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Kahsm

Who teaches false dragons to channel?

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Reading TEotW again, Moiraine tells Nynaeve that the Aes Sedai don't worry too much about finding sparkers because they're dangerous to others, but dangerous to themselves, they may die. She says,

 

Aes Sedai search for girls who can touch the true source unguided, just as assiduously as we search for me who can do so. It is not a desire to increase our numbers, or at least not only that. Nor is it a fear that those women will misuse the power. The rough control of the power they may gain, if the light shines on them, is rarely enough to do any great damage, especially since the actual touching of the source is beyond their control without a teacher, and comes only randomly.

 

Seems odd that men seem to chance into the full blown embracing and weaving without teachers. I could understand if you were told what you were and therefore you could experiment the way Rand did. But without that, shouldnt' the survivors just adapt a'la Nynaeve? Instead they get good too since a couple of the old false dragons are said to have stilled, killed, and captured 3-6 Aes Sedai while being taken down.

Edited by Kael Pyralis

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Most die, but some get lucky, learn on their own, and become quite strong. They're the equivalent of "Wilders" in the WT. They learn "tricks" that help them get what they want/need. Stilling, killing, and capturing (shielding) Aes Sedai could very easily be some of those tricks that they learn to survive. Those who don't learn those tricks don't last very long. That's why there aren't that many false Dragons nor are there many wilder male channelers who "slip through the cracks" and live very long to go crazy.

 

Also, it's highly possible that some male channelers (like Taim, perhaps) make oaths to the DO and receive/received training from Ishamael.

Edited by jemron

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Most die, but some get luck, learn on their own, and become quite strong. They're the equivalent of "Wilders" in the WT. They learn "tricks" that help them get what they want/need. Stilling, killing, and capturing (shielding) Aes Sedai could very easily be some of those tricks that they learn to survive.

 

That's kind of my point. What you said is likely all true, but the false dragons did not just channel "roughly controlled tricks". And their "tricks" certainly don't allow them to defeat up to 6 Aes Sedai at once.

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Remember that because the gene for channeling/sparking just has to be present, there should be just as many male sparkers as female. If you look at how many female sparkers there actually are, I could expect 1 male every few? 30? years to realise what he is doing and learn to control it somewhat. Remember men who fight also get taught (sometimes) the Oneness, which will enhance their ease of learning to touch the source.

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Also we should keep in mind that channeling Saidin and Saidar are very different. How that affects not accidentily killing oneself, I am not sure.

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Remember that because the gene for channeling/sparking just has to be present, there should be just as many male sparkers as female. If you look at how many female sparkers there actually are, I could expect 1 male every few? 30? years to realise what he is doing and learn to control it somewhat. Remember men who fight also get taught (sometimes) the Oneness, which will enhance their ease of learning to touch the source.

 

Obviously you can be a bad person without being insane or a dark friend. Greed or lust for power alone could make a female sparker do something "false dragon"-like. But Moiraine seemed quite convinced that female sparkers that survive are no threat because they cannot gain real control without a teacher. Could be Aes Sedai arrogance, but obviously they have no record of a rogue sparker causing trouble. My implication being that the numbers game you suggest wouldn't apply. If we are to assume that sparking is similar for male/females (which is a good guess since Moiraine's description of sparking fit Rand to a T), then it would follow that no men should be able to gain control without a teacher too. You adapt like Nynaeve, or you die.

 

I know there are Kin who had never been to the WT, but are there any kin who could actually channel, and knew they were channeling, before they met other Kin?

 

Also, I could accept, because of the differences in m/f channeling, that Moiraine's understanding just simply isn't true for men, but it could also suggest someone did "help" all these false dragons.

Edited by Kael Pyralis

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All Kin are Tower trained, they don't admit wilders.

 

Logically some of the untrained must gain concious control of the Power, after all someone taught herself first how to channel saidar once upon a time without a teacher. It's probably very rare, but it must happen once in awhile.

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Ishamael might have taught various saidin channelers during the periods he was free.

One likely time for that would be the Trolloc Wars. And the Dreadlords might have taught each other after a portion of them learned from Ishamael.

 

All other times, I take Third Age saidin sparkers were (for the most part) separate from each other.

 

 

About Kin, a portion of them were Tower trained; but not all.

And they do admit wilders.

Before Elayne & Nynaeve, they were cautious around Aes Sedia.

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Obviously you can be a bad person without being insane or a dark friend. Greed or lust for power alone could make a female sparker do something "false dragon"-like. But Moiraine seemed quite convinced that female sparkers that survive are no threat because they cannot gain real control without a teacher. Could be Aes Sedai arrogance, but obviously they have no record of a rogue sparker causing trouble. My implication being that the numbers game you suggest wouldn't apply. If we are to assume that sparking is similar for male/females (which is a good guess since Moiraine's description of sparking fit Rand to a T), then it would follow that no men should be able to gain control without a teacher too. You adapt like Nynaeve, or you die.

 

I know there are Kin who had never been to the WT, but are there any kin who could actually channel, and knew they were channeling, before they met other Kin?

 

Also, I could accept, because of the differences in m/f channeling, that Moiraine's understanding just simply isn't true for men, but it could also suggest someone did "help" all these false dragons.

 

Don't take character POV as Truth on how the world works. There can be a myriad of reasons why Moiraine does not consider female sparkers to be a threat.

 

First, it is known that male channelers are stronger than females, and the relative difference is about the same as the difference in physical strength between men and women. In case you didn't realize it, that is a HUGE difference. Think WWE: even Chyna would get manhandled by the likes of Lex Luger, Kain, Kurt Angle, or Kevin Nash.

 

Second, people follow False Dragons not because he can channel, but because he claims to be the Dragon Reborn. The prophecies state clearly that the Dragon Reborn is a dude. Female channelers just can't leverage the power of the Karaethon Cycle. If she tries to raise an army, people are likely to just report her to the White Tower instead.

 

Third, because of the very fact that there is a White Tower, rogue channelers tend to lay low. It doesn't matter how powerful you are, 13 Aes Sedai can take you down. In practice, probably much less Aes Sedai are needed for even the strongest female rogue channelers. Look at how much trouble even Nynaeve and Elayne had against a handful of Black Sisters. The only ways for channelers to gain protection from the White Tower is to either pass under their radar, or to raise a strong enough army. For the second option, see #2.

 

Fourth, because of the realities presented by #3, most channelers just try to live in peace. That's why female sparkers serve as village wisdoms, etc. As long as they don't use their power to oppress people (too much), the White Tower will leave them alone. Men of course, are a completely different matter. They are feared and reviled by their own community, and often hunted down before they even get a chance to go insane. This is a kind of natural selection, as only the most powerful and cunning male channelers manage to survive. Add to that a dollop of ambition, and you get a False Dragon.

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Obviously you can be a bad person without being insane or a dark friend. Greed or lust for power alone could make a female sparker do something "false dragon"-like. But Moiraine seemed quite convinced that female sparkers that survive are no threat because they cannot gain real control without a teacher. Could be Aes Sedai arrogance, but obviously they have no record of a rogue sparker causing trouble. My implication being that the numbers game you suggest wouldn't apply. If we are to assume that sparking is similar for male/females (which is a good guess since Moiraine's description of sparking fit Rand to a T), then it would follow that no men should be able to gain control without a teacher too. You adapt like Nynaeve, or you die.

 

I know there are Kin who had never been to the WT, but are there any kin who could actually channel, and knew they were channeling, before they met other Kin?

 

Also, I could accept, because of the differences in m/f channeling, that Moiraine's understanding just simply isn't true for men, but it could also suggest someone did "help" all these false dragons.

 

Don't take character POV as Truth on how the world works. There can be a myriad of reasons why Moiraine does not consider female sparkers to be a threat.

 

First, it is known that male channelers are stronger than females, and the relative difference is about the same as the difference in physical strength between men and women. In case you didn't realize it, that is a HUGE difference. Think WWE: even Chyna would get manhandled by the likes of Lex Luger, Kain, Kurt Angle, or Kevin Nash.

 

Second, people follow False Dragons not because he can channel, but because he claims to be the Dragon Reborn. The prophecies state clearly that the Dragon Reborn is a dude. Female channelers just can't leverage the power of the Karaethon Cycle. If she tries to raise an army, people are likely to just report her to the White Tower instead.

 

Third, because of the very fact that there is a White Tower, rogue channelers tend to lay low. It doesn't matter how powerful you are, 13 Aes Sedai can take you down. In practice, probably much less Aes Sedai are needed for even the strongest female rogue channelers. Look at how much trouble even Nynaeve and Elayne had against a handful of Black Sisters. The only ways for channelers to gain protection from the White Tower is to either pass under their radar, or to raise a strong enough army. For the second option, see #2.

 

Fourth, because of the realities presented by #3, most channelers just try to live in peace. That's why female sparkers serve as village wisdoms, etc. As long as they don't use their power to oppress people (too much), the White Tower will leave them alone. Men of course, are a completely different matter. They are feared and reviled by their own community, and often hunted down before they even get a chance to go insane. This is a kind of natural selection, as only the most powerful and cunning male channelers manage to survive. Add to that a dollop of ambition, and you get a False Dragon.

This.False Dragons are not exactly your average male channelers , they are people who are successful at it and when the whole world is out to get you (all cultures have their ways with "dealing" with them),you tend to either become VERY good or become very dead.

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I'll just look as Rand as a super-powered sparker:

 

He called down lightning, healed a horse, and moved a boom. Not very impressive, maybe, but those were just his first three instances, and he already got a kill.

 

 

 

Now, consider how far he got with NO teaching: Ishamael dead, a forsaken trying to snatch the most powerful Sa'Angreal beaten, and used Callandor to kill shadowspawn. Along the way he manhandled two quite powerful Aes Sedai apprentices.

 

 

Does this mean many men can do this? Nope. But, considering Logain and Taim both were very close to Rand's power, we can imagine that the false dragons are the type who do call down lightning for kills, and who can handle one (or sometimes two) Aes Sedai alone. Add some skill and luck, and they might cause 3-6 deaths.

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Does this mean many men can do this? Nope. But, considering Logain and Taim both were very close to Rand's power, we can imagine that the false dragons are the type who do call down lightning for kills, and who can handle one (or sometimes two) Aes Sedai alone. Add some skill and luck, and they might cause 3-6 deaths.

 

Not to mention tactical sense. 13 AS are needed to 100% shield a man who is holding on to the power, so if Logain gets the jump on 6 AS, he might very well defeat them all before they even get a chance to link.

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I'll just look as Rand as a super-powered sparker:

 

He called down lightning, healed a horse, and moved a boom. Not very impressive, maybe, but those were just his first three instances, and he already got a kill.

 

 

 

Now, consider how far he got with NO teaching: Ishamael dead, a forsaken trying to snatch the most powerful Sa'Angreal beaten, and used Callandor to kill shadowspawn. Along the way he manhandled two quite powerful Aes Sedai apprentices.

 

 

Does this mean many men can do this? Nope. But, considering Logain and Taim both were very close to Rand's power, we can imagine that the false dragons are the type who do call down lightning for kills, and who can handle one (or sometimes two) Aes Sedai alone. Add some skill and luck, and they might cause 3-6 deaths.

 

Rand is different. When he sparked he was told that he was able to channel. So he had a reason to experiment and figure things out. Nynaeve was never told and ended up only doing it subconsciously. Rand's first couple weaves are a great example. Bela just kept running, not too strange, and the boat beam knocks the trolloc off the boat. Rand shrugged that off and said, "used up all my luck with that one!" If he wasn't told he could channel, would he have gained the understanding of what he was doing before Asmodeon actually started teaching him?

 

When I suggest someone might teach them. It doesn't have to be like Sith Lords. It could just be a Darkfriend finding a male channeler and telling him he's a channeler. That might be enough to get the guy to consciously experiment.

 

Or maybe the Reds found these guys before they were self aware. But they got away the first time... then knowing what they were, could learn to control it. That would be a rather innocent explanation.

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Not every wilder is blocked. Some realize what they are doing.

 

Moiraine seems to disagree with you. According to her quote in the first post. And if she was wrong, wouldnt' there be evil female wielders who would go around trying to use their channeling for nefarious purposes? Darkfriend and False Dragon are not the only troubles someone who realized they were powerful could get into.

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Here

 

 

Only one in four wilders survives her ability to channel without training. Almost all who do survive build up blocks that interfere with conscious control.

 

TGH,Ch12

Edited by UGAShadow

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I'm wondering if the false dragons might also hear voices. If I remember correctly, Rand learned a few new things from the voice of L.T.T. on at least one occasion. Might that also be the case with the false dragons?

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I'm wondering if the false dragons might also hear voices. If I remember correctly, Rand learned a few new things from the voice of L.T.T. on at least one occasion. Might that also be the case with the false dragons?

 

Well that depends. Is voice caused by insanity from the taint? Or is it caused by Rand being the DR? If it's the latter then there is no reason for false dragons to hear voices.

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When Rand uses the Portal Stone in "What Might Be" from The Great Hunt, he sees various versions of his life. In one of them he is not aware that he's able to channel, yet he still suffers the effect from the taint, the decay and the rage outbursts, no voice though. In the second life he knows he can channel, and uses it at times, and again the taint-induced rage is present but no voice or memories of being Lews Therin.

 

I'd assume most male sparkers just go unnoticed like Rand did in his first life vision, and some might actually realize that they can channel and learn to start using it. Judging from the huge amount of male channelers that suddenly show up at The Black Tower, there ought to be a small percentage of those capable of learning enough. You know what they say, if you put enough monkeys to write on a type writer, eventually one of them will write a Shakespeare novel.

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Here

 

 

Only one in four wilders survives her ability to channel without training. Almost all who do survive build up blocks that interfere with conscious control.

 

TGH,Ch12

 

This has nothing to do with blocks. Moir wasn't talking about blocks. The block was the way that Nynaeve survived. I realize that not all wielders have blocks. But that does not mean that their channeling is conscious. Moir obviously believes that it's not, or she, and the WT, would be worried about Wielders getting into trouble with their conscious skill.

 

Nor is it a fear that those women will misuse the power. The rough control of the power they may gain, if the light shines on them, is rarely enough to do any great damage, especially since the actual touching of the source is beyond their control without a teacher, and comes only randomly.

 

She says rarely enough to do any great damage. So that means they could do great damage. But the bold part is not qualified in any way. Seems to suggest wielders cannot embrace consciously like a trained Novice can. Does it not?

 

I'm wondering if the false dragons might also hear voices. If I remember correctly, Rand learned a few new things from the voice of L.T.T. on at least one occasion. Might that also be the case with the false dragons?

 

Well that depends. Is voice caused by insanity from the taint? Or is it caused by Rand being the DR? If it's the latter then there is no reason for false dragons to hear voices.

 

I knew I saw this somewhere... (from Luckers' Q&A Compilation)

 

13. Question: Was the taint influential in the creation/development/existence of the voice of Lews Therin in Rand's head?

 

13. Answer: Brandon answered that the taint was influential, but not the only factor. He referenced Semirhage, that of course we can't believe the Forsaken always, but yes, that the taint was an influence in the the voice. That we have to accept that in fact, in a way, Rand is going insane (as in as the books progress).

 

It is partly the taint, so one could assume other MCs might hear voices too (unless the rest of that partly is that you need to be the DR). Though it has been pointed out that if voices, or the breaking-down of the barrier between lives, is a very advanced form of the taint, Rand has channeled many orders of magnitude more of it (with both Callandor and the Choden Kal) than anyone else before it was cleansed.

 

So it does seem possible that the FDs heard voices to. Actually Cadsuane suggested that they most certainly did I believe... hrm?

Edited by Kael Pyralis

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Rand is not a model for male sparkers. The reason he channels with such facility without a teacher -- killing Ishamael, for example -- is because unlike all other individuals his past life is seeping through. He is not learning how to channel, he is remembering how to channel.

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Nor is it a fear that those women will misuse the power. The rough control of the power they may gain, if the light shines on them, is rarely enough to do any great damage, especially since the actual touching of the source is beyond their control without a teacher, and comes only randomly.

 

We know this is incorrect and that there are wilders who will learn conscious control. The first channelers didn't have teachers. The original Windfinders didn't have Aes Sedai teachers, otherwise they would have snatched them up. That would be the same for males and females.

 

I don't think that Logain was ever mentioned as having a teacher either, but I don't know for sure.

 

edit: Also the original Aeil that left into the Waste most likely didn't have teachers.

Edited by rcfleming4

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In Taim's case it's likely he may have been taught by a Forsaken, since he seems to be a Darkfriend. Possibly Demandred, since he echoed Dem's order to "let the lord of chaos rule".

 

It's also possible he was found by sisters of the Black Ajah, or that the rumors Red sisters encouraged the False Dragons to earn prestige in capturing them, were indeed true. Though this seems less likely since saidin/saidar are too different for a sister to have taught him much. I'm gonna go w/Demandred, he was probably the one to order Black sisers to free Taim so Taim could be a plant in the Black Tower.

 

As others have said, the male channelers who declare themselves the Dragon are all very high in strength, so they may have just taught themselves. They'd have to be strong mentally in the first place just to handle saidin at all so they're probably just more suited to channeling without burning out/dying. I also agree with the idea that they may have been in a position to have learned the flame/void trick Tam taught Rand which is an initial step to channel. Could be that's how they learned they could in the first place.

Edited by Nightangel486

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Nor is it a fear that those women will misuse the power. The rough control of the power they may gain, if the light shines on them, is rarely enough to do any great damage, especially since the actual touching of the source is beyond their control without a teacher, and comes only randomly.
We know this is incorrect and that there are wilders who will learn conscious control. The first channelers didn't have teachers. The original Windfinders didn't have Aes Sedai teachers, otherwise they would have snatched them up. That would be the same for males and females.

 

There were no first channelers. There are no beginnings or endings to the wheel of time. Bwahaha ;)

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In Taim's case it's likely he may have been taught by a Forsaken, since he seems to be a Darkfriend. Possibly Demandred, since he echoed Dem's order to "let the lord of chaos rule".

 

It's also possible he was found by sisters of the Black Ajah, or that the rumors Red sisters encouraged the False Dragons to earn prestige in capturing them, were indeed true. Though this seems less likely since saidin/saidar are too different for a sister to have taught him much. I'm gonna go w/Demandred, he was probably the one to order Black sisers to free Taim so Taim could be a plant in the Black Tower.

 

As others have said, the male channelers who declare themselves the Dragon are all very high in strength, so they may have just taught themselves. They'd have to be strong mentally in the first place just to handle saidin at all so they're probably just more suited to channeling without burning out/dying. I also agree with the idea that they may have been in a position to have learned the flame/void trick Tam taught Rand which is an initial step to channel. Could be that's how they learned they could in the first place.

 

Taim learned how to channel and became a false dragon prior to Demandred being released from the bore. Taim must've either taught himself or had Ishy as a teacher(if he was loose at the time).

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