Does Siuan know about Verin in TGH? [spoiler]

[amaranth]

In my re-read of TGH, Siuan stops Verin as she begins to say "The Great Lord of Darkness" instead of "The Dark One" in front of Moraine. They way she stops Verin, and that she is not shocked, seems suspicious to me. It's like she knew what Verin was going to say and stopped her from blundering in front of Moraine.

 

Siuan isn't Black Ajah at the end, but it sounds like she found out what Verin was and has kept her secret.

[MauricXe]

What chapter?

[Southpaw89]

If I remember correctly it's when Siuan goes to Fal Dara and meets Moiraine to discuss stuff and Verin is in the room

[Mightelove]

Suiane always knew more than she let on and was certainly not above using someone for her own devices, no matter their alignment.

 

That isn't proof positive, by any means, that she knew. But there is always a good chance that she knew or suspected.

[Ananta]

Shame I don't have the book at hand as I am in the army at the moment, but I'd very much like to see a quote of that.

[Sharaman]

Umm is this the scene where Verin is analysing the poem written on the dungeon wall and she says "and of course, The Great Lord means"-- and Suian interrupts and says " I know what it means daughter".

I don't think there's any cause to imagine Suian was unnaturally suspicious of Verin being BA. For one thing, she and Moiraine accept in the same scene that verin has worked out who Rand is and don't smother her as a BA member.

Incidentally the poem says "Now the Great Lord comes" so there's no reason to imagine that Verin would use the whole title of the GLoD, she was just quoting the specific text.

[Balto]

I'm pretty sure this was just a case of Verin translating Trolloc script. And Trollocs would refer to the Dark One as the Great Lord. So I don't think Siuan meant to stop Verin from blundering, she was just trying to stop Verin rambling on about what Siuan believed was obvious to the three of them.

[herid]

Umm is this the scene where Verin is analysing the poem written on the dungeon wall and she says "and of course, The Great Lord means"-- and Suian interrupts and says " I know what it means daughter".

I don't think there's any cause to imagine Suian was unnaturally suspicious of Verin being BA. For one thing, she and Moiraine accept in the same scene that verin has worked out who Rand is and don't smother her as a BA member.

Incidentally the poem says "Now the Great Lord comes" so there's no reason to imagine that Verin would use the whole title of the GLoD, she was just quoting the specific text.

exactly.

here is the full quote btw

 

“I can only give you what I know, Mother,” Verin said, looking up from her notes, “and leave the decision in your hands. I believe the last of Artur Hawkwing’s foreign armies died long ago, but because I believe it does not make it so. The Time of Change, of course, refers to the end of an Age, and the Great Lord—”

 

The Amyrlin slapped the tabletop like a thunderclap. “I know very well who the Great Lord is, Daughter. I think you had better go now.” She took a deep breath, and took hold of herself visibly. “Go, Verin. I do not want to become angry with you. I do not want to forget who it was had the cooks leave sweetcakes out at night when I was a novice.”

-TGH, Ch 7

There is nothing at all suspicious here. Verin is translating the prophecy and Siuan is impatient to get rid of her because she wants to talk to Moiraine. so when Verin starts stating the obvious Siuan snaps at her. She is no more suspicious of Verin than of anybody else. And in any case there is absolutely no way that Siuan would not do anything about Verin if she knew that Verin was Black.

[mb]

Like others, Siuan does not express suspicions in this passage; or even in this book.

 

First (and only) time Siuan expresses suspicions against Verin seems to be when she speaks to the 2 Two Rivers girls after their return from Falme.

[paetric]

I doubt RJ knew Verin was going to end up black when he was writing this book anyway.

[mb]

The revelation in Gathering Storm I guess was part of the notes.

If so, Robert Jordan must have decided it at some point.

[JKN-SW]

I doubt RJ knew Verin was going to end up black when he was writing this book anyway.

 

I find it hard to believe that the alliance of such a central figure as Verin would not be determined from the very beginning she entered the books. After all, she lies later in the book when she joins up with the heroes and says Moraine sent her, wich she didn't. And from the beginnign she is behaving mysteriously in many ways. I'm definitley think RJ had decided her role from the biginning.

[francy]

I doubt RJ knew Verin was going to end up black when he was writing this book anyway.

 

I find it hard to believe that the alliance of such a central figure as Verin would not be determined from the very beginning she entered the books. After all, she lies later in the book when she joins up with the heroes and says Moraine sent her, wich she didn't. And from the beginnign she is behaving mysteriously in many ways. I'm definitley think RJ had decided her role from the biginning.

 

I agree completely - besides, RJ has proven himself to be forward thinking in every aspect - plots that we saw unfold later that were present in EOTW... I don't think there was much he did in these books that he didn't originally intend from the beginning.

 

I also agree that Suaine would not have known, or even suspected that Verin was BA - no more than any other Aes Sedai... And if she did she would have done something about it, because she would not have known that Verin was spying for the Light. Verin would not have been able to tell her that, without touching on her Oaths to the DO, which she could only reveal at the hour of her death...

[paetric]

I doubt RJ knew Verin was going to end up black when he was writing this book anyway.

 

I find it hard to believe that the alliance of such a central figure as Verin would not be determined from the very beginning she entered the books. After all, she lies later in the book when she joins up with the heroes and says Moraine sent her, wich she didn't. And from the beginnign she is behaving mysteriously in many ways. I'm definitley think RJ had decided her role from the biginning.

 

I agree completely - besides, RJ has proven himself to be forward thinking in every aspect - plots that we saw unfold later that were present in EOTW... I don't think there was much he did in these books that he didn't originally intend from the beginning.

 

I also agree that Suaine would not have known, or even suspected that Verin was BA - no more than any other Aes Sedai... And if she did she would have done something about it, because she would not have known that Verin was spying for the Light. Verin would not have been able to tell her that, without touching on her Oaths to the DO, which she could only reveal at the hour of her death...

 

 

I think we all like to think RJ had this far reaching and forward thinking story right from the start but we tend to forget this story developed over two decades and it still isn't complete.

We also tend to forget that the first books were developed as a trilogy so it stands to reason that this great reveal of Verin developed over time.

 

 

[UncleButcher1980]

Considering Verin told a lie in The Great Hunt (telling Rand that Moiraine had sent her) then I would think it likely that Robert Jordan intended her to Black Ajah all along.

[DemandredFO]

I'm pretty sure Moiraine knew at least by her letter to Rand that Verin was BA.

As for RJ, Verin might have always been BA, but several things had to be worked out, like the instant no gateway travel and Ishamael dying 3 times. I've always wondered if he was really hard to kill or if at least one was when RJ had to kill at least 12 foresaken over 3 books not 14.

[paetric]

Considering Verin told a lie in The Great Hunt (telling Rand that Moiraine had sent her) then I would think it likely that Robert Jordan intended her to Black Ajah all along.

 

 

Yeah my mistake.

 

I'm pretty sure Moiraine knew at least by her letter to Rand that Verin was BA.

As for RJ, Verin might have always been BA, but several things had to be worked out, like the instant no gateway travel and Ishamael dying 3 times. I've always wondered if he was really hard to kill or if at least one was when RJ had to kill at least 12 foresaken over 3 books not 14.

 

*nods* I still think we tend to give RJ more credit for something that developed over 20 plus years. But I see your point.

[herid]

Considering Verin told a lie in The Great Hunt (telling Rand that Moiraine had sent her) then I would think it likely that Robert Jordan intended her to Black Ajah all along.

 

 

Yeah my mistake.

 

I'm pretty sure Moiraine knew at least by her letter to Rand that Verin was BA.

As for RJ, Verin might have always been BA, but several things had to be worked out, like the instant no gateway travel and Ishamael dying 3 times. I've always wondered if he was really hard to kill or if at least one was when RJ had to kill at least 12 foresaken over 3 books not 14.

 

*nods* I still think we tend to give RJ more credit for something that developed over 20 plus years. But I see your point.

I'm quite sure that RJ had very early plans to make Verin Black because of that lie she told in TGH. But he did invent other things as the series moved along. For example, I'm quite certain that the notion of TP was not yet developed when LoC was written. When Aran'gar shows up at the end of LoC to free Moggy, Moggy's immediate reaction on seeing Aran'gar make a ball of light was that this must be a woman channeling saidin somehow even though that should be impossible. But this is hardly the most natural assumption here. What she should have thought was that this was a woman channeling TP.

[mb]

Actually Verin told it to the other 2 taveren and Ingtar. One of those 3 probably told Rand.

 

It could have been Verin's interpretation/belief/etc of some statement Moiraine made.

[jsbrads]

That was an interesting rereading of the dialogue, had Verin been allowed to finish her statement "tGL means the Great Lord of the Dark." so what, she is Brown and she studied the way FotD tlk and she knows that name of DO.

We all know that she was never really a FotD so she probably always thought of IT as DO and had to remember in the balck ajah meeting not to say DO, but even there she probabl would have goten away with it as she is Brown. She may be used to saying tGLotD in Black meetings, but I doubt she really thinks of IT as anything other than DO.

Besides Black Ajah probably have it much easier than your average FotD in that her oaths can actually prevent her from making a mistake. People can't even say something if an oath precludes it (many references)

[Snail]

I tend to think that even if it wasn't intended for her to be Black Ajah from the very beginning, something was always "off" about Verin, and it was made clear. I enjoyed the part where she decides not to poison Cadsuane after all. Verin was always my Snape, and I gloried in her redemption.

[mb]

Since the revelation, I have seen Verin as a Light-sided Black.

Kind of similar to Ingtar & Asmodean switching sides; Asmodean in a smaller degree.

 

Just wondering, FotD meaning Friends of the Dark?

[Kahsm]

Since the revelation, I have seen Verin as a Light-sided Black.

Kind of similar to Ingtar & Asmodean switching sides; Asmodean in a smaller degree.

 

Just wondering, FotD meaning Friends of the Dark?

 

AFAIK she never intended to be black and never was at heart. She is just a very hands-on brown who went undercover but got herself into a "so you're going to swear our oaths right?" situation and had no way out. So she swore the oaths and made the most of it.

 

I liken it to when an undercover narco cop is offered drugs. It could be death to turn it down, but taking the drugs could harm your credibility and the case.

[amaranth]

Oh duh! Forgot that she was quoting what was on the wall.

[mike c]

Considering Verin told a lie in The Great Hunt (telling Rand that Moiraine had sent her) then I would think it likely that Robert Jordan intended her to Black Ajah all along.

 

 

Yeah my mistake.

 

I'm pretty sure Moiraine knew at least by her letter to Rand that Verin was BA.

As for RJ, Verin might have always been BA, but several things had to be worked out, like the instant no gateway travel and Ishamael dying 3 times. I've always wondered if he was really hard to kill or if at least one was when RJ had to kill at least 12 foresaken over 3 books not 14.

 

*nods* I still think we tend to give RJ more credit for something that developed over 20 plus years. But I see your point.

I'm quite sure that RJ had very early plans to make Verin Black because of that lie she told in TGH. But he did invent other things as the series moved along. For example, I'm quite certain that the notion of TP was not yet developed when LoC was written. When Aran'gar shows up at the end of LoC to free Moggy, Moggy's immediate reaction on seeing Aran'gar make a ball of light was that this must be a woman channeling saidin somehow even though that should be impossible. But this is hardly the most natural assumption here. What she should have thought was that this was a woman channeling TP.

Great point very interesting.