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Are the Amyrlin and Dragon Equal?


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Egwene is faced with a relatively small fire - she can quite easily put it out, receive prizes, distinctions, promotions and enjoy her career, high position and simply life long afterwards.

 

The Amrylin...facing TG with a divided tower, filled with forskan and BA and you call that a small fire!?!?

 

To adress a general point: some posters have said that Egwene is equally necessary as Rand is for world's survival. Others went even further and stated that everybody was necessary. This way of thinking, although compatible with our modern ideas of fundamental human equality, stands the whole premise of the series on its head. These are the books about the saviour who isn't some average person picked by random selection or electoral process. Even though we may find this lack of equality not to our liking, that's how the world is constructed by RJ. Though Egwene will undoubtedly play important part in the last book, the basic rules of the world theoretically allow for her to be replaced by somebody else and the Last Battle still could be won (at least we don't know anything that would point otherwise). We know that Moiraine, Rand, Perrin and Mat are absolutely necessary.

 

I think people are taking the whole "pattern can correct itself again and again no matter what happens" much to far. Each thread was placed and put into play so far in advance. Without people like Tigraine, Gitara, Nynaeve, Egwene etc can not just be swapped out at the last minute!

 

A small fired when compared with what Rand is facing.

 

We saw in Aviendha's vision that things could not go perfectly and the world still lives on. There's nothing to say that those people not said to be invaluable for the light to succeed, could not die and things still work.

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I agree with you, but there are many thoughtful posters who somehow see it completety differently. I can't grasp how :huh:

 

 

No thoughtful poster has ever disagreed with me. That is simply not possible. Thoughtful people see that I am right. Those who does not...Apparently not quite as thoughful as they think they are.

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Guest PiotrekS

Egwene is faced with a relatively small fire - she can quite easily put it out, receive prizes, distinctions, promotions and enjoy her career, high position and simply life long afterwards.

 

The Amrylin...facing TG with a divided tower, filled with forskan and BA and you call that a small fire!?!?

 

Relatively small fire :wink: Compared to Rand's fight with all the other Forsaken (including Ishamael), darkfiends, Fain, all the armies, uncertain allies and traitors, madness...Egwene's ultimate enemy she had to defeat in a direct fight was Mesaana. Rand's is the DO. Who is more dangerous?

 

To adress a general point: some posters have said that Egwene is equally necessary as Rand is for world's survival. Others went even further and stated that everybody was necessary. This way of thinking, although compatible with our modern ideas of fundamental human equality, stands the whole premise of the series on its head. These are the books about the saviour who isn't some average person picked by random selection or electoral process. Even though we may find this lack of equality not to our liking, that's how the world is constructed by RJ. Though Egwene will undoubtedly play important part in the last book, the basic rules of the world theoretically allow for her to be replaced by somebody else and the Last Battle still could be won (at least we don't know anything that would point otherwise). We know that Moiraine, Rand, Perrin and Mat are absolutely necessary.

 

I think people are taking the whole "pattern can correct itself again and again no matter what happens" much to far. Each thread was placed and put into play so far in advance. Without people like Tigraine, Gitara, Nynaeve, Egwene etc can not just be swapped out at the last minute!

 

I think Master Ablar got it right - Rand& co are necessary for simple survival of the world.Any world at all. Egwene and others are necessary for this future world to look better than in that dreadful Aviendha's vision.

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Guest PiotrekS

 

 

I agree with you, but there are many thoughtful posters who somehow see it completety differently. I can't grasp how :huh:

 

 

No thoughtful poster has ever disagreed with me. That is simply not possible. Thoughtful people see that I am right. Those who does not...Apparently not quite as thoughful as they think they are.

 

Apparently not :biggrin:

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She rose quickly in prominence, winning great battles, slaying legendary foes, gaining leadership over many peoples.

 

Funny thing is this could very well refer to Egwene as well.

 

I know you are using hyperbole in an attempt to make a point but first order of business ask Rand if he has come to submit to her authority? Come on man. People seem to forget(ignore?) now that she reunited the tower and rooted out forsaken and BA she is already initiating changes to bring the AS back closer to their true purpose. The sexist card may get used to often but in the case of the OP, there is an obvious obsession and tedious negative focus on Egwene and the AS. Just look at all the topics recently started by xxx. I think all most people want is equal credit given on both sides, attempts to downplay and tear down one(often in drastic terms) while glorifying the other just doesn't sit well with most.

 

Yes..because they are inferior to Rand in that matter. You cannot give equal credit because they are not doing equal work.

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In terms of the One Power, Rand is stronger. Time being trained, Egwene longer.

In terms of age, Rand is older.

Daes Daemar, Rand seems more skilled/experienced.

general knowledge, Rand seems to know more.

overall sanity, Egwene might have an advantage there.

 

 

Where does Egwene think herself or her role equal with Dragon Reborn?

For sure nowhere in first 12 books.

You are forgetting that Rand has the memories of his formal life and all of the training that LTT recieved during his life. Rand has hundreds of years of experience, in addition to all of training he recieved in his current life.

I was speaking of their current incarnation.

There might be a chance of Egwene gaining the memories of past incarnations of her soul.

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I think your looking at this wrong. To force an enemy to do what they don't want to do is a win. The battles were written the way they were for a reason. If Rand wanted to kill them all he could have. You do remember he cleansed the taint right?

So the Seanchan won by keeping Rand from taking Ebou Dar? What does the taint have to do with anything?

 

Also, when did he kneel?

He didn't kneel. Maud Chaud is once again imagining things. Next, he'll try to make us dig graves for a grove of oak trees.

Yeah...I was definitely referencing Aviendha's vision. That was funny...I guess.

 

He didn't kneel. Maud Chaud is once again imagining things. Next, he'll try to make us dig graves for a grove of oak trees.

 

Lol... the oaks fought bravely and deserve a proper burial.

 

Victory in battle is not only about crushing the enemy, it can be about slowing them down, or making them change their plans, making them fear you and making them hesitant to strike again.

They truly did.

 

Rand didn't do any of that. If anything, the Seanchan changed Rand's plans. He no longer believed he could defeat them before Tarmon Gai'din.

 

To any Americans out there who are recently out of school. What's the general feeling you get about the War of 1812? Because when I was in school we Canadians tended to get the idea we won because we were defending ourselves and succeeded. I've heard (though I'm very aware this could be due to Canadian filtering) that Americans are taught it was a draw.

 

Seems like a pretty good parallel. It all depends on perspective. I'm no history buff but IIRC, both sides took and lost some land, then they signed a peace treaty and gave most of it back.

 

I'm not saying that's right or wrong. Just seemed to be a parallel as to how the result is going to be defined by whatever side you're on. The fact that Rand seemed to feel quite disappointed with the result suggests a double loss to me, even if he did halt the advance, that wasn't their goal. While Canadians claim (though I doubt it's true) that their intent was only to stop the American invasion.

 

Though I suppose you could claim it's not so black and white, and that "winning" is more a sliding scale and that Rand won more than the Seanchan did, even if you can't quite call it an out-and-out victory.

I grew up in America and I was taught it was a draw, but as it was a war with one of the powerful nations, a draw was a great outcome. Secondly, as the Battle of New Orleans came after peace had been agreed, it gave the appearance of a victory.

 

As the status quo ante bellum was the result of war, I don't think it correctly portrays the outcome of the Battle of Ebou Dar.

 

Rand's goal was to stop the Seanchan advance. And the Seanchan are just as disappointed as Rand is. Difference is Rand won all the battles before the last one whereas the Seanchan lost every one.

They only fought two battles...I guess unless you count Falme.

 

And Rand never tried to utterly destroy them all.

 

TPoD "A time for Iron"

"I mean to find the rest of the Seanchan army and destroy it, Bashere"

 

You can hardly say his failure doesn't matter because of what his initial plan was. As LLT says "No plan of battle survives first contact" you can't just cherry pick the good while ignoring the bad.

 

BTW how good is LTT's commentary in this chapter. RJ at his best for sure...

QFT

 

Re: the Altara Campaign.

 

Lets say I'm a general. I take a force of about 5k troops and engage an army of several hundred thousand highly professional soldiers, successfully outmaneuver and destroy alot of them in order to inspire their commander to bunch the rest of his forces into one big army, then produce and fire a WMD at said army, destroying it almost utterly. Now lets say that my WMD turned out to have been poorly constructed by the tech boys back home and the blast radius kills several of my own troops, leading me to withdraw from the field in a fit of depression. How does that change the fact that I just outfought, outsmarted, outmaneuvered and ultimately destroyed an army many times the size of my own?

 

Even before gaining LTT's memories, Rand was a more than decent General. You guys trying to say that Egwene, who has never commanded an army in the field, is his equal in that regard are delusional.

Yeah, Rand never fought against several hundred thousand Seanchan. At most, there were about 60,000 and they were spread out setting up forts and supply posts.

 

I find it quite absurd this thread has reached 7 pages, as the initial question is absurd in itself.

 

Rand and Egwene can not be compared, since their roles are completely different. Egwene is a political leader, Rand is the bloke destined to defeat the DO. Obviously their paths will have to cross, but they can not, and should not be compared with eachother. It's like asking if Churchill and whoever was in charge of the RAF during the Blitz were equals.

Pretty much, yeah. Every person has a role to play, some like Rand, are bigger than others. And that's the end of it.
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I think you might have a point here. Its less that Egwene and the AS think that the DR is inferior (though there may be some that think that), and much more to do with the idea that the vast majority of AS, including Egwene, seem to hold- that they should always appear strong, that they should appear in control, they should take command, because that is what AS do. This can be seen as a positive or negative thing, but at this time, with the tower only recently reunited, and their internal issues very much revealed to the world, I imagine most of the AS, including ones that we haven't seen who are interacting with the citizens of the world outside the Tower, want more than ever to give off the impression of strength, unity and control. Something that, as many channelers, both male and female are learning, does not always produce the best result. Which is why, instead of trying to to talk to the Dragon Reborn as an equal, or starting their conversation with a formal apology on behalf of the Tower for Elaida's treatment of him, we get "Have you come to submit yourself to the authority of the Tower?"

 

As for this whole thing of "Argh, all the AS should kneel before Rand", you're entitled to your opinion, but please try and keep things in perspective. There is sexism prevalent in the series- one could argue that Rand mourning only the women he'd killed was sexist against both genders, in fact- and a lot of women seem to believe that men are idiots, and potentially dangerous- they broke the world, after all. But by and large, men are not forced to kneel before women and tell them how superior they are. The AS as a group, yes, they're arrogant, rulers bow before them, etc. and often they make mistakes that they refuse to see or admit to as a result of their arrogance, and their tendency to seize charge, or attempt to. But then, some of the male channelers we've seen have not been shining examples of humility, either, I'd say its a general "power-crazed" trait that seems to affect a lot of channelers- they can do something other people can't, therefore they act as though they are superior in general.

 

That said, I don't believe they, or anyone else, should be on their knees before Rand. Acknowledge that HE will lead the battle against the Dark One, yes. Treat him with respect, as a powerful channeler and their ally against the Shadow, yes. Advise and help him with any knowledge they have. Battle the Dark One's forces at TG. Some people reading this series seem far too keen to balance the arrogance of the AS by having them subjugated to Rand and the male channelers, much like I've read some people's opinions in the real world claiming that men should be treated as second class citizens, lose rights, etc. because that's what women had to put up with. Its stupid revenge politics, and would lead to a world just as unbalanced as before. I don't doubt that the AS will be humbled, but I imagine it will be because other channeling organisations will spring up, male channelers will want their place as equals, and the WT and Tar Valon will not hold the same political sway as they used to. They will be brought down to Earth. They, and anyone else in the world, should not have to be on their knees to the Dragon, respect and servitude are two very different things.

 

As long Egwene and the AS admit that their relative importance in the world has shrunk I would be happy. Even leaving aside the Dragon,I mean from an unchallenged position, today there are the Seachan, the Black Tower, The Aiel and the Sea Folk all with access to the OP and none of whom will accept AS authority.Any person with common sense will see that the As power position has shrunk..instead you have Egwene giving speeches like the WT will greater than ever..huh? How exactly is that.

And then you have the arrogance of asking the Dragon to submit to them. They should be the one submitting to him if anything.

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Rand's goal was to stop the Seanchan advance. And the Seanchan are just as disappointed as Rand is. Difference is Rand won all the battles before the last one whereas the Seanchan lost every one.

They only fought two battles...I guess unless you count Falme.

 

They fought a series of battle, or rather skirmishes throughout Eastern Altara, and like I said every on was a victory. Compare the situation for the Seanchan before and after Rand's campaign, and compare the losses the Seanchan took compared to Rand's.

His initial objectives were completed, the Seanchan barely managed to hold on to Ebou Dar, and had Rand taken more than the fraction of forces he did take it might have been worse.

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Where exactly has Egwene shown her "military abilities"..now with the memories of LTT who was the greatest general on the light side with Rand,how exactly can their respective abilities in military matters be compared?

Edited by XXX47
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I think people are taking the whole "pattern can correct itself again and again no matter what happens" much to far. Each thread was placed and put into play so far in advance. Without people like Tigraine, Gitara, Nynaeve, Egwene etc can not just be swapped out at the last minute!

I don't entirely disagree with you here, but if you think about it, there are very few characters in the series with completely unique abilities. There's almost always at least one other character that could have taken on the same role with a bit of tweaking from the Pattern.

 

If Gitara had died before Rand was born, maybe Elaida would have had a Foretelling about his birth in front of Siuan and Moiraine and died afterwards. Rand could have used Alivia at the Cleansing, and Flinn discovered how to heal madness. Nicola was similar to Egwene in many ways (almost as strong in the Power, able to create cuendillar, had a Foretelling Talent and powerful desire to learn). What if the Salidar AS had raised Nicola as Amyrlin instead of Egwene? It's interesting to think about.

 

Even the boys only became ta'veren right before Moiraine arrived in the Two Rivers. If Mat or Perrin had died early on, maybe Galad would have started hearing wolves in his head and Gawyn become exceptionally lucky. Rand is the only one we can say for certain couldn't have been replaced at any point in time.

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Where exactly has Egwene shown her "military abilities"..now with the memories of LTT who was the greatest general on the light side with Rand,how exactly can their respective abilities in military matters be compared?

Yeah, here I definitely agree. Egwene has zero training or practice in military strategy, planning, logistics, etc. She left all of it to Bryne, and rightly so. LTT knowledge is of course outdated by few millennia, but still there's no comparison, and Rand has had a lot of current day practice in participating in military campaigns, battles and discussions with the the top commanders.

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If Rand wanted to kill them all he could have. You do remember he cleansed the taint right?

 

Actually he tried to do that and failed.

 

Muade is correct in that Rand stated he was going to throw the Seanchan back into the sea and take Ebou Dar. Did either of those things happen? No. Don't know why people are acting like his goal was to only stop the advance. The proof is in TPoD.

 

"I mean to drive the Seanchan into the sea!" Rand snapped. Light he had to finish the now when he had the chance."

 

 

If he had listened to Bashere it would have been a victory, as is both men conceded it was a loss. This is in the books, whatever other posters say can't change that. Both sides viewed it as a a loss but the Seanchan eventually continued the advance into Illian.

 

Well now, I'm convinced. All it took was your assurance that only certain people are necessary, with no line of reasoning to back it up, and I'm blown away.

 

HAHA so good, these posts by the OP have stopped being even remotely acceptable long ago.

 

Actually, it's nothing like that at all. And no, it doesn't "go beyond a mere dislike of Egwene and the Tower."

 

Good God man have you been reading xxx47's posts?

 

Wait a minute, Rand took the Choedan Kal and tried to destroy the Seanchan with it?

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I don't really see how Rand or Egwene are braver than eachother. How does Egwene really have a choice? Is she a moral person, does she have a conscience? Then she never really had a choice. But that doesn't make what she did anything but extremely brave. Just like the fact that Rand's actions are just as brave despite the fact that he had no choice in the matter, because as Tam said if Rand had the choice he would not have done differently. And that because Rand is a moral person with a conscience, and because he like Egwene do not ignore their responsability to the world. Therefore just as Egwene acted responsible when she refused to be a puppet and choose to right the WT, Rand was just as responsible when he finaly accepted that he was the Dragon.

 

As for Rand taking a book (tGH) to accept that he was the Dragon, I think that can be forgiven when you consider just what it means to be the Dragon, and in any case Egwene has never had to face that.

 

I don't see the whole bravery argument as holding much water, TBH. Rand was forced into a lot- leaving the Two Rivers, becoming the Dragon Reborn, etc- but he has accepted his destiny and risen to the occasion since then. Egwene at first gave off the impression of a girl wanting adventure- she leaves the Two Rivers, she determines to become AS, etc- but she is also forced into a lot of situations- hunting the Black Ajah, becoming Amyrlin, etc- and chooses to rise to the challenge. Whatever you think of how well they've risen to the challenges of leadership and other roles, at least they have tried, and that is a point in both of their favours.

 

However, I also agree that claiming Egwene is braver because Rand took longer to embrace his destiny and rise to the situation- look at it this way: Egwene goes into dangerous situations (sometimes- I wouldn't say her deciding to go to the White Tower is, in itself, any more dangerous than any of the other girls who choose to journey to Tar Valon), but with the knowledge that, if she makes it out of that situation intact, she will be rewarded in some way- she will be Aes Sedai, she will be a more powerful and effective dreamer, she will be the Amyrlin Seat of a united White Tower, one of the most powerful people in the world. Rand, on the other hand, goes into dangerous situations knowing that, if he comes out of them alive, then he gets the fabulous reward of going mad, possibly killing everyone he knows, and, if he manages to avert that, probably dying at the Last Battle. They are two very, very different situations.

 

 

Egwene thinks so!!..in fact ,I think she thinks she is superior considering that she demands that he "submit" to the tower.

 

I don't think that Egwene believes that she is superior to Rand. I think that she believes that the AS and the tower are in a fragile state right now and she unwisely is trying to project strength and unbending will. The AS, Egwene included will realize the severity of that mistake.

 

I think you might have a point here. Its less that Egwene and the AS think that the DR is inferior (though there may be some that think that), and much more to do with the idea that the vast majority of AS, including Egwene, seem to hold- that they should always appear strong, that they should appear in control, they should take command, because that is what AS do. This can be seen as a positive or negative thing, but at this time, with the tower only recently reunited, and their internal issues very much revealed to the world, I imagine most of the AS, including ones that we haven't seen who are interacting with the citizens of the world outside the Tower, want more than ever to give off the impression of strength, unity and control. Something that, as many channelers, both male and female are learning, does not always produce the best result. Which is why, instead of trying to to talk to the Dragon Reborn as an equal, or starting their conversation with a formal apology on behalf of the Tower for Elaida's treatment of him, we get "Have you come to submit yourself to the authority of the Tower?"

 

As for this whole thing of "Argh, all the AS should kneel before Rand", you're entitled to your opinion, but please try and keep things in perspective. There is sexism prevalent in the series- one could argue that Rand mourning only the women he'd killed was sexist against both genders, in fact- and a lot of women seem to believe that men are idiots, and potentially dangerous- they broke the world, after all. But by and large, men are not forced to kneel before women and tell them how superior they are. The AS as a group, yes, they're arrogant, rulers bow before them, etc. and often they make mistakes that they refuse to see or admit to as a result of their arrogance, and their tendency to seize charge, or attempt to. But then, some of the male channelers we've seen have not been shining examples of humility, either, I'd say its a general "power-crazed" trait that seems to affect a lot of channelers- they can do something other people can't, therefore they act as though they are superior in general.

 

That said, I don't believe they, or anyone else, should be on their knees before Rand. Acknowledge that HE will lead the battle against the Dark One, yes. Treat him with respect, as a powerful channeler and their ally against the Shadow, yes. Advise and help him with any knowledge they have. Battle the Dark One's forces at TG. Some people reading this series seem far too keen to balance the arrogance of the AS by having them subjugated to Rand and the male channelers, much like I've read some people's opinions in the real world claiming that men should be treated as second class citizens, lose rights, etc. because that's what women had to put up with. Its stupid revenge politics, and would lead to a world just as unbalanced as before. I don't doubt that the AS will be humbled, but I imagine it will be because other channeling organisations will spring up, male channelers will want their place as equals, and the WT and Tar Valon will not hold the same political sway as they used to. They will be brought down to Earth. They, and anyone else in the world, should not have to be on their knees to the Dragon, respect and servitude are two very different things.

 

Let us not forget that Egwene position as Amyrlin is not as strong as she or those close to her would have thought or liked. She must project a position of command and power to cement her position.

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I think your looking at this wrong. To force an enemy to do what they don't want to do is a win. The battles were written the way they were for a reason. If Rand wanted to kill them all he could have. You do remember he cleansed the taint right?

So the Seanchan won by keeping Rand from taking Ebou Dar? What does the taint have to do with anything?

 

Also, when did he kneel?

He didn't kneel. Maud Chaud is once again imagining things. Next, he'll try to make us dig graves for a grove of oak trees.

Yeah...I was definitely referencing Aviendha's vision. That was funny...I guess.

 

He didn't kneel. Maud Chaud is once again imagining things. Next, he'll try to make us dig graves for a grove of oak trees.

 

Lol... the oaks fought bravely and deserve a proper burial.

 

Victory in battle is not only about crushing the enemy, it can be about slowing them down, or making them change their plans, making them fear you and making them hesitant to strike again.

They truly did.

 

Rand didn't do any of that. If anything, the Seanchan changed Rand's plans. He no longer believed he could defeat them before Tarmon Gai'din.

 

To any Americans out there who are recently out of school. What's the general feeling you get about the War of 1812? Because when I was in school we Canadians tended to get the idea we won because we were defending ourselves and succeeded. I've heard (though I'm very aware this could be due to Canadian filtering) that Americans are taught it was a draw.

 

Seems like a pretty good parallel. It all depends on perspective. I'm no history buff but IIRC, both sides took and lost some land, then they signed a peace treaty and gave most of it back.

 

I'm not saying that's right or wrong. Just seemed to be a parallel as to how the result is going to be defined by whatever side you're on. The fact that Rand seemed to feel quite disappointed with the result suggests a double loss to me, even if he did halt the advance, that wasn't their goal. While Canadians claim (though I doubt it's true) that their intent was only to stop the American invasion.

 

Though I suppose you could claim it's not so black and white, and that "winning" is more a sliding scale and that Rand won more than the Seanchan did, even if you can't quite call it an out-and-out victory.

I grew up in America and I was taught it was a draw, but as it was a war with one of the powerful nations, a draw was a great outcome. Secondly, as the Battle of New Orleans came after peace had been agreed, it gave the appearance of a victory.

 

As the status quo ante bellum was the result of war, I don't think it correctly portrays the outcome of the Battle of Ebou Dar.

 

Rand's goal was to stop the Seanchan advance. And the Seanchan are just as disappointed as Rand is. Difference is Rand won all the battles before the last one whereas the Seanchan lost every one.

They only fought two battles...I guess unless you count Falme.

 

And Rand never tried to utterly destroy them all.

 

TPoD "A time for Iron"

"I mean to find the rest of the Seanchan army and destroy it, Bashere"

 

You can hardly say his failure doesn't matter because of what his initial plan was. As LLT says "No plan of battle survives first contact" you can't just cherry pick the good while ignoring the bad.

 

BTW how good is LTT's commentary in this chapter. RJ at his best for sure...

QFT

 

Re: the Altara Campaign.

 

Lets say I'm a general. I take a force of about 5k troops and engage an army of several hundred thousand highly professional soldiers, successfully outmaneuver and destroy alot of them in order to inspire their commander to bunch the rest of his forces into one big army, then produce and fire a WMD at said army, destroying it almost utterly. Now lets say that my WMD turned out to have been poorly constructed by the tech boys back home and the blast radius kills several of my own troops, leading me to withdraw from the field in a fit of depression. How does that change the fact that I just outfought, outsmarted, outmaneuvered and ultimately destroyed an army many times the size of my own?

 

Even before gaining LTT's memories, Rand was a more than decent General. You guys trying to say that Egwene, who has never commanded an army in the field, is his equal in that regard are delusional.

Yeah, Rand never fought against several hundred thousand Seanchan. At most, there were about 60,000 and they were spread out setting up forts and supply posts.

 

I find it quite absurd this thread has reached 7 pages, as the initial question is absurd in itself.

 

Rand and Egwene can not be compared, since their roles are completely different. Egwene is a political leader, Rand is the bloke destined to defeat the DO. Obviously their paths will have to cross, but they can not, and should not be compared with eachother. It's like asking if Churchill and whoever was in charge of the RAF during the Blitz were equals.

Pretty much, yeah. Every person has a role to play, some like Rand, are bigger than others. And that's the end of it.

 

No. Rand failed with his plans to destroy the Seanchan. He did however stop the Seanchan advance, or at least slow it and give them something to consider. In this regard he won a small battle. Rand used the Choedan Kal to use enough power to destroy the Taint, that much power could have easily been used to destroy most of the Seanchan and send them packing.

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Wait a minute, Rand took the Choedan Kal and tried to destroy the Seanchan with it?

 

You have read the series, I'm assuming you understand Rand tried to use callandor(more than sufficient power for the task) to destroy the Seanchan during that battle and failed. Not sure why you would try to act ignorant on that count?

 

If Gitara had died before Rand was born, maybe Elaida would have had a Foretelling about his birth in front of Siuan and Moiraine and died afterwards.

 

What I was trying to convey here is how intricate the pattern truly is. If Gitara hadnt convinced Tigraine to go to the waste, Rand would not even have been born. This is the last battle, and a very complex sequence of events has to happen in the right order for the light to stand a chance. Many people have played roles to get things in their proper place, to diminish the accomplishments of any of them or act like they can be substituted endlessly would make the whole story fairly pointless.

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Guest PiotrekS

If Gitara had died before Rand was born, maybe Elaida would have had a Foretelling about his birth in front of Siuan and Moiraine and died afterwards.

 

What I was trying to convey here is how intricate the pattern truly is. If Gitara hadnt convinced Tigraine to go to the waste, Rand would not even have been born. This is the last battle, and a very complex sequence of events has to happen in the right order for the light to stand a chance. Many people have played roles to get things in their proper place, to diminish the accomplishments of any of them or act like they can be substituted endlessly would make the whole story fairly pointless.

 

You're right, but acting as though every person who played some part in the story is as important as the Dragon makes it equally pointless.Gitara's, Tigraine's etc. importance to the story derives from Rand's.

 

To make an analogy - you want to stage "Hamlet" in a theatre. It is necessary to cast somebody for Hamlet and it is also necessary to cast somebody for Rosencrantz. But you can't really say that Rosenkrantz is equally important to the story as Hamlet, even though he should also be there and play some part.

Edited by PiotrekS
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What I was trying to convey here is how intricate the pattern truly is. If Gitara hadnt convinced Tigraine to go to the waste, Rand would not even have been born. This is the last battle, and a very complex sequence of events has to happen in the right order for the light to stand a chance. Many people have played roles to get things in their proper place, to diminish the accomplishments of any of them or act like they can be substituted endlessly would make the whole story fairly pointless.

I agree with that. Min's viewing about the fireflies in TEotW says as much; the whole group was necessary. But the appearance of people with similar talents does makes you wonder if the Pattern also kept backups around for some of them in case someone were to die or otherwise fail to meet his or her duty. Could Elyas have filled in for Perrin, and Nicola replaced Egwene? To what extent can important chess pieces be replaced?

 

It's interesting to think about, particularly in the light of the alternate lives Rand saw in TGH. He saw other Aes Sedai than Moiraine come to the Two Rivers for him, and sometimes he was the only one to leave with Moiraine, but those lives also ended badly. IMO, this suggests the Pattern would have tried to find replacements, but the current group of people is the only combination that would have worked.

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Well, of course that has nothing to do with this thread. Maybe it would be more productive to create a "Why XXX47 hates Egwene and Aes Sedai" thread and leave all the others alone. But to answer your question, I was under the impression that mistrust and arrogance are not the same as contempt and hatred. You know, like the difference between "I know better than you so you should do as I say" and "You're a worm who deserves to be crushed". That being said, I'm sure you'll find a way to explain to me why I'm completely wrong, but I won't see your answer until tonight, so have fun with it in the meantime.

 

 

I don't hate them..I want a self realization by the AS that their power is no more what it was..as they refuse to do that,it is nice seeing them get hammered by one group after another especially by the "woolheaded" Dragon.

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Well, of course that has nothing to do with this thread. Maybe it would be more productive to create a "Why XXX47 hates Egwene and Aes Sedai" thread and leave all the others alone. But to answer your question, I was under the impression that mistrust and arrogance are not the same as contempt and hatred. You know, like the difference between "I know better than you so you should do as I say" and "You're a worm who deserves to be crushed". That being said, I'm sure you'll find a way to explain to me why I'm completely wrong, but I won't see your answer until tonight, so have fun with it in the meantime.

 

 

I don't hate them..I want a self realization by the AS that their power is no more what it was..as they refuse to do that,it is nice seeing them get hammered by one group after another especially by the "woolheaded" Dragon.

 

You don't hate them, but you like seeing them get hammered by others? Sounds like a bit of a contradiction.

 

It just gets a little bit old when almost every comment you make is anti-Aes Sedai or anti-Egwene in some way or another. If you don't like them, why not spend your time talking about other characters, or plot developments that don't involve them so much? There's no need to create new topics just to rant about the White Tower.

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I don't really see how Rand or Egwene are braver than eachother. How does Egwene really have a choice? Is she a moral person, does she have a conscience? Then she never really had a choice. But that doesn't make what she did anything but extremely brave. Just like the fact that Rand's actions are just as brave despite the fact that he had no choice in the matter, because as Tam said if Rand had the choice he would not have done differently. And that because Rand is a moral person with a conscience, and because he like Egwene do not ignore their responsability to the world. Therefore just as Egwene acted responsible when she refused to be a puppet and choose to right the WT, Rand was just as responsible when he finaly accepted that he was the Dragon.

 

As for Rand taking a book (tGH) to accept that he was the Dragon, I think that can be forgiven when you consider just what it means to be the Dragon, and in any case Egwene has never had to face that.

Well, look at how long Rand spent running away - I think that shows that if he had a choice he would have chosen differently.

 

 

The Aiel are irrelevant, as their fighting skill says nothing of Rand's personal military skill. I could accept that what I said at first might have been misconstrued, but surely my clarification should have cleared up any misunderstanding? I did specify I was talking about the competence of Rand as a general, versus that of Egwene as a general, not in the capabilities of their respective armed forces. Having any number of Great Captains under you is thus not in the slightest bit a relevant consideration. The only thing you bring up that is even remotely related to what I said was LTT's competence as a general, but which battles has he won in the series? I also pointed out that Egwene has lacked opportunity to prove herself as a general.

 

We know that LTT was more or less the greatest general in the AoL, even if he hasn't fought any battles in the current series. Egwene has lacked oppurtunity because she has left military things to Gareth Bryne, so she never tried her hand. She clearly thought it best to leave those things to people who were more experienced, more knowlegable. While Rand is already a good military leader, if not the best, with addition of LTT, it sort of kills any possible comparison.

I see no evidence that Rand should be counted amongst the best military leaders in the series' present. He's not incompetent, but that's about all that can be said for sure.

 

 

And if you recall Rand attempting to throw the Seanchan into the sea and failing, your recollection is faulty. It never happened.
"'I mean to drive the Seanchan into the sea,' Rand snapped." PoD 24.

 

 

Verin told Rand in WH that the Seanchan have started entering Illian again:

 

“Oh, yes. The Seanchan. They are in Illian. Not the city, not yet; no need to go pale. But they have crossed the border. They are building fortified camps along the coast and inland.
More than a year later.
Actually, there's about a month between this comment and the Seanchan being repulsed in PoD. About six months has taken place for all the books in the series after the invasion.

 

 

I don't see the whole bravery argument as holding much water, TBH. Rand was forced into a lot- leaving the Two Rivers, becoming the Dragon Reborn, etc- but he has accepted his destiny and risen to the occasion since then. Egwene at first gave off the impression of a girl wanting adventure- she leaves the Two Rivers, she determines to become AS, etc- but she is also forced into a lot of situations- hunting the Black Ajah, becoming Amyrlin, etc- and chooses to rise to the challenge. Whatever you think of how well they've risen to the challenges of leadership and other roles, at least they have tried, and that is a point in both of their favours.

 

However, I also agree that claiming Egwene is braver because Rand took longer to embrace his destiny and rise to the situation- look at it this way: Egwene goes into dangerous situations (sometimes- I wouldn't say her deciding to go to the White Tower is, in itself, any more dangerous than any of the other girls who choose to journey to Tar Valon), but with the knowledge that, if she makes it out of that situation intact, she will be rewarded in some way- she will be Aes Sedai, she will be a more powerful and effective dreamer, she will be the Amyrlin Seat of a united White Tower, one of the most powerful people in the world. Rand, on the other hand, goes into dangerous situations knowing that, if he comes out of them alive, then he gets the fabulous reward of going mad, possibly killing everyone he knows, and, if he manages to avert that, probably dying at the Last Battle. They are two very, very different situations.

On the other hand, Egwene didn't need to go into dangerous situations to begin with. Rand did. I fhe tried to avoid it, the Pattern would turn him around.

 

Re: the oh-so-predictable deployment of the Sexist Card.
Which no-one has actually played. In fact, I specifically noted that I wasn't calling XXX47's remarks sexist, if only because they were directed at AS and not women. Noting that he displays an unpleasant attitude towards AS is not the same as saying he is sexist, people have said the former, not the latter.

 

 

The argument that Egwene is braver because she choose her path and Rand did not is extremely silly. I choose to fight fires for a living. That doesn't make me automatically braver than a random passerby who pulls people from a burning building (the opposite is very probably true). Bravery is in the action, not in how you came to find yourself in a position to act.

I would disagree with that analogy - I see it as more like a man trapped in a burning building and another man outside, firefighter or not. The man in the building can stay put and hope for rescue, or try and find his way out, but he has no choice about being in a burning building. The man outside doesn't have to run in to save people - he has a choice about whether or not he puts himself in danger. And I see a willingness to put your life at risk as being braver (if usually also more foolish) than finding your life in danger and merely trying to survive.

 

But you fail to see that Rand's and Egwene's burning houses are completely different (to continue your analogy).

Except they're not. Rand might be in a hotter part of the house, but it's still the same house. Rand is still trapped in a burning building, Egwene is still rushing into it.

 

Rand and Egwene can not be compared, since their roles are completely different. Egwene is a political leader, Rand is the bloke destined to defeat the DO. Obviously their paths will have to cross, but they can not, and should not be compared with eachother. It's like asking if Churchill and whoever was in charge of the RAF during the Blitz were equals.

 

I agree with you, but there are many thoughtful posters who somehow see it completety differently.

Those posters being...? Thus far, most everyone seems to be in agreement that Egwene is not as important as Rand. Whether or not she is an essential part of things or is completely replaceable is debated, but that's a bit different.
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Verin told Rand in WH that the Seanchan have started entering Illian again:

 

“Oh, yes. The Seanchan. They are in Illian. Not the city, not yet; no need to go pale. But they have crossed the border. They are building fortified camps along the coast and inland.
More than a year later.
Actually, there's about a month between this comment and the Seanchan being repulsed in PoD. About six months has taken place for all the books in the series after the invasion.

 

I wasn't aware of the actual timeline and just took everyone at their word that it was a year later. At only one month that really puts the whole campaign in a diff light...not sure if Rand can truly be said to have stopped the Seanchan advance if that is the case.

Edited by Suttree
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I wasn't aware of the actual timeline and just took everyone at their word that it was a year later. At only one month that really puts the whole campaign in a diff light...not sure if Rand can truly be said to have stopped the Seanchan advance if that is the case.

 

He didn't stop their advance.

 

He did destroy an army of maybe a hundred thousand of the enemies highly trained troops while only loosing a couple of thousand men of dubious loyalty. I put that one in the win column.

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