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Are the Amyrlin and Dragon Equal?


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Nobody is Rands equal. Id say the only things that come even close are Mat, Callandor and the Horn. The rest is all expendable, replaceable. Hell, even Mat is replaceable. Rand isnt. Dragon Ta'veren isnt something one can aspire to.

 

 

Surely you can replace "Dragon" with another as long as prophecies made it so? Imagine for past 3000 years people were reading a certain guy will be born in certain area and will lead the forces of light and that person is NOT DRAGON (word is not mentioned). What do you think will be the end result?

 

I am wondering why was he picked to lead the force of light? Because he is the only who understands failure and probably will not do something stupid, again?

 

P.S: I agree though that champion of light is irreplaceable. It could be anyone though. I guess that's what you were trying to say.

 

 

It cannot be anyone..in these 2 ages it could be only one soul..Rand/LTT

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Nobody is Rands equal. Id say the only things that come even close are Mat, Callandor and the Horn. The rest is all expendable, replaceable. Hell, even Mat is replaceable. Rand isnt. Dragon Ta'veren isnt something one can aspire to.

 

 

Surely you can replace "Dragon" with another as long as prophecies made it so? Imagine for past 3000 years people were reading a certain guy will be born in certain area and will lead the forces of light and that person is NOT DRAGON (word is not mentioned). What do you think will be the end result?

 

I am wondering why was he picked to lead the force of light? Because he is the only who understands failure and probably will not do something stupid, again?

 

P.S: I agree though that champion of light is irreplaceable. It could be anyone though. I guess that's what you were trying to say.

 

 

It cannot be anyone..in these 2 ages it could be only one soul..Rand/LTT

 

 

Why?

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Nobody is Rands equal. Id say the only things that come even close are Mat, Callandor and the Horn. The rest is all expendable, replaceable. Hell, even Mat is replaceable. Rand isnt. Dragon Ta'veren isnt something one can aspire to.

 

 

Surely you can replace "Dragon" with another as long as prophecies made it so? Imagine for past 3000 years people were reading a certain guy will be born in certain area and will lead the forces of light and that person is NOT DRAGON (word is not mentioned). What do you think will be the end result?

 

I am wondering why was he picked to lead the force of light? Because he is the only who understands failure and probably will not do something stupid, again?

 

P.S: I agree though that champion of light is irreplaceable. It could be anyone though. I guess that's what you were trying to say.

 

Yea, basically I was saying, Champion dude is irreplaceable. If it doesnt mention the word Dragon then thats merely not referring to Lews Therin, I only used the word Dragon because in the books thats what we know him as-Dragon or Dragon Reborn.

 

I dont even think Rands role is necessarily to lead the forces of Light. Champion dude, whatever his incarnation is called, is just a thread in the Pattern thats jam-packed with all the super uber qualities to equip him for the job. Which would be capped channeling ability, Pattern-affecting will, capped Ta'veren strength, yada yada (and past life memories, in my oppinion, but not necessarily every incarnation). Doesnt matter if the term Dragon comes into it (ultimately the name Dragon is a manmade decorative title)

 

Also I think the Horn of Valere is supposed to be the Lights plan B if Champion dude goes Dark. At the end of the day if Rand was evil like in TGS, what could stand against him? He knows he can bend the Pattern to his will, so basically, not much can kill him. Somewhere RJ mentioned Horn vs Dragon would create a rift in the Pattern, I reckon that rift is what unDragons an evil Dragon (as in, removes his Ta'veren thingy) and makes him just a normal evil channeler.

 

(Apparantly the Horn was originally made to summon musicians? But that obviously isnt what its for now)

Edited by Drekka Mort
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Nobody is Rands equal. Id say the only things that come even close are Mat, Callandor and the Horn. The rest is all expendable, replaceable. Hell, even Mat is replaceable. Rand isnt. Dragon Ta'veren isnt something one can aspire to.

 

 

Surely you can replace "Dragon" with another as long as prophecies made it so? Imagine for past 3000 years people were reading a certain guy will be born in certain area and will lead the forces of light and that person is NOT DRAGON (word is not mentioned). What do you think will be the end result?

 

I am wondering why was he picked to lead the force of light? Because he is the only who understands failure and probably will not do something stupid, again?

 

P.S: I agree though that champion of light is irreplaceable. It could be anyone though. I guess that's what you were trying to say.

 

 

It cannot be anyone..in these 2 ages it could be only one soul..Rand/LTT

 

 

Why?

 

 

Because which soul the champion of the light is for every age is fixed...it may not be the dragon soul for all ages but it is so for these 2 ages.

Edited by XXX47
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Guest PiotrekS

 

 

(Apparantly the Horn was originally made to summon musicians? But that obviously isnt what its for now)

 

That was a joke.

 

Wasn't it Gillespie's horn? Full of the power of bebop :wink: At least that's what I remember from the Podcast interview with Alan and Maria from Team Jordan.Quite funny :smile:

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Because which soul the champion of the light is for every age is fixed...it may not be the dragon soul for all ages but it is so for these 2 ages.

 

?? Every age needs a champion of light?

 

 

End of every age is a battle with the DO..so yes I guess a champion of the light is needed.

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Because which soul the champion of the light is for every age is fixed...it may not be the dragon soul for all ages but it is so for these 2 ages.

 

?? Every age needs a champion of light?

 

 

End of every age is a battle with the DO..so yes I guess a champion of the light is needed.

 

 

The champion of light has turned to the shadow in the past, and yet the DO seems to be quite locked up. So apparently it is quite possible to save the day not only without the Dragon, but with him actively fighting against the light.

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Those situations turns into a draw, most likely resulting in quite a lot of destruction to the light side.

 

Well, considering how the AOL ended, there can be quite a bit of destruction even if the light wins. So I would say speculations about any eventual destruction are quite irrelevant here.

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Wait a minute, Rand took the Choedan Kal and tried to destroy the Seanchan with it?

 

You have read the series, I'm assuming you understand Rand tried to use callandor(more than sufficient power for the task) to destroy the Seanchan during that battle and failed. Not sure why you would try to act ignorant on that count?

 

If Gitara had died before Rand was born, maybe Elaida would have had a Foretelling about his birth in front of Siuan and Moiraine and died afterwards.

 

What I was trying to convey here is how intricate the pattern truly is. If Gitara hadnt convinced Tigraine to go to the waste, Rand would not even have been born. This is the last battle, and a very complex sequence of events has to happen in the right order for the light to stand a chance. Many people have played roles to get things in their proper place, to diminish the accomplishments of any of them or act like they can be substituted endlessly would make the whole story fairly pointless.

In point of fact, I have read the series... Callandor is flawed and is the reason for Rands withdraw. You may wish to reread that section. Comparing Callandor and the power the access key gave him is like comparing a 22 pistol and a cruise missle. Perhaps your own ignorance has gotten the better of you.

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Those situations turns into a draw, most likely resulting in quite a lot of destruction to the light side.

 

Well, considering how the AOL ended, there can be quite a bit of destruction even if the light wins. So I would say speculations about any eventual destruction are quite irrelevant here.

 

But the Light didn't really win, since the DO managed to "corrupt" LTT via the taint, albeit somewhat belatedly. I always imagined the Breaking to be more of a "draw" ending, and less a "Light wins" ending.

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The champion of light has turned to the shadow in the past, and yet the DO seems to be quite locked up. So apparently it is quite possible to save the day not only without the Dragon, but with him actively fighting against the light.

 

Unless the Champion of the Light and the Dragon aren't always the same person.

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The champion of light has turned to the shadow in the past, and yet the DO seems to be quite locked up. So apparently it is quite possible to save the day not only without the Dragon, but with him actively fighting against the light.

 

Unless the Champion of the Light and the Dragon aren't always the same person.

 

There was a moment when Rand said to Ishamael that he had never joined the Dark side and that he was sure of it. I got the impression it was true (maybe some leaking memories from LTT?).

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(3)OP skill: no comparison, LTT was the greatest in AoL.
What about Rand? Also, greatest in the AoL doesn't necessarily mean he is more skilled than Egwene. She was not around in the AoL, after all.

 

(4)Will power: Much greater than Egwene, even though Egwene has considerable will power. Think of what Rand faced and overcame vs. Egwene.
What of opportunity? If Rand has faced greater hardships without breaking, but Egwene has not been tested to her limit, then there is nothing to say that Rand has greater willpower.

 

(7)IQ? Rand, genius intellect, how quickly he learns, given what he faced and overcome, his strategy to take out Grandael (brilliant), the way he played Egwene in book 13, and what Demandred says about LTT "brilliant" (cleansing of saidin), defeating Shai'tan once, and will again.
Seldom has the term genius been so badly abused. Poor, poor genius. His strategy to take out Graendal was competent, but nothing special - and it failed. He played Egwene - but to what end? He got her to get everyone together for a big meeting - something she probably would have done if he'd asked her. Doing things the hard way is a sign of genius now? And even then, getting the better of someone once does not prove you are smarter than them. He defeated Shai'tan and in the process tainted the Source, drove all the male channelers mad and broke the world. Is that really the work of a genius?

 

One cannot ever separate the Rand 'personality' from LTT, memory leakages occurred throughout series.

I disagree, it is entirely possible to separate the two personalities.
LTT, 400 years+ channeling experience, greatest of AoL. Let's get real. No contest, why you even bring this up is puzzling. In the skill category, she is so far beneath Rand, not even in the same universe.
Rand wasn't around in the AoL, nor was Egwene. Therefore who was the greatest of the AoL is unimportant. Also, even if someone was the greatest of the AoL, it is not the AoL now, so they could potentially be surpassed.

 

Egwene is not even the most skilled AS in this Age. Nynaeve for instance learns a Weave at after first glance, FAR FAR more skilled. 100 AS Weaves, Nyaneve found them easy, Egwene said they were complex and she has not remembered them all.
So you've proved, at best, that Egwene isn't the most skilled of this Age, that Nynaeve surpasses her. Fine - but last time I checked Nynaeve wasn't Rand, therefore Nynaeve being better than Egwene doesn't mean Rand is. Would you care to provide supporting evidence?

 

 

Think of their collar experience. The male adam, Semirhage sends out pain through it, he did not let it affect him, Egwene would scream like a little girl, like any other damane as sul'dam punish them. He lost a hand, thought nothing of it. You can bet Egwene would be screaming like a little girl. Avienhda is amazed that he can stand that much pain (after they are Bonded). Even the Wise Women were impressed after Dragonmount experience. And etc.
Yet we've seen Egwene's response to pain - it doesn't stop her. She would endure it, same as Rand would. If Egwene lost a hand, I expect it would bother her a bit more than it bothered Rand - he is insane, after all. That said, I don't expect that it would stop her, any more than it did Rand. You really have put forward nothing to support your point.

 

Without question, Rand is much more mentally stronger than Egwene, he would have to be, being the DR and the fate of the world and the entire Pattern rests on his shoulders. The Creator's champion would have to be the strongest...think about that.
I have, and I disagree. The Creator's champion would have to be strong, or else he would fail, but that doesn't mean he must be in possession of some divine mandate to be the strongest of them all.

 

The greatest of generals have shown to have high IQ's in the real world. Rand was likely the greatest general in AoL.
Rand wasn't around in the AoL. Might as well say Mr Ares was the greatest general of Mediaeval Europe.
Grandael would have died if not for the TP trick, even the smartest of the Chosen was very impressed. Certainly no poor genius, a good genius.
While it was a competent trick, the reason he had to use it was that he would be outclassed if he tried engaging in a battle of wits - she was smarter than him. A punch to the face is where he is best. It hardly takes a genius to work out that he should try and engage on his own terms, and his plan was fairly simple. Really, all this demonstrates is that he is smarter than, say, a Terry Goodkind fan, not that his is an intellect worthy to be placed alongside the greatest of all time. Plus, it was Graendal's suspicions that led her to use the TP trick to begin with. If she didn't have access, she might have tried something different. He tried to trick her and he failed. She played him.
Even his bitter rival/Demandred called him "brilliant": "Lews Therin had always been a brilliant planner, too, if not so brilliant as EVERYONE made out".
So he's a brilliant planner - that still falls some way short of being a genius. Mr Ares is brilliant, but even he, arrogant as he is, would hesitate about applying the term genius to himself. Plus, where is the evidence of Rand being a genius? He has benefited from occasional lapses in good judgement from all those around him, and he is ta'veren. He's also done some fairly stupid things himself.

 

 

It may be that all of the EotW crew are essential to winning TG (in which case, once again, good job running off on your crazy suicide charge, Lan!), I imagine if this is the case, it will become clear in AMoL. Perhaps all of them were needed to bring the world into the state it is in before TG, uniting nations, forming armies, etc. Perhaps it is vital that Egwene was the Amyrlin Seat and remains so throughout TG, perhaps the Pattern could not have replaced her, and any other Amyrlin elected by the Hall would have resulted in the loss of TG, in which case, as people have said, all essential characters are equally important by virtue of all being essential. However, until we read AMoL and find out otherwise, in which case I will revise my opinion, the only one we know is essential, the only one we know who must PERSONALLY be at the Last Battle, is Rand, the Dragon Reborn. If either the position of Amyrlin, or Egwene as a person, prove essential to TG, then yes, I guess I would have to conclude with others here that they are equally important, albeit in two wildly different roles.

We know Mat and Perrin are essential as well. Also, we know Rand would fail without Moiraine, therefore she is essential also. Lastly, ToM does tell us that Siuan believes Egwene is the better Amyrlin of the two - while the position is replaceable, not everyone will perform as well in the role, and it's not hard to take away the feeling that we are supposed to see Egwene as more than just another Amyrlin, but as the only person for the job.
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Because which soul the champion of the light is for every age is fixed...it may not be the dragon soul for all ages but it is so for these 2 ages.

 

?? Every age needs a champion of light?

 

 

End of every age is a battle with the DO..so yes I guess a champion of the light is needed.

 

 

The champion of light has turned to the shadow in the past, and yet the DO seems to be quite locked up. So apparently it is quite possible to save the day not only without the Dragon, but with him actively fighting against the light.

 

The Dragon has never turned to the Shadow..either Rand or LTT says that to Isy at some point in the books.

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(3)OP skill: no comparison, LTT was the greatest in AoL.
What about Rand? Also, greatest in the AoL doesn't necessarily mean he is more skilled than Egwene. She was not around in the AoL, after all.

 

(4)Will power: Much greater than Egwene, even though Egwene has considerable will power. Think of what Rand faced and overcame vs. Egwene.
What of opportunity? If Rand has faced greater hardships without breaking, but Egwene has not been tested to her limit, then there is nothing to say that Rand has greater willpower.

 

(7)IQ? Rand, genius intellect, how quickly he learns, given what he faced and overcome, his strategy to take out Grandael (brilliant), the way he played Egwene in book 13, and what Demandred says about LTT "brilliant" (cleansing of saidin), defeating Shai'tan once, and will again.
Seldom has the term genius been so badly abused. Poor, poor genius. His strategy to take out Graendal was competent, but nothing special - and it failed. He played Egwene - but to what end? He got her to get everyone together for a big meeting - something she probably would have done if he'd asked her. Doing things the hard way is a sign of genius now? And even then, getting the better of someone once does not prove you are smarter than them. He defeated Shai'tan and in the process tainted the Source, drove all the male channelers mad and broke the world. Is that really the work of a genius?

 

One cannot ever separate the Rand 'personality' from LTT, memory leakages occurred throughout series.

I disagree, it is entirely possible to separate the two personalities.
LTT, 400 years+ channeling experience, greatest of AoL. Let's get real. No contest, why you even bring this up is puzzling. In the skill category, she is so far beneath Rand, not even in the same universe.
Rand wasn't around in the AoL, nor was Egwene. Therefore who was the greatest of the AoL is unimportant. Also, even if someone was the greatest of the AoL, it is not the AoL now, so they could potentially be surpassed.

 

Egwene is not even the most skilled AS in this Age. Nynaeve for instance learns a Weave at after first glance, FAR FAR more skilled. 100 AS Weaves, Nyaneve found them easy, Egwene said they were complex and she has not remembered them all.
So you've proved, at best, that Egwene isn't the most skilled of this Age, that Nynaeve surpasses her. Fine - but last time I checked Nynaeve wasn't Rand, therefore Nynaeve being better than Egwene doesn't mean Rand is. Would you care to provide supporting evidence?

 

 

Think of their collar experience. The male adam, Semirhage sends out pain through it, he did not let it affect him, Egwene would scream like a little girl, like any other damane as sul'dam punish them. He lost a hand, thought nothing of it. You can bet Egwene would be screaming like a little girl. Avienhda is amazed that he can stand that much pain (after they are Bonded). Even the Wise Women were impressed after Dragonmount experience. And etc.
Yet we've seen Egwene's response to pain - it doesn't stop her. She would endure it, same as Rand would. If Egwene lost a hand, I expect it would bother her a bit more than it bothered Rand - he is insane, after all. That said, I don't expect that it would stop her, any more than it did Rand. You really have put forward nothing to support your point.

 

Without question, Rand is much more mentally stronger than Egwene, he would have to be, being the DR and the fate of the world and the entire Pattern rests on his shoulders. The Creator's champion would have to be the strongest...think about that.
I have, and I disagree. The Creator's champion would have to be strong, or else he would fail, but that doesn't mean he must be in possession of some divine mandate to be the strongest of them all.

 

The greatest of generals have shown to have high IQ's in the real world. Rand was likely the greatest general in AoL.
Rand wasn't around in the AoL. Might as well say Mr Ares was the greatest general of Mediaeval Europe.
Grandael would have died if not for the TP trick, even the smartest of the Chosen was very impressed. Certainly no poor genius, a good genius.
While it was a competent trick, the reason he had to use it was that he would be outclassed if he tried engaging in a battle of wits - she was smarter than him. A punch to the face is where he is best. It hardly takes a genius to work out that he should try and engage on his own terms, and his plan was fairly simple. Really, all this demonstrates is that he is smarter than, say, a Terry Goodkind fan, not that his is an intellect worthy to be placed alongside the greatest of all time. Plus, it was Graendal's suspicions that led her to use the TP trick to begin with. If she didn't have access, she might have tried something different. He tried to trick her and he failed. She played him.
Even his bitter rival/Demandred called him "brilliant": "Lews Therin had always been a brilliant planner, too, if not so brilliant as EVERYONE made out".
So he's a brilliant planner - that still falls some way short of being a genius. Mr Ares is brilliant, but even he, arrogant as he is, would hesitate about applying the term genius to himself. Plus, where is the evidence of Rand being a genius? He has benefited from occasional lapses in good judgement from all those around him, and he is ta'veren. He's also done some fairly stupid things himself.

 

 

It may be that all of the EotW crew are essential to winning TG (in which case, once again, good job running off on your crazy suicide charge, Lan!), I imagine if this is the case, it will become clear in AMoL. Perhaps all of them were needed to bring the world into the state it is in before TG, uniting nations, forming armies, etc. Perhaps it is vital that Egwene was the Amyrlin Seat and remains so throughout TG, perhaps the Pattern could not have replaced her, and any other Amyrlin elected by the Hall would have resulted in the loss of TG, in which case, as people have said, all essential characters are equally important by virtue of all being essential. However, until we read AMoL and find out otherwise, in which case I will revise my opinion, the only one we know is essential, the only one we know who must PERSONALLY be at the Last Battle, is Rand, the Dragon Reborn. If either the position of Amyrlin, or Egwene as a person, prove essential to TG, then yes, I guess I would have to conclude with others here that they are equally important, albeit in two wildly different roles.

We know Mat and Perrin are essential as well. Also, we know Rand would fail without Moiraine, therefore she is essential also. Lastly, ToM does tell us that Siuan believes Egwene is the better Amyrlin of the two - while the position is replaceable, not everyone will perform as well in the role, and it's not hard to take away the feeling that we are supposed to see Egwene as more than just another Amyrlin, but as the only person for the job.

 

In 13 books Egwene has done the least among all the 2 river characters in the fight against the DO.

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Rand wasn't around in the AoL, nor was Egwene. Therefore who was the greatest of the AoL is unimportant. Also, even if someone was the greatest of the AoL, it is not the AoL now, so they could potentially be surpassed.

 

 

Let us see Rand and LTT have the same skill level, the AoL is acknowledged as the age of the greatest channelers and now you are claiming that Egwene who is an half trained child compared to the AoL group is more skilled than Rand? lol lol

 

This age or the next cannot be greater than the AoL with regard to the OP..the whole premise of the book with the cyclic rotation of ages is that the age of channelers is on a decline and will rise only the next time the wheel turns towards the AoL. It is pretty clear with the technological inventions being made that it is pointing towards a start towards our own age when there is no channeling.

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In 13 books Egwene has done the least among all the 2 river characters in the fight against the DO.

 

 

Give poor girl some credit.. She destroyed Messana, saved WT, freed Logain, rediscovered the weave for ceundillar/traveling, destroyed black ajah big time....

 

 

While Amrylin of WT itself might not play any significant role in overall scheme of things, whatever the job of that position is, no one can do it better than Egwene. In that sense, she is irreplaceable.

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Because which soul the champion of the light is for every age is fixed...it may not be the dragon soul for all ages but it is so for these 2 ages.

 

?? Every age needs a champion of light?

 

 

End of every age is a battle with the DO..so yes I guess a champion of the light is needed.

 

 

The champion of light has turned to the shadow in the past, and yet the DO seems to be quite locked up. So apparently it is quite possible to save the day not only without the Dragon, but with him actively fighting against the light.

 

The Dragon has never turned to the Shadow..either Rand or LTT says that to Isy at some point in the books.

 

People do love to trust everything written down in the books. I mean come on! Ishy was the one saying the LTT/Rand soul had turned, but he was pretending to be the DO himself at the time. I doubt he would even know. And even if he somehow had memories of all previous battles from past ages, he was trying to get Rand to believe fighting was pointless. All about motive.

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In 13 books Egwene has done the least among all the 2 river characters in the fight against the DO.

 

 

Give poor girl some credit.. She destroyed Messana, saved WT, freed Logain, rediscovered the weave for ceundillar/traveling, destroyed black ajah big time....

 

 

While Amrylin of WT itself might not play any significant role in overall scheme of things, whatever the job of that position is, no one can do it better than Egwene. In that sense, she is irreplaceable.

 

 

She has done the least among the 2 river characters...she routed the black Ajah?..Verin gave her the list,if ordering the execution of everyone looking at a list given to her by some one else is an achievement so be it.

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Because which soul the champion of the light is for every age is fixed...it may not be the dragon soul for all ages but it is so for these 2 ages.

 

?? Every age needs a champion of light?

 

 

End of every age is a battle with the DO..so yes I guess a champion of the light is needed.

 

 

The champion of light has turned to the shadow in the past, and yet the DO seems to be quite locked up. So apparently it is quite possible to save the day not only without the Dragon, but with him actively fighting against the light.

 

The Dragon has never turned to the Shadow..either Rand or LTT says that to Isy at some point in the books.

 

People do love to trust everything written down in the books. I mean come on! Ishy was the one saying the LTT/Rand soul had turned, but he was pretending to be the DO himself at the time. I doubt he would even know. And even if he somehow had memories of all previous battles from past ages, he was trying to get Rand to believe fighting was pointless. All about motive.

 

Unless RJ has said that the Dragon has ever turned to the shadow I have to believe what is written in the books. The Dragon is just one soul across ages so if he ever turned to the shadow then that soul can never be the champion of the light again..as the soul remains constant through the ages.

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In 13 books Egwene has done the least among all the 2 river characters in the fight against the DO.

 

 

Give poor girl some credit.. She destroyed Messana, saved WT, freed Logain, rediscovered the weave for ceundillar/traveling, destroyed black ajah big time....

 

 

While Amrylin of WT itself might not play any significant role in overall scheme of things, whatever the job of that position is, no one can do it better than Egwene. In that sense, she is irreplaceable.

 

 

She has done the least among the 2 river characters...she routed the black Ajah?..Verin gave her the list,if ordering the execution of everyone looking at a list given to her by some one else is an achievement so be it.

 

1) Nyn is forced to fight Moghy. Moghy is still out there. She helped Rand fight Rahvin but Rand did the actual killing.

2) Mat killed Gholam because he was forced into it. Other than that...?

3) Perrin has fought the most shadowspawn after Rand (from two river crowd) yet he had not killed anyone major (slayer is still out there).

 

If you want just out down someone, everyone can be put down.

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