Am i the only one who thinks that Nynaeve is plain rubbish?

[Justanotherfacet]

Ahahhahaha I got censored! Wowee people are so sensitive to a little descriptive language these days !!!

 

Its interesting to read "treated Rand, Perrin and Mat like dirt, treated Nynaeve and Elayne like dirt, treated Gawyn like dirt, treated Siun like dirt," I never really got that impression.

 

Egwene has a role to play and a job to do. She has to act formal and tough. Egwene must treat her friends just the same as any other person as she is no longer just their "friend" she has taken on the responsibility of the Seat and as a result must act for the greater good.

Egwene like most others wields too much power to simply trust a friends judgement, she has to make the best possible decision regardless of peoples feelings.

 

She has lost the luxury (Like all of the Super River Kids besides Nyn) of being only as big as one person.

Rand=World

Ege=White Tower

Mat, Perrin = Lords/Royalty/Generals

 

Its a hell of a lot harder to be anyone except Nyn

[Justanotherfacet]

And dont say "BUT SHES QUEEN OF THE MALKIERI !11!!" Being Queen of nothing and nowhere doesnt count....

 

By the way, ive edited the pol so you may choose multiple responses and i also want to know if you think you're all too harsh on Egwene =)

[sleepinghour]

I'm not a Troll, i'm genuinely interested and I think Nyn is very interesting as a character seeing as (IMO) with all the gifts and connections, all the advantages and getting into so many crazy situations she has succeeded in doing so little.

 

And you've gotta admit. As much as you may love her, i have a point

Well, sure, if you don't count little things like:

 

- Saving Egwene from the Seanchan.

- Defeating and capturing Moghedien, which gave them a number of useful AoL weaves. Egwene didn't discover how to make cuendillar on her own; Moghedien told her how it was done.

- Saving Rand from Rahvin.

- Healing gentling and stilling. And no, she didn't get those skills by accident; she had been studying Siuan, Leane, and Logain for a good while before figuring out how.

- Fixing the weather together with Elayne, thereby saving the world from drought and eventual starvation.

- Cleansing saidin together with Rand. Sure, Rand did the actual work...but he would never have succeeded without the help of a woman, and of the few channelers strong enough to handle the female Choedan Kal, how many would have been willing to trust Rand with their lives?

- Raising an army to fight at Tarwin's Gap.

- Tracking down Graendal for Rand.

- Healing madness from the Taint.

 

Whether you love her or hate her, it's absurd to say Nynaeve has "succeeded in doing so little."

[sandoz12]

It doesn't have to be a binary decision between Nynaeve and Egwene. There is no reason why you can't like or dislike both.

 

I don't really like Egwene but she definitely cops too much, over the top, unfair criticism on here (hence my sig). I have grown to really like Nynaeve even though on my first read, particularly in the the early books, I detested her, but as the series went on I began to like her to the point now where she is one of my favourite characters. In subsequent re-reads I have found her not to be as unlikeable in the early books. The key thing is to look at her actions rather than her words. If you judge her by her words you will most likely come out with an unpleasant reaction however if you study her actions instead I think you can't help but come out with a positive view of her.

 

The other thing with Nynaeve is that, I think, she is her own harshest critic. When you look at her pov's she gives herself a harder time than anyone else does.

[David Selig]

I'm not a Troll, i'm genuinely interested and I think Nyn is very interesting as a character seeing as (IMO) with all the gifts and connections, all the advantages and getting into so many crazy situations she has succeeded in doing so little.

 

And you've gotta admit. As much as you may love her, i have a point

Well, sure, if you don't count little things like:

 

- Saving Egwene from the Seanchan.

- Defeating and capturing Moghedien, which gave them a number of useful AoL weaves. Egwene didn't discover how to make cuendillar on her own; Moghedien told her how it was done.

- Saving Rand from Rahvin.

- Healing gentling and stilling. And no, she didn't get those skills by accident; she had been studying Siuan, Leane, and Logain for a good while before figuring out how.

- Fixing the weather together with Elayne, thereby saving the world from drought and eventual starvation.

- Cleansing saidin together with Rand. Sure, Rand did the actual work...but he would never have succeeded without the help of a woman, and of the few channelers strong enough to handle the female Choedan Kal, how many would have been willing to trust Rand with their lives?

- Raising an army to fight at Tarwin's Gap.

- Tracking down Graendal for Rand.

- Healing madness from the Taint.

 

Whether you love her or hate her, it's absurd to say Nynaeve has "succeeded in doing so little."

 

Exactly. In fact it's clear that Nynaeve had helped the cause of the Light far more than any other character in the series not named Rand or Moiraine. Egwene really can't compare. She has united the Tower and turned one of the Forsaken into vegetable. This really can't compare with Nynaeve's role in saving Rand from Rahvin, the use of the Bowl, the Cleansing, finding the Graendal hideout, stopping Rand from balefiring the Borderlanders army at Far Madding, capturing Moghedien and Semirhage, etc. Like Nynaeve or not, it's just ridiculous to claim she has been useless.

[anotherfingolfin]

I used to absolutely hate her earlier in the series, but not so much anymore. In my current reading of those older bits, she is almost as infuriating as she was back when I first read it, but I see the humour in her bits more now.

 

I hate her attitude towards males, but that aspect has been less at the forefront later in the series. In the context of the general female populace in the series, her misandry is a (tiny little) bit more bearable. I particularly disliked the way she treats Uno, and Thom and Sandar in the middle of the series.

 

As a character, I think she is well written. A major character, a pretty serious character, who was used effectively as mild comic relief in parts is brilliant. Her character development is great- she has changed, for the better, but is still the same person for the most part. Her achievements, barring maybe her taking down Mogh seem the most hard-earned. The healing of severing really is a most remarkable thing, and that she really worked at until it just fell into place. No deus ex machina there.

 

The bit in ToM when Rand aknowledges that he knows she really cares, and that that is her only real motivation (as opposed to most everybody else trying to influence him), was very significant in my opinion.

[he who comes with a bong]

i always laugh a lot when i come across one of these topics every one always hates on some one from the books. but i can honestly say that i do not hate any one from the books cause plain and simple they are fictional ppl and i think it is very funny how ppl start hating on ppl that are not real i can see if they were real id be able to hate them i guess but i really think it is silly to hate something thats not real

[Hopefire]

I'm not a Troll, i'm genuinely interested and I think Nyn is very interesting as a character seeing as (IMO) with all the gifts and connections, all the advantages and getting into so many crazy situations she has succeeded in doing so little.

 

And you've gotta admit. As much as you may love her, i have a point

Well, sure, if you don't count little things like:

 

- Saving Egwene from the Seanchan.

- Defeating and capturing Moghedien, which gave them a number of useful AoL weaves. Egwene didn't discover how to make cuendillar on her own; Moghedien told her how it was done.

- Saving Rand from Rahvin.

- Healing gentling and stilling. And no, she didn't get those skills by accident; she had been studying Siuan, Leane, and Logain for a good while before figuring out how.

- Fixing the weather together with Elayne, thereby saving the world from drought and eventual starvation.

- Cleansing saidin together with Rand. Sure, Rand did the actual work...but he would never have succeeded without the help of a woman, and of the few channelers strong enough to handle the female Choedan Kal, how many would have been willing to trust Rand with their lives?

- Raising an army to fight at Tarwin's Gap.

- Tracking down Graendal for Rand.

- Healing madness from the Taint.

 

Whether you love her or hate her, it's absurd to say Nynaeve has "succeeded in doing so little."

 

Exactly. In fact it's clear that Nynaeve had helped the cause of the Light far more than any other character in the series not named Rand or Moiraine. Egwene really can't compare. She has united the Tower and turned one of the Forsaken into vegetable. This really can't compare with Nynaeve's role in saving Rand from Rahvin, the use of the Bowl, the Cleansing, finding the Graendal hideout, stopping Rand from balefiring the Borderlanders army at Far Madding, capturing Moghedien and Semirhage, etc. Like Nynaeve or not, it's just ridiculous to claim she has been useless.

She was also the one that insisted that she and Elayne follow up on the Kin, she assisted in Perrin/Egwene's rescue from the Whitecloaks, she's the one who was able to track down Tam for Cadsuane, etc. She's done so many little things that have added up over the course of the series.

[Jimvzyl]

Not sure, but after Egwene is raised in Salidar and the Supergirls are all getting a bit giggly over it, doesn't she specifically tell them that they mustn't refer to her as Mother in private and that she still needs friends who she can trust? Which becomes exactly what she demands of Nynaeve later?

 

Anyway, Nynaeve trumps her completely. Can't wait for her to see Moiraine again and see what she does, even if it won't be what she planned in EoTW :)

[Guest PiotrekS]

Not to get into a risky area of Egwene-Nynaeve comparision too much, but allow me to voice this one small point:

 

Nynaeve is a great personality. All her achievements come from her strong and rich personality (and lots of talents, I agree).

 

Egwene has almost no personality. She is an institution personified.

 

I actually like Nynaeve. In case of Egwene, the White Tower could actually be run be a "perfect Aes Sedai" computer program and nobody would notice any difference.

[Himiko]

OK, I'm going to be honest, not entirely sure how relevant Egwene being criticised is to a thread about Nynaeve's personality and accomplishments... But since you brought her up, and says she doesn't have the luxury of treating her friends like friends: This would be more understandable if it had come with her rise to the Amyrlin Seat, but it didn't. She's been treating Nynaeve, and Elayne, to a lesser extent, like crap since they were all Novices/Accepted. When she scares Nynaeve in TAR, she admits its because she doesn't want Nynaeve tattling to the Wise Ones, and later she looks forward to seeing Nynaeve, not because they are friends, but because she knows she can intimidate her now, and it amuses/pleases her. It says as much in her POV. So no, I don't buy that excuse for why she treats her friends badly. She's done it for as long as I can remember. That's not to say that she doesn't have other features that people can appreciate, nor that people won't like her, sometimes huge amounts, in spite of these flaws, but her own POV shows that she DOES treat people badly for less than noble reasons. That said, do I think Egwene comes in for too much criticism? Maybe, she is criticised across the board, but Perrin and Faile (especially Faile) are also often lambasted in unrelated threads, its just something that happens, unfortunately especially when bringing up an unpopular character in an unrelated thread.

 

I think Nynaeve has achieved huge amounts. I don't think she hasn't worked for those achievements, any more than the other characters haven't worked for theirs. She was born with huge potential, more than the other female leads, I will give you that, but on top of that:

 

- She has Healed gentling and stilling, which was NOT, as you say, some powers she happened to be granted. She spent days studying, she played around with the weaves, changed the established ones, and finally got them right. Bear in mind, too, that she was a healer before she realised her potential as a channeler, she's probably got a reasonable understanding of the human body which probably helps her.

- She went toe-to-toe with a Forsaken, early in the series, and captured her. That she escaped is not solely on Nynaeve, as others have said, she was under Egwene's control at that point. Capturing Moghedien taught the Supergirls a lot about weaves that have proved useful to them later in the series.

- She then went to help Rand defeat Rahvin.

- She has healed madness, something that hasn't been done, possibly even in the Age of Legends. A glimmer of hope for the Asha'man who have suffered from the Taint before it was cleansed.

- She made sure that Lan would go to the Blight with an army, which might well save his life, and will certainly do more damage than his daft notions of a suicide run.

- She survived a test for AS that was, by Saerin's admission, unfairly harsh and cruel (not an accident, she learned and remembered the 100 weaves necessary, in some cases she even used them on her surroundings to be more effective).

- At the very start of the series, she goes into a camp full of Whitecloaks to help save Perrin and Egwene.

- She helps to fix the weather.

- In ToM, she's in the tower, fighting Black Ajah.

 

And that's just what I can think of off the top of my head. She works hard for what she achieves- yes, she has a huge amount of power to achieve it with, but Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha are all powerful, too, as is, of course, Rand and many of the male channelers, the Forsaken, the Wise Ones, etc. She's no slouch.

 

Now personality is always going to prove a bit more subjective than achievements, I can list what Nynaeve has done and how she has made an effort to do it, but sometimes people just won't like her personality, its fair enough. I like her character's personality, for the following reasons:

 

- She's brave- whilst she IS afraid in certain situations, she has more than shown she's brave. She's faced the Forsaken. Before she even knew she had powers, she rode off after the Emond's Fielders to "save them". See above with the Whitecloaks.

- She's compassionate- she genuinely wants to help people, she sees people rather than goals. She's one of the few AS to state the obvious- that they are supposed to be servants of all, and work for the good of the world, rather than the WT- she looks out for the Two Rivers people, she stands by Rand.

- She's proud, but capable of swallowing it when necessary- she did so for Cadsuane, when she thought it would help Rand. She told Egwene in TGH not to call her Wisdom any more, because they were just two girls together, going to the WT.

- She sticks to her guns- Just to give an example, telling the AS she WILL be helping Rand at the Last Battle, whether she goes there with the title AS or not.

 

This isn't to take away from other characters- a lot have great personalities, and most of the cast have made great achievements (yes, including Egwene). But I don't see how you can argue Nynaeve hasn't achieved anything, nor that she hasn't had to work for it.

[CrossArmant]

Worry not, buddy, I absolutely despise Nynaeve too. It's far more than a simple "Oh look at all these fantastic things she's done by sheer luck and chance" that makes her a character. I absolutely despise her characterization, regardless of deus ex machina like achievements.

 

For books and books on end all she does is whine. She comes across as a temperamental child who is incredibly stubborn with everyone, especially those who are legitimately more knowledgeable. She's rude to every last character who has ever crossed her path, yells non-stop about everything... She has severe unchecked anger issues, she is severely emotionally unbalanced, and just plain stubborn about everything. She's insanely hypocritical, perpetually yelling about others' "wool-headedness" and "stubbornness" yet she's just as bad, if not exponentially worse. Thom and Juilin follow her around for like three books and she does nothing except treat them like second class citizens, insults them, and then gets huffy whenever they save her or help in anything. She's ungrateful and unappreciative. She seems like the least likeable person in the entire cast of short of the Dark One himself (Though, I imagine he can be nicer than her... he at least rewards the Forsaken for helping him out).

 

People can wax poetic about her abilities and achievements, but those do not make someone a nice person to be around. Her abrasive personality grates my every last nerve whenever she's present.

[mandersen]

Is the question regarding her as a person, or as a character in a book. As a person I would NOT be in her company if i had any choice in the matter. She's hypocritical, delusional (as in, she isn't honest with herself), and a bully. So in that regard i guess i don't like her. HOWEVER, as a character i think she's one of the best. Sometimes those flaws can be frustrating, but most the time it's just humorous. She's a lot like Mat i think. Both are better, braver, and more giving than they will ever realize or admit.

 

On a similar (if less popular) note, I actually like Egwene as a character as well. She can be (even more) frustrating than Nynaeve as a person, but her character does some awesome stuff it's hard not to enjoy reading (besides those endless chapters of Rebel Aes Sedai power struggles. Shoot me in the face).

[Ahaz Flagg]

As was already pointed out, What Nynaeve did will not change the fact that she is a witch!! However to be Fair, the way RJ wrote this, it would be hard to be male and really like most of the women in the book. In fact, I like Min, Soriela, Avhienda and Cadsuane. I will not get off on my Faile Hate, but her and Nynaeve come real close to sharing the biggest hate fest for me.

 

Earlier someone posted it was funny to hate fictional people, the fact that people hate them shows how great RJ was.

[capuga]

Nynaeve, the one who remembers where she came from, stays true to her values, seeks to protect her people, consistently shows personal loyalty and physical courage?

 

The one who, in addition to inventing a new kind of healing (not by accident, but by having the willingness and bravery to experiment and innovate), was also instrumental in the defeat of two Forsaken and the cleansing of the Source?

 

That one?

 

Yeah, she's awful.

 

+1

 

Yes, I thought Nynaeve was a bit bitchy for a good chunk of the series. But she's now matured into a very likable character who is caring of those around her and is no longer the overbearing whiner that she was to start with. So my initial dislike of Nynaeve early in the series has now melted into me thinking she is one of the best characters (and certainly the best Aes Sedai).

[capuga]

Btw out of curiosity, whats Egwenes Forsaken kill count like?

A grand total of zero.

 

I'd go ahead and give her Mesaana. I think vegetable-ising a Forsaken goes in the kill count column.

[DemandredFO]

One more thing, Egwene got Nicola(someone with foretelling) killed even though she knew Nicola would misuse the terangreal and she nearly got an indispensible character killed. Nyneave was a bully but she did it because right or wrong she thought she knew best. Egwene's a bully especially to Nyneave because it gives her pleasure, and for no other reason.

[MauricXe]

Nynaeve, the one who remembers where she came from, stays true to her values, seeks to protect her people, consistently shows personal loyalty and physical courage?

 

The one who, in addition to inventing a new kind of healing (not by accident, but by having the willingness and bravery to experiment and innovate), was also instrumental in the defeat of two Forsaken and the cleansing of the Source?

 

That one?

 

Yeah, she's awful.

 

 

here here.

 

overrated she is not. She is among the greatest Aes Sedai of this age.

 

one of my fav reactions was reading her reaction to Tuon saying "I know your friend Matt" @ Rand. She cares about her friends no matter her status. That is something we should all admire.

[Suttree]

Egwene's a bully especially to Nyneave because it gives her pleasure, and for no other reason.

 

Actually thought it would be far earlier than 3 pages in before the totally irrational Egwene accusations started firing off.

[Terez]

Holy crap this thread has grown. I don't have time to read it all, but...

 

Does anyone else find it funny that the one person who voted 'yes' so far is named Galad?

Especially since Galad used to have a crush on Nynaeve, according to RJ. (Retcon that never made sense, but funny nevertheless.)

That is, of course, what I was thinking of. Nynaeve is one of the few people who can actually throw Galad off his balance, because even though he affects her in the same way he affects other women to a point, she doesn't let that stop her from showing her the rough side of her tongue, so to speak. She frazzles him at least a little bit. The scene in TFOH was the best, though.

[Sleeper]

Nynaeve, the one who remembers where she came from, stays true to her values, seeks to protect her people, consistently shows personal loyalty and physical courage?

 

The one who, in addition to inventing a new kind of healing (not by accident, but by having the willingness and bravery to experiment and innovate), was also instrumental in the defeat of two Forsaken and the cleansing of the Source?

 

That one?

 

Yeah, she's awful.

This.

[Galad]

Does anyone else find it funny that the one person who voted 'yes' so far is named Galad?

 

I mis-voted. I actually love Nynaeve.

[DemandredFO]

Suttree did you Ever actually Read the Egwene POV because I'm really not making that up.

[Suttree]

Suttree did you Ever actually Read the Egwene POV because I'm really not making that up.

 

Quotes?

 

I never took that away from her pov. She needed to make sure those she grew up with acknowledged her new station. Nowhere does it even remotely hint that she bullies others for her enjoyment.

[David Selig]

TFOH, Ch.15

 

What had happened with Nynaeve still amazed her. I think she’d actually have drunk, if I had pressed her. She had been so afraid that Nynaeve would learn that she certainly did not have the Wise Ones’ permission to jaunt about in the World of Dreams alone, so sure that the flush of embarrassment had given her away, that all she could think of was keeping Nynaeve from speaking, keeping her from winkling out the truth. And she had been so sure that Nynaeve would find out anyway — the woman was quite capable of turning her in and saying it was for her own good — that all she could do was talk, try to keep the focus on whatever Nynaeve was doing wrong. No matter how angry Nynaeve made her, she could not seem to bring up a shout. And with all of that, somehow, she had gained the upper hand.

 

Come to think of it, Moiraine seldom raised her voice, and when she did she was least effective in having what she wanted done. It had been so even before she began behaving so strangely with Rand. The Wise Ones never yelled at anyone, either — except each other, sometimes — and for all their grumping about the chiefs no longer listening, they still seemed to get their way much more often than not. There was an old saying that she had never really understood before: “He strains to hear a whisper who refuses to hear a shout.” She would not shout at Rand again. A quiet, firm, womanly voice, that was the thing. For that matter, she ought not to shout at Nynaeve, either; she was a woman, not a girl throwing tantrums.

 

She found herself giggling. She especially ought not to raise her voice with Nynaeve when speaking calmly produced such results.

 

It certainly seems Egwene enjoyed a lot browbeating Nynaeve and summoning those brutes to scare her out of her mind. I wouldn't say that was her main reason (it was to cover her lie to the WO), but it was certainly there.