Has Cadsuane Taught Rand What She Was Meant To?

[Demon_AS]

Yeah, if there's one thing that both Rand and the Asha'man need to learn it's how to work in concert with Aes Sedai - like the Age of Legends! I suppose Cadsuane could be up to the task of teaching them that, but the only problem is that she hasn't really seemed all that keen about the Asha'man in her perspectives.

 

Hard to teach something you don't desire someone to learn in the first place, lol. So, I wonder...

[MasterAblar]

Well I don't think that Rand has a problem with working with aes sedai, I was really thinking more about the ashaman.

 

While it's true that Cadsuane doesn't care much for the ashaman, she isn't a fool, and I think that she knows just how important they are.

Besides her opinion of current aes sedai isn't all that great either.

[noynaert@gmail.com]

I think you may have hit on it with teaching Asha'man and AS to work together and trust each other. It is probably going to be essential, and the trend up until now has been nothing but growing hostility between the two groups. Heck, at this point the Windfinders and AS have a better relationship than the Asha'man and AS. I had assumed that Moraine would be the bridge between Rand and the AS, but Cad has worked with the Asha'man quite a bit, and Moraine doesn't even know that they exist.

 

Cadsuane has already started. She organized linked circles of Asha'man and AS to battle the Forsaken. That is not truly working together or trusting each other, but it is a start. The linking happened when they were cleansing Saidin which is an essential task if the two groups are to work together. Cad might not have liked the idea of AS bonding Asha'man, but she has been very pragmatic about it now that it has been done. She has used the AS with bonded Asha'man and has grilled them for information about Saidin. She does not like how Alanna bonded Rand, but she admitted that if Alanna had not done it, she might have bonded Rand herself. I think she would have bonded an Asha'man by now, but she doesn't want her death to be inflicted on her Warder. Presumably she would not have worried too much about the effect of her death on Rand because she expects him to die before her.

 

Most AS are not going to like the idea of trusting or working together one bit more than the Asha'man. However, as a Green and with her legendary reputation she is probably in the best position to make it happen on both sides of the OP.

 

This doesn't mean I have given up on my knitting theory. The bore will be sealed by stuffing it with a giant knitted tea cozy. It will happen like this: Sitting on the FOM, Egwene realizes that she doesn't have an alternative to Rand's plan to smash the seals. Chesa is sitting in the corner and remarks to no one in particular that she once plugged a mouse hole with a tea cozy. Egwene realizes that Chesa's suggestion is better than anything she has come up with so far and finally takes Chesa's advice on something. Egwene has Cad teach Asha'man to knit, but Cad is utterly frustrated by their inability to purl properly. Cadsuanne's solution is to have Asha'man and AS work together by having Asha'man do the knit stiches and AS do the purls. YES! It all comes together. I finally figured out Chesa's role in the last battle and got the obligatory Egwene bash in this thread!

[Demon_AS]

Well I don't think that Rand has a problem with working with aes sedai, I was really thinking more about the ashaman.

 

While it's true that Cadsuane doesn't care much for the ashaman, she isn't a fool, and I think that she knows just how important they are.

Besides her opinion of current aes sedai isn't all that great either.

Hahaha, have you been reading the same books as me?! Rand has resisted any and all Aes Sedai as much as he can, in an effort to avoid being manipulated. That sort of mistrust means that he's never going to work WITH them unless he has to.

 

True, now that he's Rand Sedai, things will probably be a little different. But still, that inherent suspicion of Aes Sedai has always been one of Rand's defining characteristics throughout the books.

[MasterAblar]

Well I don't think that Rand has a problem with working with aes sedai, I was really thinking more about the ashaman.

 

While it's true that Cadsuane doesn't care much for the ashaman, she isn't a fool, and I think that she knows just how important they are.

Besides her opinion of current aes sedai isn't all that great either.

Hahaha, have you been reading the same books as me?! Rand has resisted any and all Aes Sedai as much as he can, in an effort to avoid being manipulated. That sort of mistrust means that he's never going to work WITH them unless he has to.

 

True, now that he's Rand Sedai, things will probably be a little different. But still, that inherent suspicion of Aes Sedai has always been one of Rand's defining characteristics throughout the books.

 

Well as you said Rand was completely opposed to working with aes sedai before, but post VoG, Rand, as he told Egwene, has realised that he needs the aes sedai. He seems to be pretty suspicion free at the moment. That doesn't mean he's going to blindly trust the aes sedai but as far as realising that it's going to be necessary to work with them goes, there doesn't seem to be an issue for Rand.

Like you said if he has to work with them he will.

[jwood01]

I don't think Cadsuane has actually taught anything yet. :)

 

@Demon_AS. But we know for sure that Min's vision has been partially fulfilled. To me this implies that Cads has taught something. It leaves open the two possibilities: She has more to teach Rand and the Asha'man, or she has taught Rand, but not the other Asha'man.

 

Could suggest Cads will be involved in dealing with the Black Tower in aMoL maybe? Afterall, Aes Sedai will walk the grounds of the Black Tower. Maybe she will show up with all of their parents. Taim's father will tell him he loves him for the first time ever and Taim will renounce the dark one and join with Rand at TG to defeat the DO.

[Demon_AS]

I don't think Cadsuane has actually taught anything yet. :)

 

@Demon_AS. But we know for sure that Min's vision has been partially fulfilled. To me this implies that Cads has taught something. It leaves open the two possibilities: She has more to teach Rand and the Asha'man, or she has taught Rand, but not the other Asha'man.

 

Could suggest Cads will be involved in dealing with the Black Tower in aMoL maybe? Afterall, Aes Sedai will walk the grounds of the Black Tower. Maybe she will show up with all of their parents. Taim's father will tell him he loves him for the first time ever and Taim will renounce the dark one and join with Rand at TG to defeat the DO.

The only thing of any relevance that I think Cadsuane has "taught" Rand is that Callandor is flawed, requiring a circle of two women and a man to use effectively.

 

I can't help but get the feeling that the whole "laughter and tears" thing is a red-herring. I'm not sure it really matters - we'll find out next year lol. But I don't like the wool being pulled over my eyes by sneaky authors :P.

[jwood01]

I agree that the "laughter and tears" could easily be a red herring. It seems that all we know is that Min's prophecy is partially fulfilled, indicating something has been taught by Cads.

[mb]

>> except that none of you will like learning it from her. You aren't going to like it at all.

 

I think that Rand actually likes what she has taught him so far, so I don't think the vision has been fulfilled yet.

I guess "not liking" is the initial response.

Rand "blew up".

[FarShainMael]

Egwene has Cad teach Asha'man to knit, but Cad is utterly frustrated by their inability to purl properly. Cadsuane's solution is to have Asha'man and AS work together by having Asha'man do the knit stiches and AS do the purls. YES! It all comes together.

 

I think you're ribbing us..

 

Ahem. Seriously: I don't think the 'laughter and tears' thing is a red herring:

 

There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow. Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love.

[herid]

 

 

Ahem. Seriously: I don't think the 'laughter and tears' thing is a red herring:

 

There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow. Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love.

I agree that 'laughter and tears' is definitely not a red herring. Apart from that quote that idea is emphasized numerous times throughout a number of books. Rand laughs at the height of his epiphany on the Dragonmount and cries when he meets up with Tam again and so on and so forth.

He doesn't appear to give Cadsuane enough credit on the issue when he pardons her but that does not change the fact that she was played a large role in getting him to change.

I'm sure that this part is what accounts for that viewing of Min being partly fulfilled already.

However, it's much harder to see what she can teach all Asha'man and how she can do it.

 

There are some pretty strong conditions that need to be satisfied here: that she teaches something to ALL Asha'man and that ALL of them dislike it.

 

There are somewhere 500-1000 Asha'man now and Cadsuane likely has never even seen most of them.

I've seen a couple of interesting ideas mentioned in this thread and elsewhere.

 

• That message that Rand sends to Logain and his faction that the Asha'man are men, not weapons. In some way that can be viewed as the continuation of what she already taught Rand. But I don't think that can be it. It's hard to see how this could qualify as her teaching it to all Ash'aman. More importantly, the viewing said that none of them would like learning whatever she had to teach. I don't think this kind of lesson would be uniformly disliked by all or even most Asha'man. Remember Grady's conversation with Perrin about saidin being cleansed? Grady is certainly not somebody who would hate hearing that he is not just a trained killing machine. There are many others like him (Flinn, for example).
  
• The idea that Asha'man need to cooperate with Aes Sedai. Somebody certainly needs to teach them this one but again it's hard to see how Cadsuane can be the one to teach them to all of them, especially given the fact that some of them are doing it already. Take the Asha'man who are warders to Aes Sedai, Grady and Neald and last but not least Androl. Also, again I don't see all of the Asha'man disliking this lesson.
  
• Some sort of lesson on limitations of the One Power of the kind she had to learn herself some 270 years ago froma "toothless wilder in Black Hills" when she earned her ter'angreal. This might involve said ter'angreal somehow. There are again difficulties here in teaching something like this to ALL Asha'man but at least this would probably fulfill the part about none of the Aha'man liking the lesson.
  
• Something to do with Taim. One of Cadsuane's ter'angreal disrupts weaves - that's how she broke Semirhage's disguise. She helped capture Taim and knows what he looks like, yet they never met after Taim enlisted with Rand. If she uncovers the current Taim as an impostor ( maybe even as Moridin) that could be quite a shock to a lot of people including Rand himself. I liked this one for a while but it seems much less likely now given that the division in the BT is basically open now and Logain's faction would definitely not mind something like that happening.
  

[Agitel]

My interpretation is what Rand realizes in ToM. The Asha'man are not just, and can't just be, weapons.

[Demon_AS]

Egwene has Cad teach Asha'man to knit, but Cad is utterly frustrated by their inability to purl properly. Cadsuane's solution is to have Asha'man and AS work together by having Asha'man do the knit stiches and AS do the purls. YES! It all comes together.

 

I think you're ribbing us..

 

Ahem. Seriously: I don't think the 'laughter and tears' thing is a red herring:

 

There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow. Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love.

"Remembers", not "learns" :). And not "is taught", either.

[EvilSocrates]

Egwene has Cad teach Asha'man to knit, but Cad is utterly frustrated by their inability to purl properly. Cadsuane's solution is to have Asha'man and AS work together by having Asha'man do the knit stiches and AS do the purls. YES! It all comes together.

 

I think you're ribbing us..

 

Ahem. Seriously: I don't think the 'laughter and tears' thing is a red herring:

 

There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow. Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love.

"Remembers", not "learns" :). And not "is taught", either.

 

Rand gives Caddy credit for this epiphany, in a round about way. He says something like "you succeeded, in a way" to her re: his laughter epiphany. It actually fits pretty well with the prophecy of him really not liking the lesson. The way Caddy teaches him is that she bungled him all the way to the brink, and then he had his VoG moment. The entire process of being bungled to the brink was awful for Rand. I think the Ashaman have to learn the same lesson (that they are men, not weapons) but their unpleasantness in learning it will be the horrible and long delayed civil war in the Black Tower. It will be a battle of concept symbolically fought by the two sides encompassing two different views of what it is to be an Ashaman: weapons (Taim et. al, many of whom are totally empty inside) vs men (Logain et. al, many of whom are married and experience love).

[Demon_AS]

Egwene has Cad teach Asha'man to knit, but Cad is utterly frustrated by their inability to purl properly. Cadsuane's solution is to have Asha'man and AS work together by having Asha'man do the knit stiches and AS do the purls. YES! It all comes together.

 

I think you're ribbing us..

 

Ahem. Seriously: I don't think the 'laughter and tears' thing is a red herring:

 

There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow. Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love.

"Remembers", not "learns" :). And not "is taught", either.

 

Rand gives Caddy credit for this epiphany, in a round about way. He says something like "you succeeded, in a way" to her re: his laughter epiphany. It actually fits pretty well with the prophecy of him really not liking the lesson. The way Caddy teaches him is that she bungled him all the way to the brink, and then he had his VoG moment. The entire process of being bungled to the brink was awful for Rand. I think the Ashaman have to learn the same lesson (that they are men, not weapons) but their unpleasantness in learning it will be the horrible and long delayed civil war in the Black Tower. It will be a battle of concept symbolically fought by the two sides encompassing two different views of what it is to be an Ashaman: weapons (Taim et. al, many of whom are totally empty inside) vs men (Logain et. al, many of whom are married and experience love).

I was reading ToM earlier, and Rand did seem to imply that Cadsuane deserved a lot of credit for his reforging into Rand Sedai. I still can't shake feeling I get over the word "teach". My entire argument is based around the definition of that word, and I still don't see what Cadsuane has really taught, as I said earlier, beyond the flaw of Callandor.

 

Also, there is a chapter in ToM (13 I think) where Min and Cadsuane are talking about the reference to Callandor in the Karaethon Cycle/Jendai Prophecy, and it seems clear that there is one more flaw beyond what we know already. I wonder if this is what Cadsuane will teach.

[Kahsm]

From reading this thread, I can only conclude that it's impossible to have this discussion when 90% of the participants are only in it to prove that Cadsuane sucks.

[Demon_AS]

From reading this thread, I can only conclude that it's impossible to have this discussion when 90% of the participants are only in it to prove that Cadsuane sucks.

Hahaha, I don't think Cadsuane sucks. I think it's a reaction most people have when they read the books because we all sympathise with Rand, our conquering Hero. She does treat him like a child - almost like she wants to turn him into her own lapdog! The EPIC scene in Tower of Midnight where he puts her down by pointing out that he's several decades older than she is made me laugh out loud like a child given sweeties. Rand Sedai = awesome.

[Elan Tedronai]

the ashman were constructed to be weapons by dumb rand and taim.

 

they need to regain hope and humanity basically. they also need to be raised properly. rand is the sole surviving male aes sedai from a different age.

[mb]

Like others, it seems that Rand's part was fulfilled; but not Ashamen's part.

 

Min's wording::

It's Cadsuane. She is going to teach you something, you and the Asha'man. All the Asha'man, I mean. It's something you have to learn, but I don't know what it is, except that none of you will like learning it from her. You aren't going to like it at all.

 

"something" seems to imply one thing.

I guess Rand learned the something, but not yet the Ashamen.

You mean like what Rand told Naeff to pass on to Logain and what Grady is almost coming to realise on his own?

I was referring to end of Gathering Storm.

 

 

By the way, I have not yet read Towers of Midnight.

[herid]

the ashman were constructed to be weapons by dumb rand and taim.

 

they need to regain hope and humanity basically.

as I said, the problem with this one is that not all Asha'man would dislike learning this lesson. quite a few will like it, Grady, Androl and Flinn for sure to name only a few.

[Finnssss22]

the ashman were constructed to be weapons by dumb rand and taim.

 

they need to regain hope and humanity basically.

as I said, the problem with this one is that not all Asha'man would dislike learning this lesson. quite a few will like it, Grady, Androl and Flinn for sure to name only a few.

 

 

Except, that is not what Cad's is trying to teach them. She's trying to teach them respect and in doing so, as a side effect, she is the only one NOT treating them like weapons.

Everyone else looks, acts and treats them like barely leashed rabid dogs, she treats them like men, even if she doesn't mean to.

 

Again, Min's viewing simply states that Cad's will teach them something and they won't like it. It's not clear if the "it" is what they learn or the how they will learn "it".

It also doesn't mean that what Cad's has her mind set on teaching them is what they actually learn either.

[herid]

the ashman were constructed to be weapons by dumb rand and taim.

 

they need to regain hope and humanity basically.

as I said, the problem with this one is that not all Asha'man would dislike learning this lesson. quite a few will like it, Grady, Androl and Flinn for sure to name only a few.

 

 

Except, that is not what Cad's is trying to teach them. She's trying to teach them respect and in doing so, as a side effect, she is the only one NOT treating them like weapons.

Everyone else looks, acts and treats them like barely leashed rabid dogs, she treats them like men, even if she doesn't mean to.

 

Again, Min's viewing simply states that Cad's will teach them something and they won't like it. It's not clear if the "it" is what they learn or the how they will learn "it".

It also doesn't mean that what Cad's has her mind set on teaching them is what they actually learn either.

Granted that what the Ashaman learn might not be what Cadsuane is actually trying to teach but I don't buy the rest of it. I don't see Cadsuane even trying to teach All Asha'man "respect" so whatever she might end up teaching them as the result of such an attempt would be immaterial. As I said, there are well over 500 Asha'man. Cadsuane never so much as seen most of them and I don't see her holding mass etiquette classess in the future.

[Demon_AS]

the ashman were constructed to be weapons by dumb rand and taim.

 

they need to regain hope and humanity basically.

as I said, the problem with this one is that not all Asha'man would dislike learning this lesson. quite a few will like it, Grady, Androl and Flinn for sure to name only a few.

 

 

Except, that is not what Cad's is trying to teach them. She's trying to teach them respect and in doing so, as a side effect, she is the only one NOT treating them like weapons.

Everyone else looks, acts and treats them like barely leashed rabid dogs, she treats them like men, even if she doesn't mean to.

 

Again, Min's viewing simply states that Cad's will teach them something and they won't like it. It's not clear if the "it" is what they learn or the how they will learn "it".

It also doesn't mean that what Cad's has her mind set on teaching them is what they actually learn either.

Granted that what the Ashaman learn might not be what Cadsuane is actually trying to teach but I don't buy the rest of it. I don't see Cadsuane even trying to teach All Asha'man "respect" so whatever she might end up teaching them as the result of such an attempt would be immaterial. As I said, there are well over 500 Asha'man. Cadsuane never so much as seen most of them and I don't see her holding mass etiquette classess in the future.

Exactly, and why should she care whether they respect her or not? Likely if Rand respects her, they will too, because he's their leader (sort of, we'll leave the M'Hael out of this lol).

 

I'm starting to think that whatever she has to teach them may have to do with the Power, rather than a significant life lesson. I don't think it's that "We are not weapons. We are men" because the Asha'man should rejoice at hearing such news - I think it was Grady that had a whole chapter in ToM called "Beyond The Taint" or whatever where he reaches a similar conclusion after discussing the Cleansed saidin with Perrin (who also has an epiphany about Rand fighting so he could die).

 

All of that leads me to think it won't be "laughter and tears and respect" or whatever.

[Graveyardhag]

The thing I find interesting about this viewing is that Min specifically states "ALL the Asha'man"

All of them? This would include all the darkfriend Asha'man at this point. Assuming Taim is not an imposter this would also include him (assuming he is an imposter makes this a moot point I guess)

It would include our friendly friend with the creepy eyes Mezar (Do I have this name right? you all know who I mean)

 

 

So 2 conclusions here:

 

1 - Cadsuane does something fantastically awesome that somehow teaches every single Asha'man, regardless of allegiances.... something.

2 - Cadsuane cannot complete this viewing until after the Black Tower has been dealt with, and only lightside Asha'man are left, at which point she will do something that somehow teaches them... something.

[MasterAblar]

The thing I find interesting about this viewing is that Min specifically states "ALL the Asha'man"

All of them? This would include all the darkfriend Asha'man at this point. Assuming Taim is not an imposter this would also include him (assuming he is an imposter makes this a moot point I guess)

It would include our friendly friend with the creepy eyes Mezar (Do I have this name right? you all know who I mean)

 

 

So 2 conclusions here:

 

1 - Cadsuane does something fantastically awesome that somehow teaches every single Asha'man, regardless of allegiances.... something.

2 - Cadsuane cannot complete this viewing until after the Black Tower has been dealt with, and only lightside Asha'man are left, at which point she will do something that somehow teaches them... something.

 

No the traitors aren't counted as ashaman, even if it's not known that they are traitors yet. The ashaman up in Saldea makes it clear that any man who serves the shadow is not an ashaman.