Am i the only one who thinks that Nynaeve is plain rubbish?

[Hopefire]

Suttree did you Ever actually Read the Egwene POV because I'm really not making that up.

 

Quotes?

 

I never took that away from her pov. She needed to make sure those she grew up with acknowledged her new station. Nowhere does it even remotely hint that she bullies others for her enjoyment.

Off the top of my head, in the chapter What Can Be Learned In Dreams in The Fires of Heaven, Egwene outright giggles after bullying Nynaeve.

 

More to the point, Egwene isn't twirling a mustache and laughing when she bullies someone, obviously. But I think that there's a fair amount of evidence throughout the series that she finds no small amount of satisfaction in being in control. As a result, that satisfaction comes through when she does bully someone into something. For example, at the end of A Morning of Victory in A Crown of Swords, where she expresses her anticipation of bringing Sheriam to heel. Egwene's POV's term, not mine; "to heel." Egwene's problems with Gawyn in TOM essentially boil down to her inability to accept that Gawyn sometimes thought he might sometimes know better than her, was disagreeing with her privately, and the lack of information on his part was leading to him inadvertently foiling her plans.

 

Nynaeve is also a serial bully, though her bullying is generally pitched as comedic, like how on the road she keeps yelling at Thom to speed up or slow down.

[Demon_AS]

I have to say, I didn't like Nynaeve at all the first time I read the series. But by the fifth you sort of realise that she's a strong, wilful woman and that can sometimes be annoying, but everything she's ever done has always been out of a sense of responsibility for our Emond's Field heroes. That and healing Stilling/Gentling, removing Compulsion and Healing madness... not to mention being one half of the reason that saidin was Cleansed...

 

Well, she's come a long way in my eyes.

[Suttree]

TFOH, Ch.15

 

What had happened with Nynaeve still amazed her. I think she’d actually have drunk, if I had pressed her. She had been so afraid that Nynaeve would learn that she certainly did not have the Wise Ones’ permission to jaunt about in the World of Dreams alone, so sure that the flush of embarrassment had given her away, that all she could think of was keeping Nynaeve from speaking, keeping her from winkling out the truth. And she had been so sure that Nynaeve would find out anyway — the woman was quite capable of turning her in and saying it was for her own good — that all she could do was talk, try to keep the focus on whatever Nynaeve was doing wrong. No matter how angry Nynaeve made her, she could not seem to bring up a shout. And with all of that, somehow, she had gained the upper hand.

 

Come to think of it, Moiraine seldom raised her voice, and when she did she was least effective in having what she wanted done. It had been so even before she began behaving so strangely with Rand. The Wise Ones never yelled at anyone, either — except each other, sometimes — and for all their grumping about the chiefs no longer listening, they still seemed to get their way much more often than not. There was an old saying that she had never really understood before: “He strains to hear a whisper who refuses to hear a shout.” She would not shout at Rand again. A quiet, firm, womanly voice, that was the thing. For that matter, she ought not to shout at Nynaeve, either; she was a woman, not a girl throwing tantrums.

 

She found herself giggling. She especially ought not to raise her voice with Nynaeve when speaking calmly produced such results.

 

It certainly seems Egwene enjoyed a lot browbeating Nynaeve and summoning those brutes to scare her out of her mind. I wouldn't say that was her main reason (it was to cover her lie to the WO), but it was certainly there.

 

Thanks for the quote, it definitely shows how far off base DemandredFO is in his assessment. In relation to summoning the thugs it was purely to show her how dangerous Tel'aran'rhiod for those not properly trained. Nowhere in the passage does she show enjoyment or even satisfaction at this. As for the threat of the bad tasting drink it is a simple coming of age moment. She expresses surprise that it actually worked and remarks on her new found abilities to deal with Nynaeve on equal footing. I don't believe anyone wouldn't have similar thoughts in that situation with such a great role reversal.

 

What is clear is she doesn't take great pleasure from the act of bullying itself. She isn't motivated by it nor is it the reason for that passage. A far cry from being a

 

"bully especially to Nyneave because it gives her pleasure, and for no other reason."

[randsc]

DemandredFO was employing a bit of hyperbole, certainly.

 

However, you are employing more than a bit of rationalization and willful blindness.

 

For example, this:

 

In relation to summoning the thugs it was purely to show her how dangerous Tel'aran'rhiod for those not properly trained.

 

Is absolutely untrue. Her motivations are crystal clear, from her own thoughts:

 

She had been so afraid that Nynaeve would learn that she certainly did not have the Wise Ones’ permission to jaunt about in the World of Dreams alone, so sure that the flush of embarrassment had given her away, that all she could think of was keeping Nynaeve from speaking, keeping her from winkling out the truth.

 

That's her motivation. Was she motivated by a love of bullying? No, though she certainly enjoyed it in this instance. But neither was it "purely" (or even, "at all") to show Nynaeve how dangerous TaR is. Her motivations are made explicitly clear, and since they are her own thoughts, they're really not subject to much in the way of interpretation. She was covering up for the fact that she herself was doing something she shouldn't. Period.

 

 

Nowhere in the passage does she show enjoyment or even satisfaction at this.

 

The quote has already been bolded for you. "Giggling" is certainly a sign of pleasure where I come from.

 

People go on and on about "Egwene-haters", but a lot of the hatred is not of Egwene. It is of the constant rationalizations and excusing of her bad conduct, both in-world and in fandom.

 

I understand your frustration with some of the over-the top-stuff, but I really think you're pretty far off base on this one yourself.

[Suttree]

DemandredFO was employing a bit of hyperbole, certainly.

 

However, you are employing more than a bit of rationalization and willful blindness.

 

For example, this:

 

In relation to summoning the thugs it was purely to show her how dangerous Tel'aran'rhiod for those not properly trained.

 

Is absolutely untrue. Her motivations are crystal clear, from her own thoughts:

 

She had been so afraid that Nynaeve would learn that she certainly did not have the Wise Ones’ permission to jaunt about in the World of Dreams alone, so sure that the flush of embarrassment had given her away, that all she could think of was keeping Nynaeve from speaking, keeping her from winkling out the truth.

 

That's her motivation. Was she motivated by a love of bullying? No, though she certainly enjoyed it in this instance. But neither was it "purely" (or even, "at all") to show Nynaeve how dangerous TaR is. Her motivations are made explicitly clear, and since they are her own thoughts, they're really not subject to much in the way of interpretation. She was covering up for the fact that she herself was doing something she shouldn't. Period.

 

 

Nowhere in the passage does she show enjoyment or even satisfaction at this.

 

The quote has already been bolded for you. "Giggling" is certainly a sign of pleasure where I come from.

 

People go on and on about "Egwene-haters", but a lot of the hatred is not of Egwene. It is of the constant rationalizations and excusing of her bad conduct, both in-world and in fandom.

 

As far as I could tell he wasn't purposely employing hyperbole. In fact he stuck by his original claim one hundred percent when questioned about it.

 

The summoning of the thugs most certainly falls under "at all" in showing her how dangerous it was.

 

tFOH ch 15

 

...keep the focus on whatever Nynaeve was doing wrong.

 

Egwene was far more trained in the World of Dreams, yes she was covering up but wanted to get across a valid point at the same time. Her thoughts above show she is very clear on Nynaeve acting rashly.

 

 

In terms of the giggling I addressed that in my post

 

tFOH Ch 15

She found herself giggling. She especially ought not to raise her voice with Nynaeve when speaking calmly produced such great results.

 

She isn't giggling because she enjoyed summoning the thugs, or being a bully. She is amazed at the role reversal from Nyaneve being the village wisdom to their new found equal footing and that she didn't have to raise her voice to make her point. The whole last paragraph where the "giggling" is mentioned is all to do with Moraine and the Wise Ones not having to raise their voice in dealings with others. She can't believe she was able to do the same. You have taken it completely out of context and applied it to a different part the chapter entirely.

[Stitch]

She was better in the first couple books... she went SHARPLY downhill after Egwene mind fsked her in TAR (dont get me started on her bad qualities), she started to lose all her confidence, her purpose and everything else - for Egwene it was something to boost her confidence and force someone to do as she wished, that she gives other reasons is merely a result of her justifications and excuses; the truth is she wanted Nyn to do (and not do) things and instead of reasoning she decided to use force.

 

Up until that point, Nyn was confident and able to take independent action - true she took unnecessary risks, but she did so in order to do what she thought was right in protecting 'her own', afterwards she becomes traumatized whenever she considers Egwene - who was basically beating the snot out of a child (not an admonishing slap, which could have easily been done, but rather full on wailing on her) in TAR terms.

[NetSlider]

I used to hate her to no end but starting around KoD I have to say I begun to like her more and more and by ToM I def like her the best out of the three. She def grown as a character a LOT and I think we are seeing one of the greatest AS in the making that will be remembered for ages (and I mean like for AGES).

[David Selig]

TFOH, Ch. 24

 

It was too bad about Siuan; they needed a firm hand to settle them down. Odd that she should think of Nynaeve so; Nynaeve had always been the one with the firm hand. But since that episode in the Tower of Tel’aran’rhiod, Nynaeve had become less and less someone she had to struggle against.

 

Guiltily, she realized as she turned a page that she was looking forward to seeing Nynaeve tonight. Not because Nynaeve was a friend, but because she wanted to see if the effects had lingered.

 

We see here that before the next planned meeting in TAR with Nynaeve after the incident with the vile tasting drink and the two summoned thugs, Egwene was really looking forward to see whether her bullying has had a long term effect. She was certainly enjoying her newly found upper hand against Nynaeve.

 

When Elayne showed up for the meeting instead, Egwene was disappointed, but still made sure to try to bully Nynaeve by proxy.

TFOH, Ch. 25

 

So it was holding, whatever it was that had happened between them. Either that, or Nynaeve was storing up her anger for the next time they met. She was not going to put up with the woman’s temper anymore, not now that she knew she did not have to. “You tell her from me that she is too old to be rolling about on the ground fighting. If she gets into another, I’ll have worse to say to her. You tell her that exactly. It will be worse.” Let Nynaeve chew on that until next time. Either she would be mild as a lamb . . . Or else Egwene would just have to carry through on her threat. Nynaeve might be stronger in the Power, when she could channel, but here, Egwene was. One way or another, she was finished with Nynaeve’s tantrums.

 

Here Egwene is clearly bullying Nynaeve just for pleasure and for making herself feel superior. By this point she has no formal authority over Nynaeve and these kinds of threats are a terrible way to treat a friend.

[Guest PiotrekS]

 

Thanks for the quote, it definitely shows how far off base DemandredFO is in his assessment. In relation to summoning the thugs it was purely to show her how dangerous Tel'aran'rhiod for those not properly trained. Nowhere in the passage does she show enjoyment or even satisfaction at this. As for the threat of the bad tasting drink it is a simple coming of age moment. She expresses surprise that it actually worked and remarks on her new found abilities to deal with Nynaeve on equal footing. I don't believe anyone wouldn't have similar thoughts in that situation with such a great role reversal.

 

 

You must be kidding, right? I can't fathom how you can call it "equal footing". Egwene wasn't going to make Nynaeve treat her like a grown and equally capable person. She wanted to totally dominate her, as the quotes unequivocally show. Egwene went for Nynaeve's weaknesses and cynically manipulated her emotions.

 

Come to think of it, Moiraine seldom raised her voice, and when she did she was least effective in having what she wanted done. It had been so even before she began behaving so strangely with Rand. The Wise Ones never yelled at anyone, either — except each other, sometimes — and for all their grumping about the chiefs no longer listening, they still seemed to get their way much more often than not.

 

You seem to harbor some sentimental illusions as to Egwene's motivation in this scene. There were undoubtedly "coming of age" moments in her arc (and a little teenage rebellion), but this was not one of them. Instead, it was a harbinger of manipulative, "get-all-I-want", "treating-her-friends-as-tools" Egwene the master politician. If I recall correctly, Egwene had already - at this point in the story - repeatedly communicated to Nynaeve that she was no longer her apprentice nor a child. All that came after was instead a school of manipulation, whose goal was not to "make other people respect and accept her as an equal", but rather to dominate and manipulate them to get what she wanted.

 

You're right when you argue against "over-the-top" critique of Egwene (e.g. calling her "evil"). But in this case you'fighting a lost battle -your points totally disregard the quotes.

[Justanotherfacet]

It's interesting to read how somebody on this forum will expose a quote to everyone, then pick a small section which proves their point and then will belligerently defend this belief.

Even though another part in the exact same quote - which they have so kindly provided to us rejects their claim.

 

To be honest, i dont think some of us would do very well as Aes Sedai hahaha

 

For example....

 

 

TFOH, Ch. 24

 

It was too bad about Siuan; they needed a firm hand to settle them down. Odd that she should think of Nynaeve so; Nynaeve had always been the one with the firm hand. But since that episode in the Tower of Tel’aran’rhiod, Nynaeve had become less and less someone she had to struggle against.

 

Guiltily, she realized as she turned a page that she was looking forward to seeing Nynaeve tonight. Not because Nynaeve was a friend, but because she wanted to see if the effects had lingered.

 

We see here that before the next planned meeting in TAR with Nynaeve after the incident with the vile tasting drink and the two summoned thugs, Egwene was really looking forward to see whether her bullying has had a long term effect. She was certainly enjoying her newly found upper hand against Nynaeve.

 

When Elayne showed up for the meeting instead, Egwene was disappointed, but still made sure to try to bully Nynaeve by proxy.

TFOH, Ch. 25

 

So it was holding, whatever it was that had happened between them. Either that, or Nynaeve was storing up her anger for the next time they met. She was not going to put up with the woman’s temper anymore, not now that she knew she did not have to. “You tell her from me that she is too old to be rolling about on the ground fighting. If she gets into another, I’ll have worse to say to her. You tell her that exactly. It will be worse.” Let Nynaeve chew on that until next time. Either she would be mild as a lamb . . . Or else Egwene would just have to carry through on her threat. Nynaeve might be stronger in the Power, when she could channel, but here, Egwene was. One way or another, she was finished with Nynaeve’s tantrums.

 

Here Egwene is clearly bullying Nynaeve just for pleasure and for making herself feel superior. By this point she has no formal authority over Nynaeve and these kinds of threats are a terrible way to treat a friend.

 

 

First of all, "Guiltily she realized" I believe that this indicates that she recognizes that her motives are unbecoming of a young adult, but the fact that she is capable of recognizing the problem and associates it with a negative emotion shows strength of character and knowledge that this si something she must improve on. Egwene and the rest of the Country Kids are still very young after all.

 

Nynaeve however has frequently shown (or has been described to have shown) satisfaction when she successfully browbeated one of her friends - Prior to this point she has had a responsibility over her friends, She was Wisdom and they were children, Did she not have the responsibility of beating/punishing them back in their village? That is practically a Parent/Progeny relationship.

 

The confrontation in TAR was an expression of Egwene's refusal to submit blindly to Nynaeve's authority.

"She was not going to put up with the woman’s temper anymore" , "One way or another, she was finished with Nynaeve’s tantrums." Egwene believes her opinions are just as valid as Nynaeve's and I believe it shows great maturity and poise to stand against someone you have been intimidated by your entire life.

Another example of this happening is Aviendha's claim to be equal to a wise one and her subsequent acceptance into their ranks.

 

This is also a good lesson for Nynaeve - as indicated by primarily Moiraine but also all other "stong" female leaders such as Sorilea or Cadsuane - although temper and shouting may work against lessers, amongst equals it is unacceptable and though scorn at an idea is permitted, disrespect to an equal is repeatedly shown to be counterproductive - A point Cadsuane has now taught her.

After all Egwene needs to work with Nynaeve, not against. Is it not a good thing that "Nynaeve had become less and less someone she had to struggle against?"

 

"By this point she has no formal authority over Nynaeve" Authority? No. However she does have a responsibility as a friend to teach her that her behavior to an equal is becoming unacceptable and also to teach her a more effective way of communicating.

 

"Here Egwene is clearly bullying Nynaeve just for pleasure and for making herself feel superior." Read the quote you have provided carefully and you may realize that your Clear Cut Fact is in fact an opinion - One which isn't wrong and cant be wrong, because though facts may be right or wrong, an opinion is neither.

 

Sorry for singling you out, but it was the most recent example of this self destructive phenomena I read on here. =D

[CrossArmant]

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that Egwene relished sending the thugs after Nynaeve. Be honest with yourself, if you were Egwene would you not take pleasure in taking Nynaeve down a peg? I mean, Nynaeve has paddled, insulted, browbeat, bullied, insulted, and badgered every last one of the Emond's Field gang for years and years. If I were Egwene and finally got a chance to show Nynaeve up, teach her a lesson in humility, and shut her the eff up... you betcha I'd be relishing and giggling in delight.

 

You guys tend to forget, that despite any of her accomplishments that she is still a stubborn country bumpkin with anger management issues. What I find staggering is how everyone refers to the rest of the Emond's Fielders as "friends" when it's pretty much clear from the moment she shows up in Baerlon that they really have never liked her, nonetheless counted her as a legitimate "friend". The only definition of "friend" that fits her is simply "Someone who is not hostile". She's the grumpy older sister type who is completely delusional about her own short comings and it seems that everyone just endures her. Again regardless of accomplishments or leadership abilities, she's a completely insufferable person to be around.

[David Selig]

First of all, "Guiltily she realized" I believe that this indicates that she recognizes that her motives are unbecoming of a young adult, but the fact that she is capable of recognizing the problem and associates it with a negative emotion shows strength of character and knowledge that this si something she must improve on. Egwene and the rest of the Country Kids are still very young after all.

Nice spin, but doesn't disprove what I wrote in any way.

 

The confrontation in TAR was an expression of Egwene's refusal to submit blindly to Nynaeve's authority.

"She was not going to put up with the woman’s temper anymore" , "One way or another, she was finished with Nynaeve’s tantrums." Egwene believes her opinions are just as valid as Nynaeve's and I believe it shows great maturity and poise to stand against someone you have been intimidated by your entire life.

Partly, yes. But mostly it was an abuse of a friend to cover a lie. I have no problems with Egwene standing up to Nynaeve, but there's a huge gap between standing up for yourself and summoning thugs to tear off your friend's clothes and almost forcing her to drink a vile concoction so you can feel superior to her. And my point was that she enjoyed browbeating Nynaeve and was looking forward to do it again and see how much of it still held.

 

This is also a good lesson for Nynaeve - as indicated by primarily Moiraine but also all other "stong" female leaders such as Sorilea or Cadsuane - although temper and shouting may work against lessers, amongst equals it is unacceptable and though scorn at an idea is permitted, disrespect to an equal is repeatedly shown to be counterproductive - A point Cadsuane has now taught her.

Are we talking about the same Cadsuane who kept calling the most powerful man in the world "boy", talked to him as if he was an 10 year old and slapped him numerous times? Yeah, she sure is a great example at showing proper respect...

 

"By this point she has no formal authority over Nynaeve" Authority? No. However she does have a responsibility as a friend to teach her that her behavior to an equal is becoming unacceptable and also to teach her a more effective way of communicating.

And the proper way to do that was to become much more bossy and rude than Nynaeve ever was? Besides, Nynaeve was already slowly getting around to treat Egwene as an equal ever since TDR and certainly didn't deserve such a brutal "lesson". She had treated Egwene as an equal in TSR in until the TAR confrontation in TFOH. But Egwene wasn't satisfied with that, she wanted to be on top, so she browbeat and abused Nynaeve to force her to accept her as the dominant one in their relationship. Look how gives orders and threaten Nynaeve here through proxy, confident that she now has the upper hand and enjoying it.

 

Let's not forget that Egwene caught Nynaeve telling a minor lie (about the forkroot) and used Nynaeve's guilt to browbeat her into submission. But Egwene did all this mostly to cover her own lie to the WO and this blatant hypocrisy didn't bother her at all.

[MasterAblar]

That the place where Egwene stood up to Nyneave is TAR, which is the one place where Egwene is stronger than Nyneave and capable of dominating her, is telling in my opinion. It may be only a detail, but I wonder if egwene would have stood up to Nyneave in the real world.

[Smittyphi]

Healing stilling and breaking her block were the main jumps in my appreciation. She definitely annoyed me the first 5 or so books with her beating Moggy as a welcome break.

[Suttree]

And the proper way to do that was to become much more bossy and rude than Nynaeve ever was?

 

HAHA here we go. As everyone on DM can attest, we could provide pages and pages of quotes showing Nynaeve being far more bossy and rude. There is not even a contest on this one.

 

As other posters have shown, the main issue in this passage had nothing to do with the bullying. It's about a balance of power and recognizing new found equal footing. You seem to forget that her "abuse" of a friend had to do with showing how dangerous Tar is. To provide a lesson that would force Nyaneve to recognize her shortcomings in that world. Yes she was also covering up a lie but in no way at all was it to feel superior to her. Later we have her own thought process on how they were now equals.

 

tFOH

"She was not going to put up with the woman’s temper anymore" , "One way or another, she was finished with Nynaeve’s tantrums."

 

Nowhere in the quote you provided does it show her "enjoying" being able to give Nynaeve orders fro the sake of some power trip or being a bully. In fact the end of the quote above, clearly shows she is now standing up to her as an equal. I don't think there is anyone who wouldn't feel satisfaction at that given their history together. All in all the worst part about this section is covering up the lie. It shows how rabid the feelings are against her that this could turn into people claiming she takes "sadistic pleasure", "abused friends", and "bullyed Nynaeve because it gives her pleasure and for no other reason".

[Zentari]

And the proper way to do that was to become much more bossy and rude than Nynaeve ever was?

 

HAHA here we go. As everyone on DM can attest, we could provide pages and pages of quotes showing Nynaeve being far more bossy and rude. There is not even a contest on this one.

 

As other posters have shown, the main issue in this passage had nothing to do with the bullying. It's about a balance of power and recognizing new found equal footing. You seem to forget that her "abuse" of a friend had to do with showing how dangerous Tar. Yes she was also covering up a lie but in no way at all was it to feel superior to her. We have her own thought process on how they were now equals.

 

tFOH

"She was not going to put up with the woman’s temper anymore" , "One way or another, she was finished with Nynaeve’s tantrums."

 

Nowhere in the quote you provided does it show her "enjoying" being able to give Nynaeve orders. In fact the end of that quote, shown above clearly shows she is now standing up to her as an equal. All in all the worst part about this section is covering up the lie. It shows how rabid the feelings are against her that this could turn into people claiming she takes "sadistic pleasure", "abused friends", and "bullyed Nynaeve because it gives her pleasure and for no other reason".

First of all , way for missing the point. I like how you point out her responsibility as a friend to teach her and then shoving the atrocious behavior under the rug by saying "well,she's done it too!" as if that somehow changes anything.One could also point out that just like friends have this obligation, they don't go at it like complete ****** and don't enjoy the experience.Unless of course, we are not talking about real friends at all , in which case , they wouldn't have the obligation in the first place.

 

For the second, besides the smirking and the eagerness to put her in her place ,as well as repeat the whole thing again you mean ?

[Suttree]

And the proper way to do that was to become much more bossy and rude than Nynaeve ever was?

 

HAHA here we go. As everyone on DM can attest, we could provide pages and pages of quotes showing Nynaeve being far more bossy and rude. There is not even a contest on this one.

 

As other posters have shown, the main issue in this passage had nothing to do with the bullying. It's about a balance of power and recognizing new found equal footing. You seem to forget that her "abuse" of a friend had to do with showing how dangerous Tar. Yes she was also covering up a lie but in no way at all was it to feel superior to her. We have her own thought process on how they were now equals.

 

tFOH

"She was not going to put up with the woman’s temper anymore" , "One way or another, she was finished with Nynaeve’s tantrums."

 

Nowhere in the quote you provided does it show her "enjoying" being able to give Nynaeve orders. In fact the end of that quote, shown above clearly shows she is now standing up to her as an equal. All in all the worst part about this section is covering up the lie. It shows how rabid the feelings are against her that this could turn into people claiming she takes "sadistic pleasure", "abused friends", and "bullyed Nynaeve because it gives her pleasure and for no other reason".

First of all , way for missing the point. I like how you point out her responsibility as a friend to teach her and then shoving the atrocious behavior under the rug by saying "well,she's done it too!" as if that somehow changes anything.One could also point out that just like friends have this obligation, they don't go at it like complete ****** and don't enjoy the experience.Unless of course, we are not talking about real friends at all , in which case , they wouldn't have the obligation in the first place.

 

For the second, besides the smirking and the eagerness to put her in her place ,as well as repeat the whole thing again you mean ?

 

Sorry guess I missed another one, what exactly are you trying to say?

 

So you are on record with the couple of other posters who believe the only point to this passage is to show Egwene being a bully and taking pleasure in the act? Nothing else going on here eh?

 

tFOH

She was not going to put up with the woman’s temper anymore, not now that she knew she did not have to. “You tell her from me that she is too old to be rolling about on the ground fighting. If she gets into another, I’ll have worse to say to her. You tell her that exactly. It will be worse.” Let Nynaeve chew on that until next time. Either she would be mild as a lamb . . . Or else Egwene would just have to carry through on her threat. Nynaeve might be stronger in the Power, when she could channel, but here, Egwene was. One way or another, she was finished with Nynaeve’s tantrums.

 

So would you kindly show me the smirking and eagerness to be a bully? It clearly states in two places this is about redressing a previous balance of power now that they are both adults. The whole thing has to do with coming of age.

[Zentari]

And the proper way to do that was to become much more bossy and rude than Nynaeve ever was?

 

HAHA here we go. As everyone on DM can attest, we could provide pages and pages of quotes showing Nynaeve being far more bossy and rude. There is not even a contest on this one.

 

As other posters have shown, the main issue in this passage had nothing to do with the bullying. It's about a balance of power and recognizing new found equal footing. You seem to forget that her "abuse" of a friend had to do with showing how dangerous Tar. Yes she was also covering up a lie but in no way at all was it to feel superior to her. We have her own thought process on how they were now equals.

 

tFOH

"She was not going to put up with the woman’s temper anymore" , "One way or another, she was finished with Nynaeve’s tantrums."

 

Nowhere in the quote you provided does it show her "enjoying" being able to give Nynaeve orders. In fact the end of that quote, shown above clearly shows she is now standing up to her as an equal. All in all the worst part about this section is covering up the lie. It shows how rabid the feelings are against her that this could turn into people claiming she takes "sadistic pleasure", "abused friends", and "bullyed Nynaeve because it gives her pleasure and for no other reason".

First of all , way for missing the point. I like how you point out her responsibility as a friend to teach her and then shoving the atrocious behavior under the rug by saying "well,she's done it too!" as if that somehow changes anything.One could also point out that just like friends have this obligation, they don't go at it like complete ****** and don't enjoy the experience.Unless of course, we are not talking about real friends at all , in which case , they wouldn't have the obligation in the first place.

 

For the second, besides the smirking and the eagerness to put her in her place ,as well as repeat the whole thing again you mean ?

 

Sorry guess I missed another one, what exactly are you trying to say?

 

So you are on record with the couple of other posters who believe the only point to this passage is to show Egwene being a bully and taking pleasure in the act? Nothing else going on here eh?

 

tFOH

She was not going to put up with the woman’s temper anymore, not now that she knew she did not have to. “You tell her from me that she is too old to be rolling about on the ground fighting. If she gets into another, I’ll have worse to say to her. You tell her that exactly. It will be worse.” Let Nynaeve chew on that until next time. Either she would be mild as a lamb . . . Or else Egwene would just have to carry through on her threat. Nynaeve might be stronger in the Power, when she could channel, but here, Egwene was. One way or another, she was finished with Nynaeve’s tantrums.

 

So would you kindly show me the smirking and eagerness to be a bully? It clearly states in two places this is about redressing a previous balance of power now that they are both adults. The whole thing has to do with coming of age.

I'm saying that you use their friendship as a basis for those actions while disregarding all the others that contradict that base.To sum it up: either Eg wanted to help as a friend in which case her actions contradict that or she didn't want to help in which case she has no excuse for her actions what-so-ever.There's no third option to pick as far as saying "as a friend".The excuse is ludicrous , just like the previous one of "she did it too".

 

No, I'm not on that record.I'm ON the recond of her enjoying pushing nyn while doing so, no matter what reasons.When said reasons also happen to be self-serving , like the ones she summoned the brutes for in Tel'aran'rhiod, it makes the whole thing utterly detestable .

 

Right,sorry about that, I mean the giggling.

 

The whole thing has to do with the coming of age ? Instead of someone finding herself on top and clearly enjoying the experience ? Let's go with that, if only for the sake of the argument.How does that justify ANY of her actions ?

[randsc]

As other posters have shown, the main issue in this passage had nothing to do with the bullying. It's about a balance of power and recognizing new found equal footing. You seem to forget that her "abuse" of a friend had to do with showing how dangerous Tar is. To provide a lesson that would force Nyaneve to recognize her shortcomings in that world. Yes she was also covering up a lie but in no way at all was it to feel superior to her. Later we have her own thought process on how they were now equals.

 

C'mon, man, you're going beyond reaching, now.

 

We know for a fact that that in Egwene's view, the "teaching" was at most a fortunate side effect of her cover-up. You're casting the concealing of the lie as the happy side-effect, when the text is explicitly clear that Egwene was primarily concerned with covering up her lie.

 

I also don't think the scare quotes around "abuse" are appropriate. Surely you don't dispute that the conduct was abusive? Even if Egwene's motives were pure as snow (which they are not) the methods she employed are deplorable.

 

While I realize it is in somewhat bad taste to quote oneself, I think that this post I wrote on an eariler thread is still valid, and hasn't really even been challenged.

So my daughter insists on walking home through a bad part of town, just because she is curious. I am naturally concerned for her safety. So I have a couple of my friends waylay her on her way home, drag her into an alley, and rip her clothes. As a consequence, she learns her lesson, and never again walks home through the bad part of town.

 

Am I a good father?

 

Taking it one step further:

 

My daughter insists on walking home through a bad part of town, just because she is curious. I don't want her walking through that part of town, because the piece I am getting on the side lives there, and I am afraid my daughter will see me and tell my wife. So I have a couple of my friends waylay my daughter on her way home, drag her into an alley, and rip her clothes. As a consequence, she learns her lesson, and never again walks home through the bad part of town, plus my secret is safe from my wife.

 

Am I a good father?

 

Seriously, Egwene's actions toward Nynaeve were inexcusable. I don't see how anyone can reasonably argue otherwise.

[sleepinghour]

What I find staggering is how everyone refers to the rest of the Emond's Fielders as "friends" when it's pretty much clear from the moment she shows up in Baerlon that they really have never liked her, nonetheless counted her as a legitimate "friend". The only definition of "friend" that fits her is simply "Someone who is not hostile".

What I find staggering is that some people feel the need to defend every single thing their favorite characters do, no matter how bad it is. This debate quickly went downhill from "Egwene certainly didn't enjoy acting like a bully" to "Yeah, well, Nynaeve DESERVED it." All characters in the series have done things they deserve to be criticized for; acknowledging their faults and bad conduct doesn't make you less of a fan.

 

In Baerlon, Nynaeve shows up and (quite rightly, IMO) berates the Emond's Fielders for running off with a complete stranger without permission from their parents. Afterwards, Nynaeve comforts Rand when he's upset about Tam, refuses to abandon the group despite being chased by Trollocs, sneaks into a Whitecloak camp at great personal risk to save Perrin and Egwene, cares for their wounds afterwards, expresses worry about Perrin's yellow eyes, offers to treat Mat's illness despite it being contagious, is so relieved when Moiraine manages to Heal Mat that she actually cries... Indeed, it's hard to understand why they would even consider a horrible person like that a friend. She also used to babysit Egwene and was training her to become a Wisdom. Yes, she was and is often overbearing...but certainly deserves being called their friend. Rand even includes her in his list of people most important to him in ToM (three guesses as to who wasn't included).

[Elan Tedronai]

to call nynaeve rubbish is wrong. She has her own achievements and there's no need to put her down the way egwene haters do to egwene just to score a few points. She did need a talking to when she was ignoring egwene's orders and disrespecting egwene but her heart is in the right place

[Zhipp]

to call nynaeve rubbish is wrong. She has her own achievements and there's no need to put her down the way egwene haters do to egwene just to score a few points. She did need a talking to when she was ignoring egwene's orders and disrespecting egwene but her heart is in the right place

...Wow, I was beginning to think it wasn't possible to love Egwene and not hate Nyneave, but you just gave that theory a swift death.

 

Yes, I like Nyneave, she's by far my favorite female character in this series. I find if funny how some people can say she hasn't accomplished much. Sure, she's no politician. She's a nobody, but she's had an crucial part in some of the most important discoveries/events in the series. and that's part of why I like her. That, and she's just the best person in the series. Ha!

I hate Egwene too, partially because her actions in FoH resulted in Nyneave's character becoming a complete wreck for the next million pages. She became weak, emotionally unstable, and self-deprecating.. While her stubbornness was amusing before, it just seemed pathetic during those books. Practically everything I liked about her character was killed, she was even less compassionate than before!. It took Brandon Sanderson to make her Jordan-damned character right again. Yes, I do give him credit for her positive development, prove me wrong.

 

Just look at the comments here, most of the hate she's getting is based on things she did after Egwene completely screwed her over in book 5. I blame Lan too.

[capuga]

Just look at the comments here, most of the hate she's getting is based on things she did after Egwene completely screwed her over in book 5. I blame Lan too.

 

Why? I think that Nynaeve's growth and maturation began once she married Lan. He is a positive influence on her and the sense of security that she has now that her love life is settled as been very good for her. She is almost immediately much less overbearing, whiney, and rudely pushy once she married Lan.

[Smittyphi]

...Wow, I was beginning to think it wasn't possible to love Egwene and not hate Nyneave, but you just gave that theory a swift death.

I really like both of them. Both have had their "brain dead" moments but who doesn't? I still appreciate both for what good they have doon

 

Just look at the comments here, most of the hate she's getting is based on things she did after Egwene completely screwed her over in book 5. I blame Lan too.

 

Why? I think that Nynaeve's growth and maturation began once she married Lan. He is a positive influence on her and the sense of security that she has now that her love life is settled as been very good for her. She is almost immediately much less overbearing, whiney, and rudely pushy once she married Lan.

 

+1. I think the Atha'an Miere marraige had something to do with it.

[Himiko]

On a slightly off topic note, I've always thought that the wedding vows could get a little confusing- I mean, at the moment, you have Nynaeve as an AS and Lan as a Warder, so she is "in charge in public", meaning he is "in charge in private". However, should, in the aftermath of the Last Battle, Malkier be restored, Lan will, presuming he survives, be the rightful king, and thus the "ultimate authority", so who commands in public (and thus not in private) then? Nynaeve, because she is the AS and he the Warder? Or Lan, because he is the ruler of the nation? Maybe they'll just have to keep switching :P

 

On the subject of Egwene vs. Nynaeve, I don't think its entirely impossible to like them both, we've seen posters on here, and in other places, that do. Both have made achievements in their vastly differing fields- Egwene as a politician, Nynaeve as a much more "hands on" healer, etc. And both have their negative personality traits. I really don't see how its debatable that both have flaws, especially when it is written plainly in the text.

 

- In TFoH, written from EGWENE'S OWN POINT OF VIEW, she admits that the reason she berated Nynaeve was because she was worried that it would get back to the Wise Ones that she was breaking the rules. She was putting herself at risk, as it was, being only an apprentice, and much less well versed in the ways of TAR that the Wise Ones. She scolded Nynaeve, brutally, and summoned brutes to rip off her clothes etc. because she didn't want to be found out. The passage does not say "Egwene was glad that she had communicated the dangers of TAR to Nynaeve, though it had been brutal- it was an important lesson to learn. It seemed that her secret had also been forgotten, which she was glad of." It is very, very clear, she does this because she doesn't want to be found out.

 

Once again, I agree Nynaeve has her bad points, too. There is no debating that she is short tempered. There is no denying that she is stubborn. There is no denying that she occasionally treats people like children, particularly if she knew them as children. Which is why I don't understand that when someone points out a legitimate negative point towards Egwene, that is stated in the text, from the characters own POV, as fact, instead of going "OK, she's got her flaws, but I like her anyway/she redeems herself later/ I don't really like Nyn, so it doesn't bother me", people go "She's not doing it to be mean, she's doing it to protect Nynaeve from TAR!!"

 

- Egwene, FROM HER OWN POINT OF VIEW, wants to see Nynaeve again to see if her actions have held. I don't have the book to hand, but I remember a passage where she thinks that she can just raise her eyebrow, give her a look, and... (the dots were there, if I recall correctly, or the sentence ended, I've not just forgotten to end it :P) To me, this doesn't sound like she wanted Nynaeve to see her as an equal, she wants Nynaeve to be cowed by her with a look, because she remembers what Egwene has done to her/ thinks she will do to her otherwise. I'm sorry, that's not seeing someone on equal footing.

 

Now, some of you have mentioned Egwene's youth as a possible explanation- perhaps this is it, perhaps she's having a moment of teenage rebellion, perhaps she doesn't like training alongside someone who's going to be quite substantially more powerful than her, who spanked her as a child. I don't know. But yes, perhaps this is merely age.

 

People have also mentioned that they're not friends, that the group clearly weren't close to/ didn't like Nynaeve when she met up with them at Baerlon. Well... no, of course they weren't close :S Nynaeve's young, true, but she's several years older than them, and the highest female authority in the village. Egwene was her apprentice, much as she was an AS in training and WO apprentice later. The boys were still young, high spirited, and, in the case of Mat, frequently disciplined. She showed, in several occasions in that book alone, that she was willing to put herself at risk to help the others. When they went to Tar Valon, she tells Egwene not to call her Wisdom, because that isn't how the "power dynamic" between them is, anymore. They travel together, at some points they seem quite close. So, for one thing, I wouldn't say they were never friends. And for another, for people mentioning how "why wouldn't Egwene feel elated after their past".. well, Egwene willingly went to be Nynaeve's apprentice. She never mentions her being cruel, or bad at what she does. In fact, politically she often compares their situation, once she is raised to Amyrlin. Yes, she was Nynaeve's subordinate during this time, and yes, I'm sure Nynaeve was bossy. But she was also the teacher- she'd been doing it for more years, and knew much more of the role than Egwene. If we are to take this argument further, then Egwene should have the right to do the same thing she did to Nynaeve to the Wise Ones and AS, because they once had authority over her and treated her like the student that she was.

 

And, before anyone mentions "Oh, but Egwene was Amyrlin and Nynaeve needed to respect her authority", PLEASE NOTE THAT IN THIS POST I REFER ENTIRELY, WITH ONE EXCEPTION, AS NOTED, TO THE TIME BEFORE EGWENE WAS AMYRLIN SEAT, BOTH WERE SIMPLY ACCEPTED, NEITHER ABOVE THE OTHER.