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Are the Amyrlin and Dragon Equal?


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I'd say the ashaman have a few advantages on the damane, 2 of which are:

 

They're channeling men which will freak anyone out. There's no reason for the ashaman to be freaked out by the damane.

 

They channel saidin which the damane have no experience fighting. The ashaman on the other hand fight saidar all the time.

 

 

For the time being...now the damane know that they will confront men so they will change their tactics.

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I'd say the ashaman have a few advantages on the damane, 2 of which are:

 

They're channeling men which will freak anyone out. There's no reason for the ashaman to be freaked out by the damane.

 

They channel saidin which the damane have no experience fighting. The ashaman on the other hand fight saidar all the time.

All the time as in "once before the Seanchan campaign in PoD"? ;)

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I'd say the ashaman have a few advantages on the damane, 2 of which are:

 

They're channeling men which will freak anyone out. There's no reason for the ashaman to be freaked out by the damane.

 

They channel saidin which the damane have no experience fighting. The ashaman on the other hand fight saidar all the time.

 

 

Only because men are stronger and the damane cannot link, if they could, it is all over very rapidly.

 

If the damane can link, damane >= Asha'man.

 

We also know that the damane humiliated/annihilated/subjugated the White Tower, Black Tower and Aiel Wise Ones and everyone else = Aviehnda's vision...even without linking they are formidable (they can rapidly expand their size via the collar).

 

Linking advantage of women. Here is a scenario:

 

13 Lanfear's linked vs. 13 LTT's, face-to-face confrontation, exclude balefire:

 

Create a shield using the power of the entire circle = cannot be broken by the 13 individual LTT's.

Pick apart the 13 individual LTT's or use a massively powerful weave to finish off the entire 13 etc.

 

13 Lanfear's victory.

 

Unless it is a shield similar to one Rand used in book 8 (I believe he used Fire, Air and Earth), which did not let in anything or let out anything...the females should be able to channel outside their shield or open it up at will to let out attacks.

 

Thus, flawless victory by the 13 Lanfear's.

 

Asmodean:

 

"Because we can't. Exasperation filled Asmodean's tone...Perhaps in the grand scheme of the Pattern, it's a balance for men being stronger. We cannot link without them, but they can without us. Up to thirteen of them can, anyway, a small mercy.

 

"If two women link, they do not double their strength...but if they are strong enough, they can match a man".

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Send out orders for retreat,” Yulan ordered, and saw the men standing around him jerk. For the second time on these shores, the Ever Victorious Army had suffered a devastating defeat, and Yulan did not think he was the only one who wept.
TPOD, A Time for Iron

 

“I am displeased, Suroth,” the girl said again, sternly frowning down at the other woman. Even standing, she did not have all that far down to stare at the seated High Lady. Mat supposed she must be a High Lady, too, only Higher than Suroth. “You have recovered much, and that will please the Empress, may she live forever, but your ill-considered attack eastward was a disaster that must not be repeated.
Winter’s Heart, pink ribbons.

 

Outsider´s point of view (Balwer)

The second news is that the Seanchan have fought another battle, this in southern Altara. Against Aes Sedai, possibly, though some mentioned men channeling. Half turning in his saddle, Balwer looked back at Grady and Neald in their black coats. Grady was in conversation with Elyas, and Neald with Aram, but both Asha’man appeared to be keeping as close an eye on the forests as did the Warders bringing up the rear. The Aes Sedai and the Wise Ones were talking in low voices, too. “Whoever they fought, my Lord, it is clear that the Seanchan lost and were sent reeling back into Ebou Dar.”
. Winter’s Heart,Leaving the Prophet
Beslan was out of his mind. The Seanchan were not going to be driven off by anyone except an army with Asha’man, like the one rumor said had fought them to the east a week ago.
MAt POV, Winter´s Heart,An Unexpected Encounter

Rand: 4000(5000 at the begining) soldiers + 50 ashaman Vs 40.000 + several hundres damane. Rand Victory. "devastating defeat" (Yulan POV)

White Tower(with Egwene as one of the leaders) vs 300 soldiers 50 damane= AS. Stunning deafeat.

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Send out orders for retreat,” Yulan ordered, and saw the men standing around him jerk. For the second time on these shores, the Ever Victorious Army had suffered a devastating defeat, and Yulan did not think he was the only one who wept.
TPOD, A Time for Iron

 

“I am displeased, Suroth,” the girl said again, sternly frowning down at the other woman. Even standing, she did not have all that far down to stare at the seated High Lady. Mat supposed she must be a High Lady, too, only Higher than Suroth. “You have recovered much, and that will please the Empress, may she live forever, but your ill-considered attack eastward was a disaster that must not be repeated.
Winter’s Heart, pink ribbons.

 

Outsider´s point of view (Balwer)

The second news is that the Seanchan have fought another battle, this in southern Altara. Against Aes Sedai, possibly, though some mentioned men channeling. Half turning in his saddle, Balwer looked back at Grady and Neald in their black coats. Grady was in conversation with Elyas, and Neald with Aram, but both Asha’man appeared to be keeping as close an eye on the forests as did the Warders bringing up the rear. The Aes Sedai and the Wise Ones were talking in low voices, too. “Whoever they fought, my Lord, it is clear that the Seanchan lost and were sent reeling back into Ebou Dar.”
. Winter’s Heart,Leaving the Prophet
Beslan was out of his mind. The Seanchan were not going to be driven off by anyone except an army with Asha’man, like the one rumor said had fought them to the east a week ago.
MAt POV, Winter´s Heart,An Unexpected Encounter

Rand: 4000(5000 at the begining) soldiers + 50 ashaman Vs 40.000 + several hundres damane. Rand Victory. "devastating defeat" (Yulan POV)

White Tower(with Egwene as one of the leaders) vs 300 soldiers 50 damane= AS. Stunning deafeat.

 

 

Eqwene bashing again? While Dragon definitely wins, answer is bit more tricky more so since Eqwene just rose to power and Dragon had some time to establish himself.

 

Uhh that would be Elaida's defeat and Egwene's saving of the day thank you very much. She was prisoner when it started, broke out, saved and organized some others then almost single-handedly fended off the attack to save many more.

 

How on earth can you hate her so much to spin that to an Egwene loss? I mean that is almost a cliche of a hero story.

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The tower attack was a raid...not a field battle like the one Rand,Mat,Iturede/Bashere engaged in with moving troops around areas.

 

That cannot be counted on as a loss for Egwene..but Egwene has demonstrated zero knowledge in movement of troops or battle tactics.

Edited by XXX47
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Even excluding being the Creator's Chosen and the Dragon Reborn title, ta'avern, Rand >> Egwene, not in the same league. King vs. peasant.

 

Some fun facts.

 

(1)TAR skill: Egwene might be superior to Rand in TAR. She escaped Moghdien's trap and destroy Messana in TAR.

 

(2)OP strenght: Rand is easily 4+ times stronger than Egwene in Power strength. Given the incredible ease at which he manhandled Egwene+Elayne.

 

(3)OP skill: no comparison, LTT was the greatest in AoL.

 

(4)Will power: Much greater than Egwene, even though Egwene has considerable will power. Think of what Rand faced and overcame vs. Egwene.

 

(5)Physical combat: It is very doubtful that a half a dozen Egwene's could beat 1 Rand, even 1 armed. Rand is build like a bull (6'6", physical attributes fit for the Olympics, and unarmed he easily took out two armed Warders, was the #2 blademaster in WoT, prior to losing his hand).

 

(6)Combat tactics? Egwene has very little, if any. She is a 19 year old girl. Rand, knowledge of LTT, likely the greatest general in AoL.

 

(7)IQ? Rand, genius intellect, how quickly he learns, given what he faced and overcome, his strategy to take out Grandael (brilliant), the way he played Egwene in book 13, and what Demandred says about LTT "brilliant" (cleansing of saidin), defeating Shai'tan once, and will again.

 

 

6 to 1, if not 7 to 0. Total annihilation by Rand.

 

 

Aside:

Better player? Not even close. Egwene has Gawyn...Rand has 3 beautiful women at his beck and call, the most beautiful women ever wanting him like nothing else (but he dumped her, like a BOSS), possilby the most beautiful woman in his Age (Berelain) wanting him, until like a BOSS he also rejected her.

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LTT on the ohter hand is "moved forward" in time, so the big question is how different the battles of the 3rd age are, compared to the AoL? AoL had a much higher level of technology, asnd presuming LTT had also studied warfare that was "less developed" he would very likely be a great general under those conditions too.

 

Considering that war was something completely forgotten in the AOL, I very much doubt there were any nifty books on ancient warfare lying around for LTT to study. They had to invent everything from scratch.

 

Granted, at the end of the war of power, there were very little left of the AOL supertech, so he is not completely clueless about lowtech warfare. But nowhere near as experienced as guys like Bashere, Ituralde.

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Even excluding being the Creator's Chosen and the Dragon Reborn title, ta'avern, Rand >> Egwene, not in the same league. King vs. peasant.

 

Some fun facts.

 

(1)TAR skill: Egwene might be superior to Rand in TAR. She escaped Moghdien's trap and destroy Messana in TAR.

 

(2)OP strenght: Rand is easily 4+ times stronger than Egwene in Power strength. Given the incredible ease at which he manhandled Egwene+Elayne.

 

(3)OP skill: no comparison, LTT was the greatest in AoL.

 

(4)Will power: Much greater than Egwene, even though Egwene has considerable will power. Think of what Rand faced and overcame vs. Egwene.

 

(5)Physical combat: It is very doubtful that a half a dozen Egwene's could beat 1 Rand, even 1 armed. Rand is build like a bull (6'6", physical attributes fit for the Olympics, and unarmed he easily took out two armed Warders, was the #2 blademaster in WoT, prior to losing his hand).

 

(6)Combat tactics? Egwene has very little, if any. She is a 19 year old girl. Rand, knowledge of LTT, likely the greatest general in AoL.

 

(7)IQ? Rand, genius intellect, how quickly he learns, given what he faced and overcome, his strategy to take out Grandael (brilliant), the way he played Egwene in book 13, and what Demandred says about LTT "brilliant" (cleansing of saidin), defeating Shai'tan once, and will again.

 

 

6 to 1, if not 7 to 0. Total annihilation by Rand.

 

 

Aside:

Better player? Not even close. Egwene has Gawyn...Rand has 3 beautiful women at his beck and call, the most beautiful women ever wanting him like nothing else (but he dumped her, like a BOSS), possilby the most beautiful woman in his Age (Berelain) wanting him, until like a BOSS he also rejected her.

 

 

I take it you are quite enamoured with LTT/rand :biggrin:

 

I disagree with willpower bit, combat tactics and intellect. Her will power crushed mesaana and allowed her to rebel against elaida. her combat tactics meant her puny army in salidar become a 100,000 strong force ready to invade tar valon. her intellect meant she played rings around AS who were trying to manipulate her from the moment they choice her as amyrlin in book 6. So those are a draw in my opinion

 

Rand only comes ahead with one power skill, strength and stature. But that's to be expected. since he is the focal point of the series.

Edited by Elan Tedronai
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A win to what end if he didnt accomplish any of his objectives?

Ituralde didn't destroy the Seanchan either, or really save Arad Doman from them. I'd still say he won his battles against them quite impressively. This debate started when people stated that Rand possessed no real skill as a General. I think that, even with all the negatives involved, he displayed some pretty good skill in the Altara campaign. Not Mat level, but certainly not as negligible as Egwene, which was the original comparison.

The initial counter to the comparison was that it's hard to say there is a huge gap between them - after all, what is the gap between ? and 100? Egwene skill is completely unknown, as she has delegated everything to Bryne. Rand's skill has been seen and can be assessed - he attempted to throw the Seanchan back into the sea with an army completely unsuited to the job and killed a lot of his own men when he refused to listen to Bashere's advice. Egwene's greatest military accomplishment would probably be fighting the Seanchan - she caused them a lot of casualties, and made the raid more costly than it would otherwise have been. Egwene's skills cannot be said to be negligible - they are unknown. Rand's can be said to be seriously lacking at times.

 

 

A win to what end if he didnt accomplish any of his objectives?

Ituralde didn't destroy the Seanchan either, or really save Arad Doman from them. I'd still say he won his battles against them quite impressively. This debate started when people stated that Rand possessed no real skill as a General. I think that, even with all the negatives involved, he displayed some pretty good skill in the Altara campaign. Not Mat level, but certainly not as negligible as Egwene, which was the original comparison.

 

I have to agree with the people that say that Rand hasn't shown any skill whatsoever as a general. Have we really seen him place troops at the right location and tell them which formations they should use, when to attack and when to wait? All we've seen Rand do is attack personally. A great general can stand half a mile away from the battlefield and his army can still come out victorious. Rand constantly has to use the OP to push back the enemy himself, otherwise his troops would simply be crushed. IMHO he acts more like a weapon or a soldier, but certainly notlike a general (this doesn't mean he's not a great general, it just means that he hasn't shown us yet).

At what point during the Illian campaign did he enter the fray himself?

The time he used Callandor. Most of the generalling was done by Bashere.

 

 

I agree with you, but there are many thoughtful posters who somehow see it completety differently.
Those posters being...? Thus far, most everyone seems to be in agreement that Egwene is not as important as Rand. Whether or not she is an essential part of things or is completely replaceable is debated, but that's a bit different.

 

Some mystery makes life more interesting :tongue:

If Egwene is "essential" (for winning the Last Battle, I guess), then she is equally important as the DR - becasue every essential element is...Well, essential. :wink:

The question should be - could the Last Battle be won without Egwene? I think the answer is yes , the rules of the series allow for it.

Well, that's arguable. After all, we know there are several people who are essential to the LB, such as Moiraine, and EotW does rather seem to indicate that Egwene is part of the group, and therefore quite possibly is also essential to victory. A fair point on all essential things being equally essential, by virtue of being essential. In that respect, if Egwene is an essential component she can be considered Rand's equal. If she is replaceable, then she is not essential and therefore not his equal.

 

A lot of people keep saying LTT was a great general & Rand has his memories, so Rand must be a great general as well. Even though this might be true, it is not very likely. If you put general Patton, Rommel, Lee, etc. in ancient or medieval times, they'll most likely fail miserably. The weapons are different and so are the tactics.

Tactics, yes, strategy, not so much (at least, I was always taught that the principles of strategy were unchanging). Therefore the question of how much LTT has to offer as a general today depends on whether or not he was a great strategist or a great tactician, or both. If a great strtegist, he remains so. If a great tactician, he's lost his high ranking. If both, he might have dropped a few places.

 

 

(3)OP skill: no comparison, LTT was the greatest in AoL.
What about Rand? Also, greatest in the AoL doesn't necessarily mean he is more skilled than Egwene. She was not around in the AoL, after all.

 

(4)Will power: Much greater than Egwene, even though Egwene has considerable will power. Think of what Rand faced and overcame vs. Egwene.
What of opportunity? If Rand has faced greater hardships without breaking, but Egwene has not been tested to her limit, then there is nothing to say that Rand has greater willpower.

 

(7)IQ? Rand, genius intellect, how quickly he learns, given what he faced and overcome, his strategy to take out Grandael (brilliant), the way he played Egwene in book 13, and what Demandred says about LTT "brilliant" (cleansing of saidin), defeating Shai'tan once, and will again.
Seldom has the term genius been so badly abused. Poor, poor genius. His strategy to take out Graendal was competent, but nothing special - and it failed. He played Egwene - but to what end? He got her to get everyone together for a big meeting - something she probably would have done if he'd asked her. Doing things the hard way is a sign of genius now? And even then, getting the better of someone once does not prove you are smarter than them. He defeated Shai'tan and in the process tainted the Source, drove all the male channelers mad and broke the world. Is that really the work of a genius?
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Gareth Bryne was the one who raised that army, not Egwene. She really have shown no signs what so ever regarding combat tactics. As for willpower, Rand resisted Liandrins compulsion all the way back in TGH, I think that tells a bit about his will power, Mesaana herself didn't seem like such a strong willed person nor that experienced with TAR. I'd give her credits for her intelligence, she is quite smart, but you have to remember one thing regarding her whole rebellion. She only had 1 ball to juggle, Rand have had so many at the same time, and he still managed to manipulate Egwene, Forsakens, Aes Sedai, Cairhiens and other nobles.

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People must remember this thing: What would have happened if there were no Dragon prophecies? Most of the Dragon power actually came from those prophecies and not actual deeds. The idea of Dragon being "savior" and "he is going to break all bonds" is based on prophecies and unfortunately everyone in Rnadland knew these prophecies and they ended up being self-fulfilling. Get rid of those prophecies and Red Ajah would have genteled him long time ago.

 

 

1) So he can save couple inches of land from DO's influence. So what? World can still end.

2) Callandor was left for him because of prophecies and not because Raad and Callondor are "bonded".

3) He doesn't even know how to fix the problem. Min is doing all the reading. So what is he, just a brute force who is using someone else's idea? Is that what saviors do?

 

Pattern created a man to lead and to ensured that people will follow him. Pattern gave prophecies. If anyone should take credit it's the pattern. Eqwene has also gotten some help fro pattern but there were no prophecies written about 3000 years prior to her birth. Her rise to power to more significant.

Edited by WhiskyJack
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Rand himself would be embarrassed to read some of the over the top praising he gets on this board. :laugh:

Genius? Really? Let's be honest, if he wasn't lucky as hell and his opponents weren't such idiots, he'd have been dead 15 times already.

 

 

There is a higher power keeping him alive. He is an instrument of that power and not THE power. And no, that power is not creator;)

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A win to what end if he didnt accomplish any of his objectives?

Ituralde didn't destroy the Seanchan either, or really save Arad Doman from them. I'd still say he won his battles against them quite impressively. This debate started when people stated that Rand possessed no real skill as a General. I think that, even with all the negatives involved, he displayed some pretty good skill in the Altara campaign. Not Mat level, but certainly not as negligible as Egwene, which was the original comparison.

The initial counter to the comparison was that it's hard to say there is a huge gap between them - after all, what is the gap between ? and 100? Egwene skill is completely unknown, as she has delegated everything to Bryne. Rand's skill has been seen and can be assessed - he attempted to throw the Seanchan back into the sea with an army completely unsuited to the job and killed a lot of his own men when he refused to listen to Bashere's advice. Egwene's greatest military accomplishment would probably be fighting the Seanchan - she caused them a lot of casualties, and made the raid more costly than it would otherwise have been. Egwene's skills cannot be said to be negligible - they are unknown. Rand's can be said to be seriously lacking at times.

 

 

A win to what end if he didnt accomplish any of his objectives?

Ituralde didn't destroy the Seanchan either, or really save Arad Doman from them. I'd still say he won his battles against them quite impressively. This debate started when people stated that Rand possessed no real skill as a General. I think that, even with all the negatives involved, he displayed some pretty good skill in the Altara campaign. Not Mat level, but certainly not as negligible as Egwene, which was the original comparison.

 

I have to agree with the people that say that Rand hasn't shown any skill whatsoever as a general. Have we really seen him place troops at the right location and tell them which formations they should use, when to attack and when to wait? All we've seen Rand do is attack personally. A great general can stand half a mile away from the battlefield and his army can still come out victorious. Rand constantly has to use the OP to push back the enemy himself, otherwise his troops would simply be crushed. IMHO he acts more like a weapon or a soldier, but certainly notlike a general (this doesn't mean he's not a great general, it just means that he hasn't shown us yet).

At what point during the Illian campaign did he enter the fray himself?

The time he used Callandor. Most of the generalling was done by Bashere.

 

 

I agree with you, but there are many thoughtful posters who somehow see it completety differently.
Those posters being...? Thus far, most everyone seems to be in agreement that Egwene is not as important as Rand. Whether or not she is an essential part of things or is completely replaceable is debated, but that's a bit different.

 

Some mystery makes life more interesting :tongue:

If Egwene is "essential" (for winning the Last Battle, I guess), then she is equally important as the DR - becasue every essential element is...Well, essential. :wink:

The question should be - could the Last Battle be won without Egwene? I think the answer is yes , the rules of the series allow for it.

Well, that's arguable. After all, we know there are several people who are essential to the LB, such as Moiraine, and EotW does rather seem to indicate that Egwene is part of the group, and therefore quite possibly is also essential to victory. A fair point on all essential things being equally essential, by virtue of being essential. In that respect, if Egwene is an essential component she can be considered Rand's equal. If she is replaceable, then she is not essential and therefore not his equal.

 

A lot of people keep saying LTT was a great general & Rand has his memories, so Rand must be a great general as well. Even though this might be true, it is not very likely. If you put general Patton, Rommel, Lee, etc. in ancient or medieval times, they'll most likely fail miserably. The weapons are different and so are the tactics.

Tactics, yes, strategy, not so much (at least, I was always taught that the principles of strategy were unchanging). Therefore the question of how much LTT has to offer as a general today depends on whether or not he was a great strategist or a great tactician, or both. If a great strtegist, he remains so. If a great tactician, he's lost his high ranking. If both, he might have dropped a few places.

 

 

(3)OP skill: no comparison, LTT was the greatest in AoL.
What about Rand? Also, greatest in the AoL doesn't necessarily mean he is more skilled than Egwene. She was not around in the AoL, after all.

 

(4)Will power: Much greater than Egwene, even though Egwene has considerable will power. Think of what Rand faced and overcame vs. Egwene.
What of opportunity? If Rand has faced greater hardships without breaking, but Egwene has not been tested to her limit, then there is nothing to say that Rand has greater willpower.

 

(7)IQ? Rand, genius intellect, how quickly he learns, given what he faced and overcome, his strategy to take out Grandael (brilliant), the way he played Egwene in book 13, and what Demandred says about LTT "brilliant" (cleansing of saidin), defeating Shai'tan once, and will again.
Seldom has the term genius been so badly abused. Poor, poor genius. His strategy to take out Graendal was competent, but nothing special - and it failed. He played Egwene - but to what end? He got her to get everyone together for a big meeting - something she probably would have done if he'd asked her. Doing things the hard way is a sign of genius now? And even then, getting the better of someone once does not prove you are smarter than them. He defeated Shai'tan and in the process tainted the Source, drove all the male channelers mad and broke the world. Is that really the work of a genius?

 

One cannot ever separate the Rand 'personality' from LTT, memory leakages occurred throughout series. LTT, 400 years+ channeling experience, greatest of AoL. Let's get real. No contest, why you even bring this up is puzzling. In the skill category, she is so far beneath Rand, not even in the same universe.

 

Egwene is not even the most skilled AS in this Age. Nynaeve for instance learns a Weave at after first glance, FAR FAR more skilled. 100 AS Weaves, Nyaneve found them easy, Egwene said they were complex and she has not remembered them all.

 

 

Think of their collar experience. The male adam, Semirhage sends out pain through it, he did not let it affect him, Egwene would scream like a little girl, like any other damane as sul'dam punish them. He lost a hand, thought nothing of it. You can bet Egwene would be screaming like a little girl. Avienhda is amazed that he can stand that much pain (after they are Bonded). Even the Wise Women were impressed after Dragonmount experience. And etc.

 

Without question, Rand is much more mentally stronger than Egwene, he would have to be, being the DR and the fate of the world and the entire Pattern rests on his shoulders. The Creator's champion would have to be the strongest...think about that.

 

The greatest of generals have shown to have high IQ's in the real world. Rand was likely the greatest general in AoL. Grandael would have died if not for the TP trick, even the smartest of the Chosen was very impressed. Certainly no poor genius, a good genius. Even his bitter rival/Demandred called him "brilliant": "Lews Therin had always been a brilliant planner, too, if not so brilliant as EVERYONE made out".

 

Q.E.D.

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Think of their collar experience. The male adam, Semirhage sends out pain through it, he did not let it affect him, Egwene would scream like a little girl, like any other damane as sul'dam punish them. He lost a hand, thought nothing of it. You can bet Egwene would be screaming like a little girl. Avienhda is amazed that he can stand that much pain (after they are Bonded). Even the Wise Women were impressed after Dragonmount experience. And etc.

 

Without question, Rand is much more mentally stronger than Egwene, he would have to be, being the DR and the fate of the world and the entire Pattern rests on his shoulders. The Creator's champion would have to be the strongest...think about that.

 

Ah yes. I see. You have fallen into the same trap as pre-VOG Rand in thinking that hard = strong.

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Guest PiotrekS
I agree with you, but there are many thoughtful posters who somehow see it completety differently.
Those posters being...? Thus far, most everyone seems to be in agreement that Egwene is not as important as Rand. Whether or not she is an essential part of things or is completely replaceable is debated, but that's a bit different.

 

Some mystery makes life more interesting :tongue:

If Egwene is "essential" (for winning the Last Battle, I guess), then she is equally important as the DR - becasue every essential element is...Well, essential. :wink:

The question should be - could the Last Battle be won without Egwene? I think the answer is yes , the rules of the series allow for it.

Well, that's arguable. After all, we know there are several people who are essential to the LB, such as Moiraine, and EotW does rather seem to indicate that Egwene is part of the group, and therefore quite possibly is also essential to victory. A fair point on all essential things being equally essential, by virtue of being essential. In that respect, if Egwene is an essential component she can be considered Rand's equal. If she is replaceable, then she is not essential and therefore not his equal.

 

I agree with that to large extent.

 

People must remember this thing: What would have happened if there were no Dragon prophecies? Most of the Dragon power actually came from those prophecies and not actual deeds. The idea of Dragon being "savior" and "he is going to break all bonds" is based on prophecies and unfortunately everyone in Rnadland knew these prophecies and they ended up being self-fulfilling. Get rid of those prophecies and Red Ajah would have genteled him long time ago.

 

That's an interesting point, but one I feel had more merit before ToM - what happened there shows quite clearly that he is indeed special as a person, not only because both "good" and "bad" sides consider him to be important because of the prophecies.

 

 

I don't know how people can argue about Egwene's military skills in comparison to Rand's or anybody else's. She is not a military person. She is a political leader, a channeler and a Dreamer. Her army was both organized and commanded by others.

 

She has never led an attack (she personally fought the Sanchean, she didn't in fact lead the Aes Sedai in defence against the raid) nor participated in detailed battle planning. Her fighting experience is significant, but as an individual, not as a general. She made one large scale military decision (to march for Tar Valon and lay a siege), but then she was captured and had no chance to supervise even the siege.

 

Even Egwene's fans should accept that she is not an expert in everything, nobody is.

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Guest PiotrekS

Eqwene is a leader. Why would she "lead" bunch of soldiers? Might as well ask Roosevelt and Churchill to fight wars.

 

Some leaders used to lead their armies personally, especially long ago. Rand is at least sometimes this type of leader.

Egwene is, in this regard, a more "modern" type of political leader - she does not engage into detailed military planning or the execution of said plans, she makes decisions such as "we declare war against country X" or choose among the options (to storm or lay siege to Tar Valon?) brought to her by her generals(Bryne). Therefore, discussing about her military capabilities is pointless.

Edited by PiotrekS
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Even excluding being the Creator's Chosen and the Dragon Reborn title, ta'avern, Rand >> Egwene, not in the same league. King vs. peasant.

 

Some fun facts.

 

(1)TAR skill: Egwene might be superior to Rand in TAR. She escaped Moghdien's trap and destroy Messana in TAR.

 

(2)OP strenght: Rand is easily 4+ times stronger than Egwene in Power strength. Given the incredible ease at which he manhandled Egwene+Elayne.

 

(3)OP skill: no comparison, LTT was the greatest in AoL.

 

(4)Will power: Much greater than Egwene, even though Egwene has considerable will power. Think of what Rand faced and overcame vs. Egwene.

 

(5)Physical combat: It is very doubtful that a half a dozen Egwene's could beat 1 Rand, even 1 armed. Rand is build like a bull (6'6", physical attributes fit for the Olympics, and unarmed he easily took out two armed Warders, was the #2 blademaster in WoT, prior to losing his hand).

 

(6)Combat tactics? Egwene has very little, if any. She is a 19 year old girl. Rand, knowledge of LTT, likely the greatest general in AoL.

 

(7)IQ? Rand, genius intellect, how quickly he learns, given what he faced and overcome, his strategy to take out Grandael (brilliant), the way he played Egwene in book 13, and what Demandred says about LTT "brilliant" (cleansing of saidin), defeating Shai'tan once, and will again.

 

 

6 to 1, if not 7 to 0. Total annihilation by Rand.

 

 

Aside:

Better player? Not even close. Egwene has Gawyn...Rand has 3 beautiful women at his beck and call, the most beautiful women ever wanting him like nothing else (but he dumped her, like a BOSS), possilby the most beautiful woman in his Age (Berelain) wanting him, until like a BOSS he also rejected her.

 

Whilst I agree with most of your comparisons, its not necessarily proof that Rand is more important than the Amyrlin Seat, or Egwene in general. Its proof that he's better than her at a lot of things, but that in itself does not make him more important. He is more important (IMO, from the information available at the time) because it is he who is prophecised to save the world, and in that sense, he is irreplaceable. The Amyrlin Seat is not, by the nature of the position, whoever sits on it will be replaced eventually. That he is skilled, powerful, etc. is great, but its not necessarily what makes him important. Bearing in mind, there are many powerful channelers, great commanders and skilled politicians in the WoT that are minor characters, and never considered anywhere near as important as Rand. Its not the skills that make them so.

 

As I said, I agree with most of what you say- the only ones I would question are Willpower and IQ- we do not know that we have seen all of what either are capable of. Since we don't have their IQs written in the books, we are forced to conclude what we can from their thoughts, actions, etc. However, given that in Rand's case his plans often work due to his ta'veren nature, and given that AS apparently take their stupid pills every time Egwene so much as looks at them, I personally find it hard to even judge their intelligence on that. Willpower wise, as people have said, we've not seen Egwene pushed to the extremes Rand has gone to, so its very hard to say whether she would cope under the circumstances or not. Personally, I don't know how well she'd have coped with Cadsuane :P (Love Cadsuane, I really do.)

 

It may be that all of the EotW crew are essential to winning TG (in which case, once again, good job running off on your crazy suicide charge, Lan!), I imagine if this is the case, it will become clear in AMoL. Perhaps all of them were needed to bring the world into the state it is in before TG, uniting nations, forming armies, etc. Perhaps it is vital that Egwene was the Amyrlin Seat and remains so throughout TG, perhaps the Pattern could not have replaced her, and any other Amyrlin elected by the Hall would have resulted in the loss of TG, in which case, as people have said, all essential characters are equally important by virtue of all being essential. However, until we read AMoL and find out otherwise, in which case I will revise my opinion, the only one we know is essential, the only one we know who must PERSONALLY be at the Last Battle, is Rand, the Dragon Reborn. If either the position of Amyrlin, or Egwene as a person, prove essential to TG, then yes, I guess I would have to conclude with others here that they are equally important, albeit in two wildly different roles.

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Even excluding being the Creator's Chosen and the Dragon Reborn title, ta'avern, Rand >> Egwene, not in the same league. King vs. peasant.

 

Some fun facts.

 

(1)TAR skill: Egwene might be superior to Rand in TAR. She escaped Moghdien's trap and destroy Messana in TAR.

 

(2)OP strenght: Rand is easily 4+ times stronger than Egwene in Power strength. Given the incredible ease at which he manhandled Egwene+Elayne.

 

(3)OP skill: no comparison, LTT was the greatest in AoL.

 

(4)Will power: Much greater than Egwene, even though Egwene has considerable will power. Think of what Rand faced and overcame vs. Egwene.

 

(5)Physical combat: It is very doubtful that a half a dozen Egwene's could beat 1 Rand, even 1 armed. Rand is build like a bull (6'6", physical attributes fit for the Olympics, and unarmed he easily took out two armed Warders, was the #2 blademaster in WoT, prior to losing his hand).

 

(6)Combat tactics? Egwene has very little, if any. She is a 19 year old girl. Rand, knowledge of LTT, likely the greatest general in AoL.

 

(7)IQ? Rand, genius intellect, how quickly he learns, given what he faced and overcome, his strategy to take out Grandael (brilliant), the way he played Egwene in book 13, and what Demandred says about LTT "brilliant" (cleansing of saidin), defeating Shai'tan once, and will again.

 

 

6 to 1, if not 7 to 0. Total annihilation by Rand.

 

 

Aside:

Better player? Not even close. Egwene has Gawyn...Rand has 3 beautiful women at his beck and call, the most beautiful women ever wanting him like nothing else (but he dumped her, like a BOSS), possilby the most beautiful woman in his Age (Berelain) wanting him, until like a BOSS he also rejected her.

 

Whilst I agree with most of your comparisons, its not necessarily proof that Rand is more important than the Amyrlin Seat, or Egwene in general. Its proof that he's better than her at a lot of things, but that in itself does not make him more important. He is more important (IMO, from the information available at the time) because it is he who is prophecised to save the world, and in that sense, he is irreplaceable. The Amyrlin Seat is not, by the nature of the position, whoever sits on it will be replaced eventually. That he is skilled, powerful, etc. is great, but its not necessarily what makes him important. Bearing in mind, there are many powerful channelers, great commanders and skilled politicians in the WoT that are minor characters, and never considered anywhere near as important as Rand. Its not the skills that make them so.

 

As I said, I agree with most of what you say- the only ones I would question are Willpower and IQ- we do not know that we have seen all of what either are capable of. Since we don't have their IQs written in the books, we are forced to conclude what we can from their thoughts, actions, etc. However, given that in Rand's case his plans often work due to his ta'veren nature, and given that AS apparently take their stupid pills every time Egwene so much as looks at them, I personally find it hard to even judge their intelligence on that. Willpower wise, as people have said, we've not seen Egwene pushed to the extremes Rand has gone to, so its very hard to say whether she would cope under the circumstances or not. Personally, I don't know how well she'd have coped with Cadsuane :P (Love Cadsuane, I really do.)

 

It may be that all of the EotW crew are essential to winning TG (in which case, once again, good job running off on your crazy suicide charge, Lan!), I imagine if this is the case, it will become clear in AMoL. Perhaps all of them were needed to bring the world into the state it is in before TG, uniting nations, forming armies, etc. Perhaps it is vital that Egwene was the Amyrlin Seat and remains so throughout TG, perhaps the Pattern could not have replaced her, and any other Amyrlin elected by the Hall would have resulted in the loss of TG, in which case, as people have said, all essential characters are equally important by virtue of all being essential. However, until we read AMoL and find out otherwise, in which case I will revise my opinion, the only one we know is essential, the only one we know who must PERSONALLY be at the Last Battle, is Rand, the Dragon Reborn. If either the position of Amyrlin, or Egwene as a person, prove essential to TG, then yes, I guess I would have to conclude with others here that they are equally important, albeit in two wildly different roles.

 

While there is no IQ test available, the way Rand played Egwene there at the end and the way he manipulates so many leaders and lords = high intellect. Keep in mind that guy is only 20 years or so. Combined with the fact that Demandred said LTT was "brilliant" (planner/strategist) and that "everyone" in AoL thought so as well. I would say IQ wise, it goes to Rand.

 

I will conceded that you are right that Egwene has not been pushed as much as Rand, however, given what we have observed thus far, the will power battle thus far goes to Rand. Lastly, if they were to have a will power battle in TAR, who do you think would win? I think we all know who would win that.

 

I would say that any strong Amyrlin would do. But you only have 1 DR, and he is irreplaceable. Mat and Perrin are also irreplaceable and Min hint's at this in the earlier books, plus Ishamael said that killing Perrin would more than ruin the DR.

 

So only 3 characters in the entire series are truly irreplaceable, the rest are filler.

Edited by Entreri
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While there is no IQ test available, the way Rand played Egwene there at the end and the way he manipulates so many leaders and lords = high intellect. Keep in mind that guy is only 20 years or so. Combined with the fact that Demandred said LTT was "brilliant" (planner/strategist) and that "everyone" in AoL thought so as well. I would say IQ wise, it goes to Rand.

 

 

 

Right, because Rand being the strongest ta'veren in 3000 years had absolutely nothing to do with that...

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Nobody is Rands equal. Id say the only things that come even close are Mat, Callandor and the Horn. The rest is all expendable, replaceable. Hell, even Mat is replaceable. Rand isnt. Dragon Ta'veren isnt something one can aspire to.

 

 

Surely you can replace "Dragon" with another as long as prophecies made it so? Imagine for past 3000 years people were reading a certain guy will be born in certain area and will lead the forces of light and that person is NOT DRAGON (word is not mentioned). What do you think will be the end result?

 

I am wondering why was he picked to lead the force of light? Because he is the only who understands failure and probably will not do something stupid, again?

 

P.S: I agree though that champion of light is irreplaceable. It could be anyone though. I guess that's what you were trying to say.

Edited by WhiskyJack
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