Wheel of Time- Revising the book series

[Mr_Fahrenheit]

Well many people think the series as a whole is unwieldy. We all know about certain things that should have not been put into the books. Stuff that didn't add to the plot and just held down the books. Its a brilliant series but way to bloated. What would people think about TOR releasing the books in another edition but with certain elements cut. Streamlining the series of these elements? And if so which elements should be cu?

 

I'm not sure If I'm for it myself but it is an interesting idea. If the books were cut it would be a lot easier to gain attention from new readers to the books series, It would flow a heck of a lot better and certain characters would be easier to appreciate.

 

Even if not done in practise what do people think about the idea of such a revision? Much less skirt smoothing and folding of arms would certainly be appreciated as well.

 

Finally there is the consideration of how respectful it is to RJ. I love the guy and wouldn't want to tarnish his memory by hurting his baby. However It could revitalise the series by capturing that which is best about him, bringing new respect for him in new audiences that wouldn't have read the series otherwiee.

 

Thoughts?

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i think that's reader's digest's job.

 

i think it would be mega-lame, and i wouldn't be interested in it. but there are people who like abridged and condensed books, and they would like it fine i'm sure.

[randsc]

I wouldn't want a condensed or abridged version just for the sake of it being shorter.

 

I do think that the series could be improved by a ruthless editor.

[Majsju]

Absolutely not. If RJ had not wanted things to be in the books, they would not have made it there in the first place. And when all is said and done, this is his story.

[Sid]

I am wholeheartedly against this. Even if people wanted to do something like this, there's no way they could until AMoL comes out. People talk all the time about 'useless' parts of the story, but they're almost always in there for a reason. Just about anything, if removed, makes something not work later. So, just don't bother since it'll probably fail IMO.

[OptimusPrime]

I am wholeheartedly against this. Even if people wanted to do something like this, there's no way they could until AMoL comes out.

 

This is what I think when people moan about Red Eagle not making any announcements about the film adaptations.

 

I dont think a revision of the books would be legal. Theyd never get permission from Harriet. Tor likely wouldnt do it either because its just... what would be the point? It would be sacriligeous considering the situation surrounding the books, as in RJs death, the new writer being found, etc etc.

 

I for one wouldnt read a revised version. No way. Theres too many significant details, subtle foreshadowing and the like, not to mention an utter lack of RJs style... I cant imagine any writer wanting his books being rewritten by someone else. Doing a shorter revision of the whole series would just be like an authroization of sellable fanfic.

[rageofwar1978]

i think if anything id like to see a revised edition that had deleted scenes in it. we know that RJ had tons and tons of notes and as an author myself i know that there are things that get cut either to make an editor happy or the publisher in general.

[FortySix]

I wouldn't want a condensed or abridged version just for the sake of it being shorter.

 

I do think that the series could be improved by a ruthless editor.

 

Right on. Notice how the books become slower paced as the series moves on? This isn't just in WoT but in others series as well. A Song of Ice and Fire is a great example of a writer becoming too big for an editor. Once someone catapults onto the bestseller list I'm sure it becomes harder for an editor to wrangle that writer in. JK Rowling managed to do well after her success. Either she has a much better ability to create brief and simple novels, or she managed to somehow keep her ego in check well enough to listen to her editor.

 

Most fantasy novels written today are too long. There's no excuse for it. Very few writers can maintain reader's attention through 1200 page tomes like The Way of King and A Dance With Dragons. Both of those novels would be strengthened by trimming off 500 pages of needless exposition and flashback. And those are two of the best fantasy novels today. Brandon Sanderson said in his podcast that he realized he couldn't maintain a fast enough pace to write a novel as long as The Way of Kings turned out but he did it anyway.

 

I'm just sick of the trend in fantasy today. Fantasy writers think that epic length is epic fantasy. The writing should be epic in scope, not some arbitrary length. Writer's need to keep the pace fast, the tension high, the stakes universal. By its nature the novel is already a slow paced medium. A writer doesn't need to do anything extra to make a slow, plodding story. But to make a 200,000 word story be important, believable, and fast takes a lot skill and patience. Robert Jordan's first three novels are great examples of this. He doesn't waste words. There's an actual plot, a goal that the characters are reaching for. When they get it the story is over.

 

I loved the Way of Kings. I think Sanderson is one of the best writers today and I think the Way of Kings has potential to be one of the best fantasy worlds created. I am eagerly looking forward to his second novel in the series, hopefully he won't have any flashback scenes. But good editors are like samurai. Steadfast in their devotion to the writer but ruthless when it comes to chopping out extraneous story.

[Mr_Fahrenheit]

As the devils advocate. For important points being taken out, foreshadowings etc. There are many parts that are just not relevant, or could be cut down. Perrin, Salidar. The significant details are well overweighed by useless (plotwise) junk. Just don't take out significant stuff and still there is plenty left to cut. As for changing RJ's writing style it wouldn't even be that necessary. You could easily just cut chapters without upsetting the book at all. By literally not adding a single new word the story wouldn't be upset. As someone else said you could easily cut the series down to 9-10 books without losing anything significant, and as I've already said would flow very well and draw plenty of new fans.

 

It'll also reduce the critiism. I asked a friend at uni the other day who has read some of the books why she doesn't like it and she said '12 books is necessary, anymore is just milking it.' Which is one reason people don't read the series. More fans could realise a greater respect for RJ's work. And it could be considered respectful to RJ as you are cutting away the weaknesses of his works allowing his true genius to show through. Any cutting down isn't for the sake of it but to make it better.

 

Another improvement that I am definitely for however would be a character list at the beginning of the books, it'd make things so much easier and one could follow the story without having to refer to previous books or the internet to find out who someone mentioned once 5000 pages ago influened the story.

 

But yeah until AMoL comes out it wouldn't be a good idea.

[Suttree]

And it could be considered respectful to RJ as you are cutting away the weaknesses of his works allowing his true genius to show through. Any cutting down isn't for the sake of it but to make it better.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I don't quite think that this would be considered respectful...

[Mr Ares]

As the devils advocate. For important points being taken out, foreshadowings etc. There are many parts that are just not relevant, or could be cut down. Perrin, Salidar. The significant details are well overweighed by useless (plotwise) junk. Just don't take out significant stuff and still there is plenty left to cut. As for changing RJ's writing style it wouldn't even be that necessary. You could easily just cut chapters without upsetting the book at all. By literally not adding a single new word the story wouldn't be upset. As someone else said you could easily cut the series down to 9-10 books without losing anything significant, and as I've already said would flow very well and draw plenty of new fans.

 

It'll also reduce the critiism. I asked a friend at uni the other day who has read some of the books why she doesn't like it and she said '12 books is necessary, anymore is just milking it.' Which is one reason people don't read the series.

I'll stop you there. People do read the series - an awful lot of people read the series. The last six books all topped bestseller lists. To think that by making the books a little shorter, maybe losing one or two books from the total is going to produce a significant uptake is, I think, a little far fetched. This series doesn't sell as Harry Potter, but there is nothing you can do to make them sell that well, short of retitling them Harry Potter and the Eye of the World, Harry Potter and the Great Hunt, etc.

More fans could realise a greater respect for RJ's work. And it could be considered respectful to RJ as you are cutting away the weaknesses of his works allowing his true genius to show through. Any cutting down isn't for the sake of it but to make it better.

 

Another improvement that I am definitely for however would be a character list at the beginning of the books, it'd make things so much easier and one could follow the story without having to refer to previous books or the internet to find out who someone mentioned once 5000 pages ago influened the story.

 

But yeah until AMoL comes out it wouldn't be a good idea.

I don't think it's particularly respectful to start hacking away at RJ's work, just because you think it would improve it. Further, some of the perceived flaws in the series would not be addressed. So to fix them we'd have to start adding as well. But what could be more respectful to RJ's legacy than rewriting it to allow his genius to better shine through? I think the best thing to do is leave it be. Warts and all. We might look at it and say it could be better, we might wonder about paths that could have been taken but weren't, but the series stands as RJ intended it to - or as close as humanly possible, given his passing. That would be respectful.

[RyanL24]

I agree that you could trim a lot of stuff and it would make the series better. I also agree that the only person who should really be able to do that would be RJ. So we can only wish things would have happened differently.

 

 

I wish he would have been more like Stephen King with his Dark Tower series. He finished it, 7 books. Now he's adding another, book 4.5. You can read it, and it will add to the story, but you don't have to read it. In the WoT series, RJ could have had a conversation like this: "Woah man, where have you been?" "Well, it took us a while to get here. You see, Faile was kidnapped and I had to...." Then released a book when he finished, that would have been the story of Perrin rescuing Faile. "I just took the craziest trip across Randland with this circus, and came away with a wife!" I think he just kept getting more and more ideas and had to incorporate them into the story. I wish he would have been more focused on finishing the story. sigh.

[WilsonC]

I always felt it was more of a question of organization as opposed to one of length that causes a slowdown in some of the later books. Plotlines drag because we have about several separate novel-length plot threads - Elayne in Andor, Perrin and the Shaido, Mat and Tuon, Egwene and the White Tower - that are divided up and go on for several books, with only Rand's plot threads coming to any kind of resolution in the meantime. I'm curious how that part of the series would read if those threads had each been contained in a single book, rather than spreading a bunch of threads through several books, with the lesser subplot threads scattered where they best fit.

[Mr_Fahrenheit]

I don't think it's particularly respectful to start hacking away at RJ's work, just because you think it would improve it. Further, some of the perceived flaws in the series would not be addressed. So to fix them we'd have to start adding as well. But what could be more respectful to RJ's legacy than rewriting it to allow his genius to better shine through? I think the best thing to do is leave it be. Warts and all. We might look at it and say it could be better, we might wonder about paths that could have been taken but weren't, but the series stands as RJ intended it to - or as close as humanly possible, given his passing. That would be respectful.

 

Fair enough. Re the disrespect. Same to what everyone else said.

 

An awful lot of people read the series. Yes. But many of those people stop because of the excess baggage. Especially about halfway through from what I've noticed. There is a lot of hate for the series because of this and it just is very sad.

 

Anyone got any other ideas as to how the series might be made better without changing RJ's work too much?

[GYLD]

I wish he would have been more like Stephen King with his Dark Tower series. He finished it, 7 books.

 

And it felt incredibly rushed and unsatisfying.

[jsbrads]

for 46 - wow, JK Rowling, really? did you read the books? year 1 is 1/8 the size of year 7

[randsc]

The notion that only RJ could edit and shorten these books is just silly. That's the role of an editor. If RJ could have done it, it wouldn't need to be done. Most people underestimate the importance of a good editor.

 

If you're an author an author who tends to fall in love with his own words, and can't bear to see them cut, you should probably work with an editor you are not married to. That is not in any way disrespectful to Harriet. But the fact is that the series required a ruthless pen, and didn't get it. I think it would actually be a better series if, after it is completed, it is re-edited by an editor who is not even a fan, and has never read any of it. It is helpful for an editor to have a little distance.

[Vinny]

The whole reason WOT gains attention is because of its size, the ambition of the project & the idea that people have been reading it for over 20 years. Any series that tops the NYT bestseller list with each volume is not in need of revision. I could see an entire digital set being something that attracted new readers but not editing. And this from someone who sees, in volume one, that Jordan included far too much extraneous material.

[RyanL24]

for 46 - wow, JK Rowling, really? did you read the books? year 1 is 1/8 the size of year 7

 

I think that's a different situation though, book 1 was written for kids of a certain age. Each year became more difficult to read and contained more mature material. It was designed for the same kids as they grew up. It's a little tough now, all 7 books are available. My nephew is half way through the series, and my sister and I discussed this recently. She reads them first, and she's on year 4 (or 5?) and not sure if she wants him to continue reading the series just yet. So yeah, book 7 is long and uses words like "effing" because those little year 1 rascals are all growed up now.

 

 

 

I wish he would have been more like Stephen King with his Dark Tower series. He finished it, 7 books.

 

And it felt incredibly rushed and unsatisfying.

 

 

Really? Which part felt rushed to you? I didn't get that feeling. Maybe I did, and I thought "wow, these guys have to rush if they're going to save the Tower." As opposed to WoT where I wonder why everybody seems to be dilly-dallying their way to the LB. "Sure, it's coming someday, no worries, I'm sure I'll be there." "Unless Faile is kidnapped, then I have better crap to do than worry about the LB." Sigh.

 

 

And check it out, if DT felt rushed being told in just 7 books, no worries, he's still adding to it. And he has so many non DT books that actually are DT books. It would have been cool if RJ did something like that. The possibilities would have been endless. He could have had a crazy SciFi book and just been like "in one age, known to some as the 7th age..." because nobody knows anything about the 7th age.

 

I just think that any time RJ got an idea, instead of being a great idea for a new book, he had to add it to the WoT series. I think if he lived a long healthy life the series would have been wrapped up at about book 20. BS is covering a lot of material, and I don't see how even after all that he's given us, he can fit the rest into just 1 book.

[OptimusPrime]

See this is the thing, people are saying to cut the series while others are saying one more isnt enough. I can understand the problem people have with the structuring-for example we could have had a single book devoted to Perrin and his dealing with the Shaido and rescuing Faile. It would have felt less drawn out, it is its own substory within the rest.

 

I think the only thing that could be realistically cut out would be the involvement of the Sea Folk. They bring nothing to the table except another title for Rand and a new source of food in the famine. But even then, cutting them out wouldnt even remove much.

 

Im still against the idea of a revision though. Like Mr Ares said, it would add new flaws so we'd still be having a conversation much like this.

[capuga]

The notion that only RJ could edit and shorten these books is just silly. That's the role of an editor. If RJ could have done it, it wouldn't need to be done. Most people underestimate the importance of a good editor.

 

If you're an author an author who tends to fall in love with his own words, and can't bear to see them cut, you should probably work with an editor you are not married to. That is not in any way disrespectful to Harriet. But the fact is that the series required a ruthless pen, and didn't get it. I think it would actually be a better series if, after it is completed, it is re-edited by an editor who is not even a fan, and has never read any of it. It is helpful for an editor to have a little distance.

 

Which would have been fine while RJ was still alive. But there is a difference between an author taking an editor's suggestions and working the changes into his writing while he's working on it, and someone coming in later and cutting out the chunks they want without the author's involvement. It would effect the tone and feel of the story and possibly cut out things that are foreshadowing or important characterization that the editor would not understand without the author's input. The need for better editing is a valid criticism of the series, but at this point with RJ dead, it's best to just leave the series as is, good and bad. Not to mention that I doubt Harriet would allow this to happen.

[Suttree]

The notion that only RJ could edit and shorten these books is just silly. That's the role of an editor. If RJ could have done it, it wouldn't need to be done. Most people underestimate the importance of a good editor.

 

The notion that you could go in and start changing an authors work after his death for good or bad is even sillier....

[WilsonC]

The meticulous level of detail and the number of diverging plot threads within the series is something not many authors could pull off with any success, and it's certainly a quality that turns off a number of would-be readers, but the minutia that's not needed in the plot is a part of what gives it the feel that makes it so successful a series. A lot of editors would be turned off by the length of Wheel of Time and the number of semi-important characters it follows, and for most writers, a series would, quite frankly, stink if they tried as ambitious a scope as Jordan did. Jordan wasn't most writers, though; he was an excellent one with an ability for detail and complexity that most authors would envy.

 

It's easy to pick nits, and I suspect that there's certain things included that ended up not really going where he wanted them to, but I really don't think a heavy edit pass would do the story justice. I could see cutting a scene here and there, and a bit of hindsight-fueled restructuring - and if Jordan were alive he'd likely even agree with some of the changes - but nothing that would impact the series enough to reduce the number of books. The story could be significantly reduced in length, and it could still be a strong series, but it would be a different series.

 

The skirt-smoothing and braid-pulling might drive some readers nuts, but it wouldn't be Wheel of Time to me without it.

[randsc]

So Stieg Larsson's remaining works had to be released unedited? Hemingway, Kafka, Fitzgerald...they all had books published after their deaths, worked on by careful editors but obviously without the author's involvement.

 

Editors "go in and start changing an authors work after his death" all the time. That's the job.

[Gathering Storman Norman]

I wouldn't want the books shortened, because there is very little that could be removed w/o destroying the series.

 

As long as the series is many things still feel rushed. Especially some of the stuff BS did.

 

An example is how Egween got the Kin, wise ones, and sea folk to agree to sharing their one power training an their foreign exchange program. It was done in the dream world in like five minutes.