Why are people upset with Sanderson's take on Mat?

[FarShainMael]

He meant changing the core details of the story....such as plot twists.....he still has to fill in the small unimportan details that RJ was able to finish before he died, and he tends to do it in his own writing style, instead of trying to mimmick RJ's. There are many examples of these small changes in style. A good example would be the fact that RJ, in earlier books, called the Whitecloan leaders Lord Captains, where BS calls them Lords Captain, putting the plurl on the Lord instead of Captain.

I know that this is a little bit nitpicky, but RJ used Lords Captain, not Lord Captains.

 

He certainly did..

 

Search Results

 

lords captain Search

 

Your Search: lords captain

Matches Found: 11

Entries: 11

 

The Eye of the World

 

Chapter 30

 

Page 368 (HC); Page 439 (PB)

 

or about Lords Captain of the Children of the Light

 

Crossroads of Twilight

 

PROLOGUE

 

Would the old fool continue to be stubborn with all ten surviving Lords Captain outside

 

Knife of Dreams

 

PROLOGUE

 

including no fewer than three of the Lords Captain

 

It will take half the day for Asunawa to catch the other Lords Captain

 

The Lords Captain

 

The other Lords Captain will be halfway there by now

 

New Spring the Novel

 

Chapter 2

 

Even the High Lords of Tear and the Lord Captain-Commander of the Children of the Light did that much

 

Towers of Midnight

 

PROLOGUE

 

before the Light and the Lords Captain here with you

 

but was also accompanied by five Lords Captain

 

Pass the word to the other Lords Captain

 

you and the other Lords Captain bring our men out in ranks onto the field

 

Home · dposey@mw-inc.com

 

I don't know who wrote 'TWRJTWOT':

 

Search Results

 

lord captains Search

 

Your Search: lord captains

Matches Found: 4

Entries: 4

 

The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time

 

Chapter 25

 

Page 226 (HC);

 

which consists of approximately a dozen of the highest-ranking and most favored Lord Captains

 

Page 227 (HC);

 

from the Lord Captains to the lowest trooper or recruit

 

many of the Lord Captains also have their own personal networks of eyes-and-ears

 

who are equal in rank to the Lord Captains

 

Home · dposey@mw-inc.com

[Ingtar Shinowa]

"Lord Captains" is incorrect. It's like saying "Attorney Generals".

[Dagon Thyne]

The fact is that any changes in Mat were orchestrated by RJ himself. Because, Brandon is writing the characters from RJ's notes. So, don't pick on Brandon when it's RJ's doing.

 

 

To expand on this a bit, I believe BS even stated that the only character he had to truly write from scratch was Perrin.

A lot of the Mat scenes were already done or partially done from what I understood.

 

I think Brandon said that he rewrote everything in his own style so that it would be consistent. Even the "completed" ones. Which is why some people still noticed turns of phrase that Sanderson uses in the ToG scenes. So all the detail, action, dialogue are RJs, but the writing style is still Sanderson's. Unlike other parts, where Brandon said there would be one paragraph describing an entire scene and he had to fill in all the detail.

 

Can't remember where I read/heard that... I'm thinking it was in those video interviews that were posted the other day from that Euro website.

 

That sounds quite contrary to what Brandon has said earlier. He has several times said that he has tried to not touch the things RJ wrote, unless absolutely necessary.

 

He meant changing the core details of the story....such as plot twists.....he still has to fill in the small unimportan details that RJ was able to finish before he died, and he tends to do it in his own writing style, instead of trying to mimmick RJ's. There are many examples of these small changes in style. A good example would be the fact that RJ, in earlier books, called the Whitecloan leaders Lord Captains, where BS calls them Lords Captain, putting the plurl on the Lord instead of Captain.

 

Uhm, no. He meant what I wrote he said. If RJ wrote something, it stays, untouched, unless it is absolutley necessary to change it.

 

 

Little problem....RJ never finished TGS, ToM, or MoL.....He wrote down some outlines and details and plot twists before he died.....BS has to fill in the rest of it....and he does so in his own style instead of try to copy RJ's, which he himself admited that he tried and it turned out bad.

[RyanL24]

Maybe I just haven't read WOT enough times. I've only read the 2 new books twice. I'll pay more attention this time when I get through the RJ books and back into the BS books. I'm at PoD now....

 

:)

 

When you add that to the huge demand for speedy delivery that was involved in the release of aMoL as a whole

 

Why was that? It's impossible for me to grasp. I know there are a crapload of Ice & Fire fans just from hanging out here, those guys love that series despite the fact that there hasn't been a new book for 6 years. And there was no wrench thrown into the productions, nothing like 'oh the author died so there might not be a new book for a few years...' I just don't get it.

[Vambram]

@Vambram: Dude, common. I said "Ineptitude at writing certain characters" not "Ineptitude as a writer." It's the post right above your last, for reference.

 

I'll expound if it's helpful for clarification ...realizing his ineptitude at writing certain characters, in the Wheel of Time series, as witnessed in the last two published works, Towers of Midnight, and The Gathering Storm...

 

I've said my peace.

 

*Throws head-knuckle to Luckers

 

Yes, you did say "Ineptitude at writing certain characters" , but then later in that very same post you said that Brandon had "shortcomings as a writer".

Again, if Brandon's writing is as bad as you appear to make it out to be, then why did he win the 2011 David Gemmell Legends award?

I happen to enjoy Brandon's characterizations of Mat and Cadsuane as well as everyone else in TGS and TOM. I do not believe he did poorly there, despite all of the negative critics out there who disagree with me. Thankfully, those negative criticisms appear to be found in a minority of WOT readers and fans, instead of in the majority.

[Southpaw89]

yeah if you don't like his portrayal of characters, don't read it. As fans, we should be grateful he chose to finish this large and daunting series like he did or we'd be reading the ending on a blog instead of in book form or by some author who doesn't understand the series well. No, he isn't perfect but no one would've been other than RJ and unfortunately, RJ is no longer here so we should appreciate the overall great job Brandon has done

[Suttree]

The wider issue of Sanderson's abilities as an author is perhaps better suited to another thread, but while he is not unskilled, there are many fantasy authors writing to day whose work I prefer (notably R. Scott Bakker, Daniel Abraham and Joe Abercrombie. And George R.R. Martin, of course).

 

Agreed and I really enjoy those other authors, White Luck Warrior is far and away the best fantasy novel I have read this year. Btw have you had a chance to make it through "The Dragons Path" by Abraham? Have been meaning to check it out...

[JTmin5]

I thought mat was great. I think BS has done an oustanding job, I mean really you try to write a book thats 800 pages long that someone else wrote notes for but you have to stick along story lines, plots, personalities and throw your own stuff in and make it seem like it was the other guy. Sheesh the guys a genius in his own right. But i mean mat had me stitchin up the whole time i always liked him but i was looking forward to his segments the past few books. I dont really think he has changed all that much, but when your looking for stuff to stand out you will find it or make something out of nothing.

[Guest PiotrekS]

The wider issue of Sanderson's abilities as an author is perhaps better suited to another thread, but while he is not unskilled, there are many fantasy authors writing to day whose work I prefer (notably R. Scott Bakker, Daniel Abraham and Joe Abercrombie. And George R.R. Martin, of course).

 

Agreed and I really enjoy those other authors, White Luck Warrior is far and away the best fantasy novel I have read this year. Btw have you had a chance to make it through "The Dragons Path" by Abraham? Have been meaning to check it out...

 

There was a thread started when one of the posters made a reasoned critique of the choice of Brandon as the writer tasked with finishing the series. A few posters have disagreed and the thread - in which I haven't noticed any insults or rudeness - was promptly locked. I was a little shocked to see it, it looked quite officious on part of the Administrators.

 

I'm not a big fan of Brandon's writing - I like authors who are very skilled and subtle in using the language and he is a little too straightforward for my taste. But I really admire his professional attitude and kindness towards the fans, he's probably one of the nicest and most devoted writers than one can meet.

[Clayden69]

i just have to say Mat is 1 my fave characters from any book i have read, so thank you RJ for such a gr8 character. due to how much i like this character i was quite disappointed the 1st time i read Sandersons take on the character, BUT having just finished the books for the 2nd time i think its more due to the writers' differing styles rather than a change in his character. where RJ was more subtle with his characterization BS is more in ur face (thats the impression i got from GS and ToM havent read any of BS' other novels, yet) RJ brings across Mats character through the characters thought process BS brings it thru in dialogue and actions. this is shown in the "boots" chapter, the chapter with all the background stories, the letter to Elayne, the chat with Talmanes. these are ways that BS is bringing out Mats character (obviously) just in a different way. i said to a friend that it was like BS had given Mat a load of speed, it was the same person just going at 10x the speed and saying things he would normally only "think"

 

 

the problem i made when reading the books for the 1st time is that i read some reviews and fans' opinions onthe BS novels and this clouded my judgment whereas the 2nd time i embraced the fact it was a different author and there would of course be differences and i enjoyed them a lot more, differences included. i found that when reading about Mat in books 1-11 it is very funny but more of a head shake and chuckle and in the 12 and 13 more laugh out loud funny.

 

just my opinions.

 

Peace

 

Darren "heron" Mark Clayden

[Kahsm]

The wider issue of Sanderson's abilities as an author is perhaps better suited to another thread, but while he is not unskilled, there are many fantasy authors writing to day whose work I prefer (notably R. Scott Bakker, Daniel Abraham and Joe Abercrombie. And George R.R. Martin, of course).

 

While I don't disagree with this exactly, I think some people who quite like the worlds BS invents are rubbed the wrong way when you say something like this because it suggests that RJ is in that group of top writers. And, IMO, by no means is RJ at the level of R. Scott Bakker either. You're suggesting BS isn't good enough because he's not OTHER authors. Well neither was RJ. And while RJ and Sanderson might be different in their approach and style, the implication in the comparison you make is that he's not good enough, which isn't true.

 

Now I don't know if that's what you meant to imply, or if you were just making an off-topic comparison to other others, but I can very much see it getting Sanderson fans hot-and-bothered. The man invents some amazingly inventive stories/settings. I personally don't care how blunt he may be. He's also an enormous WOT fan, and I'm not sure you'd find another author who's a bigger one. That alone would be worth a lot.

[sleepinghour]

There was a thread started when one of the posters made a reasoned critique of the choice of Brandon as the writer tasked with finishing the series. A few posters have disagreed and the thread - in which I haven't noticed any insults or rudeness - was promptly locked. I was a little shocked to see it, it looked quite officious on part of the Administrators.

I was a bit disappointed to see that thread closed down since it had several thoughtful and interesting replies. But I can understand and support the decision to close it since Team Jordan have been known to browse fan forums and Brandon's a registered member here. I sincerely hope he never saw that thread--he's already under a great deal of pressure and deserves better than to hear people debating whether he was the right choice.

 

I'm not a big fan of Brandon's writing - I like authors who are very skilled and subtle in using the language and he is a little too straightforward for my taste. But I really admire his professional attitude and kindness towards the fans, he's probably one of the nicest and most devoted writers than one can meet.

I agree with all of the above. I have some issues with Brandon's work on WoT (nothing related to Mat, but definitely Egwene al'Sue and a few other characters), but he seems like such a genuinely nice person, it feels like I'm kicking puppies whenever I say anything remotely critical about his writing. He's clearly doing his best to make fans happy, and certainly no other author could have had more love for the series.

[UncleButcher1980]

The wider issue of Sanderson's abilities as an author is perhaps better suited to another thread, but while he is not unskilled, there are many fantasy authors writing to day whose work I prefer (notably R. Scott Bakker, Daniel Abraham and Joe Abercrombie. And George R.R. Martin, of course).

 

Agreed and I really enjoy those other authors, White Luck Warrior is far and away the best fantasy novel I have read this year. Btw have you had a chance to make it through "The Dragons Path" by Abraham? Have been meaning to check it out...

 

The Dragons Path is no.1 on my Amazon wish list, can't wait to read it.

[dexterryu]

Really the only main thing that I noticed was in TGS. In almost all the previous Mat PoV's RJ hardly went a paragraph without "a man" this or "a man" that.

 

I noticed that returned in ToM.

 

Outside of that I just enjoy the books. I got laughs from Mat in book 1 all the way through 13 so far. The Mat I've always pictured in my head as I've read the WoT for the last 16 years I can definitely see saying and doing in the last two books.

 

There is also a lot of talk about how characters change and arcs. While I feel that holds true I can also see Mat's behavior being slightly different from the situations that he is in. In TGS he and Tuon had just separated. His behavior is indicative of that and he's trying to adjust to it. In ToM's he's just in another stage of that. Now instead of anxiety he's trying to rationalize by looking at women "for Thom" or "for Talmanes".

 

The only other thing I can see from Mat is just a maturation and acceptance that he is important to the Last Battle. It was just a longer and less obvious version of Perrin's acceptance of Lordship and leadership in ToM. Mat just kind of changes overtime from the guy who wants to run away from his role to a person that see's what is going to happen if he doesn't step up.

[jwood01]

I agree with many others that thought Matt was different in TGS and ToM (minus ToG). However, this doesn't really bother me that much. I can only imagine how hard it would be to write from the PoV of someone else's character.

 

I am glad that nobody on this thread argued that BS's problem with writing mat was that BS can't write humour. i found that hilarious on another thread. I found Mistborn and Warbreaker both extremely funny (lots of dry humour). RJ was much better at subtle humour.

[capuga]

I agree with many others that thought Matt was different in TGS and ToM (minus ToG). However, this doesn't really bother me that much. I can only imagine how hard it would be to write from the PoV of someone else's character.

 

I am glad that nobody on this thread argued that BS's problem with writing mat was that BS can't write humour. i found that hilarious on another thread. I found Mistborn and Warbreaker both extremely funny (lots of dry humour). RJ was much better at subtle humour.

 

His young adult series Alcatraz vs the Evil Librarians is also very funny. Good, fun, quick read I would recommend to anyone.

[Mr Ares]

Again, if Brandon's writing is as bad as you appear to make it out to be, then why did he win the 2011 David Gemmell Legends award?

Because he's popular. Quality is not determined by popular vote.

 

 

yeah if you don't like his portrayal of characters, don't read it.

So people who have objections to the portrayals of some of the characters should give up reading the series and never get the long awaited conclusion? That's not much of a solution.

 

 

The wider issue of Sanderson's abilities as an author is perhaps better suited to another thread, but while he is not unskilled, there are many fantasy authors writing to day whose work I prefer (notably R. Scott Bakker, Daniel Abraham and Joe Abercrombie. And George R.R. Martin, of course).

 

Agreed and I really enjoy those other authors, White Luck Warrior is far and away the best fantasy novel I have read this year. Btw have you had a chance to make it through "The Dragons Path" by Abraham? Have been meaning to check it out...

I've got a copy of the Dragon's Path, but I've not had a chance to read it yet. It's probably going to have to wait until I'm done with A Dance With Dragons.

 

 

The wider issue of Sanderson's abilities as an author is perhaps better suited to another thread, but while he is not unskilled, there are many fantasy authors writing to day whose work I prefer (notably R. Scott Bakker, Daniel Abraham and Joe Abercrombie. And George R.R. Martin, of course).

 

While I don't disagree with this exactly, I think some people who quite like the worlds BS invents are rubbed the wrong way when you say something like this because it suggests that RJ is in that group of top writers. And, IMO, by no means is RJ at the level of R. Scott Bakker either. You're suggesting BS isn't good enough because he's not OTHER authors. Well neither was RJ. And while RJ and Sanderson might be different in their approach and style, the implication in the comparison you make is that he's not good enough, which isn't true.

 

Now I don't know if that's what you meant to imply, or if you were just making an off-topic comparison to other others, but I can very much see it getting Sanderson fans hot-and-bothered. The man invents some amazingly inventive stories/settings. I personally don't care how blunt he may be. He's also an enormous WOT fan, and I'm not sure you'd find another author who's a bigger one. That alone would be worth a lot.

So I list some authors whose work I prefer to that of Sanderson, and that could be seen as an insult? Only if they didn't read what I wrote. But just think of all the RJ fans you might have insulted just then by saying he isn't at the level of Scott Bakker.

 

 

There was a thread started when one of the posters made a reasoned critique of the choice of Brandon as the writer tasked with finishing the series. A few posters have disagreed and the thread - in which I haven't noticed any insults or rudeness - was promptly locked. I was a little shocked to see it, it looked quite officious on part of the Administrators.

I was a bit disappointed to see that thread closed down since it had several thoughtful and interesting replies. But I can understand and support the decision to close it since Team Jordan have been known to browse fan forums and Brandon's a registered member here. I sincerely hope he never saw that thread--he's already under a great deal of pressure and deserves better than to hear people debating whether he was the right choice.

So people should withhold opinions - even well reasoned and perfectly politely phrased opinions - that might upset the author? I'm sure he has a thick enough skin to deal with people debating such things - if he didn't, he would probably have given up on the internet a long time ago. Sanderson, like all authors, has his strengths and weaknesses. I'm sure that if he doesn't want to see people discussin them he knows how to avoid those discussions.

[Elan Tedronai]

i was that poster who wrote a thread about sanderson and whether he should have been the author the other day. It got locked because it offended the sensibilities of the easily offended here.

 

i mean the message i got was ' discuss anything you like except this' what a friggin joke. Site censorship at its worst

 

Maybe this site values their relationship with team jordan/sanderson more than free speech

[Guest PiotrekS]

There was a thread started when one of the posters made a reasoned critique of the choice of Brandon as the writer tasked with finishing the series. A few posters have disagreed and the thread - in which I haven't noticed any insults or rudeness - was promptly locked. I was a little shocked to see it, it looked quite officious on part of the Administrators.

I was a bit disappointed to see that thread closed down since it had several thoughtful and interesting replies. But I can understand and support the decision to close it since Team Jordan have been known to browse fan forums and Brandon's a registered member here. I sincerely hope he never saw that thread--he's already under a great deal of pressure and deserves better than to hear people debating whether he was the right choice.

So people should withhold opinions - even well reasoned and perfectly politely phrased opinions - that might upset the author? I'm sure he has a thick enough skin to deal with people debating such things - if he didn't, he would probably have given up on the internet a long time ago. Sanderson, like all authors, has his strengths and weaknesses. I'm sure that if he doesn't want to see people discussin them he knows how to avoid those discussions.

 

I agree. Moreover, sometimes having access to the free debate can be very helpful - one can take heart from the positive comments and learn someting helpful from the reasoned critique.Silencing critics will not remove the problems they are concerned for; it can only create some kind of artificial unanimity which has no value whatsoever. "Friends" who isolate somebody from potentially critical feedback are doing that person no favour at all. Not to mention that it runs counter to the very nature and purpose of the Internet forum.

[Elan Tedronai]

Come on everybody, some posters may have not been all that tactful but the changes w/ Mat between RJ and BS can not in anyway just be chalked up to character growth alone. There are huge differences in the quality and style of writing between the two. I never bought this marriage has changed him, if anything he came across as more juvenile for parts of TGS and ToM. Check out KoD post leaving the circus and the maldive narrow campaign if you want to see Mat growing into the man he should be.

 

But that ^ is a reasonable critique with an explanation on your viewpoint. Which is far different thant making up a rude name using Brandon's name and saying nothing but that his writing is shit.

 

Critiquing/criticizing is fine and valid. But the rudeness and put downs with no explanation as to why the writing fails to live up to their standards that other posters have done is completely unnecessary.

 

 

i just did that. critiquing and critcising sanderson. No insults or mocking. You know what happened? it earned me a locked a thread and 15 minutes of wasted time.

[Guest PiotrekS]

i was that poster who wrote a thread about sanderson and whether he should have been the author the other day. It got locked because it offended the sensibilities of the easily offended here.

 

i mean the message i got was ' discuss anything you like except this' what a friggin joke. Site censorship at its worst

 

Maybe this site values their relationship with team jordan/sanderson more than free speech

 

Locking the thread was a really strange decision - I can't really believe that either Brandon or Team Jordan would in truth expect their friends on this site to remove any critical speech from the forums they supervise - it would be really ridiculous. Especially since one can be sure that in the thread you started 90% of posts would be very positive about Brandon. Even if he somehow read such a discussion it could only make him proud that in a free and spontaneous debate most people decide to praise him. Now he won't have that chance...

 

Also the justification of locking the thread was pretty funny - if I recall, something like "before it turns into 8 pages of discussing opinions"... I was under the impression that discussing about opinions was the main purpose of such forums as this one. Apparently, I was wrong.

[sleepinghour]

So people should withhold opinions - even well reasoned and perfectly politely phrased opinions - that might upset the author? I'm sure he has a thick enough skin to deal with people debating such things - if he didn't, he would probably have given up on the internet a long time ago. Sanderson, like all authors, has his strengths and weaknesses. I'm sure that if he doesn't want to see people discussin them he knows how to avoid those discussions.

No, of course not. I have been a pretty vocal critic of how some characters (Cadsuane, Siuan, Lan) were portrayed in TGS and ToM. However, I support the decision to put a lid on threads like the one arguing that Brandon was the wrong choice to finish the series. Far from all posts in that thread were polite, and it could easily have gotten ugly after a few pages.

 

Also, in response to other replies, I want to make it clear that I was the only one saying I hoped Brandon wouldn't see that thread. The moderators may have closed it for other reasons entirely.

[Elan Tedronai]

sorry but if you look at that thread it was anything but nasty. No insults or mocking. it was going fine until the powers that be stumbled upon the the thread title and suddenly thought 'oh damn someone has had the audacity to criticise sanderson. We cant have that in here'

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

yeah, that partiular thread wasn't nasty and the lock struck me as odd, and perhaps was a reflection on the mod's feelings about the OP, but i don't really know. i've seen much worse flaming go on much longer.

 

but it is a private forum, so, it's their call. i've seen much worse censorship on other forums, and any whisper of a potential of criticism of other authors immediately deleted.

 

anyway, by letting this thread take its natural course, it seems they are willing to let people have their say.

 

or maybe the specificity of this thread is more in keeping with the general wheel of time discussion theme?

[Guest PiotrekS]

but it is a private forum, so, it's their call.

 

That's why nobody said they had had no right to close the thread. I'm simply offering my private opinion that it seemed odd to me - they can delete it, ignore it or think a little about it. Or maybe explain the reasoning behind their decision so the rules are clearer for the future.

 

i've seen much worse censorship on other forums, and any whisper of a potential of criticism of other authors immediately deleted.

That's sad.

 

anyway, by letting this thread take its natural course, it seems they are willing to let people have their say.

Apparently so.