would you feel the same if genders were reversed?

[Mystica]

So, I'm curious. For years people have voiced their favor or anti-favor for characters. From what I've been able to deduct, there seems to be an overwhelming tendency to judge the females in the books much harsher than the males. The amount of 'hate' threads going up is quite interesting. Especially in an age where we all pretend to stand for equality. It shows a rather interesting view of our 'real' opinions, burried underneath the politically correct facades.

 

A few examples:

 

Rand acts like a spoiled brat from the moment Moiraine takes him out of the Two Rivers, in all aspects, but he's considered a victom of his circumstance. It's not 'his' fault. He's being pushed, pulled, shoved and prodded in all directions and trying to cope with it all in a very short period of time. He is stubborn like a mule when it comes to taking advise, afraid of being used like a tool. At the same time he has no problems using everyone else like tools, because.... well, it's him, so that's ok. Hypocritical much? He gathers the support of the Aiel on nothing else but the fact that he is prophecised and what does he do? Threats them like fodder at every opportunity, throw away gloves to pick up and discard at will, he spends not a moment thought on their future and how he's going to save the remnant. He doesn't care. Not once in the 13 books has he indicated that he cares about the future of a people that have thrown their support behind him and THANKS TO whom he was able to do what he did afterwars. Without them, he'd never have taken Cairhien, Tear, etc. Hell, without him he'd never have taken Callandor. And still he threats them like throwaway garbage. He is doing to them exactly what he fears the White Tower would do to him. But hang on, that's Dart Rand. It's not his fault! He's being corrupted by the Dark Side. Well boohoo... he's the Dragon Reborn, isn't he? Isn't he supposed to be above that? If he's so superior to all other humans, then he shouldn't have been that easily corrupted in the first place. No, what made him succeptible was his stubborness, his already ingrained WILL to oppose Aes Sedai and not go in to cooperation with them. He had already decided they were evil, eventhough the only one he'd ever met was one who saved his father and his whole town to boot! But no, he choose to believe the tails from his childhood. Aes Sedai are evil... don't trust them..... any of them. And so he opened the path for the Dark Side to manipulate this fear in him to their own use. Making it feel as though it was his choice all along and having an easy time at it because he hàd that fear already! But hang on.... he did change! VOG proves it. Yeah, and how many thousands are dead because he needed time to learn? How would he have gotten to that point if Cadsuane hadn't made the 'mistake' of confronting him with his father? Look, he's the Dragon Reborn!! He's the savior!! Get off it. He made mistakes, so what? Everyone does!

 

Egwene adopts a learning mentality from the moment she leaves the Two Rivers, subjects herself to the low status of student, novice, WO apprentice, because she acknowledges she has much to learn ànd shows a desire to learn from those wiser and more experienced than she. Showing a rare level of humility and willingness to submit in order to grow. Her path takes her on a journey that makes her the most powerful woman in the world and bam: she's pure evil, arrogant, manipulative, scheming, etc. Nevermind the road she took to get where she is and the hurdles she's taking every day still in order to 'do the best she can'. Nevermind the battles she had to overcome along the way. Nevermind that she suffered more than Elayne and Nynaeve put together, first as a damane, then at the hands of Elaida. Nono. She's a pregnant dog that should be put to sleep.

 

Perrin effectively submits the entire region of the Two Rivers to the Seanchan in order to see his very personal goal reached: the freedom of his wife. From the books, we literally learn that he would work with the Dark One himself to see her back safely. He would have literally sacrificed the entire world to that end. And only àfter he gets her back, only thén does he start to feel the pangs of guilt over his intentions and the things he was willing to do. Much good it would have done anyone, that guilt feeling after the fact, if he had indeed been offered support by the Dark forces instead of the Seanchan. But this we should understand, of course. The poor man was beside himself with worry over his wife. You can't blame him for loving someone! Nevermind that it's a selfish love and the rest of the world can go to Shayol Ghul. Lanfear, anyone? Oh wait, but he's taveren. So it's ok. The Pattern would set things right again. The Pattern. Not him. But nevermind that.

 

Cadsuane has been operating for hundreds of years and has earned a status of legend through all the work she's done over those centuries. She fought numerous battles against the Blight, stopped wars between countries, reconciled kings and queens, lost several warders in her fight against the Shadow and with each loss gained a pain the likes of which none of us can even come close to imagine. But she's Aes Sedai. Therefore, she's evil! Nevermind that she earned that status she's drawing from today. Nevermind the hundreds of years of experience she's built up. Nevermind the thousands of sacrifices she's made in that time. Nono, it's totally unrealistic for such a person to think that a youth of 20 years old might actually need her advise and counsil. It's arrogant beyond belief to think she has anything to offer that might help his goal to defeat the Dark One. Let's ignore all the experience she has and just label her as a manipulative, self-important, arrogant idiot. Because..... she makes mistakes!!

 

Logain claims himself to be the Dragon Reborn. Is captured and then gentled. He then turns around and falsly accuses the Red Aes Sedai of having seduced him in to claiming to the Dragon Reborn, because he wants some revenge. Nevermind that he didn't check the prophecies to verify whether or not he actually wàs the Dragon Reborn. Nevermind that he had no problem creating civil war in order to get his revenge. Nevermind the hundreds of deaths he's caused by claiming to be something he was not. The poor lad was rightly mistaken the signs. He couldn't have known he wasn't the Dragon. And that he wanted revenge against the Reds was only natural. They'd taken away his life! Of course his life is more important than those of the many that lay in their grave now because of him. Or the families that have to live without those members that got themselves killed because of him. He is all that matters, after all. Poor poor Logain. But wait.... he is redeeming himself. He's fighting the good fight now! He's much bettr than Taim! He's fighting on the side of the Light for real! He just made a mistake. That's all. Have you never made a mistake? He's only human after all!!

 

 

 

 

I wonder how you all would feel if the genders of the characters were reversed. Not that I ever expect an honest answer to that, but it would be interesting to see.

[UncleButcher1980]

Rand, I like him, would put him near the top of my favourite characters, I guess I would feel the same if he was a woman...can't really answer that one.

 

I think I would still like and admire Egwene even if she was a dude. I think you sum her up quite well in your first two sentences.

 

Perrin....well let's just say the only interesting thing about Perrin is his awesome wife.

 

Cadsuane, well I respect and admire what she does, not sure if like would be the right word, but yeah, she's cool. Would I feel the same if she was a guy? Eh well, I actually know a guy not too dissimilar from her. He's ok.

 

Logain..Meh. If he was a female? Meh.

[Leyrann]

So I'm not the only one who likes Egwene...

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i think you're looking for more insight than you can expect, given the situation.

[Ala Rubra]

Ah, another sexism thread. Surely we have had enough of these?

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

if we stopped having threads we've had enough of, there would be no more threads.

[Kahsm]

I agree pretty much 100% with every character assessment you have there. Yay! Particularly with Cadsuane and Logain.

 

Logain, I think his VoG, from the reader's perspective, was the tGH scene where he's wandering the tower gentled and bumps into the super girls. He's all sad and says, "You're just worried I'll find a knife.... for myself girl, for myself." And you pity him, and then he goes on to follow Rand seemingly loyally. So all his past crimes and personal ambition at the cost of innocent lives is forgotten.

 

I guess I'll try to answer your actual question. When I started thinking about it, it's difficult. At the start of the books females and males are written quite differently. So if you just switched the genders and had them doing and saying the exact same things, I think I would have very different views.

 

I mean if male Egwene and Nynaeve go around calling all females wool heads, and doubting their capabilities to think properly, I don't think I would buy into that at all. They'd just come across to me like bigger jerks than fem Eggs and Nyn did when they do it to males.

 

The one I might have a different opinion of would be Cadsaune. She tries to be a tough motherly figure, and if she was a guy, I might criticize her for being less companion-like. a Male Cadsuane, I would feel, should be less motherly and more Gandalf-ly, and so I'd probably dislike 'him'.

 

If _all_ genders switched at the same time, I might have more sympathy for Logain, because Men hunting down women and sucking the life out of her would have a bit of a real-life soar spot to it. But if it were just female Logain and female Aes Sedai, I likely wouldn't change because it wouldn't have that stigma to it. And either way 'she' would still have caused a lot of needless death, so it'd only be a little more pity.

 

Perrin is still selfish.

 

Egwene would be much the same for the reasons you give apply to men as much as women.

 

I think Rand would also come across much the same. Though a women with 3 guys might spark a different reaction, at least when it's first introduced ;)

[David Selig]

Perrin effectively submits the entire region of the Two Rivers to the Seanchan in order to see his very personal goal reached: the freedom of his wife.

I hate to defend Perrin, but I have to say that all he agreed to in his deal with the Seanchan was not to attempt to restore Manetheren, something he had no intention to do anyway and was a pretty dumb idea from the start.

 

From the books, we literally learn that he would work with the Dark One himself to see her back safely. He would have literally sacrificed the entire world to that end. And only àfter he gets her back, only thén does he start to feel the pangs of guilt over his intentions and the things he was willing to do. Much good it would have done anyone, that guilt feeling after the fact, if he had indeed been offered support by the Dark forces instead of the Seanchan. But this we should understand, of course. The poor man was beside himself with worry over his wife. You can't blame him for loving someone! Nevermind that it's a selfish love and the rest of the world can go to Shayol Ghul. Lanfear, anyone? Oh wait, but he's taveren. So it's ok. The Pattern would set things right again. The Pattern. Not him. But nevermind that.

For one thing, intentions are not actions. But still, I don't know who are you arguing against here. I thought pretty much everyone agrees that Perrin's "The whole world can burn for all I care, I have to get Faile back" thoughts were dumb and really annoying.

 

Cadsuane has been operating for hundreds of years and has earned a status of legend through all the work she's done over those centuries. She fought numerous battles against the Blight, stopped wars between countries, reconciled kings and queens, lost several warders in her fight against the Shadow and with each loss gained a pain the likes of which none of us can even come close to imagine. But she's Aes Sedai. Therefore, she's evil! Nevermind that she earned that status she's drawing from today. Nevermind the hundreds of years of experience she's built up. Nevermind the thousands of sacrifices she's made in that time. Nono, it's totally unrealistic for such a person to think that a youth of 20 years old might actually need her advise and counsil. It's arrogant beyond belief to think she has anything to offer that might help his goal to defeat the Dark One. Let's ignore all the experience she has and just label her as a manipulative, self-important, arrogant idiot. Because..... she makes mistakes!!

I don't know about ohers, but I have no problem at all with Cadsuane offering advice and help to the DR. It's the way she does it which is really grating and counter-productive - who cares if he swears, the end of the world is coming, angering the Dragon Reborn for such a ridiculous reason is really petty and dumb. Without Min's viewing, Rand would've never taken her as an advisor. If a man had tried to act this way towards Rand, slapping him, treating him like a not particularly smart 10 year old most of the time, he'd probably have been balefired or at least send away long before Cadsuane was.

 

Egwene adopts a learning mentality from the moment she leaves the Two Rivers, subjects herself to the low status of student, novice, WO apprentice, because she acknowledges she has much to learn ànd shows a desire to learn from those wiser and more experienced than she. Showing a rare level of humility and willingness to submit in order to grow. Her path takes her on a journey that makes her the most powerful woman in the world and bam: she's pure evil, arrogant, manipulative, scheming, etc. Nevermind the road she took to get where she is and the hurdles she's taking every day still in order to 'do the best she can'. Nevermind the battles she had to overcome along the way. Nevermind that she suffered more than Elayne and Nynaeve put together, first as a damane, then at the hands of Elaida. Nono. She's a pregnant dog that should be put to sleep.

So because she suffered a lot, that makes it OK to be arrogant and manipulative, is that your point? And for the record, I think she was an arrogant hypocrite long before she became "the most powerful woman in the world" (actually the second since Tuon has the first spot).

 

Logain I agree with you and I"ve never understood why he's so popular given that he started a big war, caused thousands of deaths and doesn't seem regretful of it at all.

[AshaShan]

Dont kid yourselves. If Rand and Egwene's genders were switched she would be universally hated and he would be regarded as a silly girl-power infomercial. The rampant prejudice of Egwene and her Aes Sedai gets overlooked by most because its quirky and different when its done by women to men rather than the other way around as would usually be the case. Egwene is a more intelligent Kyle Haven to Rand's Althea Vestrit.

 

Logain is every bit as bad as Egwene, penis be damned.

 

Cadsuane is a curmudgonly old traditionalist, intent on preserving the good old days/ways. Shes the old git complaining that women should be seen and not heard.

 

Perrin is a clingy spouse. When has the gender of the clinger ever changed how annoying they seem? The people who hate Min would hate Perrin-as-woman, and the ones who like her would like him.

[sleepinghour]

Dont kid yourselves. If Rand and Egwene's genders were switched she would be universally hated and he would be regarded as a silly girl-power infomercial.

I agree. The hate Egwene gets now would be nothing compared to the hate she'd get as a male character.

 

If you don't believe me, reverse the genders in TSR where Egwene decides to hand Rand over to Elayne. People would have condemned male Egwene for treating his girlfriend like an object to be given away to his best male bud.

 

Or reverse the genders in FoH where Egwene repeatedly attempts to spy on Rand's dreams and is annoyed when she can't, vowing that she'll eventually succeed. People would have called male Egwene a disgusting creep for trying to spy on his ex-girlfriend's dreams.

[AshaShan]

Dont kid yourselves. If Rand and Egwene's genders were switched she would be universally hated and he would be regarded as a silly girl-power infomercial.

I agree. The hate Egwene gets now would be nothing compared to the hate she'd get as a male character.

 

If you don't believe me, reverse the genders in TSR where Egwene decides to hand Rand over to Elayne. People would have condemned male Egwene for treating his girlfriend like an object to be given away to his best male bud.

 

Or reverse the genders in FoH where Egwene repeatedly attempts to spy on Rand's dreams and is annoyed when she can't, vowing that she'll eventually succeed. People would have called male Egwene a disgusting creep for trying to spy on his ex-girlfriend's dreams.

 

Exactly. For that matter try and picture the hate, say, Mattin Stepaneos would get if he kept Min locked in the palace of Illian, held her at knife point, tied her down, had his way with her and then had his guards prevent her from leaving and refused to feed her until she capitulated to his advances. Murderous doesn't begin to cover it. The readers would be calling for his slow and painful death. I know I would be. Yet when Tylin does it... laughs aplenty.

 

IMO, too many people have difficulty seeing sexual predjudice as something that effects anyone other than females, even in a setting where it was men who "ate the forbidden fruit."

[Suttree]

IMO, too many people have difficulty seeing sexual predjudice as something that effects anyone other than females, even in a setting where it was men who "ate the forbidden fruit."

 

Men ate the forbidden fruit? I thought it was Lanfear...

[Guest PiotrekS]

if we stopped having threads we've had enough of, there would be no more threads.

 

Nice

 

To answer the question in the thread title, I honestly don't know. It is difficult to answer this question. I definitely hope that my reading of the characters would stay the same irrespective of their gender, but as a poet wrote, "we only know so much about ourselves as we've been tried out", so I can't be sure.

 

I definitely disagree with Mystica's views on particular characters as described in the opening posts and I don't think it has anything to do with characters' gender. To tell the truth, before I began reading the discussions at Dragonmount I'd been unaware how much significance people here place on the gender of particular characters. My fauvorite characters consist of people of both genders, inluding Rand, Nynaeve, Mat, Elayne (yes!), Aviendha and Siuan. I also really like Cadsuane. Egwene is the only female character I definitely dislike, but it has more to do with the writing than with her characterisation in the books.

 

I have never thought that my like or dislike of a particular character could be caused even in the smallest bit by the character's gender, but who knows? It is a nice topic for a psychological experiment. Giving people an unknown text and minipulating the genders of various characters should be easy and the results would be interesting.

[Dreggs Morlock]

The fact that these characters produce such passionate (at times) responses just goes to show how real they are, even in a different world as ours is to Randland. I do enjoy a good debate on these topics, but this one is a bit too general for me. Comparing Egwene's haters to Perrin's haters makes sense... but ALL men and women in the series? I think "talking in generalities" is what gets us into trouble in the first place.

 

It is true that Egwene's strong personality gets the male piggies going, but you have to admit, the direction RJ chose to go with her can be infuriating. My biggest problem is her making the SAME mistake every other Aei Sedai made in regards to the Last Battle: it is up to the White Tower to guide and lead everyone, irregardless of other's abilities; those abilities are to be used by the White Tower, for the greater good. I find it unbelievable, to be honest; she of all people (with experiences with the Aeil, Rand, etc) should know that using power plays against other strong personalities just doesn't work.

 

But, BUT!! Remember, we are seeing what she is THINKING, and RJ always had the ability to do that well. We ALL think "I can/could have done that better." We just don't say it, and neither does Egwene... you cannot (but people still do) hold thoughts never spoken against the character.

[Aiel Heart]

Finally!!! Someone who doesn't think Egwene is the worst woman ever to walk the earth!! She was annoying at first because she seemed to just adopt the crowd she was in (she couldn't wait to have the braid then as soon as she's out of the Two Rivers her hair is down because Aes Sedai don't always wear braids and then she becomes part Tinker then a perfect little Aes Sedai novice then she adopts the customs of the Aiel--where she finally gets a real backbone! Yes she did get one when she was damane but being with the Wise Ones really solidified it)

Now she has managed to unite the tower, overthrow Elaida, beat back a Seanchan attack, and has changed the way that the Wise Ones, the Windfinders and Aes Sedai interact into something better and positive--an alliance of sorts. I love her now! And everyone thinks that she's horrible.

 

And I don't think that Rand doesn't care. He tries to stop caring to make himself hard, but the pinpricks that he mentioned in the end of AGS showed that he was hurt by all he was doing, but he thought that that was what he was supposed to do. What he had to do. With stuff like the schools he's trying to leave behind something positive. I think he cared, but was just lost and didn't know how to handle everything.

[The Don]

Acctually, Rand, Egwene, and Perrin, along with Elayne are all annoying to me. Rand is a spoiled brat, only being cool in the first and last book. Egwene or Elayne can't listen to anyone else. As a princess Elayne has somewhat of an excuse, but Egwene has been trying to run things since the beginning even as an inkeeper's daughter, but after the first couple books she kinda grew on me... a little, at least. Perrin is a whiny little wiener.

 

Mat is the only of the ta'veren that doesn't make me want to punch him if we met IRL. Nynaeve has grown on me, and I think is by far the strongest female character. Lan is straight up gangsta, so is Birgitte. Everyone else has their ups and downs.

 

I don't hate or like characters based on gender, just on how much they whine :)

[Puny]

Acctually, Rand, Egwene, and Perrin, along with Elayne are all annoying to me. Rand is a spoiled brat, only being cool in the first and last book. Egwene or Elayne can't listen to anyone else. As a princess Elayne has somewhat of an excuse, but Egwene has been trying to run things since the beginning even as an inkeeper's daughter, but after the first couple books she kinda grew on me... a little, at least. Perrin is a whiny little wiener.

 

Mat is the only of the ta'veren that doesn't make me want to punch him if we met IRL. Nynaeve has grown on me, and I think is by far the strongest female character. Lan is straight up gangsta, so is Birgitte. Everyone else has their ups and downs.

 

I don't hate or like characters based on gender, just on how much they whine :)

 

Your post made me smile.

 

About the question. I would like to say yes but I prolly no, I wouldn´t feel the same. For starters a female would have three men. I wouldn´t feel sorry for Rand as I do now, I´d think lucky female dragon that has three guys lol. And all this is based on that women can be snotty, jealous and so on. Sure men can be that too but in my mind they would all agree to share lol.

The example with Tylin, Mat. It a man did that to a girl, Im positive that the majority of the readers would think he was a mean rapist who kidnapped and black-mailed a poor innocent girl. But because it´s a man now it´s not so bad...(he can be said to be female in one regard- the fact the he likes women and is flirty has been made a point that he actually wanted Tylin to treat him that way, cause he could have thrown her of or something)

If men walked around calling women wool-heads, wanting to spank them, thinking them to be stupid but also feared them cause hey, they might be crazy then I think I wouldn´t feel the same. Would the women in power rape men as Valda did, I doubt it but only cause I can´t imagine that (my sexist views ;))

How about a bunch of female White-Cloaks going around wanting to kill all AesSedai cause those rabbid Warlocks are men that destroyed the World and if they go free everything will burn? I dk if they would get as much hate as the male WC do?

I doubt female Shaidar Haran would rape all the male Forsaken when they were to be punished ( shows my view that when sexual punishment is involved it should be a guy, because guys do it better <3 lol) So yeah I definitly think I would feel different. And what´s interesting is that alot of these points and ways of thinking are subconsious to us as readers.

 

Really interesting question.

[Joshua Hendrickson]

I've never thought of reversing the genders of the characters in WOT. To me, part of the interest of Jordan's world is how it shows the influence of powerful females upon society. That said, there are stereotypes constantly at play: most of the women, whether good or evil, are bullies, and consider men "woolheaded idiots", while the men just find the women baffling and intimidating. Other aspects of sexuality at play in the story irritate me: the prudishness of the Two Rivers folk is especially irksome, and very hard to believe in young men of the age of Rand and Mat and Perrin--don't any teenagers in Emond's Field fool around? This is only partly mitigated by the introduction of other, more sexually open cultures as contrast to the Two Rivers.

 

Rand is too stiff to be wholly likable, but his situation is by far the most interesting thing about WOT; everything else still feels like filler to me, with the exception of some of the quests of the Supergirls. Perrin's indifference to all but his wife is understandable but not terribly interesting (especially when his quest to save Faile from the Shaido is stretched out over an intolerable number of pages), although his quest to save the Two Rivers from the Trollocs in TSR was quite involving. I still prefer both of them to Mat. I know, I know; I'm probably the only WOT fan who doesn't like Mat, and yes, sometimes I find him appealing, especially in battle, but frankly I've never been into characters who are rather devil-may-care and anti-intellectual. I find Nynaeve equally annoying--I hated Nynaeve from her first appearance and only began to like her after her near drowning. As for Egwene, I have nothing against her and have always liked her even when she gets that arrogant streak. Cadsuane was fascinating at first but has proven less so over time. I love Elayne and Min--how could anyone dislike Min?

 

As I write this I'm just a few chapters away from the end of TGH, and therefore one seventh of the way through my fifth reading of WOT. Even though they're almost overfamiliar by this point, I still like these early novels best: the Blight of Bloat doesn't set in until Book 7 ... and I still dread rereading COT.

[Aiel Heart]

I stopped liking Min when she was all whiney when traveling with Siuan Leane and Logain. "They have no right to keep me from Rand! I have to go see Rand! This is so unfair"

 

She continues to annoy me after that. One example that really sticks out in my mind is when Alanna and Cadsuane followed him to (I believe it was) Far Madding and she had to arrange herself perfectly on the bed with Rand as if she was going to impress Alanna by being draped over him.

 

So basically... Though she has her head in books a lot I feel like she's the one that's most obsessed with him. Elayne loves him and thinks of him often, but she runs her country just fine without him even though she's carrying his twins, and doesn't whine about it nearly as much as Min would. We haven't been able to see the world through Aviendha's point of view much, but the glimpses we have gotten show her trying to figure out a future for her people and her place in the world. She thinks about her future with Rand and such but isn't obsessed with him. Min has been with him far more than either of the others and that's because Rand is basically all she has to her life.

 

Sorry for bashing on her. She annoys me now.

[Jon Paul]

I don't dislike Egwene because she's female, I dislike her because she's an arrogant, borderline-sociopathic, sexist bully who tortures her friends at the weekend and believes she has a Creator-given right to "guide" a 400 year old demi-god hand-crafted by Creation to be it's champion. I would dislike Egwene whether she be male, female or bloody Martian.

 

I would say I'm sick and tired of the neo-feminist bullshit that leads to threads like this (yay! Let's all go march in our underwear up the highstreet calling ourselves sluts! That's what our mothers fought for!) But I am more worried by the fact that so many young women seem to view the likes of Egwene as a powerful woman and rolemodel.

[Dreggs Morlock]

I don't dislike Egwene because she's female, I dislike her because she's an arrogant, borderline-sociopathic, sexist bully who tortures her friends at the weekend and believes she has a Creator-given right to "guide" a 400 year old demi-god hand-crafted by Creation to be it's champion. I would dislike Egwene whether she be male, female or bloody Martian.

 

I would say I'm sick and tired of the neo-feminist bullshit that leads to threads like this (yay! Let's all go march in our underwear up the highstreet calling ourselves sluts! That's what our mothers fought for!) But I am more worried by the fact that so many young women seem to view the likes of Egwene as a powerful woman and rolemodel.

It's amazing that you read ALL that into this thread... where did you "read between the lines" and get all that?

 

Egwene has a LOT of accomplishments to stand on to justify a little ego; worst, she is one of the youngest to hold her office, making her have to have a big chip on her shoulder so people forget her age. This was how RJ chose her character to overcome her situation, and I think it has been a winner for her. But borderline-sociopathic?? REALLY? Just once, I would LOVE to hear how you think she should have acted if you had control of everything she did... what is the "winning" way to act and hold yourself in your opinion? Should she have said please and thank you more? It's easy to be a armchair quarterback, so to speak, when the weight of the world isn't on your shoulders, but for Rand, Perrin and Egwene... it IS.

 

As for those who dislike people who whine... please note they seldom whine to anyone, it is usually their thoughts we are privy to... pay attention to your own private thoughts, I'll bet you would be amazed at how many people would say YOU are whining if they knew what you were thinking. After all, there is a reason they are private thoughts, and you are not sharing them with others.. right?

 

I re-read my words, and they seem harsh... I do not mean to ruffle anyone's feathers, just bring up ideas to kick around.

[Ananta]

Would I feel the same? No.

 

 

Why? Because as much as people may want it, men and women aren't the same. Men are men and women are women. They are viewed differently.

 

A man can do things a woman can not, and vice versa. A woman can get away with things a man couldn't, and vice versa. That's life, tough luck.

[Mystica]

I appreciate you being sick of certain threads, Jon Paul. I'm sure others are equally sick of other types of threads. The beauty of DM, however, is that we all have the freedom to ignore the threads that we're not interested in. You do bring up an extra interesting element to this discussion however, so I'm glad you choose not to ignore it.

 

 

Just to make clear, I don't spend a lot of time on these boards on average because I have other duties elsewhere on DM. But from time to time, through the years, I will read the threads that catch my interest, even if I don't always participate in them. So that is where this question comes from. My own perception of the general feel of what I've read. I'm not saying that my perception shows the full truth of it, however. But it still triggered my interest.

 

 

 

I've seen quite a few interesting posts so far. The people pointing out how Mat was threated by Tylin definately make a very good point. But what has always amazed me (though it's understandable), is how we all seem to judge these characters based on our own culture. Many seem to forget (from reading their posts in various threads over the years) to take in to consideration the cultures these characters are born in and grow up in. A culture chosen by the Creator (RJ) and therefore dictating their behavior, beliefs, thought patterns, etc. RJ 'choose' to portray many of the countries (though not all of them) as matriarchal cultures. And yet, many of you seem to expect these characters to just go against generations of habit, culture and belief and fall in to 'our' view of things based on how 'we' feel.

 

The absolute genius of RJ has always been that he was able to capture the positive and the negative of every single type of culture he introduced and make his characters extremely life-like. That we all feel so strongly one way or another, is testiment to his ability to bring these characters to life 'for real'. We know that it's fantasy, but somehow he keeps managing to make us forget that and threat these people as though they have been born and raised in 'our' cultures. And consequently we judge them accordingly.

 

It's interesting to see also that Mat's threatment does indeed not bring the same level of outrage than we would see if he had been a woman. To those thinking males never get raped, you'd be surprised. But where a male raper uses mainly physical force, a female uses mental force for the most part. Some would even say that a male rape is worse than a female one (and have said so according to documentaries and books I've seen and read in the past) because of the added insult to a man's primal pride. Let me make my point of view on this perfectly clear: it is never ok. It is never less horrible. No woman OR man should ever be put in this position. Period. It's one of the most vile things that can ever be done to a person because it deprives them of the freedom to choose what they'll accept or not accept in their life.

 

But did Mat truly have no other choice but to comply with Tylin's forced affections? We see him walking the streets of the city fairly unchecked. We know he's got more than enough skill to slip away if he really wants to. We've seen him come up with ideas and strategies that only seem to work for him. If he 'really' wanted to get out (as most women who are violently raped want to get out) would she have been able to keep him there? I'm thinking no. But he never tries. He mutters and complains but doesn't make any real plans for leaving until the Gholam appears again. He puts up with it (even though he doesn't entirely dislike it, from his pov also) because other plans of his are more important to him. That indicates a choice on his part. Raped people have no choice. None. He did, no matter how difficult that choice may have been, he still had it and made it. And he wasn't followed by soldiers, but by servants of the palace (that I can remember anyway, I just finished re-reading that part and can't remember him being followed by armed men). Rape victoms are not given the freedom to roam about, and if they are the raper usually has a security in the form of harming one of their loved ones or worse, in order to ensure the victom's return. I don't remember Tylin ever threatening anyone in Mat's entourage. Or anyone at all, for that matter.

Believe it or not, but Mat is my all time favotire character. Far above anyone else in the books. I love his mischievous nature, his total lack of interest for titles and positions, his manner of dealing with the Aes Sedai and the way he always seems to be forced to be the hero despite his non-stop efforts to get away from that. I love his character, his personality, his humor. Everything. But I can not believe that he stayed in that situation by anything other than his own choice. That it was not the situation he would have chosen if given a chance, is one thing. But he DID choose to stay in it in order to see HIS other plans succeed. So HE put more importance on his other plans than the fact that Tylin used him as a tooth soothing. And therefore, in my book, it's not rape. He even mentioned it himself at some point, he wouldn't mind sharing her bed, but could do without her being so controlling about it. He's hurt in his macho pride of not being the one in control, eventhough he's perfectly fine with the action itself. A rape victom is never fine with it.

 

 

 

 

@ David Selig

 

you're right. Perrin only promised not to raise Manetheren. But you can't deny that many opinions on the females on these boards are based on what those women are thinking as well. So why is that ok when it's not ok to do so for the males? Many times, when arguments are presented to 'prove' how bad the girls are, those arguments are based on 'thought patterns' from the girls. We've had some on Egwene quite a few times in here already and I've seen quite a number of them spread over many threads this year alone. So why is it ok to do so for the girls, but not when it comes to one of the men? Perrin's pov clearly, and without doubt, states that he WOULD have done it. And in the state he was in, I don't think anyone doubts that he would. Yes, many have voiced their disagreement with it, but not nearly as much as they go on about the girls/women at times. I wasn't arguing 'against' anything/anyone. I was merely using examples to showcase my own perception of the discussions going on.

 

I don't know about ohers, but I have no problem at all with Cadsuane offering advice and help to the DR. It's the way she does it which is really grating and counter-productive - who cares if he swears, the end of the world is coming, angering the Dragon Reborn for such a ridiculous reason is really petty and dumb. Without Min's viewing, Rand would've never taken her as an advisor. If a man had tried to act this way towards Rand, slapping him, treating him like a not particularly smart 10 year old most of the time, he'd probably have been balefired or at least send away long before Cadsuane was.

 

At the risk of turning this in to another discussion of this character versus that one, I'll answer this because it links directly in to what I wrote above about people not taking in to account the cultures these characters have been born in and grown up in. Cadsuane is over 300 years old. For 3 centuries she's learned through trial and failure the best possible manners in which to accomplish different things. Dealing with different people in different circumstances. Is it that unbelievable or unnatural for her to use those time-tested methods with a 20 year old boy, even if he's the Dragon Reborn? And let's not forget, Rand did NOT have 3000 years of experience at the time. He was still very much fighting Lews Therin within him at that time. NOW that he has embraced that part of himself, he no longer acts like a 10 year old brat, the way he has before. And is it that unbelievable that a person would FIRST try the methods that have been proven successfull for over 3 centuries before dismissing them out of hand? Of ALL Aes Sedai, Cadsuane was the first to freely and openly tell him straight out that she would work towards HIS benefit. Not the White Tower, not her own. His. People tend to conveniently forget that little part whenever they bash her. If Dart Rand hàd stayed on and actually won the LB, the resulting future WOULD have been just as bleak and we all know it. He hàd to get in touch with his humanity again, or the DO might have won already. So yes, she tried the things she had known to be successfull for 3 centuries. Let's say 2 centuries, using the first one for her to grow up, train, become Aes Sedai and shed her puppy furr once she gained the Shawl. That's still more than any living AS in existence. Is it REALLY that incredible that she would try those methods first? No it's not. No matter that he is the DR, he's STILL only human too! Just like any AS remains only human regardless of her using the One Power. Just like any Queen or King remains only human, regardless of their crown. Just like every single living person on the planet remains only human regardless of their station, rank, position, culture or origin. She set out to save that 'human', not to guide the 'dragon'. There's a difference and one that many continuously fail to notice. But no, lets fry her, because the Light forbid that we would actually give some level of trust to a time-tested woman who's been around longer than most anyone else. As for the DR being 'not' just anyone. It's been 3000 years since the last Dragon was around. Who do you think would have the knowledge on how to deal with him other than falling to their face in utter devotion? Everyone keeps talking about how power corrupts. Can you imagine the level of corruption Rand would have if everything just fell in his lap and he had no accountability to anyone? He's NOT a demi-god. He's a human man, given an incredibel cause, doing the best he can under extreme circumstances and being battered on all sides. ANYONE would risk losing their humanity in such circumstances. Her goal was to make sure his humanity survived the events. But let's forget about that and focuss on her insisting he has a level of manners. Do you honestly believe that she did that because she can't stand swearing? I bet she's heard more swearing in her first third of her life than any of us will ever hear in our entire lifetime. With Cadsuane, if you can't look past the surface, you won't ever understand her. She doesn't care about the swearing, she cares about the attitude that brings on the swearing. There's a difference. A huge difference, because that attitude also dictates other things. Like belief, actions, decisions, etc.

 

 

I think I'll stop here lol. Sorry for the long post, everyone!

[Mr Ares]

Logain I agree with you and I"ve never understood why he's so popular given that he started a big war, caused thousands of deaths and doesn't seem regretful of it at all.

It's because that all happened off screen, and not to characters we care about, and Logain himself is presented in a sympathetic light. Plus he's an Asha'man, which means he gets points for being cool - if you're cool enough, you can be forgiven for anything.

 

 

For that matter try and picture the hate, say, Mattin Stepaneos would get if he kept Min locked in the palace of Illian, held her at knife point, tied her down, had his way with her and then had his guards prevent her from leaving and refused to feed her until she capitulated to his advances. Murderous doesn't begin to cover it. The readers would be calling for his slow and painful death. I know I would be. Yet when Tylin does it... laughs aplenty.

Because only female on male rape can be treated as funny? In poor taste it might be, be rape has been used for the purposes of comedy many times. The mere fact of it being male on female wouldn't necessarily change how people saw it - partly it is dependent on presentation. Some people don't have a problem with the Mat/Tylin scenes, others do - if they were presented as Mat being forced against his will, unable to defend himself and being traumatised by his experience, a lot more people would hate Tylin. If the aftermath of the Min/Mattin situation you describe involved Min pouting as she smokes a post-coital cigarette it lessens the effect of it. She's not bothered - why should we be? So it is with Mat - he's inconvenienced and embarassed, not terrified.

 

As to the topic as a whole, it's difficult to gauge to what extent feelings would change because of a gender flip. In part, readers will be bringing their own gender biases to the table, knowingly or otherwise, but also how these characters are presented to us plays a part. Flip, for example, Nynaeve. Her compassion and desire to Heal people would probably still be seen as a positive trait in a man. As for her hypocrisy, and her blindness to it which is a source of much humour, if you had that in a man you'd have Mat. So I think the dominant parts of Nynaeve's personality would be seen as the same even if she were a man, and therefore it wouldn't make much difference. As for Mat, much of his humour would remain intact. The idea of a woman able to handle herself in a fight wouldn't be unacceptable (we have the Maidens in the series), I doubt people would have a problem with her being a great general. Her being a maniser (is that a word?), as opposed to Mat's womanising, might be something some people object to. Then again, we see Birgitte and the Aiel, and other examples of women who are quite willing to do what Mat does. People don't object that much, so on the whole I don't really see that Mat's character would be seen drastically differently if he were a she. On the whole, I'm not convinced it would make a major difference in how people saw the characters.

[Suttree]

I would say I'm sick and tired of the neo-feminist bullshit that leads to threads like this (yay! Let's all go march in our underwear up the highstreet calling ourselves sluts! That's what our mothers fought for!) But I am more worried by the fact that so many young women seem to view the likes of Egwene as a powerful woman and rolemodel.

 

So how do you really feel JP

 

Mystica asks a perfectly legitimate question and somehow I don't think comments like this really help the situation.