal has no reason to attack, and even if she wanted to she could only do so via mundane means, against a channeler, who can get back up in the room in seconds merely by crying for help. Look at what actually went wrong - during the very brief time she was in there, a rescue attempt was made by Darkfriends and BA. Now, how likely is it that during that very brief window, she will be attacked by BA who see through her ruse as a Chosen?

 

As for the TR, there was fault on both sides. The TR has benefited from being part of Andor despite not having to pay taxes - the best of both worlds, you might say. When the TR was attacked by Trollocs Andor didn't respond, but then that doesn't excuse Perrin effectively stealing a part of her country and, thanks to the flag of Manetheren, laying claim to swathes more. Andor should have sent soldiers. They were unable to. Rewarding Perrin for what he has done to save the TR but not punishing him for his crimes is more than enough.

 

Seriously? She puts herself in a bad situation...again and you say it's not reckless? Gimme a fucking break. Her attitude is all based on her being told by Min that her babies would be fine, but as a VIP in Andor, she has no right to put herself in that place where something that is not likely to happen could happen.

 

I would say that it's very likely that the BA would try to rescue her, given their current track record. Only an a fool would put themselves in a situation like that when another would have been able to handle the plan in the same way. Elayne is reckless and egotistical and doesn't think her plans through like she was trained to do by her mother. She ignores council that she should listen to and she makes hasty decisions that don't make good sense for a ruler of a powerful country to be involved in. There's a reason Obama didn't go in to kill Bin Laden and there's a reason Elayne shouldn't have been involved in any close way with the questioning. Rulers don't belong in that situation. Your line is bullshit.

 

As far as Perrin goes, she "rules" the Two Rivers, but those people don't even pay taxes to Andor anymore, so by that, Perrin should have squatters rights to the territory. I don't know how you can even reason out in your head that TR has benefited from being part of Andor. The people of the TR certainly don't feel like they owe any allegiance to her or Andor.

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Seriously? She puts herself in a bad situation...again and you say it's not reckless? Gimme a fucking break. Her attitude is all based on her being told by Min that her babies would be fine, but as a VIP in Andor, she has no right to put herself in that place where something that is not likely to happen could happen.

Something bad could happen anywhere. In fact, an assassination or kidnapping attempt in her own bedroom is much more likely than a jailbreak attempt at exactly the same time when she went to interrogate Chesmal.

 

There's a reason Obama didn't go in to kill Bin Laden and there's a reason Elayne shouldn't have been involved in any close way with the questioning. Rulers don't belong in that situation. Your line is bullshit.

Osama had a million soldiers better prepared for this kind of thing, Elayne had nobody who could impersonate a Forsaken. Your comparison is BS.

 

I don't know how you can even reason out in your head that TR has benefited from being part of Andor.

They've had like 200 years of peace before the Trollocs came. Don't you think being nominally a part of Andor and all of their passable roads passing through Andor controlled territory helped with that? Note that both the Whitecloacks and Verin were sure Morgase would send troops if she knew there were Trollocs and Children of the Light in Two Rivers.

Edited by David Selig
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Seriously? She puts herself in a bad situation...again and you say it's not reckless? Gimme a fucking break. Her attitude is all based on her being told by Min that her babies would be fine, but as a VIP in Andor, she has no right to put herself in that place where something that is not likely to happen could happen.

 

Yes seriously, the odds of that happening are astronomically low. She is more likely to be thrown from a horse riding across the city than to be caught up in a BA rescue.

 

As far as Perrin goes, she "rules" the Two Rivers, but those people don't even pay taxes to Andor anymore, so by that, Perrin should have squatters rights to the territory. I don't know how you can even reason out in your head that TR has benefited from being part of Andor. The people of the TR certainly don't feel like they owe any allegiance to her or Andor.

 

The TR's hasn't benefited from the stability that Andor as a nation offers? They have been allowed to live in peace and prosperity for hundreds of years.

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Osama had a million soldiers better prepared for this kind of thing, Elayne had nobody who could impersonate a Forsaken. Your comparison is BS

 

Yes, I had forgotten how weak in the power Elayne was. It would be truly impossible for her to put a mask on anyone. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

Yes seriously, the odds of that happening are astronomically low. She is more likely to be thrown from a horse riding across the city than to be caught up in a BA rescue.

 

The BA rescue doesn't have anything to do with it. If she hadn't been so reckless she wouldn't (and shouldn't) have put herself in that position in the first place. She has no need to be questioning darkfriends. If she was your boss at work and micromanaged everything you did, you'd feel differently.

 

She lives in a dream of safety. Her babies will be fine, therefore she will be fine. It doesn't work that way and she's the only one that seems to believe that it does.

 

 

The TR's hasn't benefited from the stability that Andor as a nation offers? They have been allowed to live in peace and prosperity for hundreds of years

 

The American colonies haven't benefited from the stability that England as an empire offered? The US never would have made it without them allowing us to live prosperity, with half the world as a domestic market, for hundreds of years. Thank god for England.

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Yes, I had forgotten how weak in the power Elayne was. It would be truly impossible for her to put a mask on anyone. Thanks for clearing that up.

The point is nobody else in Caemlyn is way below Forsaken level strength in the One Power even with angreal so it would be much harder to fool Chesmal. And from Moghedien Elayne knew much more about the Forsaken than anyone in Caemlyn except Birgitte. Birgitte is not a channeller, so that wasn't really an option.

 

. She has no need to be questioning darkfriends. If she was your boss at work and micromanaged everything you did, you'd feel differently.

Yeah, that's the same, I am sure Andor had at least 5 persons working for the Queen as Forsaken impersonators and were really disappointed they were ignored in this case. ;)

Edited by David Selig
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I loved the books and have an enormous respect for Mr. Jordan (Brandon too), so writing what I'm about to write seems terrible even to me...

 

Elaynes' character had the least thought out plot lines, particularly lately. Her reckless and ill-conceived action to impersonate a Forsaken was the first example. Perhaps RJ (Honestly, I can't recall which book this scene appeared in. So maybe it was one of Brandon's; at any rate I assume it was part of an outline RJ left) expected this to be seen as an action a pregnant, hormone charged woman might take, but I doubt it. More likely he wanted reader's to simply think Elayne assumed that due to Min's viewing of her safe as a mother, she thought she could get away with it. Elayne comes off as an ignoramous; this is out of character for her, and I felt it (at the least) should have been given more complex reasoning for her to decide to take this action.

 

Secondly, her character should have been much more lenient on meeting with Perrin. How many times in the early books were we given evidence of her benevolent nature? How often did we read that Elayne understood that to rule is to provide services/protection. Given those characteristics, she should have been willing to almost completely concede the 2 Rivers region to Perrin, since it was obvious that Andor had failed the region in it's time of dire need. The whole affair left me thinking that she became hypocritical and greedy - and turned my opinion on her.

 

I do admit that these events may prove to move an unseen plot point to something coming in aMoL, but for now, I find this as a distasteful point that I have to take with all the rest of the good. Elayne had been my second favorite female character before these.

 

Did anyone else find these hard to swallow?

Absolutely not. In the first case, I do not believe that Elayne's actions in visiting the prisoner were in any way reckless. We are talking about a prisoner, in Elayne's dungeon, with armed guards just outside the door, who is shielded, by channelers who are just outside the door, who have been informed she is in there, she is disguised as a Chosen so Chesmal has no reason to attack her, Elayne is holding the Source, and can leave via Gateway as soon as there is trouble. How many precautions do you want her to take? Chesmal has no reason to attack, and even if she wanted to she could only do so via mundane means, against a channeler, who can get back up in the room in seconds merely by crying for help. Look at what actually went wrong - during the very brief time she was in there, a rescue attempt was made by Darkfriends and BA. Now, how likely is it that during that very brief window, she will be attacked by BA who see through her ruse as a Chosen?

 

As for the TR, there was fault on both sides. The TR has benefited from being part of Andor despite not having to pay taxes - the best of both worlds, you might say. When the TR was attacked by Trollocs Andor didn't respond, but then that doesn't excuse Perrin effectively stealing a part of her country and, thanks to the flag of Manetheren, laying claim to swathes more. Andor should have sent soldiers. They were unable to. Rewarding Perrin for what he has done to save the TR but not punishing him for his crimes is more than enough.

 

Seriously? She puts herself in a bad situation...again and you say it's not reckless? Gimme a fucking break. Her attitude is all based on her being told by Min that her babies would be fine, but as a VIP in Andor, she has no right to put herself in that place where something that is not likely to happen could happen.

 

I would say that it's very likely that the BA would try to rescue her, given their current track record. Only an a fool would put themselves in a situation like that when another would have been able to handle the plan in the same way. Elayne is reckless and egotistical and doesn't think her plans through like she was trained to do by her mother. She ignores council that she should listen to and she makes hasty decisions that don't make good sense for a ruler of a powerful country to be involved in. There's a reason Obama didn't go in to kill Bin Laden and there's a reason Elayne shouldn't have been involved in any close way with the questioning. Rulers don't belong in that situation. Your line is bullshit.

Who would have been a better person to do it? Better able to impersonate a Chosen? And given the likelihood of a jailbreak at that precise time was incredibly low, there was no serious risk. If someone took no serious risks, reckless would not be the term I would use to describe them.

 

As far as Perrin goes, she "rules" the Two Rivers, but those people don't even pay taxes to Andor anymore, so by that, Perrin should have squatters rights to the territory. I don't know how you can even reason out in your head that TR has benefited from being part of Andor. The people of the TR certainly don't feel like they owe any allegiance to her or Andor.
I didn't realise you coudl get your own country through squatters' rights. As for the benefits of being in Andor, aside from what has already been mentioned there is also the matter of customs duties - goods going between the TR and the rest of Andor are not crossing Andor's borders. Thus the TR has benefited from free trade with Andor, something that would not be the case were they a separate country. They have benefited but had no disbenefits. The idea that Elayne should give Perrin whatever he wants just because Andor was unable to send aid during the TR time of need is a little unreasonable.

 

 

Yes seriously, the odds of that happening are astronomically low. She is more likely to be thrown from a horse riding across the city than to be caught up in a BA rescue.

 

The BA rescue doesn't have anything to do with it. If she hadn't been so reckless she wouldn't (and shouldn't) have put herself in that position in the first place. She has no need to be questioning darkfriends. If she was your boss at work and micromanaged everything you did, you'd feel differently.

If she was my boss at work and micromanaged everything, I might be annoyed but I doubt I would be accusing her of recklessness. That doesn't really follow.
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If she was my boss at work and micromanaged everything, I might be annoyed but I doubt I would be accusing her of recklessness. That doesn't really follow.

 

If you worked for a company that deals with the stock exchange market, and your boss invests all your money in some dubious firms, but tells you not to worry because a fortune teller told him he'll still be rich in nine months, I think you'll worry a little.

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If she was my boss at work and micromanaged everything, I might be annoyed but I doubt I would be accusing her of recklessness. That doesn't really follow.

 

If you worked for a company that deals with the stock exchange market, and your boss invests all your money in some dubious firms, but tells you not to worry because a fortune teller told him he'll still be rich in nine months, I think you'll worry a little.

 

That's a stupid thing to do. Elayne wouldn't do that - she's got a good grasp of economy and politics. She might be reckless for adventure, but she isn't stupid.

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