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Are the Amyrlin and Dragon Equal?


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I refuse to call someone who managed to get himself captured by Galina and company in such a idiotic way a genius. What the hell was Rand thinking not having a few Wise Ones at hand to help him if the Aes Sedai tried to trick him? He had hundreds of them who'd have gladly done it. And why the hell was he thinking that making sure only 3 women with Ageless faces come to meet him would be enough of a guarantee for his safety? For all he knew, they might have had three sa'angreals and overpower him easily by linking. Or they might've brought along 10 Accepted - he obviously knew that they didn't have ageless faces - Egwene is a clear example of that and she was often around him at this point.

 

Why no earth would he suspect them of capturing him when all the prophecies (which the AS are supposedly experts at) says that he has to be free?..he was afraid of them manipulating him not trying to kidnap him. Obviously he underestimated how outstandingly stupid AS could be.

Except that he actually suspected it - why else did he order only 3 of them could come to meet him at once? Not only he didn't trust Elaida at all, but he also knew that the Black Ajah exists.

 

 

Trust them no...expect them to kidnap him, I don't think so. But then he learnt how stupid the AS could be after that.

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I refuse to call someone who managed to get himself captured by Galina and company in such a idiotic way a genius. What the hell was Rand thinking not having a few Wise Ones at hand to help him if the Aes Sedai tried to trick him? He had hundreds of them who'd have gladly done it. And why the hell was he thinking that making sure only 3 women with Ageless faces come to meet him would be enough of a guarantee for his safety? For all he knew, they might have had three sa'angreals and overpower him easily by linking. Or they might've brought along 10 Accepted - he obviously knew that they didn't have ageless faces - Egwene is a clear example of that and she was often around him at this point.

 

Why no earth would he suspect them of capturing him when all the prophecies (which the AS are supposedly experts at) says that he has to be free?..he was afraid of them manipulating him not trying to kidnap him. Obviously he underestimated how outstandingly stupid AS could be.

Except that he actually suspected it - why else did he order only 3 of them could come to meet him at once? Not only he didn't trust Elaida at all, but he also knew that the Black Ajah exists.

 

 

Trust them no...expect them to kidnap him, I don't think so. But then he learnt how stupid the AS could be after that.

 

 

Trust them to not do what? If he merely didn't "trust" them, why enforce the rule? He enforced the rule for one purpose only! 13 can overpower him.

Edited by WhiskyJack
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P.S: What prophecy says that he has to be free?

 

Read the chapter were Egwene serves Elaida in her room.

 

 

Hold on. All prophesies related to Dragon are in that chapter? Also, he was "kidnapped" because as for as Aes Sedai were concerned, he had left them no other choice.

Edited by WhiskyJack
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Right, because at the end of the day it will come down to the amount of power one can draw. Which is of course why Rand saves the most powerful sa'angreal ever made, and has absolutely no plans to destroy it. Oh, wait a minute...

 

 

Er...what has the COL to do with the sa'angreal..in an age of channelers the COL is the most powerful channeler.

 

And why does it matter? Why CoL has to be most powerful channeler? You haven't answered that?

 

 

The concept of the wheel,ages and a champion is not something RJ made up. It is the central concept in a no of eastern religions and all the ages end always with someone sent by God/Creator to fight the good fight which causes widespread destruction but clears the rubble to start the next age. No age finishes just like that without a COL.Oh..and the COL has always been either a powerful warrior or a powerful spiritual being someone who would be important in that age. As RJ took this concept from the eastern religions then it is not a stretch to say that in an age of people using the OP, the COL will be the person who is the strongest in the OP.

 

What has this to do with the fact the Egwene is nothing compared to the Dragon?

 

I would like to know about these eastern religions with CoL being some kind of central figure? Even in Rand's own opinion, he is not a weapon. He is a symbol. He doesn't have to be the strongest channeler in any age. His strength in OP is not going to be deciding factor (it has not been till now!)..

 

And you keep repeating about this champion in every age (RJ never said any such thing). I asked you before after this enemy of CoL in every age. I am curious. What kind of champion wheel would resurrect in age of say technology?

Edited by WhiskyJack
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Right, because at the end of the day it will come down to the amount of power one can draw. Which is of course why Rand saves the most powerful sa'angreal ever made, and has absolutely no plans to destroy it. Oh, wait a minute...

 

 

Er...what has the COL to do with the sa'angreal..in an age of channelers the COL is the most powerful channeler.

 

If it had been all about power, pretty much anyone with the Choedan Kal would be stronger than Rand is unaided. Plenty of people would be stronger with the Choedan Kal than Rand is with Callandor.

If it had been all about power, TGS would have ended with Rand going to Shayol Ghul to lay the smackdown on the DO, because in terms of raw strength, that was when he was at his strongest. Instead, he destroyed the most powerful sa'angreal in the world, and realised that there are more important things in play to get the job done.

 

The concept of the wheel,ages and a champion is not something RJ made up. It is the central concept in a no of eastern religions and all the ages end always with someone sent by God/Creator to fight the good fight which causes widespread destruction but clears the rubble to start the next age. No age finishes just like that without a COL.Oh..and the COL has always been either a powerful warrior or a powerful spiritual being someone who would be important in that age. As RJ took this concept from the eastern religions then it is not a stretch to say that in an age of people using the OP, the COL will be the person who is the strongest in the OP.

 

 

This is a very common mistake people make, finding one of the influences RJ used, and then trying to squeeze everything from that into their theories. But, thing is, what RJ actually did was studying a multitude of religions, myths, stories etc, and then he took the bits and pieces that he liked/needed.

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Rand wasn't around in the AoL, nor was Egwene. Therefore who was the greatest of the AoL is unimportant. Also, even if someone was the greatest of the AoL, it is not the AoL now, so they could potentially be surpassed.

Let us see Rand and LTT have the same skill level,

Do they really?
the AoL is acknowledged as the age of the greatest channelers and now you are claiming that Egwene who is an half trained child compared to the AoL group is more skilled than Rand? lol lol
No, I'm claiming that who was the greatest in the AoL has no bearing on who is the greatest today, and that just because the AoL was an Age of wonders, it doesn't mean that individuals from today cannot surpass them. Egwene might be limited in knowledge, but are knowledge and skill the same?

 

This age or the next cannot be greater than the AoL with regard to the OP..
Yes, they can.
the whole premise of the book with the cyclic rotation of ages is that the age of channelers is on a decline and will rise only the next time the wheel turns towards the AoL.
No, the premise is that Ages will repeat. There will be ups and downs - the AoL needn't be the highest point.
It is pretty clear with the technological inventions being made that it is pointing towards a start towards our own age when there is no channeling.
Actually, given things like Thom's stories and a certain item Nynaeve finds in the museum in Tanchico, the evidence suggests that the First Age was our own. There is no evidence channeling will disappear in the Fourth Age - we know it will go sometime, but what says it will be the Fourth Age? Certainly not the emergence of technology - the AoL was technologically advanced and still had channelers.
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i thought that Taim and Egwene would be equals considering that they both goven the two groups of channelers

 

Oh Taim is far far greater than Egwene, trust me

 

^ this. Taim is so bad-ass Min has past-visions of him. No idea what that actually means, but it means something!

 

Nice to see all the Egwene defenders out now-a-days. I don't really have much more to add you all do such a good job. Plus I think this discussion is one long waste of time given the books are petty much all about Rand. If they release a side-story all about Egwene then the perspective would be different. She is one of the main characters, Moir says she's important, she's in an important position now (assuming she rebuilds the reputation). What more do you want? We won't really know how important till after AMoL.

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Egwene without doubt got the maximum no of beatings without actually getting into real fights among all characters in the series.

 

Making her, in essence, the Alex Burrows of the Wheel of Time.

 

Rand best be careful at the Field of Merrilor. He might get bitten.

 

/ gratuitous Kael-baiting

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Egwene without doubt got the maximum no of beatings without actually getting into real fights among all characters in the series.

 

Making her, in essence, the Alex Burrows of the Wheel of Time.

 

Rand best be careful at the Field of Merrilor. He might get bitten.

 

/ gratuitous Kael-baiting

 

*holds his finger up annoyingly close to randsc's face*

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"Do they really?"

 

Rand=LTT is kill, because after book 12, he received all of LTT's memories

 

Rand >>>>>>>> Egwene is both strength and skill

 

Egwene does not have the skill of Nynaeve let alone the greatest channeler of AoL.

 

Egwene is merely a strong Amyrlin.

 

If the Dragon Reborn turned to the Shadow, Pattern and the world would be destroyed (see end of book 12).

 

In AoL, LTT came up with the plan to seal up Shai'tan...otherwise very likely victory by the Shadow. As shown in this Age by the DR, the Choden Kal would have been ineffective in containing Shai'tan, as Latra(sp) and the rest thought.

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i thought that Taim and Egwene would be equals considering that they both goven the two groups of channelers

 

Oh Taim is far far greater than Egwene, trust me

 

^ this. Taim is so bad-ass Min has past-visions of him. No idea what that actually means, but it means something!

 

 

...

 

Taim is Moridin! *insane cackle*

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'Are the Amyrlin and Dragon Equal?' is a pretty broad question to ask. Equal in what way?

 

Both are (now) politically adept; Rand due to his enlightenment and pseudo-experience from LTT, Egwene from Siuan's crash course in political shenanigans. Both benefit greatly from advisors.

 

They're arguably equal, though different, players in 3rd age politics. As head of the White Tower the Amyrlin has been at the forefront of international politics for nearly 3000 years. The Dragon is a conqueror, the herald of a new age, and a major focus of the fight against the Shadow. Egwene (or her successors) will very likely continue to be a major political force in the 4th age, after the Dragon has died or disappeared.

 

By his own admission, Rand's role in the exoteric fight against the Shadow must diminish. His efforts are needed elsewhere. Knowing that, and considering the events of ToM, it seems likely that he intends Egwene to assume his place as rallying figure and coordinator.

 

If Egwene dies, the Aes Sedai--and thereby much of the Light's forces--will be thrown into chaos. It would be a disaster. If Rand dies (prematurely), it would also be a disaster as he couldn't fulfill his role in defeating/resealing the DO. Neither event necessarily means the DO would win.

 

Egwene has become the guiding hand of the White Tower, the epitome of 3rd Age tradition, subtlety and stability. Rand has seized his power in war and chaos. One can't help but see parallels with saidar and saidin.

 

So, yes, I'd say the Amyrlin and the Dragon are equal in terms of their political influence, equally important in the fight against the DO, and equally relevant to the story.

 

-- dwn

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'Are the Amyrlin and Dragon Equal?' is a pretty broad question to ask. Equal in what way?

 

Both are (now) politically adept; Rand due to his enlightenment and pseudo-experience from LTT, Egwene from Siuan's crash course in political shenanigans. Both benefit greatly from advisors.

 

They're arguably equal, though different, players in 3rd age politics. As head of the White Tower the Amyrlin has been at the forefront of international politics for nearly 3000 years. The Dragon is a conqueror, the herald of a new age, and a major focus of the fight against the Shadow. Egwene (or her successors) will very likely continue to be a major political force in the 4th age, after the Dragon has died or disappeared.

 

By his own admission, Rand's role in the exoteric fight against the Shadow must diminish. His efforts are needed elsewhere. Knowing that, and considering the events of ToM, it seems likely that he intends Egwene to assume his place as rallying figure and coordinator.

 

If Egwene dies, the Aes Sedai--and thereby much of the Light's forces--will be thrown into chaos. It would be a disaster. If Rand dies (prematurely), it would also be a disaster as he couldn't fulfill his role in defeating/resealing the DO. Neither event necessarily means the DO would win.

 

Egwene has become the guiding hand of the White Tower, the epitome of 3rd Age tradition, subtlety and stability. Rand has seized his power in war and chaos. One can't help but see parallels with saidar and saidin.

 

So, yes, I'd say the Amyrlin and the Dragon are equal in terms of their political influence, equally important in the fight against the DO, and equally relevant to the story.

 

-- dwn

 

 

Egwene is a weaker Amyrlin in regards to influence that what Siuan was..and the Amyrlin will never have that same power again. For the simple reason that there are many powerful entities in Randland who today refuse AS authority..the Seachan,the BT and the Aiel.

 

If Egwene dies the major part of the light forces will be broken?..huh the AS will choose another leader,the rest of Randland do not care one way or other.

Edited by XXX47
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Do they really?

the AoL is acknowledged as the age of the greatest channelers and now you are claiming that Egwene who is an half trained child compared to the AoL group is more skilled than Rand? lol lol
No, I'm claiming that who was the greatest in the AoL has no bearing on who is the greatest today, and that just because the AoL was an Age of wonders, it doesn't mean that individuals from today cannot surpass them. Egwene might be limited in knowledge, but are knowledge and skill the same?

 

Might be?

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This is a very common mistake people make, finding one of the influences RJ used, and then trying to squeeze everything from that into their theories. But, thing is, what RJ actually did was studying a multitude of religions, myths, stories etc, and then he took the bits and pieces that he liked/needed.

 

Unless RJ said that there is no COL in every age..I am going to go with the basic idea from which he copied the whole wheel concept, which is that there is a COL in every age.

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'Are the Amyrlin and Dragon Equal?' is a pretty broad question to ask. Equal in what way?

 

Both are (now) politically adept; Rand due to his enlightenment and pseudo-experience from LTT, Egwene from Siuan's crash course in political shenanigans. Both benefit greatly from advisors.

 

They're arguably equal, though different, players in 3rd age politics. As head of the White Tower the Amyrlin has been at the forefront of international politics for nearly 3000 years. The Dragon is a conqueror, the herald of a new age, and a major focus of the fight against the Shadow. Egwene (or her successors) will very likely continue to be a major political force in the 4th age, after the Dragon has died or disappeared.

 

By his own admission, Rand's role in the exoteric fight against the Shadow must diminish. His efforts are needed elsewhere. Knowing that, and considering the events of ToM, it seems likely that he intends Egwene to assume his place as rallying figure and coordinator.

 

If Egwene dies, the Aes Sedai--and thereby much of the Light's forces--will be thrown into chaos. It would be a disaster. If Rand dies (prematurely), it would also be a disaster as he couldn't fulfill his role in defeating/resealing the DO. Neither event necessarily means the DO would win.

 

Egwene has become the guiding hand of the White Tower, the epitome of 3rd Age tradition, subtlety and stability. Rand has seized his power in war and chaos. One can't help but see parallels with saidar and saidin.

 

So, yes, I'd say the Amyrlin and the Dragon are equal in terms of their political influence, equally important in the fight against the DO, and equally relevant to the story.

 

-- dwn

 

 

Not even politically. Think of the forces that are behind the DR, compared to Tower, not even close.

 

Seanchan, Black Tower, Aiel Wise Ones, Windfinders...The Tower influence is be far far less than it ever was.

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'Are the Amyrlin and Dragon Equal?' is a pretty broad question to ask. Equal in what way?

 

Both are (now) politically adept; Rand due to his enlightenment and pseudo-experience from LTT, Egwene from Siuan's crash course in political shenanigans. Both benefit greatly from advisors.

 

They're arguably equal, though different, players in 3rd age politics. As head of the White Tower the Amyrlin has been at the forefront of international politics for nearly 3000 years. The Dragon is a conqueror, the herald of a new age, and a major focus of the fight against the Shadow. Egwene (or her successors) will very likely continue to be a major political force in the 4th age, after the Dragon has died or disappeared.

 

By his own admission, Rand's role in the exoteric fight against the Shadow must diminish. His efforts are needed elsewhere. Knowing that, and considering the events of ToM, it seems likely that he intends Egwene to assume his place as rallying figure and coordinator.

 

If Egwene dies, the Aes Sedai--and thereby much of the Light's forces--will be thrown into chaos. It would be a disaster. If Rand dies (prematurely), it would also be a disaster as he couldn't fulfill his role in defeating/resealing the DO. Neither event necessarily means the DO would win.

 

Egwene has become the guiding hand of the White Tower, the epitome of 3rd Age tradition, subtlety and stability. Rand has seized his power in war and chaos. One can't help but see parallels with saidar and saidin.

 

So, yes, I'd say the Amyrlin and the Dragon are equal in terms of their political influence, equally important in the fight against the DO, and equally relevant to the story.

 

-- dwn

 

 

Egwene is a weaker Amyrlin in regards to influence that what Siuan was..and the Amyrlin will never have that same power again. For the simple reason that there are many powerful entities in Randland who today refuse AS authority..the Seachan,the BT and the Aiel.

 

 

Damn, you beat me to it :(

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This is a very common mistake people make, finding one of the influences RJ used, and then trying to squeeze everything from that into their theories. But, thing is, what RJ actually did was studying a multitude of religions, myths, stories etc, and then he took the bits and pieces that he liked/needed.

 

Unless RJ said that there is no COL in every age..I am going to go with the basic idea from which he copied the whole wheel concept, which is that there is a COL in every age.

 

 

RJ also didn't mention superman :biggrin: In Hinduism/Buddhism, there is no CoL. There is no "champion", period. He has mixed Christianity with eastern religion. So what basic idea you were talking about?

Edited by WhiskyJack
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In Buddhism there is a Buddha is every age...that would be the champion, in Hinduism there is atleast one avatar of Vishnu in every age...Rama,Krishna etc who would be the Champion. Please note that Rama/Krishna do exactly what Rand is supposed to do..defeat evil and end an age.

Edited by XXX47
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In Buddhism there is a Buddha is every age...that would be the champion, in Hinduism there is atleast one avatar of Vishnu in every age...Rama,Krishna etc who would be the Champion. Please note that Rama/Krishna do exactly what Rand is supposed to do..defeat evil and end an age.

 

Er...You do know that Rama/Krishna are God...in flesh, not some champion? And Buddhism doesn't deal with divinity. He is not a "champion". There is no war in Buddhism.

 

Rama or Krishna can be born to deal with an evil, not THE evil (Hinduism has no concept).

Edited by WhiskyJack
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From the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna to Arjuna

 

"yada yada hi dharmasya

glanir bhavati bharata

abhyutthanam adharmasya

tadatmanam srjamy aham"

 

Translation

 

Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion — at that time I descend Myself.

 

 

Sounds similar to how the creator generates a champion to correct/save the pattern at different ages? :wheel:

Edited by XXX47
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