Egwene hate thread

[dutchman1789]

The only thing I dislike about Egwene is keeping the Three Oaths. Especially with her exprience with the Seachan. At least they should have changed the oath to, Last Defense of ones life or being made into a damane.

[Strykr017]

She's too good at everything. She somehow becomes a master at politics despite having little experience and going up against women that have been playing that game for (literally) hundreds of years. Everyone loves her, thinks she's great, etc. It's too much.

[XXX]

Forget everything..she is the head of the most sexist arrogant organization in Randland and trying to keep them still on top. Is anything else needed to hate her?

[SylvanFox]

Maybe this can be the official Egwene hate thread, and all rants can be placed here, even if another thread has spurred the Egwene anger.

[Ala Rubra]

Egwene can grind my gears anytime, if you know what I mean.

[Apotheosis]

The whole thing with the breaking the seals.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I think that "Egwene controversy" on the forums is caused to some extent by the lack of any balancing out of her "awesomness" in the books. Every other character has some major drawbacks, gets criticized or is shown in a way which prompts the reader to question them (e.g. when Rand destroys Natrim's Barrow - wow, he's powerful and smart, but OMG what is he doing?!It's evil!)

 

In Egwene's case, I get the impression her story is told specifically in order to create a particular "image" of Egwene in the eyes of the reader - great Amyrlin. We're not shown her "as she is" (in an imagined world of WOT, I'm aware of that), with some good actions and some bad actions and we - the readers - are not allowed by the author to make up our own minds about Egwene. Her arc reads as though it was written by the White Tower's PR department.

 

I think all these discussions come from the unbalanced way she is portrayed in the books - if somebody does not "buy" her pure and unlimited awesomness, then the only place to express this frustration is the forum, because in the books you can find just another praise of Egwene...and another...and another.

 

It changed a little in ToM though, and, what's interesting, a few Egwene's fans have criticized ToM because in their eyes the portrayal of her character has strayed from the shining path from TGS. In my eyes, it was a relief and possibly the best Brandon has done to this character, making her a little more believable.

 

Another thing is inconsistency in Egwene's narration throughout the series. In the first few books, she is one of important characters (on par with Nynaeve, Elayne, Moiraine) while the Dragon is clearly the central piece of the story. Further on, Egwene get elevated to a more important place, culminating in TGS where the whole strory shows her and Rand as two equally important elements. Even now the "confrontation between Rand and Egwene" in the AMoL is discussed more than Rand's confrontation with the DO! It seems as though RJ realised halfway through that Egwene should have more important role to play and suddenly "boosted" her up to her current level - but her previous history does not justify it! There is no "in-story" reason to believe Egwene is as essential to the Last Battle as the Dragon - but the story has been written for some time as though she is!The best example are parallel plotlines of Rand fighting against his inner darkness and Egwene regaining the Tower in TGS.

 

Just my two cents. To conclude, there are lots of the characters in WOT I dislike more than Egwene, but only Egwene is the character where my feelings go "against the story" so to speak, which causes me to feel disconnected and lessens my enjoyment of the books a little (I still enjoy them very much).

[karzer]

Forget everything..she is the head of the most sexist arrogant organization in Randland and trying to keep them still on top. Is anything else needed to hate her?

 

 

Hahahaha, well said!I can't stand her. She remind me of some feminist nazi-type leader

[plague fiend]

I'm having some serious rage about this.

 

Normaly if a character is iritating i can deal. Irritating can be apart of the characters personality. But this... my jimmys have seriously been ruffled by this character.

 

Most of the time i don't really care that much about her, she is a okay chacter except at these points where she really gets on my flaming nerves

 

1. In part 3 DR: Egwene shows her real potential of being a annoying chit. "Nyneave is older and wiser then you listen and do what she says you stupid woman. You deserved that massive slap Elayne gave you!"

 

2. The way she treated Mat after he RESCUED HER FROM CERTAIN BECOMING A DARKFRIEND!!! after she KNEW he was coming all that way to help from her dreams, what dose she do? Pushes him around with OP. I can exuse Nyneave and Elayne for this because they come up with ligitamite appologys.

 

3. Trying to unite all female chanelers under the white tower. Right now here is the thing, that is not so bad until you manipulate the blood and ash out of them and trying to control them. She must be mad and/or drunk with power.

 

4. The way she subdugated Gawen and Nyneave. Nyneave is older and wiser then you, more powerfull in the OP she dosn't deserve to humiliated like that, no matter how irritating she might be by herself. (If she tugs that braid one more time i sware I'll scream). You teated him like dirt, untill he actualy saved your life, then best you can do is make him warder under your twisted power hungry mind set. That is not how the warder bond is suposed to work!

 

Well i'm glad thats out, mostly she isn't a bad character it's just these 4 things that really grind be gears.

 

I guess the only beef I have with her is one I have with all the White Tower. They use everyone and thing as a tool to serve them. They live outside of the world and act as if the world should be grateful that they exist and to serve them.

[Dashaan Vorsharn (MK_Kupa)]

Maybe this can be the official Egwene hate thread, and all rants can be placed here, even if another thread has spurred the Egwene anger.

 

Thats kinda what i was thinking. If your reading and you find Egwene dose something fustrating you can come here and vent.

 

I think people hate her, not becasue she is allways going against rand with the seals and such. It's not even becasue, IMO, that she is some upstart little arrogent girl who was made Amyerlin, or had the OP, or is Aei Sedai. Just becasue she has these things she thinks everybody can bow down to her and kiss her ring.

 

It's becasue she gets away with it. It makes no sence. A girl ordering around 150 year old Aei Sedai, or manaeging to get a huge army to try and stop not a false dragon, but the real callendor weild dragon re-bloody-bourn. It just dosn't fit. Unless Egwene is allso Ta'veren if so it might make it more plausable. I'm just saying.

 

She is a good character, it's just that she gets away with so much it's not fair.

[DemandredFO]

One of the reasons I despise Egwene like many others have said is she gets away with everything. Nyneave and Cadsuane are there to tell Rand he's an idiot until TOM but when people disagree with Egwene, they obviously are idiots. Now Egwene fans may argue she got a little comeupance when she apologized to the WO for sneaking into T'A'R but she never apologized to Nyneave and she gets a high from bullying Nyneave. The WT assault is another thing she gets pissed at Siuan for rescue, and I do admit Gawyn did it for personal reasons. Suian and Bryne knew better I'm sure, but Egwene was extremely upset at the rescue and never admits even to herself that they did the right thing. There are in general too many things to list.

Rand at least has inner monologues where he criticizes himself, but Egwene has no self criticism

[randsc]

Here's my c&p, from one of the many times I have written up why I don't like this character.

 

I will say that more annoying than any of the reasons I list is her real-world partisans, who mostly seem unable to come up with any arguments in her favor that don't sooner or later degenerate into, "You're a sexist, or you'd like her!" or "You're just an Rand fanboy, or you'd like her!"

 

For those who don't understand why many feel Egwene is so awful, I'll offer this little primer.

 

First, let me start by saying that I believe that Egwene is being written this way very intentionally. I am aware of the fact that RJ was frequently criticized for being unable to write strong female characters that didn't come across as bitches. But I think the growth we have seen in some of the female characters (notably Nynaeve, Cadsuane and Min) is proof that he could write strong female characters that aren't bitches. Or at least, proof that Sanderson can.

 

So if Egwene is being written as a cluesless, arrogant witch (and she is) it is intentional. There will be a plot justification for it. I favor the Halima compulsion explanation myself, but it may turn out to be something else.

 

Now, as to the ways in which Egwene is awful.

 

1. She opposes Rand instinctively, with no plan of her own. It's fine to be freaked by the idea of breaking the seals. It is not fine to simply attempt to stonewall while making no attempt to come up with a better plan, and devoting the resources (e.g., the Browns) who could have helped come up with a better plan to White Tower politics instead.

 

2. She spends time and effort trying to ensure that the White Tower will control all of the female channelers, post-Last Battle. Her little scheme with the Wise Ones and Windfinders might not be a bad idea. But if the breaking the seals is the WOT equivilent of nuclear war, as some claim, than what Egwene is doing is the equivilent of plotting to ensure that that nuclear war benefits her political party in the resulting redistricting. Outrageous.

 

3. We can see into her head, and what we see is ugly. I find the speculation about Egwene's motivations and attitudes fruitful only when we don't have direct knowledge of what she is thinking. We have Egwene POVs that give us that direct knowledge in a number of cases. Egwene doesn't think to herself, "If only Rand would EXPLAIN why he thinks he needs to break the seals." She just thinks she knows better. She doesn't think to herself, "You know, Nynaeve has spent a lot of time with Rand lately, and I trust her judgment. Maybe I should follow up later on why she isn't sure Rand's idea is crazy. But I'll oppose that plan until I have a chance to talk to her about it and consider her answers." She just thinks that Nynaeve has been spending to much time with Rand and is caught in the Ta'Veren effect. She doesn't think to herself, "I love and respect Gawyn, I just wish he would realize the difficult position I am in as a young, new Amyrlin, and defer to me in public." Instead, even her thoughts indicate that she expects not just public deference of the sort she demands of Nynaeve, but actual submission to her will.

 

4. She has a completely unfounded belief in the superiority of her own judgment, and the necessity for all to defer to her. I realize that all Aes Sedai do, but it is far worse in her case. Someone like Cadsuane might be able to say to herself, with some justification, “You know, self, I’ve seen a lot in the last 400 years. My experience is superior to that of virtually anyone alive.” A Brown (take your pick) might be able to say to herself, with some justification, “I have spent decades studying this question. My knowledge of the subject is superior to that of virtually anyone else.” Egwene is an unschooled, 19-year-old who came to her position mostly by dint of being the candidate least objectionable to all of the various factions. She has neither the experience nor the knowledge to justify her belief that she always knows best. It would be fine if she recognized this, but thought she needed to put on a brave face due to her position. But there is nothing in her POVs that suggests that she does. She just thinks she knows best.

 

5. Rand isn’t a king. I have seen a number of comments to the effect of, “No leader should be unquestioned.” Interestingly, this apparently applies only when Rand is the leader in question. Questioning our teenage Amyrlin remains verboten. But regardless, Rand is not a “leader.” He is the Dragon Reborn, the living fulfillment of the Prophecies, the Messiah come to save the World. All major characters accept this. He is the only hope of victory over the Shadow. He has been given special gifts to help him do this. And yet Egwene thinks he should, “Submit to the guidance of the Tower?” If there is a Second Coming of Jesus, will he be expected to “submit himself to the guidance” of Pat Robertson?

 

6. She pits herself against the pattern. She believes that anyone opposing her must be swept up in Ta’veren effects. Because of course no one behaving rationally could possibly oppose HER! But lets say she’s right, and Nynaeve (for example) has been swept up in Rand’s ta’veren influence. What exactly is that influence? It is the freakin’ Pattern , the motive force of the Universe, bending itself around someone in order to accomplish something that must happen. So not only is Egwene’s judgment superior to that of the Dragon Reborn, the Aiel Wise One, all the centuries-old Aes Sedai, her friends, and every other human on the planet. Her judgment is superior to the working of the Universe itself. Okey-dokie.

 

7. She’s a good, old-fashioned sexist. No other way to put it, really. Again, we don’t need to simply divine this from her actions (although we certainly could.) We see her thoughts. And she continues to hold female chauvinist beliefs. It is instructive, I think, to see how much she objects to women being bonded to male channelers. Not Aes Sedai, that’s not how she thinks of them. WOMEN. But women bonding men is just fine. It's interesting, I think, that the female Foresaken don't have the same sorts of sexist thoughts in their POVs that Egwene does in hers. In this regard, at least, she is a worse person than Lanfear or Graendel.

 

8. Her actions toward Perrin in TAR. Are not just arrogant, they’re potentially deadly. Trying to tie him up in the middle of a battle? And don’t tell me, “Oh, she was just doing that while she pushed him out of the Dream.” In the first place, we haven’t seen anything to suggest that immobilizing someone is necessary or even helpful in pushing them out of the Dream. In the second place, she says something like, “I’m sorry Perrin, I’ll be back for you.” She was clearly planning on leaving him in place while she ran off and fought the battle.

 

9. No respect for the man she supposedly loves. A.) No apology for Gawyn about the Blackknives. No thanks for saving her life. Bitch move. She knows she was wrong, but still won’t admit it. B.) No personal note asking him to return when he leaves (after she tells him she doesn’t need him). She has no official right to control his actions. He is not a Warder, or serving in her army. She has only a personal tie. And yet the note is sent by a flunky she knows dislikes men in general and Gawyn in particular. Bitch. C.) Even after events have proven that Gawyn’s judgment isn’t bad and has in at least one instance been correct while hers has been wrong, she is dismissive of his warning about Perrin and the armies. Fool.

 

10. No help for the Borderlands. Can’t allow that to get in the way of her gathering armies to herself. Because you know, she might need those armies if Rand, “Forces her hand.”

Egwene is awful. Simply awful. If there were justice in WOT world, she would be stilled and executed. But there is no justice in WOT world, or in modern publishing, so she’ll probably not even suffer any public embarrassment.

[EpitomyofShyness]

*tosses Egwene hate confetti*

[csarmi]

I'm having some serious rage about this.

 

Normaly if a character is iritating i can deal. Irritating can be apart of the characters personality. But this... my jimmys have seriously been ruffled by this character.

 

Most of the time i don't really care that much about her, she is a okay chacter except at these points where she really gets on my flaming nerves

 

1. In part 3 DR: Egwene shows her real potential of being a annoying chit. "Nyneave is older and wiser then you listen and do what she says you stupid woman. You deserved that massive slap Elayne gave you!"

 

2. The way she treated Mat after he RESCUED HER FROM CERTAIN BECOMING A DARKFRIEND!!! after she KNEW he was coming all that way to help from her dreams, what dose she do? Pushes him around with OP. I can exuse Nyneave and Elayne for this because they come up with ligitamite appologys.

 

3. Trying to unite all female chanelers under the white tower. Right now here is the thing, that is not so bad until you manipulate the blood and ash out of them and trying to control them. She must be mad and/or drunk with power.

 

4. The way she subdugated Gawen and Nyneave. Nyneave is older and wiser then you, more powerfull in the OP she dosn't deserve to humiliated like that, no matter how irritating she might be by herself. (If she tugs that braid one more time i sware I'll scream). You teated him like dirt, untill he actualy saved your life, then best you can do is make him warder under your twisted power hungry mind set. That is not how the warder bond is suposed to work!

 

Well i'm glad thats out, mostly she isn't a bad character it's just these 4 things that really grind be gears.

 

Your post is close to impossible to read and comprehend.

[Skeeve the Great]

Here's my c&p, from one of the many times I have written up why I don't like this character.

 

I will say that more annoying than any of the reasons I list is her real-world partisans, who mostly seem unable to come up with any arguments in her favor that don't sooner or later degenerate into, "You're a sexist, or you'd like her!" or "You're just an Rand fanboy, or you'd like her!"

 

For those who don't understand why many feel Egwene is so awful, I'll offer this little primer.

 

First, let me start by saying that I believe that Egwene is being written this way very intentionally. I am aware of the fact that RJ was frequently criticized for being unable to write strong female characters that didn't come across as bitches. But I think the growth we have seen in some of the female characters (notably Nynaeve, Cadsuane and Min) is proof that he could write strong female characters that aren't bitches. Or at least, proof that Sanderson can.

 

So if Egwene is being written as a cluesless, arrogant witch (and she is) it is intentional. There will be a plot justification for it. I favor the Halima compulsion explanation myself, but it may turn out to be something else.

 

Now, as to the ways in which Egwene is awful.

 

1. She opposes Rand instinctively, with no plan of her own. It's fine to be freaked by the idea of breaking the seals. It is not fine to simply attempt to stonewall while making no attempt to come up with a better plan, and devoting the resources (e.g., the Browns) who could have helped come up with a better plan to White Tower politics instead.

 

2. She spends time and effort trying to ensure that the White Tower will control all of the female channelers, post-Last Battle. Her little scheme with the Wise Ones and Windfinders might not be a bad idea. But if the breaking the seals is the WOT equivilent of nuclear war, as some claim, than what Egwene is doing is the equivilent of plotting to ensure that that nuclear war benefits her political party in the resulting redistricting. Outrageous.

 

3. We can see into her head, and what we see is ugly. I find the speculation about Egwene's motivations and attitudes fruitful only when we don't have direct knowledge of what she is thinking. We have Egwene POVs that give us that direct knowledge in a number of cases. Egwene doesn't think to herself, "If only Rand would EXPLAIN why he thinks he needs to break the seals." She just thinks she knows better. She doesn't think to herself, "You know, Nynaeve has spent a lot of time with Rand lately, and I trust her judgment. Maybe I should follow up later on why she isn't sure Rand's idea is crazy. But I'll oppose that plan until I have a chance to talk to her about it and consider her answers." She just thinks that Nynaeve has been spending to much time with Rand and is caught in the Ta'Veren effect. She doesn't think to herself, "I love and respect Gawyn, I just wish he would realize the difficult position I am in as a young, new Amyrlin, and defer to me in public." Instead, even her thoughts indicate that she expects not just public deference of the sort she demands of Nynaeve, but actual submission to her will.

 

4. She has a completely unfounded belief in the superiority of her own judgment, and the necessity for all to defer to her. I realize that all Aes Sedai do, but it is far worse in her case. Someone like Cadsuane might be able to say to herself, with some justification, “You know, self, I’ve seen a lot in the last 400 years. My experience is superior to that of virtually anyone alive.” A Brown (take your pick) might be able to say to herself, with some justification, “I have spent decades studying this question. My knowledge of the subject is superior to that of virtually anyone else.” Egwene is an unschooled, 19-year-old who came to her position mostly by dint of being the candidate least objectionable to all of the various factions. She has neither the experience nor the knowledge to justify her belief that she always knows best. It would be fine if she recognized this, but thought she needed to put on a brave face due to her position. But there is nothing in her POVs that suggests that she does. She just thinks she knows best.

 

5. Rand isn’t a king. I have seen a number of comments to the effect of, “No leader should be unquestioned.” Interestingly, this apparently applies only when Rand is the leader in question. Questioning our teenage Amyrlin remains verboten. But regardless, Rand is not a “leader.” He is the Dragon Reborn, the living fulfillment of the Prophecies, the Messiah come to save the World. All major characters accept this. He is the only hope of victory over the Shadow. He has been given special gifts to help him do this. And yet Egwene thinks he should, “Submit to the guidance of the Tower?” If there is a Second Coming of Jesus, will he be expected to “submit himself to the guidance” of Pat Robertson?

 

6. She pits herself against the pattern. She believes that anyone opposing her must be swept up in Ta’veren effects. Because of course no one behaving rationally could possibly oppose HER! But lets say she’s right, and Nynaeve (for example) has been swept up in Rand’s ta’veren influence. What exactly is that influence? It is the freakin’ Pattern , the motive force of the Universe, bending itself around someone in order to accomplish something that must happen. So not only is Egwene’s judgment superior to that of the Dragon Reborn, the Aiel Wise One, all the centuries-old Aes Sedai, her friends, and every other human on the planet. Her judgment is superior to the working of the Universe itself. Okey-dokie.

 

7. She’s a good, old-fashioned sexist. No other way to put it, really. Again, we don’t need to simply divine this from her actions (although we certainly could.) We see her thoughts. And she continues to hold female chauvinist beliefs. It is instructive, I think, to see how much she objects to women being bonded to male channelers. Not Aes Sedai, that’s not how she thinks of them. WOMEN. But women bonding men is just fine. It's interesting, I think, that the female Foresaken don't have the same sorts of sexist thoughts in their POVs that Egwene does in hers. In this regard, at least, she is a worse person than Lanfear or Graendel.

 

8. Her actions toward Perrin in TAR. Are not just arrogant, they’re potentially deadly. Trying to tie him up in the middle of a battle? And don’t tell me, “Oh, she was just doing that while she pushed him out of the Dream.” In the first place, we haven’t seen anything to suggest that immobilizing someone is necessary or even helpful in pushing them out of the Dream. In the second place, she says something like, “I’m sorry Perrin, I’ll be back for you.” She was clearly planning on leaving him in place while she ran off and fought the battle.

 

9. No respect for the man she supposedly loves. A.) No apology for Gawyn about the Blackknives. No thanks for saving her life. Bitch move. She knows she was wrong, but still won’t admit it. B.) No personal note asking him to return when he leaves (after she tells him she doesn’t need him). She has no official right to control his actions. He is not a Warder, or serving in her army. She has only a personal tie. And yet the note is sent by a flunky she knows dislikes men in general and Gawyn in particular. Bitch. C.) Even after events have proven that Gawyn’s judgment isn’t bad and has in at least one instance been correct while hers has been wrong, she is dismissive of his warning about Perrin and the armies. Fool.

 

10. No help for the Borderlands. Can’t allow that to get in the way of her gathering armies to herself. Because you know, she might need those armies if Rand, “Forces her hand.”

Egwene is awful. Simply awful. If there were justice in WOT world, she would be stilled and executed. But there is no justice in WOT world, or in modern publishing, so she’ll probably not even suffer any public embarrassment.

 

Good summary. Agree on all points.

[Hybrid]

I'm having some serious rage about this.

 

Normaly if a character is iritating i can deal. Irritating can be apart of the characters personality. But this... my jimmys have seriously been ruffled by this character.

 

Most of the time i don't really care that much about her, she is a okay chacter except at these points where she really gets on my flaming nerves

 

1. In part 3 DR: Egwene shows her real potential of being a annoying chit. "Nyneave is older and wiser then you listen and do what she says you stupid woman. You deserved that massive slap Elayne gave you!"

 

2. The way she treated Mat after he RESCUED HER FROM CERTAIN BECOMING A DARKFRIEND!!! after she KNEW he was coming all that way to help from her dreams, what dose she do? Pushes him around with OP. I can exuse Nyneave and Elayne for this because they come up with ligitamite appologys.

 

3. Trying to unite all female chanelers under the white tower. Right now here is the thing, that is not so bad until you manipulate the blood and ash out of them and trying to control them. She must be mad and/or drunk with power.

 

4. The way she subdugated Gawen and Nyneave. Nyneave is older and wiser then you, more powerfull in the OP she dosn't deserve to humiliated like that, no matter how irritating she might be by herself. (If she tugs that braid one more time i sware I'll scream). You teated him like dirt, untill he actualy saved your life, then best you can do is make him warder under your twisted power hungry mind set. That is not how the warder bond is suposed to work!

 

Well i'm glad thats out, mostly she isn't a bad character it's just these 4 things that really grind be gears.

 

Your post is close to impossible to read and comprehend.

 

Nice trolling.

[Elan Tedronai]

almost every single point against egwene has been rebutted to hell and back.

 

all i can say is hate hate hate.

 

keep hating because the amyrlin's express is heading full steam to sun and glory.

 

The express is powered by robert jordan love. Doesnt that hurt my fellow haters? The object of your hate is so favoured by the author and her stock will only keep rising.

 

no hope of a comeuppance? no likelihood of bringing her down a notch or two? tsk tsk. AMOL will be glorious. i will be drowning in these forums soon. Tears of bitterness. Oh they are going to be tasty. I shall drink a cup or two to thee.

[capuga]

almost every single point against egwene has been rebutted to hell and back.

 

all i can say is hate hate hate.

 

keep hating because the amyrlin's express is heading full steam to sun and glory.

 

The express is powered by robert jordan love. Doesnt that hurt my fellow haters? The object of your hate is so favoured by the author and her stock will only keep rising.

 

no hope of a comeuppance? no likelihood of bringing her down a notch or two? tsk tsk. AMOL will be glorious. i will be drowning in these forums soon. Tears of bitterness. Oh they are going to be tasty. I shall drink a cup or two to thee.

 

There is no rebuttal to personal preference and opinion.

 

Success doesn't equal likability.

 

This thread is clearly not for people that like Egwene.

[Guest PiotrekS]

almost every single point against egwene has been rebutted to hell and back.

 

all i can say is hate hate hate.

 

keep hating because the amyrlin's express is heading full steam to sun and glory.

 

The express is powered by robert jordan love. Doesnt that hurt my fellow haters? The object of your hate is so favoured by the author and her stock will only keep rising.

 

no hope of a comeuppance? no likelihood of bringing her down a notch or two? tsk tsk. AMOL will be glorious. i will be drowning in these forums soon. Tears of bitterness. Oh they are going to be tasty. I shall drink a cup or two to thee.

Nice

 

Good to see you acknowledge some of the arguments "from the other side" though - i.e. that Egwene gets "preferential treatment" from the author as opposed to other characters.

[Kahsm]

Been away for a bit, so I have a bit of catching up to do. I'll keep my responses short and sweet.

 

The one incident that disappointed me the most about Egwene was her shaming of Siuan after the Seanchan attack. It's a big step backward in leadership from the learning progress she had made in Salidar and as a captive of Elaida. She views it as a choice to place leadership duty over friendship, which I respect and agree with for someone in her position. However, I disagree with her judgment; it's bad leadership, and more an instance of putting pride over both duty and friendship.

 

This is a hate thread. While I wouldn't usually nit pick like this, there are a few around here who would take this to legitimize their irrational hate. And while your reason to be disappointed at that particular moment is quite justified given your obvious perspective of the event. Maybe clarify your actual level of hate? I doubt you hate based on 1 thing "disappointing" you.

 

So I've figured out this Egwene hate thing.

 

Everyone actually has really high expectations of Egwene because she's such a strong character. What we see on the forums isn't actually hate for her, it's frustration due to the perception that she isn't living up to her potential.

 

That's right. Everyone, deep down, loves Egwene.

 

I think you were being tongue and cheek, but agreed. Arguments about Egwene always come down to what she "should have done" or "should have said" differently, and it's always based on some insane Utopian idealism that would be completely unrealistic. Oh, and at the same time they say she's too good at everything. As if instantly changing the WT into some Utopian, selfless organization would do anything but inflame that other 'critique'.

 

Forget everything..she is the head of the most sexist arrogant organization in Randland and trying to keep them still on top. Is anything else needed to hate her?

 

Yes.

 

Hahahaha, well said!I can't stand her. She remind me of some feminist nazi-type leader

 

So the woman to stop the practice of gathering up and gentling men is the one you compare to a Nazi? Mmhmm. Having trouble squaring that circle... Another entry into the "hyperbolic, insane and baseless **** people have said about Egwene" database.

 

Egwene can grind my gears anytime, if you know what I mean.

 

Hell yeah!

 

I think that "Egwene controversy" on the forums is caused to some extent by the lack of any balancing out of her "awesomness" in the books. Every other character has some major drawbacks, gets criticized or is shown in a way which prompts the reader to question them (e.g. when Rand destroys Natrim's Barrow - wow, he's powerful and smart, but OMG what is he doing?!It's evil!)

 

In Egwene's case, I get the impression her story is told specifically in order to create a particular "image" of Egwene in the eyes of the reader - great Amyrlin. We're not shown her "as she is" (in an imagined world of WOT, I'm aware of that), with some good actions and some bad actions and we - the readers - are not allowed by the author to make up our own minds about Egwene. Her arc reads as though it was written by the White Tower's PR department.

 

I think all these discussions come from the unbalanced way she is portrayed in the books - if somebody does not "buy" her pure and unlimited awesomness, then the only place to express this frustration is the forum, because in the books you can find just another praise of Egwene...and another...and another.

 

It changed a little in ToM though, and, what's interesting, a few Egwene's fans have criticized ToM because in their eyes the portrayal of her character has strayed from the shining path from TGS. In my eyes, it was a relief and possibly the best Brandon has done to this character, making her a little more believable.

 

Another thing is inconsistency in Egwene's narration throughout the series. In the first few books, she is one of important characters (on par with Nynaeve, Elayne, Moiraine) while the Dragon is clearly the central piece of the story. Further on, Egwene get elevated to a more important place, culminating in TGS where the whole strory shows her and Rand as two equally important elements. Even now the "confrontation between Rand and Egwene" in the AMoL is discussed more than Rand's confrontation with the DO! It seems as though RJ realised halfway through that Egwene should have more important role to play and suddenly "boosted" her up to her current level - but her previous history does not justify it! There is no "in-story" reason to believe Egwene is as essential to the Last Battle as the Dragon - but the story has been written for some time as though she is!The best example are parallel plotlines of Rand fighting against his inner darkness and Egwene regaining the Tower in TGS.

 

Just my two cents. To conclude, there are lots of the characters in WOT I dislike more than Egwene, but only Egwene is the character where my feelings go "against the story" so to speak, which causes me to feel disconnected and lessens my enjoyment of the books a little (I still enjoy them very much).

 

Different characters feature more or less in different books. Rand doesn't even feature much in some books in the middle of the series. Egwene is written as one of those over achiever girls who works extremely hard, holds down two jobs, wins leadership awards all through high school and university, graduates as valedictorian, gets into a good school, then is hired into a good job. Maybe you dislike success, but they worked hard to get there. Nynaeve is the one who stubbornly refuses Aes Sedai teaching and gives up on herself too easily, maybe you find that endearing, I find it childish. In ToM, Egwene has done what Egwene would do given her childhood sweetheart who may be dangerously insane just told her he wanted to do something crazy and for no reason.

 

To conclude, a legendary Amyrlin isn't going to be a mundane person. And the White Tower PR department wouldn't write themselves to look like fools, they'd write it as if they went along with her every step, not that she made them look like fools, children, or cowards. So that also makes no sense.

 

I'm having some serious rage about this.

 

Normaly if a character is iritating i can deal. Irritating can be apart of the characters personality. But this... my jimmys have seriously been ruffled by this character.

 

Most of the time i don't really care that much about her, she is a okay chacter except at these points where she really gets on my flaming nerves

 

1. In part 3 DR: Egwene shows her real potential of being a annoying chit. "Nyneave is older and wiser then you listen and do what she says you stupid woman. You deserved that massive slap Elayne gave you!"

 

2. The way she treated Mat after he RESCUED HER FROM CERTAIN BECOMING A DARKFRIEND!!! after she KNEW he was coming all that way to help from her dreams, what dose she do? Pushes him around with OP. I can exuse Nyneave and Elayne for this because they come up with ligitamite appologys.

 

3. Trying to unite all female chanelers under the white tower. Right now here is the thing, that is not so bad until you manipulate the blood and ash out of them and trying to control them. She must be mad and/or drunk with power.

 

4. The way she subdugated Gawen and Nyneave. Nyneave is older and wiser then you, more powerfull in the OP she dosn't deserve to humiliated like that, no matter how irritating she might be by herself. (If she tugs that braid one more time i sware I'll scream). You teated him like dirt, untill he actualy saved your life, then best you can do is make him warder under your twisted power hungry mind set. That is not how the warder bond is suposed to work!

 

Well i'm glad thats out, mostly she isn't a bad character it's just these 4 things that really grind be gears.

 

1. Not entirely sure what you mean here.

2. Egwene was going to be 13x13ed?

3. Are you referring to the bind them with ribbon quote that Egwene haters use as proof of something it doesn't mean? You realize that countries have international treaties which bind them together, cause both countries to sacrifice 'sovereignty' but result it better situations for both places? That's what she means. Hence ribbon, something nice, not chains or iron fists which represent enslavement and military might.

4. Egwene is the Amyrlin and Nynaeve is an Aes Sedai. OP power means nothing before that. Also, Nyneave is not that much older, and hardly any more experienced, they left the two rivers at the same time. I highly doubt you differ to everyone who's a couple years older than you... so why on earth would this standard apply to Egwene? Gawyn was not bonded by force, so complain about Rj/Sanderson's relationship writing if you want, this has nothing to do with Egwene in particular.

 

I guess the only beef I have with her is one I have with all the White Tower. They use everyone and thing as a tool to serve them. They live outside of the world and act as if the world should be grateful that they exist and to serve them.

 

Sounds to me like you believe the children stories that tied Rand up in knots for about 10 books, until he realized he should have trusted them (some of them) more.

 

One of the reasons I despise Egwene like many others have said is she gets away with everything. Nyneave and Cadsuane are there to tell Rand he's an idiot until TOM but when people disagree with Egwene, they obviously are idiots. Now Egwene fans may argue she got a little comeupance when she apologized to the WO for sneaking into T'A'R but she never apologized to Nyneave and she gets a high from bullying Nyneave. The WT assault is another thing she gets pissed at Siuan for rescue, and I do admit Gawyn did it for personal reasons. Suian and Bryne knew better I'm sure, but Egwene was extremely upset at the rescue and never admits even to herself that they did the right thing. There are in general too many things to list.

Rand at least has inner monologues where he criticizes himself, but Egwene has no self criticism

 

Please point me to where she has bullied Nynaeve with no other purpose than to bully her.

 

Her plan was clearly working until Siuan's attack ruined it. How do you know she did the right thing? Have you been to the mirror world where the attack did not take place yet?

 

And yes, Rand did whine a lot internally when he (by self-admission) was losing the DO and being all dark and brooding. We haven't seen his perspective since enlightenment, but he seems much more confident in his actions. Rand also screwed up a lot, so yeah... I mean he's the head of the Black Tower, is that how the WT should be run, avoidance?

 

Here's my c&p, from one of the many times I have written up why I don't like this character.

 

I will say that more annoying than any of the reasons I list is her real-world partisans, who mostly seem unable to come up with any arguments in her favor that don't sooner or later degenerate into, "You're a sexist, or you'd like her!" or "You're just an Rand fanboy, or you'd like her!"

 

For those who don't understand why many feel Egwene is so awful, I'll offer this little primer.

 

First, let me start by saying that I believe that Egwene is being written this way very intentionally. I am aware of the fact that RJ was frequently criticized for being unable to write strong female characters that didn't come across as bitches. But I think the growth we have seen in some of the female characters (notably Nynaeve, Cadsuane and Min) is proof that he could write strong female characters that aren't bitches. Or at least, proof that Sanderson can.

 

So if Egwene is being written as a cluesless, arrogant witch (and she is) it is intentional. There will be a plot justification for it. I favor the Halima compulsion explanation myself, but it may turn out to be something else.

 

Now, as to the ways in which Egwene is awful.

 

1. She opposes Rand instinctively, with no plan of her own. It's fine to be freaked by the idea of breaking the seals. It is not fine to simply attempt to stonewall while making no attempt to come up with a better plan, and devoting the resources (e.g., the Browns) who could have helped come up with a better plan to White Tower politics instead.

 

2. She spends time and effort trying to ensure that the White Tower will control all of the female channelers, post-Last Battle. Her little scheme with the Wise Ones and Windfinders might not be a bad idea. But if the breaking the seals is the WOT equivilent of nuclear war, as some claim, than what Egwene is doing is the equivilent of plotting to ensure that that nuclear war benefits her political party in the resulting redistricting. Outrageous.

 

3. We can see into her head, and what we see is ugly. I find the speculation about Egwene's motivations and attitudes fruitful only when we don't have direct knowledge of what she is thinking. We have Egwene POVs that give us that direct knowledge in a number of cases. Egwene doesn't think to herself, "If only Rand would EXPLAIN why he thinks he needs to break the seals." She just thinks she knows better. She doesn't think to herself, "You know, Nynaeve has spent a lot of time with Rand lately, and I trust her judgment. Maybe I should follow up later on why she isn't sure Rand's idea is crazy. But I'll oppose that plan until I have a chance to talk to her about it and consider her answers." She just thinks that Nynaeve has been spending to much time with Rand and is caught in the Ta'Veren effect. She doesn't think to herself, "I love and respect Gawyn, I just wish he would realize the difficult position I am in as a young, new Amyrlin, and defer to me in public." Instead, even her thoughts indicate that she expects not just public deference of the sort she demands of Nynaeve, but actual submission to her will.

 

4. She has a completely unfounded belief in the superiority of her own judgment, and the necessity for all to defer to her. I realize that all Aes Sedai do, but it is far worse in her case. Someone like Cadsuane might be able to say to herself, with some justification, “You know, self, I’ve seen a lot in the last 400 years. My experience is superior to that of virtually anyone alive.” A Brown (take your pick) might be able to say to herself, with some justification, “I have spent decades studying this question. My knowledge of the subject is superior to that of virtually anyone else.” Egwene is an unschooled, 19-year-old who came to her position mostly by dint of being the candidate least objectionable to all of the various factions. She has neither the experience nor the knowledge to justify her belief that she always knows best. It would be fine if she recognized this, but thought she needed to put on a brave face due to her position. But there is nothing in her POVs that suggests that she does. She just thinks she knows best.

 

5. Rand isn’t a king. I have seen a number of comments to the effect of, “No leader should be unquestioned.” Interestingly, this apparently applies only when Rand is the leader in question. Questioning our teenage Amyrlin remains verboten. But regardless, Rand is not a “leader.” He is the Dragon Reborn, the living fulfillment of the Prophecies, the Messiah come to save the World. All major characters accept this. He is the only hope of victory over the Shadow. He has been given special gifts to help him do this. And yet Egwene thinks he should, “Submit to the guidance of the Tower?” If there is a Second Coming of Jesus, will he be expected to “submit himself to the guidance” of Pat Robertson?

 

6. She pits herself against the pattern. She believes that anyone opposing her must be swept up in Ta’veren effects. Because of course no one behaving rationally could possibly oppose HER! But lets say she’s right, and Nynaeve (for example) has been swept up in Rand’s ta’veren influence. What exactly is that influence? It is the freakin’ Pattern , the motive force of the Universe, bending itself around someone in order to accomplish something that must happen. So not only is Egwene’s judgment superior to that of the Dragon Reborn, the Aiel Wise One, all the centuries-old Aes Sedai, her friends, and every other human on the planet. Her judgment is superior to the working of the Universe itself. Okey-dokie.

 

7. She’s a good, old-fashioned sexist. No other way to put it, really. Again, we don’t need to simply divine this from her actions (although we certainly could.) We see her thoughts. And she continues to hold female chauvinist beliefs. It is instructive, I think, to see how much she objects to women being bonded to male channelers. Not Aes Sedai, that’s not how she thinks of them. WOMEN. But women bonding men is just fine. It's interesting, I think, that the female Foresaken don't have the same sorts of sexist thoughts in their POVs that Egwene does in hers. In this regard, at least, she is a worse person than Lanfear or Graendel.

 

8. Her actions toward Perrin in TAR. Are not just arrogant, they’re potentially deadly. Trying to tie him up in the middle of a battle? And don’t tell me, “Oh, she was just doing that while she pushed him out of the Dream.” In the first place, we haven’t seen anything to suggest that immobilizing someone is necessary or even helpful in pushing them out of the Dream. In the second place, she says something like, “I’m sorry Perrin, I’ll be back for you.” She was clearly planning on leaving him in place while she ran off and fought the battle.

 

9. No respect for the man she supposedly loves. A.) No apology for Gawyn about the Blackknives. No thanks for saving her life. Bitch move. She knows she was wrong, but still won’t admit it. B.) No personal note asking him to return when he leaves (after she tells him she doesn’t need him). She has no official right to control his actions. He is not a Warder, or serving in her army. She has only a personal tie. And yet the note is sent by a flunky she knows dislikes men in general and Gawyn in particular. Bitch. C.) Even after events have proven that Gawyn’s judgment isn’t bad and has in at least one instance been correct while hers has been wrong, she is dismissive of his warning about Perrin and the armies. Fool.

 

10. No help for the Borderlands. Can’t allow that to get in the way of her gathering armies to herself. Because you know, she might need those armies if Rand, “Forces her hand.”

Egwene is awful. Simply awful. If there were justice in WOT world, she would be stilled and executed. But there is no justice in WOT world, or in modern publishing, so she’ll probably not even suffer any public embarrassment.

 

So you assume the character was purposefully written the way you perceive her? Well lots of people like her, and wouldn't call her those things, yet you're clearly implying we read it wrong and you read it right. Anyway, a quick note on each point. In general they range form 'a matter of opinion' to 'wrong'.

 

1. Can't make a plan without knowing what Rand knows, which he chose not to tell her, no point unless you can stop him, and it's exactly what someone in her position would do. Moir was worried over seeing broken seals, I guess she was stupid back in the tEotW for not knowing some day in the future Rand would want to break them. I mean if we're holding people to ridiculous standards, why not go all out!

 

2. First, 'control' is too much, read above about 'binding with ribbon'. Also, Rand building universities for after the LB is stupid I guess. Anyone planning anything past the last battle is 'outrageous'? Lives will go on, and order will need to be preserved. Even Rand clearly thinks about that, otherwise he would just Hawking up the whole world and march to SG.

 

3. This is more personal taste so I'll let you have it, but again, Gawyn is not bound by force, take it up on a 'relationships' thread.

 

4. Maybe she actually thinks she's qualified..? How dare she! Not like she's made a handful of progressive changes in spite of the entire hall thinking they would puppet her every move... oh wait..

 

5. The quote says "surrender" to the tower's Guidance, not submit, she was asking if Rand had given up being on his own. It was an innocent question you clearly misunderstood since you used the wrong word in your quote. She preceded it by asking if he was there to petition her (or surrender to tower guidance) and he did petition her. So this is baseless. Also, it's tough to be Chief of Chiefs if Rand is not a 'leader', pretty sure it's in the job description. Doesn't mean he's not also more than that, but you worded it funny.

 

6. So you're one of those people that believe the Dragon cannot make a wrong decision? Do I have to remind you that RJ confirmed that the Dragon has been turned to the shadow and forced a Draw between the Light and Shadow in previous turnings? Would Egwene be wrong if he showed up saying "I'm going to join the dark one" and she opposed that?

 

7. Or her revulsion could be based on the idea that the men are insane. Yes the taint is clear, but the insanity is still there for many of them. But maybe she is sexist, why can't that be her endearing flaw people always look for? Mat is also sexist, people love him. (calm down randsc, I didn't call or imply the poster sexist).

 

8. I'll accept your confusion here, because lots of poeople had it, but Sanderson explained Egwene's actions regarding Perrin:

Q: Much has been made of Egwene’s thought to tie up Perrin in the midst of a battle that could have brought about his death if he had not been able to stop her. Such apparent negligence is shocking considering her knowledge of how quickly things can happen in Tel'aran'rhiod. Can you Explain Egwene’s thought process? Did she intend to leave Perrin there while she finished the battle?

A: (not verbatim) Egwene thought she was doing the right thing. She was acting as the Amyrlin and trying to make sure that he would be safe and out of the way of danger. She was not going to tie him up and leave him, she would have brought him somewhere safe away from the danger of the fight and left him there until it was over.

Voila, though I'm sure you'll still claim she was somehow being malicious or sneaky or mean. The "thought she was" part obviously refers to her not knowing he could take care of himself. But why would she assume he could. According to the author her intentions were pure.

 

9. I'll let you have this one because I think it's a perspective thing again. My relationship is different from yours IRL and so the comparisons are different. But I refer you back to how you assume your interpretation is the only right one, and how silly that is.

 

10. Again we're back to Rand being infallible. Whether breaking the seals seems like the best idea to us, the reader, or not... clearly Egwene doesn't see it yet. Also, she has asked for eyes and ears reports, so there's not nothing happening, blah blah blah whole thread on this alone.

[XXX]

Here's my c&p, from one of the many times I have written up why I don't like this character.

 

I will say that more annoying than any of the reasons I list is her real-world partisans, who mostly seem unable to come up with any arguments in her favor that don't sooner or later degenerate into, "You're a sexist, or you'd like her!" or "You're just an Rand fanboy, or you'd like her!"

 

For those who don't understand why many feel Egwene is so awful, I'll offer this little primer.

 

First, let me start by saying that I believe that Egwene is being written this way very intentionally. I am aware of the fact that RJ was frequently criticized for being unable to write strong female characters that didn't come across as bitches. But I think the growth we have seen in some of the female characters (notably Nynaeve, Cadsuane and Min) is proof that he could write strong female characters that aren't bitches. Or at least, proof that Sanderson can.

 

So if Egwene is being written as a cluesless, arrogant witch (and she is) it is intentional. There will be a plot justification for it. I favor the Halima compulsion explanation myself, but it may turn out to be something else.

 

Now, as to the ways in which Egwene is awful.

 

1. She opposes Rand instinctively, with no plan of her own. It's fine to be freaked by the idea of breaking the seals. It is not fine to simply attempt to stonewall while making no attempt to come up with a better plan, and devoting the resources (e.g., the Browns) who could have helped come up with a better plan to White Tower politics instead.

 

2. She spends time and effort trying to ensure that the White Tower will control all of the female channelers, post-Last Battle. Her little scheme with the Wise Ones and Windfinders might not be a bad idea. But if the breaking the seals is the WOT equivilent of nuclear war, as some claim, than what Egwene is doing is the equivilent of plotting to ensure that that nuclear war benefits her political party in the resulting redistricting. Outrageous.

 

3. We can see into her head, and what we see is ugly. I find the speculation about Egwene's motivations and attitudes fruitful only when we don't have direct knowledge of what she is thinking. We have Egwene POVs that give us that direct knowledge in a number of cases. Egwene doesn't think to herself, "If only Rand would EXPLAIN why he thinks he needs to break the seals." She just thinks she knows better. She doesn't think to herself, "You know, Nynaeve has spent a lot of time with Rand lately, and I trust her judgment. Maybe I should follow up later on why she isn't sure Rand's idea is crazy. But I'll oppose that plan until I have a chance to talk to her about it and consider her answers." She just thinks that Nynaeve has been spending to much time with Rand and is caught in the Ta'Veren effect. She doesn't think to herself, "I love and respect Gawyn, I just wish he would realize the difficult position I am in as a young, new Amyrlin, and defer to me in public." Instead, even her thoughts indicate that she expects not just public deference of the sort she demands of Nynaeve, but actual submission to her will.

 

4. She has a completely unfounded belief in the superiority of her own judgment, and the necessity for all to defer to her. I realize that all Aes Sedai do, but it is far worse in her case. Someone like Cadsuane might be able to say to herself, with some justification, “You know, self, I’ve seen a lot in the last 400 years. My experience is superior to that of virtually anyone alive.” A Brown (take your pick) might be able to say to herself, with some justification, “I have spent decades studying this question. My knowledge of the subject is superior to that of virtually anyone else.” Egwene is an unschooled, 19-year-old who came to her position mostly by dint of being the candidate least objectionable to all of the various factions. She has neither the experience nor the knowledge to justify her belief that she always knows best. It would be fine if she recognized this, but thought she needed to put on a brave face due to her position. But there is nothing in her POVs that suggests that she does. She just thinks she knows best.

 

5. Rand isn’t a king. I have seen a number of comments to the effect of, “No leader should be unquestioned.” Interestingly, this apparently applies only when Rand is the leader in question. Questioning our teenage Amyrlin remains verboten. But regardless, Rand is not a “leader.” He is the Dragon Reborn, the living fulfillment of the Prophecies, the Messiah come to save the World. All major characters accept this. He is the only hope of victory over the Shadow. He has been given special gifts to help him do this. And yet Egwene thinks he should, “Submit to the guidance of the Tower?” If there is a Second Coming of Jesus, will he be expected to “submit himself to the guidance” of Pat Robertson?

 

6. She pits herself against the pattern. She believes that anyone opposing her must be swept up in Ta’veren effects. Because of course no one behaving rationally could possibly oppose HER! But lets say she’s right, and Nynaeve (for example) has been swept up in Rand’s ta’veren influence. What exactly is that influence? It is the freakin’ Pattern , the motive force of the Universe, bending itself around someone in order to accomplish something that must happen. So not only is Egwene’s judgment superior to that of the Dragon Reborn, the Aiel Wise One, all the centuries-old Aes Sedai, her friends, and every other human on the planet. Her judgment is superior to the working of the Universe itself. Okey-dokie.

 

7. She’s a good, old-fashioned sexist. No other way to put it, really. Again, we don’t need to simply divine this from her actions (although we certainly could.) We see her thoughts. And she continues to hold female chauvinist beliefs. It is instructive, I think, to see how much she objects to women being bonded to male channelers. Not Aes Sedai, that’s not how she thinks of them. WOMEN. But women bonding men is just fine. It's interesting, I think, that the female Foresaken don't have the same sorts of sexist thoughts in their POVs that Egwene does in hers. In this regard, at least, she is a worse person than Lanfear or Graendel.

 

8. Her actions toward Perrin in TAR. Are not just arrogant, they’re potentially deadly. Trying to tie him up in the middle of a battle? And don’t tell me, “Oh, she was just doing that while she pushed him out of the Dream.” In the first place, we haven’t seen anything to suggest that immobilizing someone is necessary or even helpful in pushing them out of the Dream. In the second place, she says something like, “I’m sorry Perrin, I’ll be back for you.” She was clearly planning on leaving him in place while she ran off and fought the battle.

 

9. No respect for the man she supposedly loves. A.) No apology for Gawyn about the Blackknives. No thanks for saving her life. Bitch move. She knows she was wrong, but still won’t admit it. B.) No personal note asking him to return when he leaves (after she tells him she doesn’t need him). She has no official right to control his actions. He is not a Warder, or serving in her army. She has only a personal tie. And yet the note is sent by a flunky she knows dislikes men in general and Gawyn in particular. Bitch. C.) Even after events have proven that Gawyn’s judgment isn’t bad and has in at least one instance been correct while hers has been wrong, she is dismissive of his warning about Perrin and the armies. Fool.

 

10. No help for the Borderlands. Can’t allow that to get in the way of her gathering armies to herself. Because you know, she might need those armies if Rand, “Forces her hand.”

Egwene is awful. Simply awful. If there were justice in WOT world, she would be stilled and executed. But there is no justice in WOT world, or in modern publishing, so she’ll probably not even suffer any public embarrassment.

 

Superbly put..all true!!

[XXX]

 

 

So the woman to stop the practice of gathering up and gentling men is the one you compare to a Nazi? Mmhmm. Having trouble squaring that circle... Another entry into the "hyperbolic, insane and baseless **** people have said about Egwene" database.

 

 

She "stopped" the practice..what exactly could she have done otherwise, tried to attack the BT?. We saw how well that worked out for her predecessor.

[Kahsm]

 

 

So the woman to stop the practice of gathering up and gentling men is the one you compare to a Nazi? Mmhmm. Having trouble squaring that circle... Another entry into the "hyperbolic, insane and baseless **** people have said about Egwene" database.

 

 

She "stopped" the practice..what exactly could she have done otherwise, tried to attack the BT?. We saw how well that worked out for her predecessor.

 

That's what Nazi's would have done. I'm not the one who made the silly comparison, don't ask me!

[Durinax]

my main gripes against egwene are:

 

how she treats those who are close to her

1) nynaeve: purposefully allows her to be tortured to the point she nearly dies in her test (far more than any other woman would have to) and she also tortures her when egwene was under the WO's and Nyn nearly spills the beans on her going behind the WO's expressed command she not go into tar without them

 

2) Gawyn: she treats him like a lapdog, she allows him to yap around her from time to time then pushes him to the side without really listening to what he has to say. Even after he presents reasonable evidence for his opinions (bloodknives) then saves her from them I get the feeling she just pushes him to the side and ignores him.

 

how she disregards others opinions as taveren effect (mainly nyn talking to her, although there is another one)

 

her sexism (especially in regards to the AM bonding AS)

 

her hypocrasy ("I believe that the military organization might be good for her, and remind her that sometimes, obediance overrides initiative." she said that to Suian after Suian recovered her from the tower)

 

also all her prattling about how whats happened to teh Tower is the deepest hurt that she will ever endure bit, that pissed me off after she spent well under a year among AS (is that correct?), she has more right to be dedicated to the Aiel even

[Sleeper]

Here's my c&p, from one of the many times I have written up why I don't like this character.

 

I will say that more annoying than any of the reasons I list is her real-world partisans, who mostly seem unable to come up with any arguments in her favor that don't sooner or later degenerate into, "You're a sexist, or you'd like her!" or "You're just an Rand fanboy, or you'd like her!"

 

For those who don't understand why many feel Egwene is so awful, I'll offer this little primer.

 

First, let me start by saying that I believe that Egwene is being written this way very intentionally. I am aware of the fact that RJ was frequently criticized for being unable to write strong female characters that didn't come across as bitches. But I think the growth we have seen in some of the female characters (notably Nynaeve, Cadsuane and Min) is proof that he could write strong female characters that aren't bitches. Or at least, proof that Sanderson can.

 

So if Egwene is being written as a cluesless, arrogant witch (and she is) it is intentional. There will be a plot justification for it. I favor the Halima compulsion explanation myself, but it may turn out to be something else.

 

Now, as to the ways in which Egwene is awful.

 

1. She opposes Rand instinctively, with no plan of her own. It's fine to be freaked by the idea of breaking the seals. It is not fine to simply attempt to stonewall while making no attempt to come up with a better plan, and devoting the resources (e.g., the Browns) who could have helped come up with a better plan to White Tower politics instead.

 

2. She spends time and effort trying to ensure that the White Tower will control all of the female channelers, post-Last Battle. Her little scheme with the Wise Ones and Windfinders might not be a bad idea. But if the breaking the seals is the WOT equivilent of nuclear war, as some claim, than what Egwene is doing is the equivilent of plotting to ensure that that nuclear war benefits her political party in the resulting redistricting. Outrageous.

 

3. We can see into her head, and what we see is ugly. I find the speculation about Egwene's motivations and attitudes fruitful only when we don't have direct knowledge of what she is thinking. We have Egwene POVs that give us that direct knowledge in a number of cases. Egwene doesn't think to herself, "If only Rand would EXPLAIN why he thinks he needs to break the seals." She just thinks she knows better. She doesn't think to herself, "You know, Nynaeve has spent a lot of time with Rand lately, and I trust her judgment. Maybe I should follow up later on why she isn't sure Rand's idea is crazy. But I'll oppose that plan until I have a chance to talk to her about it and consider her answers." She just thinks that Nynaeve has been spending to much time with Rand and is caught in the Ta'Veren effect. She doesn't think to herself, "I love and respect Gawyn, I just wish he would realize the difficult position I am in as a young, new Amyrlin, and defer to me in public." Instead, even her thoughts indicate that she expects not just public deference of the sort she demands of Nynaeve, but actual submission to her will.

 

4. She has a completely unfounded belief in the superiority of her own judgment, and the necessity for all to defer to her. I realize that all Aes Sedai do, but it is far worse in her case. Someone like Cadsuane might be able to say to herself, with some justification, “You know, self, I’ve seen a lot in the last 400 years. My experience is superior to that of virtually anyone alive.” A Brown (take your pick) might be able to say to herself, with some justification, “I have spent decades studying this question. My knowledge of the subject is superior to that of virtually anyone else.” Egwene is an unschooled, 19-year-old who came to her position mostly by dint of being the candidate least objectionable to all of the various factions. She has neither the experience nor the knowledge to justify her belief that she always knows best. It would be fine if she recognized this, but thought she needed to put on a brave face due to her position. But there is nothing in her POVs that suggests that she does. She just thinks she knows best.

 

5. Rand isn’t a king. I have seen a number of comments to the effect of, “No leader should be unquestioned.” Interestingly, this apparently applies only when Rand is the leader in question. Questioning our teenage Amyrlin remains verboten. But regardless, Rand is not a “leader.” He is the Dragon Reborn, the living fulfillment of the Prophecies, the Messiah come to save the World. All major characters accept this. He is the only hope of victory over the Shadow. He has been given special gifts to help him do this. And yet Egwene thinks he should, “Submit to the guidance of the Tower?” If there is a Second Coming of Jesus, will he be expected to “submit himself to the guidance” of Pat Robertson?

 

6. She pits herself against the pattern. She believes that anyone opposing her must be swept up in Ta’veren effects. Because of course no one behaving rationally could possibly oppose HER! But lets say she’s right, and Nynaeve (for example) has been swept up in Rand’s ta’veren influence. What exactly is that influence? It is the freakin’ Pattern , the motive force of the Universe, bending itself around someone in order to accomplish something that must happen. So not only is Egwene’s judgment superior to that of the Dragon Reborn, the Aiel Wise One, all the centuries-old Aes Sedai, her friends, and every other human on the planet. Her judgment is superior to the working of the Universe itself. Okey-dokie.

 

7. She’s a good, old-fashioned sexist. No other way to put it, really. Again, we don’t need to simply divine this from her actions (although we certainly could.) We see her thoughts. And she continues to hold female chauvinist beliefs. It is instructive, I think, to see how much she objects to women being bonded to male channelers. Not Aes Sedai, that’s not how she thinks of them. WOMEN. But women bonding men is just fine. It's interesting, I think, that the female Foresaken don't have the same sorts of sexist thoughts in their POVs that Egwene does in hers. In this regard, at least, she is a worse person than Lanfear or Graendel.

 

8. Her actions toward Perrin in TAR. Are not just arrogant, they’re potentially deadly. Trying to tie him up in the middle of a battle? And don’t tell me, “Oh, she was just doing that while she pushed him out of the Dream.” In the first place, we haven’t seen anything to suggest that immobilizing someone is necessary or even helpful in pushing them out of the Dream. In the second place, she says something like, “I’m sorry Perrin, I’ll be back for you.” She was clearly planning on leaving him in place while she ran off and fought the battle.

 

9. No respect for the man she supposedly loves. A.) No apology for Gawyn about the Blackknives. No thanks for saving her life. Bitch move. She knows she was wrong, but still won’t admit it. B.) No personal note asking him to return when he leaves (after she tells him she doesn’t need him). She has no official right to control his actions. He is not a Warder, or serving in her army. She has only a personal tie. And yet the note is sent by a flunky she knows dislikes men in general and Gawyn in particular. Bitch. C.) Even after events have proven that Gawyn’s judgment isn’t bad and has in at least one instance been correct while hers has been wrong, she is dismissive of his warning about Perrin and the armies. Fool.

 

10. No help for the Borderlands. Can’t allow that to get in the way of her gathering armies to herself. Because you know, she might need those armies if Rand, “Forces her hand.”

Egwene is awful. Simply awful. If there were justice in WOT world, she would be stilled and executed. But there is no justice in WOT world, or in modern publishing, so she’ll probably not even suffer any public embarrassment.

 

Wow, I wasn't going to get myself dragged into this discussion, but... wow.

 

Very well said, sir. Sums up my opinion perfectly.