Anyone else gradually come to like Nynaeve?

[randsc]

but character development is one of the biggest differences in the wheel of time series compared to other series (like lotr) ... in fact i often describe the wot books as "its like lotr but with actual plot and character development" which may be another reason i dont really like nynaeve... she needs to be humbled

 

I disagree completely about WOT having a lot of character development.

I'd actually say most characters have developed very little, they are all either black or white, good guys or bad guys and never change course.

Each one serves a specific purpose.

 

After reading the first book, you can say this about each character:

Moiraine - Teacher, Yoda type.

Lan - Super swordsman who put his Honor above all else, and will always sacrifice himself for the greater good.

Rand - Sheepherder/nobody/orphan boy with ambiguous past, turned savior of mankind.

Mat - Rogue gambler, comedic character, who looks out for number 1, but somehow always saves everyone else.

Perrin - Blacksmith-muscle-man who can communicate with wild animals, but is really quite gentle and caring.

 

Nyaneve is the typical "Medic/super strong magician" character.

"Oh no, this character is going to die! Wait, here comes Nyaneve, she'll save him!"

 

After reading the last book, they're all still the same characters they started out like, I wouldn't say Nyaneve is any more or less likable then the rest.

They're all quite bland individually, but make a nice dish when mixed together.

 

 

^^^^This

 

Times 4000.

[Ingtar Shinowa]

Like a lot of others, I started the series in my late teens, and so identified with the three tavaren more so than the female authority figures Nyn and Mo. Many years later re reading the series, I find Nyn much less grating and Mo has become one of my favorite characters.

[brolie]

but character development is one of the biggest differences in the wheel of time series compared to other series (like lotr) ... in fact i often describe the wot books as "its like lotr but with actual plot and character development" which may be another reason i dont really like nynaeve... she needs to be humbled

 

I'm sorry, but I actually choked on my coffee when I read this.

 

If that's how you are describing the WoT, you are doing a disservice to potential readers.

 

most people around here aren't readers in any way so i have to put it in simple terms where they can relate it to something that has also been turned into a movie.. i dumb it down to give them some sort of idea..

 

but character development is one of the biggest differences in the wheel of time series compared to other series (like lotr) ... in fact i often describe the wot books as "its like lotr but with actual plot and character development" which may be another reason i dont really like nynaeve... she needs to be humbled

 

I disagree completely about WOT having a lot of character development.

I'd actually say most characters have developed very little, they are all either black or white, good guys or bad guys and never change course.

Each one serves a specific purpose.

 

After reading the first book, you can say this about each character:

Moiraine - Teacher, Yoda type.

Lan - Super swordsman who put his Honor above all else, and will always sacrifice himself for the greater good.

Rand - Sheepherder/nobody/orphan boy with ambiguous past, turned savior of mankind.

Mat - Rogue gambler, comedic character, who looks out for number 1, but somehow always saves everyone else.

Perrin - Blacksmith-muscle-man who can communicate with wild animals, but is really quite gentle and caring.

 

Nyaneve is the typical "Medic/super strong magician" character.

"Oh no, this character is going to die! Wait, here comes Nyaneve, she'll save him!"

 

After reading the last book, they're all still the same characters they started out like, I wouldn't say Nyaneve is any more or less likable then the rest.

They're all quite bland individually, but make a nice dish when mixed together.

 

my main example of this is egwene. and this whole thread is based on emotions changing for characters throughout the novels... if they all stayed the same, why would your opinion change? so egwene was a whiny "im going with you rand al thor because my hair is in a braid and nynaeve is my hero" ... she goes through the wise one training, being collared and her gradual change into a mature leader capable of making the decisions she has to. she has mountains of character development. rand doesn't really have a character, he has a title. his character changes every time he is mentioned. i hated mat in the beginning but he has grown up a lot throughout the series and opened his mind up more even though he is still fairly stubborn and flighty. i suppose a lot of it has to do with the characters maturing but i see changes in almost all of them. but i suppose looking at it as a literary piece of work instead of a fun story, is gives me this impression

[randsc]

The problem isn't comparing WoT to LoTR. That is a perfectly rational reference point.

 

The problem is telling people that tWoT is distinguished by its plot and characterization, when those are perhaps the weakest elements of Jordan's writing.

[SuperFade]

Nynaeve is probably the best example of character development in the entire series. My view on her in the early books hasn't changed very much over the years; I still find her to be utterly infuriating. However, in the last quarter of the series she grows into the most mature and understanding female lead, shedding a great deal of her more chauvinistic attitudes whilst keeping her drive and passion.

[Mystica]

I think you're right about Nynaeve and it does highlight that our likes of specific characters highlights our own world-view. Nynaeve, to me, has something of the Kate from the Taming of the Shrew about her - except RJ takes it off in a different direction altogether!

 

I do think readers complain way more about female characters in WoT than male ones but I think that shows how brilliant a writer RJ was.

 

Take Faile for instance, the bête noire of WoT. She who is most loathed of all light characters, and why is she so disliked? She has different opinions, she has her husband's and her own self-interest at heart and she is ruthless. She can be arrogant, but tell me a teenager (and that is what she is) who doesnt know everything? I would argue that these 'unfeminine' traits are what people dislike about her. Because it is not a common trope in fantasy in general people instinctively dislike her.

 

Live a little, and you see that the character types that RJ uses all the time. As a man in my 30s, I can testify that I've dated more than my fair share of Faile's in my time. And one or two Nynaeves and an Elayne. I ended up with an Egwene...but then, all wives end up as Amyrlin *sigh*

 

 

I'd like to come back to this for a moment and clarify a few things, because it's a bit unfair to toss all 'Faile haters' on a pile labeled as unexperienced young princess girls. I'm a woman in her 40's, very much an advocate of equal rights between genders and have had my share of life's experience. To compare the teenagers of WOT with the teenagers of our world is simplifying things.

 

Almost all Queens, Kings and rulers in WOT are barely out of their teens when they take command. Those we call kids in our world are considered mature enough to marry, lead armies and take thrones in WOT. As indeed was the case in our world back in the Middle Ages and before.

 

Faile's actions have always, since the start, been driven by her selfish desire for glory and fame. She became a Hunter for the Horn for that specific purpose. She more than once directly indicated how she hated her Perrin being in the shadow of the Dragon Reborn and to this day she still bristles (to use an understatement) at the thought of her Perrin (and through him, she herself) being subjective to anyone. Her age has nothing to do with this, it's a character issue. Tons of others in the books are her age or younger and have shown a much higher level of maturity almost from the start.

 

Perrin would have become who he is with or without Faile. She's irrelevant to it. The Pattern would have shifted things to MAKE him who he needed to become. Instead, she's made him a slobbering, drooling, moaning and whining apron's slave to her whims for book after book. Culminating in him GIVING the Manetheren banner to the Seanchan, of all people, and being fully ready to sell off the world itself just to have her back. Admirable in a regular man, of course, but NOT when the faith of the world is hanging on a thread.

 

He knew full well that what he did was wrong. Hence the guilt trip thing afterwards. And yet, he STILL went and did it. He STILL would have traded with the Forsaken themselves and the Light be damned forever. And that for the one of the three that had the biggest sense of responsibility, the deepest insight in that which needed to be done, when they started out. And all that because of some slip of a girl that ran away from home to become a hero. To see her name in the history books.

 

 

[Ogrelin]

I started to like her more in the last two books.

[randsc]

There is a difference between "adventure" and "glory and fame." Faile ran away to seek the former, not the latter.

 

And there are not "plenty" of characters as young or younger. She is the youngest major character. No older than 17 at the time she became a Hunter.

[David Selig]

Perrin would have become who he is with or without Faile. She's irrelevant to it. The Pattern would have shifted things to MAKE him who he needed to become. Instead, she's made him a slobbering, drooling, moaning and whining apron's slave to her whims for book after book.

That's Perrin's own choice. In fact Faile has been constantly pushing to stand up for himself, but he refuses time after time. it's not her fault he's a pushover most of the time. And the Pattern can't do everything. Someone has to do the actual work of governing, organising and all that while Perrin was mostly busy whining "I don't want to be a Lord" for 10 books, and Faile did most of that work.

 

Culminating in him GIVING the Manetheren banner to the Seanchan, of all people, and being fully ready to sell off the world itself just to have her back. Admirable in a regular man, of course, but NOT when the faith of the world is hanging on a thread.

Again, that's on Perrin. Besides, resurrecting Manetheren was never supposed to be more than a ruse anyway, so Perrin didn't give up anything important by agreeing not to raise its banner anymore.

[Guest PiotrekS]

RJ's characters are combinations of certain tropes or archetypes, so it seems perfectly undestandable we're not getting too much character develoment - with certain notable exceptions.

 

It isn't a book about Mr Joe Smith who develops to become an interesting and complicated human being. The characters in WOT are like pieces on the board, largely predtermined by their purpose.

 

When this is taken into account, I think that RJ did a good job in making them quite human despite huge amounts of mythological and prophetic baggage lot of main characters have to carry.

 

And I've loved Nynaeve from book 1

[Ingtar Shinowa]

Perrin would have become who he is with or without Faile. She's irrelevant to it. The Pattern would have shifted things to MAKE him who he needed to become. Instead, she's made him a slobbering, drooling, moaning and whining apron's slave to her whims for book after book.

That's Perrin's own choice. In fact Faile has been constantly pushing to stand up for himself, but he refuses time after time. it's not her fault he's a pushover most of the time. And the Pattern can't do everything. Someone has to do the actual work of governing, organising and all that while Perrin was mostly busy whining "I don't want to be a Lord" for 10 books, and Faile did most of that work.

 

Culminating in him GIVING the Manetheren banner to the Seanchan, of all people, and being fully ready to sell off the world itself just to have her back. Admirable in a regular man, of course, but NOT when the faith of the world is hanging on a thread.

Again, that's on Perrin. Besides, resurrecting Manetheren was never supposed to be more than a ruse anyway, so Perrin didn't give up anything important by agreeing not to raise its banner anymore.

 

Actually, both of those are on RJ. Taking a character that was setting up to be awesome and for some reason deciding to make him....whatever it is that he turned into. Really, up through tSR Perrin was far and away my favorite, and then RJ went and did that to him. Ugh.

[sandoz12]

On my first couple reads of the series I strongly disliked Nynaeve. However, I definitely enjoyed her character more in the later books to the point where I like her. But what has changed on re-reads is that I start to like her earlier and related to this is a point Brandon made on twitter (hope I am recalling this correctly) about how even from the start if you watch her actions rather than her words you see that her heart is always in the right place. Coming to realise this has allowed me to appreciate her character throughout the series.

[USURP888]

I love Nynaeve, she is by far my favorite female character and my 2nd overall favorite after Mat. When I think of her through out the series, I see her as the female version of Mat. Mat dodges responsibility but ends up being the Hero anyways, Nynaeve curses and braid tugs but in the end she does what is best. A good heart, loyal and passionate.

 

She's also a good comic relief for me for some reason, her rescue by Lan and the subsequent conversations with him and also the part where she was dragging Moghedien in TAR to look for Rand and Rahvin. Not to mention when she healed Logain and afterwards when she healed Siuan and Leane. I know these three scenes were supposed to be dramatic but the way Nynaeve acted during those moments really made me laugh.

 

Egwene may be Amyrlin Seat but I would say the Nynaeve has earned "Legendary" status more. Healing Stilling, Cleansing Saidin, defeating a Forsaken and hopefully in AMOL - participating in shutting the Bore. Aside from Rand, no channeler in this Age has done more.

[CharmingOlver]

During the first couple of books Nynaeve was at times infuriating in her righteousness but I surely grew to love her. Nowadays she is my absolute favourite character, I always look forward to and enjoy her appearances.

And - no other character made me laugh so much as Nynaeve did.

 

She is straightforward, independant, responsible, and proud, but never haughty, secretive, slippery, dodgy, cunning - one of the most infuriating character traits of most AS.

[Smittyphi]

I hated Nynaeve until she unblocked herself and got married to Lan. She quickly turned into one of my fav characters. Upon rereading it, she's extremely consistent. The only thing I would say is that she has matured.

[Himiko]

I think its true that Nynaeve hasn't changed very much, and I don't think she's anywhere near the best example of character development, but I don't think that a character totally changing is neccessarily a sign of great character development- a lot of people quote Egwene as an example of character development, but to me, she changes her outlook totally at each new surrounding- that suggests less character development than it does a persistent personality trait that she keeps throughout the books, to me. Of course, other people probably see it differently.

 

Personally, I think Nynaeve does develop in some ways- there are many things consistent about Nynaeve- her temper, her need to protect the people she cares about, her dedication to healing, her pride. But I'd say she definitely changes to some small extents, and matures. Throughout the books, she's begun to swallow her pride more easily if she thinks it will help people she cares about. Her initial desire to use the one power to get revenge on Moiraine changes when she thinks of the potential for healing. Her pride and defiance are still in place, but she has a much better idea where to direct them at, IMO. Not very good at expressing myself today, I fear...

[b3arz3rg3r]

Always loved Nynaeve. Never understood any of the dislike for her at any point.

 

Just be a boy in his early teens who wants to read about the boys he can identify with and not about the authoritative woman who always knows better would be my advice. That's how it was for me. I remember the first time I read Eye of the World I skipped straight through all the female POV because I didn't want to read them

 

Sexism

 

I freely admit I was completely sexist. Girls sucked at real sports, by which I mean soccer, they didn't play any interesting games and worst of all they were girls XD.

[CrossArmant]

While I am only halfway through Crown of Swords, I still absolutely despise Nynaeve. Everytime I stumble upon a chapter with her in it, it's so strenuous to read. I agree with the OP on the idea of throwing her in a bag and selling her to slavery in Shara. She's been perpetually haughty and unwilling to cede any kind of ignorance to anything, constantly acting entitled despite being some small town hick girl who is always getting into things too deep.

 

Another thing that's always bugged me with her (and the series as a whole) is the Lan/Nynaeve love side-story. Did I completely miss something? Because in EotW she just keeps saying "Grr... burn you Aes Sedai and Warders." All she did was trek with Lan and Moiraine for the bit of time it took for them to be all reunited in Caemlyn after the Shadar Logoth affair, and then all of a sudden with almost no preface Lan and Nynaeve have this whole fatalistic "I love you but we cannot be together thing, but I'd marry you in a heartbeat and die for you" talk. Huh? The whole thing seems so forced and artificial. And then I have to suffer through every single one of her POVs for the next 5000 pages whining on how Lan liked green dresses and what their kids would look like. Woman, please! The world is ending and you're freaking out on a guy who you spent like a month and a half with and he said a grand total of 8 words the whole time! Grr... so forced and contrived of a relationship it upsets me everytime I hear mention of it.

[Mr Hindley]

XD I actually adored Nynaeve from the moment I started reading her. I don't know why, I just found her a joy to read, and whilst she could be extremely bossy, and didn't respond very well to being ordered, I found this to be reasonably well-written, if nothing else. She's a full grown woman, the most senior woman in her hometown, who's had to cope with accusations of being too young for the job for a long time- I don't think her stubbornness is neccessarily a "good" trait, but its very Nynaeve :P And I feel to a certain extent that this stubbornness, and distrust of the Aes Sedai that she has early on has a lot to do with the huge amount of new healing skills she has developed, and her stance on the White Tower- that they should be out there, helping people rather than themselves.

 

I do remember in some of the books (around book 8,9 maybe?) going off her a bit, as a lot of her appearances became "Let's watch Nynaeve being stubborn and getting taken down a peg or two, hahaha...", but in the books since then, I've regained all my love and a bit besides.

 

I have read a lot of opinions saying similar things to this thread, though, that they started off disliking Nynaeve and she's grown on them, so I think its certainly a popular opinion :)

 

 

One of the reasons is that I've come to appreciate the humour in her chapters more. Her PoV in TFOH especially easily beats even Mat's for the title of funniest in WoT IMO.

 

I came onto this thread with something to say, but the two posters above have summed it up pretty perfectly for me already

[Ingtar Shinowa]

While I am only halfway through Crown of Swords, I still absolutely despise Nynaeve. Everytime I stumble upon a chapter with her in it, it's so strenuous to read. I agree with the OP on the idea of throwing her in a bag and selling her to slavery in Shara. She's been perpetually haughty and unwilling to cede any kind of ignorance to anything, constantly acting entitled despite being some small town hick girl who is always getting into things too deep.

 

Another thing that's always bugged me with her (and the series as a whole) is the Lan/Nynaeve love side-story. Did I completely miss something? Because in EotW she just keeps saying "Grr... burn you Aes Sedai and Warders." All she did was trek with Lan and Moiraine for the bit of time it took for them to be all reunited in Caemlyn after the Shadar Logoth affair, and then all of a sudden with almost no preface Lan and Nynaeve have this whole fatalistic "I love you but we cannot be together thing, but I'd marry you in a heartbeat and die for you" talk. Huh? The whole thing seems so forced and artificial. And then I have to suffer through every single one of her POVs for the next 5000 pages whining on how Lan liked green dresses and what their kids would look like. Woman, please! The world is ending and you're freaking out on a guy who you spent like a month and a half with and he said a grand total of 8 words the whole time! Grr... so forced and contrived of a relationship it upsets me everytime I hear mention of it.

 

Yeah, you totally missed that one. She was smitten with Lan pretty much from the begining.

[Skeeve the Great]

Let me put this way, out of all female characters, with all turbulence in the world, who would you like to have on your side to pull your butt out of fire? Nynaeve. If this woman is determine (and sometimes not) to help you, even Forsaken better to run. Case closed.

[Goldstar]

To be quite frank, Nynaeve knows her crap. She's knowledgable, the ultimate healer, determined, strong, and ready to tell you you're an idiot. I see why Lan loves her.

[sandoz12]

Let me put this way, out of all female characters, with all turbulence in the world, who would you like to have on your side to pull your butt out of fire? Nynaeve. If this woman is determine (and sometimes not) to help you, even Forsaken better to run. Case closed.

Very true - that is a good point. This is partly why she is the one Aes Sedai whom Rand truly trusts (though when Moraine returns to his side there will be two).

[Barid Bel Medar]

Its funny to see the only ones that dislike her havent read past KoD's.

 

Of course, its totally understandable, we only se e Nynaeve's annoying side from Mat, Elayne, Egwene, Perrin and Rand's PoV. All of them are bias against her. Mat hates authority figures, Elayne and Nynaeve were all fighting and such from spending too much time together, Egwene... she just wanted to prove she was better than Nynaeve, Perrin and Rand are probably the most impartial, but they still are grudging of her wanting to protect them.

 

WE do still get a lot of Nynaeve PoV's, and I agree she can be frustrating in her PoV, but it is made infinitely worse by the bias' of the other characters. Her PoVs, when you actually understand them, you see that she is far worse in the eyes of others because they dont know how caring, loyal, fierce etc.. she is and why she does things.

[David Selig]

Actually I think Nynaeve often looks a better person when seen from the PoV of others (except Mat, who's really not a fan of her ;)) than from her own. You don't get her usual "Men are useless fools" type of thoughts, for one thing, and while her hypocritical thoughts are quite amusing at times, they still show a significant character flaw. But when you judge Nynaeve only by her actions, it's much harder not to like her.