Are the Amyrlin and Dragon Equal?

[MasterAblar]

Verin told Rand in WH that the Seanchan have started entering Illian again:

 

“Oh, yes. The Seanchan. They are in Illian. Not the city, not yet; no need to go pale. But they have crossed the border. They are building fortified camps along the coast and inland.

 

More than a year later.

I don't follow. An year later than what?

 

For the record, I think Rand did indeed won the campaign against the Seanchan in PoD, I just wanted to correct the earlier posted notion that the Seanchan haven't tried attacking Illian after that.

 

True, they did eventually return, but what I meant, and what I think Randsc is saying, is that they're not in as much of a hurry to attack it again and are being much more cautious this time around, which win's Rand a lot of time. Rand would have had to face the Seanchan much soone in a much greater battle if it were not for his earlier premptive strike.

[Muad Cheade]

He did stop them. That's simply a fact. I'll agree that he didn't alter their long term plans, but he sure as hell changed their priorities.

 

At best, it was a victory, at worst, a draw. They tried to take Illian. They did not take Illian. You want to try to spin that into a victory?

So he succeeded in throwing them into the sea and taking Ebou Dar? Right. Rand meant to stop the Seanchan completely and he failed. And the Seanchan changed Rand's priorities as well. He realized he could not continue fighting them and he must make peace. Which is why he knelt.

 

And I still don't know why there's an argument that he won when the Lord Dragon himself and his Great Captain Bashere concede it's a loss.

[plague fiend]

How was it a victory? It wasn't even a pyrrhic victory. It didn't halt the Seanchan nor did it give Rand any tactical advantage or even convince him he could beat the Seanchan before Tarmon Gai'din. Also, if both sides think it's a loss then no one won.

 

Yeah...read the jacket cover of Path of Daggers. In addition, Rand had decided to take Ebou Dar, because "no one would expect that." And of course it never happened, Rand lost. Or drew. Whichever you prefer.

 

And like I said, at worst it was a loss, at best a draw. Rand didn't stop the Seanchan nor did he alter their plans.

 

I think your looking at this wrong. To force an enemy to do what they don't want to do is a win. The battles were written the way they were for a reason. If Rand wanted to kill them all he could have. You do remember he cleansed the taint right?

[MasterAblar]

He did stop them. That's simply a fact. I'll agree that he didn't alter their long term plans, but he sure as hell changed their priorities.

 

At best, it was a victory, at worst, a draw. They tried to take Illian. They did not take Illian. You want to try to spin that into a victory?

So he succeeded in throwing them into the sea and taking Ebou Dar? Right. Rand meant to stop the Seanchan completely and he failed. And the Seanchan changed Rand's priorities as well. He realized he could not continue fighting them and he must make peace. Which is why he knelt.

 

And I still don't know why there's an argument that he won when the Lord Dragon himself and his Great Captain Bashere concede it's a loss.

 

You're only looking at that last battle. Yes that one was not a victory, but did the Seanchan succeed? They certainly don't think so. They consider that last battle to have been a defeat, just as Rand does (I don't think Bashere's thoughts on it are ever given. Both sides are unaware of the fact that the other side got hit as well. And rumours say that the Dragon's armies won if Berelain is to be believed. Now those are only rumours but still.

The whole campaign though was clearly in Rand's favor. Look at how the Seanchan are reacting in the commander's tent shortly before the last battle.

Th whole campaign's point was never to utterly defeat the Seanchan, it was to slow them down and warn them off. That he succeeded in doing. Then he streched his hand a little farther than was wise (though again if it wasn't for Callandor's flaw, which Rand could not have predicted, his last attack would have succeeded, so it wasn't really the Seanchan that stopped him) and only managed a draw, depending on who got hit the most by the lighting.

In any case this doesn't really say anything about Rand's ability to defeat the Seanchan since he only took a fraction of his troops, and the least trustworthy at that.

 

Look at it this way: what would have happened had Rand never attacked the Seanchan?

 

Also, when did he kneel?

[randsc]

He didn't kneel. Maud Chaud is once again imagining things. Next, he'll try to make us dig graves for a grove of oak trees.

[Puny]

He didn't kneel. Maud Chaud is once again imagining things. Next, he'll try to make us dig graves for a grove of oak trees.

 

Lol... the oaks fought bravely and deserve a proper burial.

 

 

Victory in battle is not only about crushing the enemy, it can be about slowing them down, or making them change their plans, making them fear you and making them hesitant to strike again.

[Kahsm]

To any Americans out there who are recently out of school. What's the general feeling you get about the War of 1812? Because when I was in school we Canadians tended to get the idea we won because we were defending ourselves and succeeded. I've heard (though I'm very aware this could be due to Canadian filtering) that Americans are taught it was a draw.

 

Seems like a pretty good parallel. It all depends on perspective. I'm no history buff but IIRC, both sides took and lost some land, then they signed a peace treaty and gave most of it back.

 

I'm not saying that's right or wrong. Just seemed to be a parallel as to how the result is going to be defined by whatever side you're on. The fact that Rand seemed to feel quite disappointed with the result suggests a double loss to me, even if he did halt the advance, that wasn't their goal. While Canadians claim (though I doubt it's true) that their intent was only to stop the American invasion.

 

Though I suppose you could claim it's not so black and white, and that "winning" is more a sliding scale and that Rand won more than the Seanchan did, even if you can't quite call it an out-and-out victory.

[MasterAblar]

To any Americans out there who are recently out of school. What's the general feeling you get about the War of 1812? Because when I was in school we Canadians tended to get the idea we won because we were defending ourselves and succeeded. I've heard (though I'm very aware this could be due to Canadian filtering) that Americans are taught it was a draw.

 

Seems like a pretty good parallel. It all depends on perspective. I'm no history buff but IIRC, both sides took and lost some land, then they signed a peace treaty and gave most of it back.

 

I'm not saying that's right or wrong. Just seemed to be a parallel as to how the result is going to be defined by whatever side you're on. The fact that Rand seemed to feel quite disappointed with the result suggests a double loss to me, even if he did halt the advance, that wasn't their goal. While Canadians claim (though I doubt it's true) that their intent was only to stop the American invasion.

 

Though I suppose you could claim it's not so black and white, and that "winning" is more a sliding scale and that Rand won more than the Seanchan did, even if you can't quite call it an out-and-out victory.

 

Rand's goal was to stop the Seanchan advance. And the Seanchan are just as disappointed as Rand is. Difference is Rand won all the battles before the last one whereas the Seanchan lost every one.

[Suttree]

If Rand wanted to kill them all he could have. You do remember he cleansed the taint right?

 

Actually he tried to do that and failed.

 

Muade is correct in that Rand stated he was going to throw the Seanchan back into the sea and take Ebou Dar. Did either of those things happen? No. Don't know why people are acting like his goal was to only stop the advance. The proof is in TPoD.

 

"I mean to drive the Seanchan into the sea!" Rand snapped. Light he had to finish the now when he had the chance."

 

 

If he had listened to Bashere it would have been a victory, as is both men conceded it was a loss. This is in the books, whatever other posters say can't change that. Both sides viewed it as a a loss but the Seanchan eventually continued the advance into Illian.

 

Well now, I'm convinced. All it took was your assurance that only certain people are necessary, with no line of reasoning to back it up, and I'm blown away.

 

HAHA so good, these posts by the OP have stopped being even remotely acceptable long ago.

 

Actually, it's nothing like that at all. And no, it doesn't "go beyond a mere dislike of Egwene and the Tower."

 

Good God man have you been reading xxx47's posts?

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

if this thread is a focus for genuine hatred, and not just trolling, then i am very glad it is here. because all that hatred focused on anything in the real world would be. . . bad.

 

i do like the way they've decided to merge all the egwene bashing threads into one on TL, though.

[MasterAblar]

If Rand wanted to kill them all he could have. You do remember he cleansed the taint right?

 

Actually he tried to do that and failed.

 

Muade is correct in that Rand stated he was going to throw the Seanchan back into the sea and take Ebou Dar. Did either of those things happen? No. Don't know why people are acting like his goal was to only stop the advance. The proof is in TPoD.

 

"I mean to drive the Seanchan into the sea!" Rand snapped. Light he had to finish the now when he had the chance."

 

 

If he had listened to Bashere it would have been a victory, as is both men conceded it was a loss. This is in the books, whatever other posters say can't change that. Both sides viewed it as a a loss but the Seanchan eventually continued the advance into Illian.

 

 

Rand's initial plan was not to throw the Seanchan into the sea, it was just to force them back, which he succeeded in doing, it only became that after he saw how successful his campaign against them was, at the very end. That doesn't change all his previous victories over them. So yes he failed in that last objective. However the Seanchan failed in their objective too which was too wipe out Rand's entire army.

 

If Rand had listened to Bashere it would not have been a victory because that last battle would never have happened. The Seanchan lost way more before that last battle, and lost just as much as Rand in the last battle. Even if Rand did not utterly crush the Seanchan, he still hit them very, very hard.

 

Neither Rand nor Bashere ever said the whole campaign was a defeat. Rand thought the last battle was a defeat. It wasn't, it was a draw, since the Seanchan lost as much as Rand.

 

The Seanchan eventually resumed their advance yes but long after, and they went much slower which gained Rand time. If Rand had never attacked the Seanchan, he would have had a much bigger battle on his hands soon after, and that's not something he could afford.

 

And Rand never tried to utterly destroy them all. If he was he would taken a much greater force with him. He also said at the end, right before the last battle, that he wouldn't let them have more then Amadicia and Tarabon, so clearly he never intended to attack them there.

[Himiko]

I don't really see how Rand or Egwene are braver than eachother. How does Egwene really have a choice? Is she a moral person, does she have a conscience? Then she never really had a choice. But that doesn't make what she did anything but extremely brave. Just like the fact that Rand's actions are just as brave despite the fact that he had no choice in the matter, because as Tam said if Rand had the choice he would not have done differently. And that because Rand is a moral person with a conscience, and because he like Egwene do not ignore their responsability to the world. Therefore just as Egwene acted responsible when she refused to be a puppet and choose to right the WT, Rand was just as responsible when he finaly accepted that he was the Dragon.

 

As for Rand taking a book (tGH) to accept that he was the Dragon, I think that can be forgiven when you consider just what it means to be the Dragon, and in any case Egwene has never had to face that.

 

I don't see the whole bravery argument as holding much water, TBH. Rand was forced into a lot- leaving the Two Rivers, becoming the Dragon Reborn, etc- but he has accepted his destiny and risen to the occasion since then. Egwene at first gave off the impression of a girl wanting adventure- she leaves the Two Rivers, she determines to become AS, etc- but she is also forced into a lot of situations- hunting the Black Ajah, becoming Amyrlin, etc- and chooses to rise to the challenge. Whatever you think of how well they've risen to the challenges of leadership and other roles, at least they have tried, and that is a point in both of their favours.

 

However, I also agree that claiming Egwene is braver because Rand took longer to embrace his destiny and rise to the situation- look at it this way: Egwene goes into dangerous situations (sometimes- I wouldn't say her deciding to go to the White Tower is, in itself, any more dangerous than any of the other girls who choose to journey to Tar Valon), but with the knowledge that, if she makes it out of that situation intact, she will be rewarded in some way- she will be Aes Sedai, she will be a more powerful and effective dreamer, she will be the Amyrlin Seat of a united White Tower, one of the most powerful people in the world. Rand, on the other hand, goes into dangerous situations knowing that, if he comes out of them alive, then he gets the fabulous reward of going mad, possibly killing everyone he knows, and, if he manages to avert that, probably dying at the Last Battle. They are two very, very different situations.

 

 

Egwene thinks so!!..in fact ,I think she thinks she is superior considering that she demands that he "submit" to the tower.

 

I don't think that Egwene believes that she is superior to Rand. I think that she believes that the AS and the tower are in a fragile state right now and she unwisely is trying to project strength and unbending will. The AS, Egwene included will realize the severity of that mistake.

 

I think you might have a point here. Its less that Egwene and the AS think that the DR is inferior (though there may be some that think that), and much more to do with the idea that the vast majority of AS, including Egwene, seem to hold- that they should always appear strong, that they should appear in control, they should take command, because that is what AS do. This can be seen as a positive or negative thing, but at this time, with the tower only recently reunited, and their internal issues very much revealed to the world, I imagine most of the AS, including ones that we haven't seen who are interacting with the citizens of the world outside the Tower, want more than ever to give off the impression of strength, unity and control. Something that, as many channelers, both male and female are learning, does not always produce the best result. Which is why, instead of trying to to talk to the Dragon Reborn as an equal, or starting their conversation with a formal apology on behalf of the Tower for Elaida's treatment of him, we get "Have you come to submit yourself to the authority of the Tower?"

 

As for this whole thing of "Argh, all the AS should kneel before Rand", you're entitled to your opinion, but please try and keep things in perspective. There is sexism prevalent in the series- one could argue that Rand mourning only the women he'd killed was sexist against both genders, in fact- and a lot of women seem to believe that men are idiots, and potentially dangerous- they broke the world, after all. But by and large, men are not forced to kneel before women and tell them how superior they are. The AS as a group, yes, they're arrogant, rulers bow before them, etc. and often they make mistakes that they refuse to see or admit to as a result of their arrogance, and their tendency to seize charge, or attempt to. But then, some of the male channelers we've seen have not been shining examples of humility, either, I'd say its a general "power-crazed" trait that seems to affect a lot of channelers- they can do something other people can't, therefore they act as though they are superior in general.

 

That said, I don't believe they, or anyone else, should be on their knees before Rand. Acknowledge that HE will lead the battle against the Dark One, yes. Treat him with respect, as a powerful channeler and their ally against the Shadow, yes. Advise and help him with any knowledge they have. Battle the Dark One's forces at TG. Some people reading this series seem far too keen to balance the arrogance of the AS by having them subjugated to Rand and the male channelers, much like I've read some people's opinions in the real world claiming that men should be treated as second class citizens, lose rights, etc. because that's what women had to put up with. Its stupid revenge politics, and would lead to a world just as unbalanced as before. I don't doubt that the AS will be humbled, but I imagine it will be because other channeling organisations will spring up, male channelers will want their place as equals, and the WT and Tar Valon will not hold the same political sway as they used to. They will be brought down to Earth. They, and anyone else in the world, should not have to be on their knees to the Dragon, respect and servitude are two very different things.

[Suttree]

And Rand never tried to utterly destroy them all.

 

TPoD "A time for Iron"

"I mean to find the rest of the Seanchan army and destroy it, Bashere"

 

You can hardly say his failure doesn't matter because of what his initial plan was. As LLT says "No plan of battle survives first contact" you can't just cherry pick the good while ignoring the bad.

 

BTW how good is LTT's commentary in this chapter. RJ at his best for sure...

[AshaShan]

Re: the Altara Campaign.

 

Lets say I'm a general. I take a force of about 5k troops and engage an army of several hundred thousand highly professional soldiers, successfully outmaneuver and destroy alot of them in order to inspire their commander to bunch the rest of his forces into one big army, then produce and fire a WMD at said army, destroying it almost utterly. Now lets say that my WMD turned out to have been poorly constructed by the tech boys back home and the blast radius kills several of my own troops, leading me to withdraw from the field in a fit of depression. How does that change the fact that I just outfought, outsmarted, outmaneuvered and ultimately destroyed an army many times the size of my own?

 

Even before gaining LTT's memories, Rand was a more than decent General. You guys trying to say that Egwene, who has never commanded an army in the field, is his equal in that regard are delusional.

 

Re: the oh-so-predictable deployment of the Sexist Card.

 

Let me tell you guys a little story. There once was a world where women could not wield magic safely and men could. In this world there was a prophecied saviour named the Phoenix Reborn. Turns out that saviours real name was Rachel al'Thor and she had an arranged match with a boy named Edward al'Vere. Rachel didn't seem to like Edward all that much, but they were paired off and she was a dutiful sort. Edward spent much of his time reminding Rachel of what a woolhead she was and how women really could not be trusted to make any decisions themselves and should always do what their menfolk told them. Then they both found out the Rachel was the Phoenix. She rose quickly in prominence, winning great battles, slaying legendary foes, gaining leadership over many peoples. He, Edward, remained just a fairly average guy in comparison but that didn't stop him from taking every opportunity to remind Rachel of how dumb she was and urge her to do whatever the nearest male authority figure said. Rachel responded with studious aloofness and went right ahead winning her battles, slaying her foes, and oh, cleansing the female half of the One Power so the rather sexist behaviour of people like Edward could no longer be justified. Edward meanwhile finally got his ticket out of obscurity and rose throught the ranks of the all-male priesthood that dominated the culture of the land. An all-male priesthood that consistently displayed their arrogance, ignorance, treachery, cruelty, selfishness and utter bigotry with regards to females. Efforts to persuade them to mend their ways are greated with cold disdain. But Edward decides they are the greatest organisation in human history and sets about trying to prove that to everyone else. His first order of business? To remind Rachel of how inferior she has always been and ask if she has finally come to submit to his authority. When she doesn't he sets out to persuade all the people who Rachel has gathered behind her to follow him instead, nevermind that it is the eve of Tarmon Gaidon and the Phoenix is the only one who can save them all.

 

Now, personally I think that anyone who doesn't like my Edward character, and feels he is in need of being knocked down a few pegs preferably by Rachel, is a sexist pig who just hates men. Wouldn't you agree?

[David Selig]

Even before gaining LTT's memories, Rand was a more than decent General.

No, he was not. He know just enough to leave strategy to the likes of Bashere, Mat, Rhuarc, etc, and to have an idea what they are talking about, but that was it. His plan for the Seanchan campaign "I'd take 5000 troops (Led mostly by people who either hate me or I don't trust) and 50 Asha'man" was stupid and made the whole thing much more difficult than it could've been. given that he had a zillion Aiel and hundreds of Asha'man which he could've used to crush the Seanchan with ease. Not to mention that he almost got killed even before the Callandor incident because he gave the likes of Weiramon control of the troops who were supposed to guard him. The only reason the campaign was going well before "A time for Iron" was that Travelling gave Rand's troops huge tactical advantage.

[capuga]

Even before gaining LTT's memories, Rand was a more than decent General.

No, he was not. He know just enough to leave strategy to the likes of Bashere, Mat, Rhuarc, etc, and to have an idea what they are talking about, but that was it. His plan for the Seanchan campaign "I'd take 5000 troops (Led mostly by people who either hate me or I don't trust) and 50 Asha'man" was stupid and made the whole thing much more difficult than it could've been. given that he had a zillion Aiel and hundreds of Asha'man which he could've used to crush the Seanchan with ease. Not to mention that he almost got killed even before the Callandor incident because he gave the likes of Weiramon control of the troops who were supposed to guard him. The only reason the campaign was going well before "A time for Iron" was that Travelling gave Rand's troops huge tactical advantage.

 

And how do you suppose he could have deployed his guerilla tactics in the closed confines of the mountains with a larger force then he had? He brought along the proper amount of troops to utilize the (very effective) tactics that he was using during that campaign. Bringing the Aiel along to engage in a large scale pitched battle would have forced a change in location, tactics, troop and supply movements, drawn troops away from other areas where they were necessary, etc. The one and only mistake he made during the whole campaign was continuing to press his advantage instead of leaving well enough alone. And even that would have worked out just fine if he had any way of knowing that Callandor was flawed.

[MasterAblar]

And Rand never tried to utterly destroy them all.

 

TPoD "A time for Iron"

"I mean to find the rest of the Seanchan army and destroy it, Bashere"

 

You can hardly say his failure doesn't matter because of what his initial plan was. As LLT says "No plan of battle survives first contact" you can't just cherry pick the good while ignoring the bad.

 

BTW how good is LTT's commentary in this chapter. RJ at his best for sure...

 

Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant he never tried to completely clear the Seanchan off of Randland. He never attacked them in Amadicia or Tarabon. He only tried to rid Altara of them, and that only after seeing how well he was doing.

 

I'm not saying his failure in the last battle doesn't mean anything, but it's like only doing so-so on the bonus question when you aced the rest of the test.

As far as what it means as a general, there was really no way he could have predicted the flaw in Callandor, so in that sense the Seanchan got lucky. However admitidly he should not have pressed his luck when he had already achieved so much. That was a mistake, even if Callandor gave him a good reason to risk it.

He achieved his initial objectives and then tried for more. He didn't succeed completely in the latter (the Seanchan still got hit really hard), but that doesn't take away his success in the former.

 

Personally I've always loved LTT almost anytime he's intervened. This passage was not an exception. Simply brilliant.

[MasterAblar]

Even before gaining LTT's memories, Rand was a more than decent General.

No, he was not. He know just enough to leave strategy to the likes of Bashere, Mat, Rhuarc, etc, and to have an idea what they are talking about, but that was it. His plan for the Seanchan campaign "I'd take 5000 troops (Led mostly by people who either hate me or I don't trust) and 50 Asha'man" was stupid and made the whole thing much more difficult than it could've been. given that he had a zillion Aiel and hundreds of Asha'man which he could've used to crush the Seanchan with ease. Not to mention that he almost got killed even before the Callandor incident because he gave the likes of Weiramon control of the troops who were supposed to guard him. The only reason the campaign was going well before "A time for Iron" was that Travelling gave Rand's troops huge tactical advantage.

 

He didn't bring along the most trustworthy on purpose, he wanted to rid himself of those he did not trust. And as Mark Grayson said the numbers he took were fitting for that type guerrilla warfare. Which goes to show that he never planned to go into a fullout war against the Seanchan. Not unless it was absolutely necessary.

 

The Seanchan general's thoughts in the last scene show pretty well what the seachan think of how Rand's campaign went.

[David Selig]

Yeah, Rand brought he didn't trust on purpose,but it was still stupid and predictably almost led to his death when Weiramon "accidentally" left his post and left Rand exposed. Surrounding yourself with people you don't trust without a trusted core of soldiers to guard your back during a military campaign is a pretty dumb idea.

 

And I am not saying he should've brought 300 000 or something like that - but what was effective with 5 000 average troops and 50 Asha'man would've been even more effective with 15 000 Aiel and 150 Asha'man, and would've been much less riskier for him personally.

[Dagon Thyne]

In terms of the One Power, Rand is stronger. Time being trained, Egwene longer.

In terms of age, Rand is older.

Daes Daemar, Rand seems more skilled/experienced.

general knowledge, Rand seems to know more.

overall sanity, Egwene might have an advantage there.

 

 

Where does Egwene think herself or her role equal with Dragon Reborn?

For sure nowhere in first 12 books.

 

You are forgetting that Rand has the memories of his formal life and all of the training that LTT recieved during his life. Rand has hundreds of years of experience, in addition to all of training he recieved in his current life.

[MasterAblar]

Yeah, Rand brought he didn't trust on purpose,but it was still stupid and predictably almost led to his death when Weiramon "accidentally" left his post and left Rand exposed. Surrounding yourself with people you don't trust without a trusted core of soldiers to guard your back during a military campaign is a pretty dumb idea.

 

And I am not saying he should've brought 300 000 or something like that - but what was effective with 5 000 average troops and 50 Asha'man would've been even more effective with 15 000 Aiel and 150 Asha'man, and would've been much less riskier for him personally.

 

Well of course, and I agree if you're going to fight a battle you bring the people you trust. That's just plain sense, And Rand knows it. But he decided to take a risk. And he's rather famous for his lack of caring about his well being. He probably should have brought a guard that he trusted though, but the best placed for that were the Aiel and I'm not even sure he told them about his campaign in Altara. He did have the ashaman though.

[Suttree]

She rose quickly in prominence, winning great battles, slaying legendary foes, gaining leadership over many peoples.

 

Funny thing is this could very well refer to Egwene as well.

 

I know you are using hyperbole in an attempt to make a point but first order of business ask Rand if he has come to submit to her authority? Come on man. People seem to forget(ignore?) now that she reunited the tower and rooted out forsaken and BA she is already initiating changes to bring the AS back closer to their true purpose. The sexist card may get used to often but in the case of the OP, there is an obvious obsession and tedious negative focus on Egwene and the AS. Just look at all the topics recently started by xxx. I think all most people want is equal credit given on both sides, attempts to downplay and tear down one(often in drastic terms) while glorifying the other just doesn't sit well with most.

[Majsju]

I find it quite absurd this thread has reached 7 pages, as the initial question is absurd in itself.

 

Rand and Egwene can not be compared, since their roles are completely different. Egwene is a political leader, Rand is the bloke destined to defeat the DO. Obviously their paths will have to cross, but they can not, and should not be compared with eachother. It's like asking if Churchill and whoever was in charge of the RAF during the Blitz were equals.

[Guest PiotrekS]

The argument that Egwene is braver because she choose her path and Rand did not is extremely silly. I choose to fight fires for a living. That doesn't make me automatically braver than a random passerby who pulls people from a burning building (the opposite is very probably true). Bravery is in the action, not in how you came to find yourself in a position to act.

I would disagree with that analogy - I see it as more like a man trapped in a burning building and another man outside, firefighter or not. The man in the building can stay put and hope for rescue, or try and find his way out, but he has no choice about being in a burning building. The man outside doesn't have to run in to save people - he has a choice about whether or not he puts himself in danger. And I see a willingness to put your life at risk as being braver (if usually also more foolish) than finding your life in danger and merely trying to survive.

 

But you fail to see that Rand's and Egwene's burning houses are completely different (to continue your analogy). Rand knows that if he enters this huge inferno, the best he can hope for is save others while he himself dies in pain. Egwene is faced with a relatively small fire - she can quite easily put it out, receive prizes, distinctions, promotions and enjoy her career, high position and simply life long afterwards.

Rand is destiny's slave and in the same time its personification, Egwene is just a person with an important office. Smart and strong etc., but so are many others.

 

To adress a general point: some posters have said that Egwene is equally necessary as Rand is for world's survival. Others went even further and stated that everybody was necessary. This way of thinking, although compatible with our modern ideas of fundamental human equality, stands the whole premise of the series on its head. These are the books about the saviour who isn't some average person picked by random selection or electoral process. Even though we may find this lack of equality not to our liking, that's how the world is constructed by RJ. Though Egwene will undoubtedly play important part in the last book, the basic rules of the world theoretically allow for her to be replaced by somebody else and the Last Battle still could be won (at least we don't know anything that would point otherwise). We know that Moiraine, Rand, Perrin and Mat are absolutely necessary.

 

Rand and Egwene can not be compared, since their roles are completely different. Egwene is a political leader, Rand is the bloke destined to defeat the DO. Obviously their paths will have to cross, but they can not, and should not be compared with eachother. It's like asking if Churchill and whoever was in charge of the RAF during the Blitz were equals.

 

I agree with you, but there are many thoughtful posters who somehow see it completety differently. I can't grasp how

TGS did a lot to place Rand and Egwene in somehow equivalent positions and at least suggested that they were main heroes, male-female counterparts. That's one of the reasons I disliked this book (the others being its language and Hinderstrap)- not because of my hidden misogyny (I'm more of a philogynist ) - but because it was incompatible with all the other books which were crystal clear that Dragon was special and crucial for the Last Battle, more than anybody else.

[Suttree]

Egwene is faced with a relatively small fire - she can quite easily put it out, receive prizes, distinctions, promotions and enjoy her career, high position and simply life long afterwards.

 

The Amrylin...facing TG with a divided tower, filled with forskan and BA and you call that a small fire!?!?

 

To adress a general point: some posters have said that Egwene is equally necessary as Rand is for world's survival. Others went even further and stated that everybody was necessary. This way of thinking, although compatible with our modern ideas of fundamental human equality, stands the whole premise of the series on its head. These are the books about the saviour who isn't some average person picked by random selection or electoral process. Even though we may find this lack of equality not to our liking, that's how the world is constructed by RJ. Though Egwene will undoubtedly play important part in the last book, the basic rules of the world theoretically allow for her to be replaced by somebody else and the Last Battle still could be won (at least we don't know anything that would point otherwise). We know that Moiraine, Rand, Perrin and Mat are absolutely necessary.

 

I think people are taking the whole "pattern can correct itself again and again no matter what happens" much to far. Each thread was placed and put into play so far in advance. Without people like Tigraine, Gitara, Nynaeve, Egwene etc can not just be swapped out at the last minute!