Egwene hate thread

[Entreri]

I suspect that once Gawyn taps that rear end, and some DP action, Egwene should mellow out.

[EpitomyofShyness]

I suspect that once Gawyn taps that rear end, and some DP action, Egwene should mellow out.

 

Oh my god! The answer is nigh! Egwene just needs someone to erm... mellow her. Heh.

 

Venting is awesome.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I think that "Egwene controversy" on the forums is caused to some extent by the lack of any balancing out of her "awesomness" in the books. Every other character has some major drawbacks, gets criticized or is shown in a way which prompts the reader to question them (e.g. when Rand destroys Natrim's Barrow - wow, he's powerful and smart, but OMG what is he doing?!It's evil!)

 

In Egwene's case, I get the impression her story is told specifically in order to create a particular "image" of Egwene in the eyes of the reader - great Amyrlin. We're not shown her "as she is" (in an imagined world of WOT, I'm aware of that), with some good actions and some bad actions and we - the readers - are not allowed by the author to make up our own minds about Egwene. Her arc reads as though it was written by the White Tower's PR department.

 

I think all these discussions come from the unbalanced way she is portrayed in the books - if somebody does not "buy" her pure and unlimited awesomness, then the only place to express this frustration is the forum, because in the books you can find just another praise of Egwene...and another...and another.

 

It changed a little in ToM though, and, what's interesting, a few Egwene's fans have criticized ToM because in their eyes the portrayal of her character has strayed from the shining path from TGS. In my eyes, it was a relief and possibly the best Brandon has done to this character, making her a little more believable.

 

Another thing is inconsistency in Egwene's narration throughout the series. In the first few books, she is one of important characters (on par with Nynaeve, Elayne, Moiraine) while the Dragon is clearly the central piece of the story. Further on, Egwene get elevated to a more important place, culminating in TGS where the whole strory shows her and Rand as two equally important elements. Even now the "confrontation between Rand and Egwene" in the AMoL is discussed more than Rand's confrontation with the DO! It seems as though RJ realised halfway through that Egwene should have more important role to play and suddenly "boosted" her up to her current level - but her previous history does not justify it! There is no "in-story" reason to believe Egwene is as essential to the Last Battle as the Dragon - but the story has been written for some time as though she is!The best example are parallel plotlines of Rand fighting against his inner darkness and Egwene regaining the Tower in TGS.

 

Just my two cents. To conclude, there are lots of the characters in WOT I dislike more than Egwene, but only Egwene is the character where my feelings go "against the story" so to speak, which causes me to feel disconnected and lessens my enjoyment of the books a little (I still enjoy them very much).

 

Different characters feature more or less in different books. Rand doesn't even feature much in some books in the middle of the series. Egwene is written as one of those over achiever girls who works extremely hard, holds down two jobs, wins leadership awards all through high school and university, graduates as valedictorian, gets into a good school, then is hired into a good job. Maybe you dislike success, but they worked hard to get there. Nynaeve is the one who stubbornly refuses Aes Sedai teaching and gives up on herself too easily, maybe you find that endearing, I find it childish. In ToM, Egwene has done what Egwene would do given her childhood sweetheart who may be dangerously insane just told her he wanted to do something crazy and for no reason.

 

To conclude, a legendary Amyrlin isn't going to be a mundane person. And the White Tower PR department wouldn't write themselves to look like fools, they'd write it as if they went along with her every step, not that she made them look like fools, children, or cowards. So that also makes no sense.

 

Ok, so an outside PR firm hired by Egwene It is just an analogy (hoped to be funny btw )made to illustrate the point, defeating it does not mean defeating the point.

 

I wasn't going to get into another Egwene discussion after stating my point of view, but your post deserves to be answered, so here we go.

First, whether Rand "features" in a certain tome is not relevant. What I pointed at was his overall role in the story which is absolutely central even in the books he scarcely appears in. If he's gone, the story would make no sense. Egwene, on the other hand, while being an important element, was not central to the plot. She wasn't mentioned in the prophecies, the DO didn't care about her too much.

 

Later, this clear composition of the overall story got distorted - in TGS, we get the feeling that somehow Egwene's power over the White Tower is equally cricial as Rand "light v. dark" fight, which makes no sense from the point of view of previous books. That was my point, it had nothing to do with "page time" for various characters.

 

Second, I have no problem with success. Neither mine, nor other people's and what's more, irrespective of their gender. But true success is built on hard work and requires a lot of growth, while in Egwene's case we get only achievements without any foundations. The only case where we see Egwene work hard for some significant time is her Dreaming training with the Wise Ones - and you might notice I've never said a bad word about Egwene's Dreaming achievements.

Her other successes, mainly in channeling and politics, are obviously "deus ex machina-like" and rightly remind many readers of Mary Sue.

 

How can you explain her stunning channeling technique in TGS, while her channeling training was cut short, she'd never been shown as a talent larger than Elayne or Nynaeve before and she had absolutely no time to return to it after leaving Tar Valon? How do you explain her bottomless knowledge of White Tower history and law while she had only a short, makeshift training with Siuan in these matters? Yet somehow she was able to totally dominate sisters who'd supposedly studied these matters for years.

 

The answer is simple - the perfect Amyrlin must be a perfect channeler, so RJ made Egwene a perfect channeler in TGS. The perfect Amyrlin should know White Tower law and history better than anyone, so Egwene does - even though it makes no sense from the perspective of earlier books! She is a perfect Amyrlin, who has little in common with Egwene the hard working girl - but that's too bad, I guess.

 

If you're able to show me an example of vast historical and legal studies Egwene has undertaken to outwit all sisters she discussed with (evening talks with Siuan are not enough -we're talking about years of deep study these sisters had)...Or if you're able to point me to the pages where Egwene acquired this vast experience in dealing with warders that allowed her to give sage advice about this to the sister who had had a warder probably for decades - I'll recant all my critique of Egwene as a literary character.

 

Oh yes - and this "genius" ploy of hers and Siuan's to give her more power by making the Hall to declare war against Elaida. Why hasn't the Hall take another resolution in next five minutes to declare peace with Elaida? Answer is again simple - plot convenience.

 

The "legandary Amyrlin" at last - maybe you don't realise it, but you actually support my point. You don't become "legendary" in the first year in office, when most important work is yet to be done. You are just as impatient in giving to Egwene this "legendary status" as RJ was. Compare it to Moirane, who was also called "legendary" - first we're told her story, shown how awesome she was, then after some time the word "legend" appears. In Egwene's case, we have "legendary Amyrlin" in her description:" Short girl, dark hair, legendary Amyrlin". It makes no sense to read about her further on - what will she do? Obviously, the best that can be done! She's the legendary Amyrlin after all...

 

I don't understand how can you say that Nynaeve "gives up on herself too easily". It just boggles my mind, since you're obviously fond of Egwene who "gives up on herself" all the time and without five seconds of thought. Taking into account the general lack of knowledge about Aes Sedai in Two Rivers, Ntnaeve obviously had reasons to be reluctant to throw herself into this organization (and we later see-it was to be dominated by the Black Ajah and Mesaana). You don't seem to realise how lucky they all have been it was Moiranie who found them - it could be Elaida or a Black Ajah sister. If a Black Ajah sister showed her some One Power and career prospect, Egwene would have followed happily, like a moth after some pretty light (caveat - I don't claim she would follow the DO, just that she followed the Aes Sedai without any reservations or reflection, very naively and had a lot of luck in the end).

 

3. Are you referring to the bind them with ribbon quote that Egwene haters use as proof of something it doesn't mean? You realize that countries have international treaties which bind them together, cause both countries to sacrifice 'sovereignty' but result it better situations for both places? That's what she means. Hence ribbon, something nice, not chains or iron fists which represent enslavement and military might.

 

You realise the countries you mention as an example willingly and consiously give up this sovereignity? In this case, she contemplates manipulating them into this by showing them only some of the planned consequences of this alliance. They have unequivocally said they did not want to give up their "sovereignity" to the White Tower. So Egwene thinks:" You don't want it, well, too bad. I'll make you do it anyway, but you won'y realise it". She is at the least disloyal and condescending.

[David Selig]

Different characters feature more or less in different books. Rand doesn't even feature much in some books in the middle of the series. Egwene is written as one of those over achiever girls who works extremely hard, holds down two jobs, wins leadership awards all through high school and university, graduates as valedictorian, gets into a good school, then is hired into a good job. Maybe you dislike success, but they worked hard to get there.

Except that unlike people in real life who achieve success through hard work and maybe a few lucky breaks, Egwene's success is almost entirely built on luck and/or blatant plot devices. The amount of success she's had is way disproportionate to the effort she put in. She was chosen for Amyrlin and then unified the Tower less than 2 years after she had become a novice even though it's practically unheard of to even get to be Accepted in such a short time. She hasn't paid her dues.

 

She wasn't chosen for Amyrlin because she was a hard worker - it was because of her connection to Rand, her youth and her strength in the Power. The Hall couldn't care less if she was a hard worker or not. Then because she happened to listen to some of Moiraine's lectures to Rand about politics, even though by her own admittance she found them ridiculous at the time, she turned out into a political mastermind who time after time time outsmarted Sitters with literally centuries of experience in politics. And of course, she had the luck of having an opponent who was a complete idiot and borderline crazy in Elaida, so even when Egwene committed a huge blunder when she got herself captured and it should've been the end of her political career and possibly her life, it ended up well for her.

 

Is Egwene a hard worker? Definitely, and that's worthy of respect. But this had little to do with how she achieved her successes. That's unfortunately a common theme in the series, but that's a different topic altogether.

[WilsonC]

 

The one incident that disappointed me the most about Egwene was her shaming of Siuan after the Seanchan attack. It's a big step backward in leadership from the learning progress she had made in Salidar and as a captive of Elaida. She views it as a choice to place leadership duty over friendship, which I respect and agree with for someone in her position. However, I disagree with her judgment; it's bad leadership, and more an instance of putting pride over both duty and friendship.

 

This is a hate thread. While I wouldn't usually nit pick like this, there are a few around here who would take this to legitimize their irrational hate. And while your reason to be disappointed at that particular moment is quite justified given your obvious perspective of the event. Maybe clarify your actual level of hate? I doubt you hate based on 1 thing "disappointing" you.

 

I don't hate her. As a person, I do find her annoying at times, but not a bad human being. As a leader, she has a lot of potential; she's intelligent, strong-willed, and has a commanding presence. She'll need a dose of humility to achieve that potential, however.

 

Her greatest weakness is her pride. Hers is the type where her need to be right sometimes overwhelms her judgment. This pride is at the core of many of the issues people have with her. It's a trait shared by many Aes Sedai. It's the core trait that, twisted to extremes, turned Elaida into a tyrant.

 

Throughout her journey to becoming Amyrlin, I gained a lot of respect for her. She seemed to mature a lot, and placed in a situation where she had to make the transition from book-smarts to applied intelligence, she thrived. She also entered the position with a more open mind than most Aes Sedai, and I largely agree with the changes she's made to the Tower's policies.

 

Her ordeal in Elaida's captivity seemed to broaden her perspective and temper her pride. She started opening her mind to other points of view in a way she hadn't done before, coming to better understand the perspectives of those who had until recently been considered her enemies. Her underlying confidence and determination remain, but her excessive pride seemed to be diminishing.

 

What bothered me about her reaction to Siuan's rescue is that it was a relapse in that leadership maturity she'd gained. It shows a need to control, rather than the directing she did up to that point. In and of itself, it's not a big issue, but it really reflects a disturbing trend that's come into play since her uniting of the Tower; the readiness of using shame like a whip and to treat those most loyal to her overly harshly, using control as a means of leadership. I think she'll adapt, but I don't think she'll enjoy the dose of humility that helps her become the Amyrlin she needs to be.

[Kahsm]

I think that "Egwene controversy" on the forums is caused to some extent by the lack of any balancing out of her "awesomness" in the books. Every other character has some major drawbacks, gets criticized or is shown in a way which prompts the reader to question them (e.g. when Rand destroys Natrim's Barrow - wow, he's powerful and smart, but OMG what is he doing?!It's evil!)

 

In Egwene's case, I get the impression her story is told specifically in order to create a particular "image" of Egwene in the eyes of the reader - great Amyrlin. We're not shown her "as she is" (in an imagined world of WOT, I'm aware of that), with some good actions and some bad actions and we - the readers - are not allowed by the author to make up our own minds about Egwene. Her arc reads as though it was written by the White Tower's PR department.

 

I think all these discussions come from the unbalanced way she is portrayed in the books - if somebody does not "buy" her pure and unlimited awesomness, then the only place to express this frustration is the forum, because in the books you can find just another praise of Egwene...and another...and another.

 

It changed a little in ToM though, and, what's interesting, a few Egwene's fans have criticized ToM because in their eyes the portrayal of her character has strayed from the shining path from TGS. In my eyes, it was a relief and possibly the best Brandon has done to this character, making her a little more believable.

 

Another thing is inconsistency in Egwene's narration throughout the series. In the first few books, she is one of important characters (on par with Nynaeve, Elayne, Moiraine) while the Dragon is clearly the central piece of the story. Further on, Egwene get elevated to a more important place, culminating in TGS where the whole strory shows her and Rand as two equally important elements. Even now the "confrontation between Rand and Egwene" in the AMoL is discussed more than Rand's confrontation with the DO! It seems as though RJ realised halfway through that Egwene should have more important role to play and suddenly "boosted" her up to her current level - but her previous history does not justify it! There is no "in-story" reason to believe Egwene is as essential to the Last Battle as the Dragon - but the story has been written for some time as though she is!The best example are parallel plotlines of Rand fighting against his inner darkness and Egwene regaining the Tower in TGS.

 

Just my two cents. To conclude, there are lots of the characters in WOT I dislike more than Egwene, but only Egwene is the character where my feelings go "against the story" so to speak, which causes me to feel disconnected and lessens my enjoyment of the books a little (I still enjoy them very much).

 

Different characters feature more or less in different books. Rand doesn't even feature much in some books in the middle of the series. Egwene is written as one of those over achiever girls who works extremely hard, holds down two jobs, wins leadership awards all through high school and university, graduates as valedictorian, gets into a good school, then is hired into a good job. Maybe you dislike success, but they worked hard to get there. Nynaeve is the one who stubbornly refuses Aes Sedai teaching and gives up on herself too easily, maybe you find that endearing, I find it childish. In ToM, Egwene has done what Egwene would do given her childhood sweetheart who may be dangerously insane just told her he wanted to do something crazy and for no reason.

 

To conclude, a legendary Amyrlin isn't going to be a mundane person. And the White Tower PR department wouldn't write themselves to look like fools, they'd write it as if they went along with her every step, not that she made them look like fools, children, or cowards. So that also makes no sense.

 

Ok, so an outside PR firm hired by Egwene It is just an analogy (hoped to be funny btw )made to illustrate the point, defeating it does not mean defeating the point.

 

I wasn't going to get into another Egwene discussion after stating my point of view, but your post deserves to be answered, so here we go.

First, whether Rand "features" in a certain tome is not relevant. What I pointed at was his overall role in the story which is absolutely central even in the books he scarcely appears in. If he's gone, the story would make no sense. Egwene, on the other hand, while being an important element, was not central to the plot. She wasn't mentioned in the prophecies, the DO didn't care about her too much.

 

Later, this clear composition of the overall story got distorted - in TGS, we get the feeling that somehow Egwene's power over the White Tower is equally cricial as Rand "light v. dark" fight, which makes no sense from the point of view of previous books. That was my point, it had nothing to do with "page time" for various characters.

 

Second, I have no problem with success. Neither mine, nor other people's and what's more, irrespective of their gender. But true success is built on hard work and requires a lot of growth, while in Egwene's case we get only achievements without any foundations. The only case where we see Egwene work hard for some significant time is her Dreaming training with the Wise Ones - and you might notice I've never said a bad word about Egwene's Dreaming achievements.

Her other successes, mainly in channeling and politics, are obviously "deus ex machina-like" and rightly remind many readers of Mary Sue.

 

How can you explain her stunning channeling technique in TGS, while her channeling training was cut short, she'd never been shown as a talent larger than Elayne or Nynaeve before and she had absolutely no time to return to it after leaving Tar Valon? How do you explain her bottomless knowledge of White Tower history and law while she had only a short, makeshift training with Siuan in these matters? Yet somehow she was able to totally dominate sisters who'd supposedly studied these matters for years.

 

The answer is simple - the perfect Amyrlin must be a perfect channeler, so RJ made Egwene a perfect channeler in TGS. The perfect Amyrlin should know White Tower law and history better than anyone, so Egwene does - even though it makes no sense from the perspective of earlier books! She is a perfect Amyrlin, who has little in common with Egwene the hard working girl - but that's too bad, I guess.

 

If you're able to show me an example of vast historical and legal studies Egwene has undertaken to outwit all sisters she discussed with (evening talks with Siuan are not enough -we're talking about years of deep study these sisters had)...Or if you're able to point me to the pages where Egwene acquired this vast experience in dealing with warders that allowed her to give sage advice about this to the sister who had had a warder probably for decades - I'll recant all my critique of Egwene as a literary character.

 

Oh yes - and this "genius" ploy of hers and Siuan's to give her more power by making the Hall to declare war against Elaida. Why hasn't the Hall take another resolution in next five minutes to declare peace with Elaida? Answer is again simple - plot convenience.

 

The "legandary Amyrlin" at last - maybe you don't realise it, but you actually support my point. You don't become "legendary" in the first year in office, when most important work is yet to be done. You are just as impatient in giving to Egwene this "legendary status" as RJ was. Compare it to Moirane, who was also called "legendary" - first we're told her story, shown how awesome she was, then after some time the word "legend" appears. In Egwene's case, we have "legendary Amyrlin" in her description:" Short girl, dark hair, legendary Amyrlin". It makes no sense to read about her further on - what will she do? Obviously, the best that can be done! She's the legendary Amyrlin after all...

 

I don't understand how can you say that Nynaeve "gives up on herself too easily". It just boggles my mind, since you're obviously fond of Egwene who "gives up on herself" all the time and without five seconds of thought. Taking into account the general lack of knowledge about Aes Sedai in Two Rivers, Ntnaeve obviously had reasons to be reluctant to throw herself into this organization (and we later see-it was to be dominated by the Black Ajah and Mesaana). You don't seem to realise how lucky they all have been it was Moiranie who found them - it could be Elaida or a Black Ajah sister. If a Black Ajah sister showed her some One Power and career prospect, Egwene would have followed happily, like a moth after some pretty light (caveat - I don't claim she would follow the DO, just that she followed the Aes Sedai without any reservations or reflection, very naively and had a lot of luck in the end).

 

3. Are you referring to the bind them with ribbon quote that Egwene haters use as proof of something it doesn't mean? You realize that countries have international treaties which bind them together, cause both countries to sacrifice 'sovereignty' but result it better situations for both places? That's what she means. Hence ribbon, something nice, not chains or iron fists which represent enslavement and military might.

 

You realise the countries you mention as an example willingly and consiously give up this sovereignity? In this case, she contemplates manipulating them into this by showing them only some of the planned consequences of this alliance. They have unequivocally said they did not want to give up their "sovereignity" to the White Tower. So Egwene thinks:" You don't want it, well, too bad. I'll make you do it anyway, but you won'y realise it". She is at the least disloyal and condescending.

 

I'm away for the weekend and don't have the convince or resources to make a post as thorough as I might usually, but that's probably best for both of us ;)

 

I look at your issue with Egwene's prominence from another direction. I am mad that Taim is not in the books enough, despite his high-profile role, but my beef is with the authors or the story in general, it doesn't make me dislike the Character. So I don't quite get that rational for hating Egwene. Also, Moir said in TEotW that she was tied up in this, and Rand clearly knew (or knows since enlightenment at least) that she is important since he told her at the WT, "I see you've done your job". Thus suggesting the pattern required her to be there. I guess you can call anything the pattern requires of important people a 'convenient plot device', but WOT is jam packed with that stuff.

 

Furthermore, Egwene has always dove into her channeling practice, Nynaeve would always get frustrated and give up. But when Nynaeve can instantly copy weaves, that's awesome! But Egwene being good is ridiculous! Give me a break. Would that problem disappear if we just wrote in a new talent for her? Why can't you just see she learns quickly when she actually works at something, how is that so much harder to believe Nynaeve can just instantly copy everything without needing practice at all?

 

Yeah she 'lucked'/Pattern wove her into the Amyrlin seat, but the seat is not supreme ruler of Tar Valon or Aes Sedai, she needs voices to stand with her to do anything, and however stupid you may consider the Aes Sedai for falling for her tricks, it still means she had to work to not be puppeteered, and work further to hold the seat while not being puppeteered.

 

Finally about binding with ribbon. I think the WOs and the Seafolk would both be mad at you for suggesting Egwene should have to go easy on them politically because you think they don't understand the ramifications of what they're agreeing too. We only see Egwene's perspective, and just because she's happy about the deal doesn't mean the others aren't, or that they don't think they'll gain more influence as time goes on. I don't remember egwene suggesting compulsion was involved on her side.

[capuga]

Is this really intended to be a debate thread or just a place where those of us that don't like Egwene can come and vent? I'm not sure why those that like Egwene would even want to step into this thread.

[Durinax]

Yeah she 'lucked'/Pattern wove her into the Amyrlin seat, but the seat is not supreme ruler of Tar Valon or Aes Sedai, she needs voices to stand with her to do anything, and however stupid you may consider the Aes Sedai for falling for her tricks, it still means she had to work to not be puppeteered, and work further to hold the seat while not being puppeteered.

actually we saw how rediculous she was written with her power when she did the deal with teh hall

'the hall can take over the prosecution of war, managing General Brynes armies and the Tower Guard?"

....

"by reports, you've been dedicating yourself to wrangling kings and queens," ... "that seems a fine task for the Amyrlin."

...

then

what motion are we standing for

an important one

well I suppose ill stand for it then (Doesine)

As will I (yukiri)

 

two sitters never found out what an motion was before sitting for it! makes the system fundamentally ineffective. Which gives Egwene almost complete control over foreign affairs, including sending Advisors and such which gives her absolute power of the bulk of the AS (meaning she could send out trouble makers to mayene for example to take care of them)

[Lama Chemist Ho]

egwene is also indirectly responsible for tylin's murder, as her deciding to move her army from murandy (or wherever) to tar valon when she did is what caused suroth to suddenly return to ebou dar sooner than expected

[Sleeper]

Is this really intended to be a debate thread or just a place where those of us that don't like Egwene can come and vent? I'm not sure why those that like Egwene would even want to step into this thread.

They feel the need to defend her for some reason.

 

I honestly don't even understand why we're arguing about this any more. It's clear no side is going to change their mind on the issue, just agree to disagree and move the hell on. Haters gonna hate, lovers gonna love.

[DemandredFO]

Kael, I'd respond to you with facts but I'm pretty sure you'd just dismiss or ignore me.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I think that "Egwene controversy" on the forums is caused to some extent by the lack of any balancing out of her "awesomness" in the books. Every other character has some major drawbacks, gets criticized or is shown in a way which prompts the reader to question them (e.g. when Rand destroys Natrim's Barrow - wow, he's powerful and smart, but OMG what is he doing?!It's evil!)

 

In Egwene's case, I get the impression her story is told specifically in order to create a particular "image" of Egwene in the eyes of the reader - great Amyrlin. We're not shown her "as she is" (in an imagined world of WOT, I'm aware of that), with some good actions and some bad actions and we - the readers - are not allowed by the author to make up our own minds about Egwene. Her arc reads as though it was written by the White Tower's PR department.

 

I think all these discussions come from the unbalanced way she is portrayed in the books - if somebody does not "buy" her pure and unlimited awesomness, then the only place to express this frustration is the forum, because in the books you can find just another praise of Egwene...and another...and another.

 

It changed a little in ToM though, and, what's interesting, a few Egwene's fans have criticized ToM because in their eyes the portrayal of her character has strayed from the shining path from TGS. In my eyes, it was a relief and possibly the best Brandon has done to this character, making her a little more believable.

 

Another thing is inconsistency in Egwene's narration throughout the series. In the first few books, she is one of important characters (on par with Nynaeve, Elayne, Moiraine) while the Dragon is clearly the central piece of the story. Further on, Egwene get elevated to a more important place, culminating in TGS where the whole strory shows her and Rand as two equally important elements. Even now the "confrontation between Rand and Egwene" in the AMoL is discussed more than Rand's confrontation with the DO! It seems as though RJ realised halfway through that Egwene should have more important role to play and suddenly "boosted" her up to her current level - but her previous history does not justify it! There is no "in-story" reason to believe Egwene is as essential to the Last Battle as the Dragon - but the story has been written for some time as though she is!The best example are parallel plotlines of Rand fighting against his inner darkness and Egwene regaining the Tower in TGS.

 

Just my two cents. To conclude, there are lots of the characters in WOT I dislike more than Egwene, but only Egwene is the character where my feelings go "against the story" so to speak, which causes me to feel disconnected and lessens my enjoyment of the books a little (I still enjoy them very much).

 

Different characters feature more or less in different books. Rand doesn't even feature much in some books in the middle of the series. Egwene is written as one of those over achiever girls who works extremely hard, holds down two jobs, wins leadership awards all through high school and university, graduates as valedictorian, gets into a good school, then is hired into a good job. Maybe you dislike success, but they worked hard to get there. Nynaeve is the one who stubbornly refuses Aes Sedai teaching and gives up on herself too easily, maybe you find that endearing, I find it childish. In ToM, Egwene has done what Egwene would do given her childhood sweetheart who may be dangerously insane just told her he wanted to do something crazy and for no reason.

 

To conclude, a legendary Amyrlin isn't going to be a mundane person. And the White Tower PR department wouldn't write themselves to look like fools, they'd write it as if they went along with her every step, not that she made them look like fools, children, or cowards. So that also makes no sense.

 

Ok, so an outside PR firm hired by Egwene It is just an analogy (hoped to be funny btw )made to illustrate the point, defeating it does not mean defeating the point.

 

I wasn't going to get into another Egwene discussion after stating my point of view, but your post deserves to be answered, so here we go.

First, whether Rand "features" in a certain tome is not relevant. What I pointed at was his overall role in the story which is absolutely central even in the books he scarcely appears in. If he's gone, the story would make no sense. Egwene, on the other hand, while being an important element, was not central to the plot. She wasn't mentioned in the prophecies, the DO didn't care about her too much.

 

Later, this clear composition of the overall story got distorted - in TGS, we get the feeling that somehow Egwene's power over the White Tower is equally cricial as Rand "light v. dark" fight, which makes no sense from the point of view of previous books. That was my point, it had nothing to do with "page time" for various characters.

 

Second, I have no problem with success. Neither mine, nor other people's and what's more, irrespective of their gender. But true success is built on hard work and requires a lot of growth, while in Egwene's case we get only achievements without any foundations. The only case where we see Egwene work hard for some significant time is her Dreaming training with the Wise Ones - and you might notice I've never said a bad word about Egwene's Dreaming achievements.

Her other successes, mainly in channeling and politics, are obviously "deus ex machina-like" and rightly remind many readers of Mary Sue.

 

How can you explain her stunning channeling technique in TGS, while her channeling training was cut short, she'd never been shown as a talent larger than Elayne or Nynaeve before and she had absolutely no time to return to it after leaving Tar Valon? How do you explain her bottomless knowledge of White Tower history and law while she had only a short, makeshift training with Siuan in these matters? Yet somehow she was able to totally dominate sisters who'd supposedly studied these matters for years.

 

The answer is simple - the perfect Amyrlin must be a perfect channeler, so RJ made Egwene a perfect channeler in TGS. The perfect Amyrlin should know White Tower law and history better than anyone, so Egwene does - even though it makes no sense from the perspective of earlier books! She is a perfect Amyrlin, who has little in common with Egwene the hard working girl - but that's too bad, I guess.

 

If you're able to show me an example of vast historical and legal studies Egwene has undertaken to outwit all sisters she discussed with (evening talks with Siuan are not enough -we're talking about years of deep study these sisters had)...Or if you're able to point me to the pages where Egwene acquired this vast experience in dealing with warders that allowed her to give sage advice about this to the sister who had had a warder probably for decades - I'll recant all my critique of Egwene as a literary character.

 

Oh yes - and this "genius" ploy of hers and Siuan's to give her more power by making the Hall to declare war against Elaida. Why hasn't the Hall take another resolution in next five minutes to declare peace with Elaida? Answer is again simple - plot convenience.

 

The "legandary Amyrlin" at last - maybe you don't realise it, but you actually support my point. You don't become "legendary" in the first year in office, when most important work is yet to be done. You are just as impatient in giving to Egwene this "legendary status" as RJ was. Compare it to Moirane, who was also called "legendary" - first we're told her story, shown how awesome she was, then after some time the word "legend" appears. In Egwene's case, we have "legendary Amyrlin" in her description:" Short girl, dark hair, legendary Amyrlin". It makes no sense to read about her further on - what will she do? Obviously, the best that can be done! She's the legendary Amyrlin after all...

 

I don't understand how can you say that Nynaeve "gives up on herself too easily". It just boggles my mind, since you're obviously fond of Egwene who "gives up on herself" all the time and without five seconds of thought. Taking into account the general lack of knowledge about Aes Sedai in Two Rivers, Ntnaeve obviously had reasons to be reluctant to throw herself into this organization (and we later see-it was to be dominated by the Black Ajah and Mesaana). You don't seem to realise how lucky they all have been it was Moiranie who found them - it could be Elaida or a Black Ajah sister. If a Black Ajah sister showed her some One Power and career prospect, Egwene would have followed happily, like a moth after some pretty light (caveat - I don't claim she would follow the DO, just that she followed the Aes Sedai without any reservations or reflection, very naively and had a lot of luck in the end).

 

3. Are you referring to the bind them with ribbon quote that Egwene haters use as proof of something it doesn't mean? You realize that countries have international treaties which bind them together, cause both countries to sacrifice 'sovereignty' but result it better situations for both places? That's what she means. Hence ribbon, something nice, not chains or iron fists which represent enslavement and military might.

 

You realise the countries you mention as an example willingly and consiously give up this sovereignity? In this case, she contemplates manipulating them into this by showing them only some of the planned consequences of this alliance. They have unequivocally said they did not want to give up their "sovereignity" to the White Tower. So Egwene thinks:" You don't want it, well, too bad. I'll make you do it anyway, but you won'y realise it". She is at the least disloyal and condescending.

 

I'm away for the weekend and don't have the convince or resources to make a post as thorough as I might usually, but that's probably best for both of us ;)

 

I look at your issue with Egwene's prominence from another direction. I am mad that Taim is not in the books enough, despite his high-profile role, but my beef is with the authors or the story in general, it doesn't make me dislike the Character. So I don't quite get that rational for hating Egwene. Also, Moir said in TEotW that she was tied up in this, and Rand clearly knew (or knows since enlightenment at least) that she is important since he told her at the WT, "I see you've done your job". Thus suggesting the pattern required her to be there. I guess you can call anything the pattern requires of important people a 'convenient plot device', but WOT is jam packed with that stuff.

 

Which is fine since I don't hate her. I've said many times that my problem is with the way her arc is written and not really Egwene as a character, who has her good sides and bad sides. Maybe I just don't like her "holier than thou" attitude, but generally she is a positive character. I agree that she is important. Btw. "hater: is a label that does not help understanding. As all labels, it simplifies the reality and distorts it (As Egwene would tell you in her "holier than thou" voice ).

 

Furthermore, Egwene has always dove into her channeling practice, Nynaeve would always get frustrated and give up. But when Nynaeve can instantly copy weaves, that's awesome! But Egwene being good is ridiculous! Give me a break. Would that problem disappear if we just wrote in a new talent for her? Why can't you just see she learns quickly when she actually works at something, how is that so much harder to believe Nynaeve can just instantly copy everything without needing practice at all?

 

Writing in early in the story a talent for, let's say, splitting weaves? Yes, that would help, because I would then know where does some of her achievements come from. This talent could first show in some minor achievements and later blossom into something spectacular, this making it more believable and removing a sudden, unbelievable "jump" in skills. For example, I've very much liked how RJ wrote in New Spring that Siuan was teaching Old Tongue classes as a very young Accepted, therefore showing how smart and hard-working she was (which is your view of Egwene, I believe). In Egwene's case I missed those small signs of future greatness, we were simply told "she might be Amyrlin in the future" (Moiraine)and showed her eagerness to learn. She's never been shown to surpass Nynaeve or Elayne in channeling skills, for example, at least before TGS.

 

Nynaeve can instantly copy weaves - it is a certain talent she has and maybe also connected with the fact that she unconsiously channeled as a Wisdom, therefore gaining some "afinity" for the weaves. She has problems enough not to look too good though - her block, even her healing weaves get criticized by the Yellows and Sumeko! In contrast, nobody ever criticizes Egwene's weaves, everybody is just overwhelmed by her perfectness.

 

I accept her high IQ and fast-learning skills- but they don't explain the way she dominates over other people in the Tower! Aes Sedai are generally expected to have high IQ and eagerness to learn, aren't they? Nynaeve has it, Elayne has, Cadsuane, Moiraine, Siuan, Verin - all of them are hard-working and smart! Egwene IMHO should be written as one of them with extra leadership skills, not as somebody so much above them in in every conceivable way.

 

Yeah she 'lucked'/Pattern wove her into the Amyrlin seat, but the seat is not supreme ruler of Tar Valon or Aes Sedai, she needs voices to stand with her to do anything, and however stupid you may consider the Aes Sedai for falling for her tricks, it still means she had to work to not be puppeteered, and work further to hold the seat while not being puppeteered.

 

It is not quite like than - "the Amyrlin's word is law", so she could theoretically rule by decree, although she would probably have more trouble from that than profit. I cheered for her effort not to be puppeteered and disliked when she began pupeteering others.

Finally about binding with ribbon. I think the WOs and the Seafolk would both be mad at you for suggesting Egwene should have to go easy on them politically because you think they don't understand the ramifications of what they're agreeing too. We only see Egwene's perspective, and just because she's happy about the deal doesn't mean the others aren't, or that they don't think they'll gain more influence as time goes on. I don't remember egwene suggesting compulsion was involved on her side.

 

Amys nodded. "This work you do is a good one so long as you do not presume to tie us in steel bands."

No, Amys. Egwene thought. I will not tie you in bands of steel. I'll use lace instead.

Towers of Midnight, An Invitation, p. 565, Orbit 2010.

 

It is deliberately ambigous IMHO. Egwene definitely wishes to manipulate the Wise Ones - giving them a generally beneficial deal, but planning to bind them to the Tower all the same, in a way they won't see, being unsilled in political maneuvering. I don't really condemn Egwene for that - she's an Amyrlin now, so she has an obligation to work in interest of her organization. But we should be consistent in how we look at her - if she represents a particular interest of the White Tower, then she shouldn't presume the role of the world leader. If she wants to be a world leader, she should give more respect to the WO's wish for independence.

[Ranskey]

"The way she subdugated Gawen and Nyneave. Nyneave is older and wiser then you, more powerfull in the OP she dosn't deserve to humiliated like that, no matter how irritating she might be by herself. (If she tugs that braid one more time i sware I'll scream). You teated him like dirt, untill he actualy saved your life, then best you can do is make him warder under your twisted power hungry mind set. That is not how the warder bond is suposed to work!"

 

Lets face it, Gawyn got off easy. He deserved alot worse. He is a terribly static character. He did absolutely nothing for 5 books except sit there doing Elaida's bidding. It's funny how Galad turned out to be much more useful and entertaining. Egwene should have just said thanks for saving my life and sent him off to serve his sister where he belonged all along.

[Kahsm]

Kael, I'd respond to you with facts but I'm pretty sure you'd just dismiss or ignore me.

 

This is quite uncalled for. I have certainly not ignored people. And while i can be prickly at times, I still offer another interpretation, sometimes with additional quote evidence, which you and anyone else is more than welcome to disprove if you have further evidence.

 

So you're right, if you respond to me with what you see as 'facts', I may very well respond with alternate interpretations of those quotes that may lessen the severity of your conviction, or out-right destroy your argument. That does not mean that I think you are absolutely incorrect, but unless you have further evidence that my interpretation is wrong, you should not be so certain of your own position. While it's perfectly fine to maintain our differences, we are both required to recognize and respect that other variations of events, opinions, mindsets, or motivations are possible.

 

If you can't handle that, that's your problem, not mine.

[Kahsm]

I look at your issue with Egwene's prominence from another direction. I am mad that Taim is not in the books enough, despite his high-profile role, but my beef is with the authors or the story in general, it doesn't make me dislike the Character. So I don't quite get that rational for hating Egwene. Also, Moir said in TEotW that she was tied up in this, and Rand clearly knew (or knows since enlightenment at least) that she is important since he told her at the WT, "I see you've done your job". Thus suggesting the pattern required her to be there. I guess you can call anything the pattern requires of important people a 'convenient plot device', but WOT is jam packed with that stuff.

 

Which is fine since I don't hate her. I've said many times that my problem is with the way her arc is written and not really Egwene as a character, who has her good sides and bad sides. Maybe I just don't like her "holier than thou" attitude, but generally she is a positive character. I agree that she is important. Btw. "hater: is a label that does not help understanding. As all labels, it simplifies the reality and distorts it (As Egwene would tell you in her "holier than thou" voice ).

 

Fair enough. I was just talking Egwene hate since that's the thread we're in, and you seemed to be defending that position, so I will retract my response in that regard.

 

Furthermore, Egwene has always dove into her channeling practice, Nynaeve would always get frustrated and give up. But when Nynaeve can instantly copy weaves, that's awesome! But Egwene being good is ridiculous! Give me a break. Would that problem disappear if we just wrote in a new talent for her? Why can't you just see she learns quickly when she actually works at something, how is that so much harder to believe Nynaeve can just instantly copy everything without needing practice at all?

 

Writing in early in the story a talent for, let's say, splitting weaves? Yes, that would help, because I would then know where does some of her achievements come from. This talent could first show in some minor achievements and later blossom into something spectacular, this making it more believable and removing a sudden, unbelievable "jump" in skills. For example, I've very much liked how RJ wrote in New Spring that Siuan was teaching Old Tongue classes as a very young Accepted, therefore showing how smart and hard-working she was (which is your view of Egwene, I believe). In Egwene's case I missed those small signs of future greatness, we were simply told "she might be Amyrlin in the future" (Moiraine)and showed her eagerness to learn. She's never been shown to surpass Nynaeve or Elayne in channeling skills, for example, at least before TGS.

 

Nynaeve can instantly copy weaves - it is a certain talent she has and maybe also connected with the fact that she unconsiously channeled as a Wisdom, therefore gaining some "afinity" for the weaves. She has problems enough not to look too good though - her block, even her healing weaves get criticized by the Yellows and Sumeko! In contrast, nobody ever criticizes Egwene's weaves, everybody is just overwhelmed by her perfectness.

 

I accept her high IQ and fast-learning skills- but they don't explain the way she dominates over other people in the Tower! Aes Sedai are generally expected to have high IQ and eagerness to learn, aren't they? Nynaeve has it, Elayne has, Cadsuane, Moiraine, Siuan, Verin - all of them are hard-working and smart! Egwene IMHO should be written as one of them with extra leadership skills, not as somebody so much above them in in every conceivable way.

 

Despite my love for Egwene, I don't seem to feel she's quite as 'super' as you suggest. She's compared to Moir in terms of her desire to learn (Verin talks about fear holding back most novices and Egwene doesn't have it), but she's also stronger than Moir in the OP which would explain any extra speed she has in learning.

 

Egwene has been juggling balls with Elayne since they were novices, and weaving 2 things is more than twice as hard as weaving 1. What she does in the novice class as prisoner to show off is an extension of that juggling. Except after lots of channeling experience with the seanchan, forsaken, aiel, and more Aes Sedai.

 

Also, Egwene doesn't exactly inspire people to follow her like Lan does just walking through the borderlands. She does have a good sense of calmness and clear thinking while under stress. But given her time as damaene, and her time as Elaida's prisoner that makes perfect sense. No other character has experienced that. Just because she rallies a few novices/accepted in the heat of battle doesn't mean she's written as a LTT-level general (yet).

 

I tend to think she is how you described her, Moir level (but OP stronger, so relatively better in that regard) with added clear-thinking/political skills shaped by her early wisdom training and determination for self-improvement and honed by the hardening she developed under the seanchan and later with Elaida.

 

Amys nodded. "This work you do is a good one so long as you do not presume to tie us in steel bands."

No, Amys. Egwene thought. I will not tie you in bands of steel. I'll use lace instead.

Towers of Midnight, An Invitation, p. 565, Orbit 2010.

 

It is deliberately ambigous IMHO. Egwene definitely wishes to manipulate the Wise Ones - giving them a generally beneficial deal, but planning to bind them to the Tower all the same, in a way they won't see, being unsilled in political maneuvering. I don't really condemn Egwene for that - she's an Amyrlin now, so she has an obligation to work in interest of her organization. But we should be consistent in how we look at her - if she represents a particular interest of the White Tower, then she shouldn't presume the role of the world leader. If she wants to be a world leader, she should give more respect to the WO's wish for independence.

 

I don't see how she 'definitely wishes to manipulate the Wise Ones'. She does want influence over all women channelers (likely men too), but using lace to bind them would suggest her intentions would be for the betterment of everyone. They will be bound to her because they want to be. Lace doesn't actually bind, it's a peace offering that makes them want to stay. She's thinking, "by the time I'm done, you'll want to be bound to me". And I certainly will not hold wanting to run a good institution that people want to be a part of against the girl.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Despite my love for Egwene, I don't seem to feel she's quite as 'super' as you suggest. She's compared to Moir in terms of her desire to learn (Verin talks about fear holding back most novices and Egwene doesn't have it), but she's also stronger than Moir in the OP which would explain any extra speed she has in learning.

 

Egwene has been juggling balls with Elayne since they were novices, and weaving 2 things is more than twice as hard as weaving 1. What she does in the novice class as prisoner to show off is an extension of that juggling. Except after lots of channeling experience with the seanchan, forsaken, aiel, and more Aes Sedai.

 

Also, Egwene doesn't exactly inspire people to follow her like Lan does just walking through the borderlands. She does have a good sense of calmness and clear thinking while under stress. But given her time as damaene, and her time as Elaida's prisoner that makes perfect sense. No other character has experienced that. Just because she rallies a few novices/accepted in the heat of battle doesn't mean she's written as a LTT-level general (yet).

 

I tend to think she is how you described her, Moir level (but OP stronger, so relatively better in that regard) with added clear-thinking/political skills shaped by her early wisdom training and determination for self-improvement and honed by the hardening she developed under the seanchan and later with Elaida.

 

Fair enough, though Moiraine had years of training and field experience. But generally I see your point.

 

Amys nodded. "This work you do is a good one so long as you do not presume to tie us in steel bands."

No, Amys. Egwene thought. I will not tie you in bands of steel. I'll use lace instead.

Towers of Midnight, An Invitation, p. 565, Orbit 2010.

 

It is deliberately ambigous IMHO. Egwene definitely wishes to manipulate the Wise Ones - giving them a generally beneficial deal, but planning to bind them to the Tower all the same, in a way they won't see, being unsilled in political maneuvering. I don't really condemn Egwene for that - she's an Amyrlin now, so she has an obligation to work in interest of her organization. But we should be consistent in how we look at her - if she represents a particular interest of the White Tower, then she shouldn't presume the role of the world leader. If she wants to be a world leader, she should give more respect to the WO's wish for independence.

 

I don't see how she 'definitely wishes to manipulate the Wise Ones'. She does want influence over all women channelers (likely men too), but using lace to bind them would suggest her intentions would be for the betterment of everyone. They will be bound to her because they want to be. Lace doesn't actually bind, it's a peace offering that makes them want to stay. She's thinking, "by the time I'm done, you'll want to be bound to me". And I certainly will not hold wanting to run a good institution that people want to be a part of against the girl.

 

I guess you place emphasis on "lace", I on "bind". Of course her intentions are not evil, but they still include extending White Tower's authority over the Wise Ones, who, having agreed to a student exchange, generally wish to remain independent.

 

I don't see Egwene's thoughts as meaning "White Tower will be so cool they will want to join in themselves". I understand them like this: she wants to offer them mutually beneficial agreements, the one they just agreed to and some others in the future, shaped in the way to subtly incease the White Tower's influence over the Wise Ones and making independence they clearly value in fact impossible.

 

If Egwene wanted the WO to decide freely whether to be bound to the White Tower or not, she wouldn't have thought "I'll use lace instead". They will freely decide on some agreements with the WT, and some further consequences of these agreements (they won't see until too late) will be the decrease in WO's freedom and independence of the White Tower. It is no small deal, since the WOs are extremely important for the Aiel, and if another power will influence or control them, the Aiel will be in serious trouble.

 

Again, I don't see it as very bad. She is an Aes Sedai after all, not a Wise One. Everybody should care for their own.

[Entreri]

"She has a completely unfounded belief in the superiority of her own judgment, and the necessity for all to defer to her. I realize that all Aes Sedai do, but it is far worse in her case. Someone like Cadsuane might be able to say to herself, with some justification, “You know, self, I’ve seen a lot in the last 400 years. My experience is superior to that of virtually anyone alive.” A Brown (take your pick) might be able to say to herself, with some justification, “I have spent decades studying this question. My knowledge of the subject is superior to that of virtually anyone else.” Egwene is an unschooled, 19-year-old who came to her position mostly by dint of being the candidate least objectionable to all of the various factions. She has neither the experience nor the knowledge to justify her belief that she always knows best. It would be fine if she recognized this, but thought she needed to put on a brave face due to her position. But there is nothing in her POVs that suggests that she does. She just thinks she knows best."

 

Exactly. A foolish child, as the Wise Ones have said many times to her.

 

Cadsuane with her breath of experience, accomplishments, and vast age, is an invaluable resource to Rand, whatever Rand, most other characters, all the readers or even Brandon thinks of her personally.

 

Egwene on the other hand, is a 18 or 19 year old child that due to very lucky circumstances is the Amyrlin.

[Skeeve the Great]

What I would love to see is Cadsuane be an advisor to Egwene. And then slap her in the face (as she did to Rand) whenever Egwene says something stoopid to her friends.

[Justanotherfacet]

Onya Egwene, i say keep on rolling out like a boss. All your underlings in the series are stupid, petty and ineffectual slags and it takes the biggest badass bitch of all to keep them in line.

 

Anyone seen Full Metal Jacket? She's that dude...

 

Egwene is doing what has to be done and you're all whinging about it because she happens to step on your characters toes while she's getting their flabby, unidirectional asses in line.

 

By the way, as for the quote "I was a burning warrior, a hero called by the Horn. They won't dare face me again."

I LOVED that moment, she was rockin out, beating some bitches doooowwwnnn and living in the moment.

I HATE that everyone in the series is so sad and or scared all the time, enjoy the little things my friends! Love, hate and defend with passion. Glory in your victories, learn from your defeats and never let it happen again.

 

In conclusion: Keep on being badass Egwene, there's a reason why your you're the second most powerful character, second only to the man chosen by the creator to save the world.

 

-PT

[Durinax]

Anyone seen Full Metal Jacket? She's that dude...

Egwene is doing what has to be done and you're all whinging about it because she happens to step on your characters toes while she's getting their flabby, unidirectional asses in line.

-PT

you mean the one who committed suicide in FMJ, thats the one she reminds me of.

 

and we arent critizing her for getting the AS into some sort of organization for the greater good, what we are complaining about is how she goes about it. after all one of the themes of the books is 'the ends does not justify the means'

[Justanotherfacet]

Na, this one

 

 

=D

[AshaShan]

 

"I was a burning warrior, a hero called by the Horn. They won't dare face me again."

 

 

That was one of the most unintentionally funny lines in the series IMO. Not only is it monumentally arrogant and self-agrandifying, but it is also just plain stupid. The Seanchan have already faced the actual, true, honest to god Heroes of the Horn; and given that they are still invading the lands of the people those Heroes fought beside, their daring would seem to be of the level needed to face them again. Egwene... you should be embarassed to have even thought those words.

[randsc]

^ +1

 

I literally laughed out loud when I read it for the first time.

[Kahsm]

Onya Egwene, i say keep on rolling out like a boss. All your underlings in the series are stupid, petty and ineffectual slags and it takes the biggest badass bitch of all to keep them in line.

 

Anyone seen Full Metal Jacket? She's that dude...

 

Egwene is doing what has to be done and you're all whinging about it because she happens to step on your characters toes while she's getting their flabby, unidirectional asses in line.

 

By the way, as for the quote "I was a burning warrior, a hero called by the Horn. They won't dare face me again."

I LOVED that moment, she was rockin out, beating some bitches doooowwwnnn and living in the moment.

I HATE that everyone in the series is so sad and or scared all the time, enjoy the little things my friends! Love, hate and defend with passion. Glory in your victories, learn from your defeats and never let it happen again.

 

In conclusion: Keep on being badass Egwene, there's a reason why your you're the second most powerful character, second only to the man chosen by the creator to save the world.

 

-PT

 

Generally I agree, particularly about being tired with all the cry baby 'heroes'. But I will call you out on the final line about being second only to Rand. Great to like her, but that is probably hyperbolic. I hope it's true though ;)

[Kahsm]

Anyone seen Full Metal Jacket? She's that dude...

Egwene is doing what has to be done and you're all whinging about it because she happens to step on your characters toes while she's getting their flabby, unidirectional asses in line.

-PT

you mean the one who committed suicide in FMJ, thats the one she reminds me of.

 

and we arent critizing her for getting the AS into some sort of organization for the greater good, what we are complaining about is how she goes about it. after all one of the themes of the books is 'the ends does not justify the means'

 

Is it? Rand gains respect from Ingtar for saying something about how could he live with himself if he sacrificed a friend in the name of the greater good, sure. But Moir tells the three boys a few times she'd kill them herself if they risked victory over the shadow. Siuan says much the same to the girls. But they also believe in sacrificing themselves. Moir does (or intended to). And Nyn admits to Cadsuane's lesson about "what must be endured, can be endured".

 

Furthermore, since this is the hate thread, feel free to quote these abhorrent deeds Egwene has done in order to succeed.

 

Edit: Oh yeah and the entire accepted test of course...