Who do you feel most sorry for?

[Agitel]

Tylin raped Mat. With that said, I don't think Mat felt sexually abused. Abused, maybe, but not in a sexually violated way. That's not what I got from his POV.

[Phariah]

Perrin. he comes home to find his whole family slaughtered.

 

Rand. his trials and suffering.

 

Lan. being the King of a lost land and shattered people.

 

Verin. giving your life and soul for the right reason.

 

Min. all her visions. yes she sees good things, but all the bad things and she can't do anything to save them.

 

 

people who i don't feel bad for. Elaida, Alanna, Fain ( the originl ). they should suffer more.

[Luckers]

Tylin raped Mat. With that said, I don't think Mat felt sexually abused. Abused, maybe, but not in a sexually violated way. That's not what I got from his POV.

 

I don't think rape is the appropriate word there. Tylin sexually harassed Mat ultimately leading to her sexually assaulting him, which isn't better, but I don't think it can be phrased that she raped him.

[Sleeper]

Tylin raped Mat. With that said, I don't think Mat felt sexually abused. Abused, maybe, but not in a sexually violated way. That's not what I got from his POV.

 

I don't think rape is the appropriate word there. Tylin sexually harassed Mat ultimately leading to her sexually assaulting him, which isn't better, but I don't think it can be phrased that she raped him.

 

rape

1    [reyp] Show IPA noun, verb, raped, rap·ing.

–noun

1. the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse.

2. any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person.

3. statutory rape.

4. an act of plunder, violent seizure, or abuse; despoliation; violation: the rape of the countryside.

5. Archaic . the act of seizing and carrying off by force.

Tylin did force herself on Mat.

[MatrixM]

She put a knife to his throat...

 

Hopefully the ellipsis lets you know what i'm getting at

[Zentari]

Tylin raped Mat. With that said, I don't think Mat felt sexually abused. Abused, maybe, but not in a sexually violated way. That's not what I got from his POV.

 

I don't think rape is the appropriate word there. Tylin sexually harassed Mat ultimately leading to her sexually assaulting him, which isn't better, but I don't think it can be phrased that she raped him.

So she STALKED mat to the death before tying him down,putting a knife to his throat and then jumping his bones yet it isn't rape ?

If you or I went around doing that we would be thrown in jail in no time.

Stop trying to justify the unjustifiable.

[Luckers]

So she STALKED mat to the death before tying him down,putting a knife to his throat and then jumping his bones yet it isn't rape ?

If you or I went around doing that we would be thrown in jail in no time.

Stop trying to justify the unjustifiable.

 

What part of what I wrote was a justification? Or even had the slightest hint that i was attempting to mitigate the judgement of her crime? She sexually assaulted him. But rape is not the most applicatible word for describing that assault. It's not that it is not applicable at all--just that there are far more precise methods with which to describe what occured, leaving no room for precisely the same sort of mitigation that you fear.

 

Because trust me, and you will likely see, soon enough there will be those looking to do it. Looking to say--see, this element here, its not rape. Therefore she didn't rape him. A logically unfounded argument, but there are those who will make it--I've been through enough forum wars on this subject to know this.

 

I prefer things kept precise and clear. Tylin sexually harassed Mat, and when he did not give in she escalated to a full sexual assault. There is no mitigation in me saying this, no shadowing to make things nicer. It is simply more concise, and thus, more damning.

[Zentari]

So she STALKED mat to the death before tying him down,putting a knife to his throat and then jumping his bones yet it isn't rape ?

If you or I went around doing that we would be thrown in jail in no time.

Stop trying to justify the unjustifiable.

 

What part of what I wrote was a justification? Or even had the slightest hint that i was attempting to mitigate the judgement of her crime? She sexually assaulted him. But rape is not the most applicatible word for describing that assault. It's not that it is not applicable at all--just that there are far more precise methods with which to describe what occured, leaving no room for precisely the same sort of mitigation that you fear.

 

Because trust me, and you will likely see, soon enough there will be those looking to do it. Looking to say--see, this element here, its not rape. Therefore she didn't rape him. A logically unfounded argument, but there are those who will make it--I've been through enough forum wars on this subject to know this.

 

I prefer things kept precise and clear. Tylin sexually harassed Mat, and when he did not give in she escalated to a full sexual assault. There is no mitigation in me saying this, no shadowing to make things nicer. It is simply more concise, and thus, more damning.

So you don't use rape as term, because... ?

Some people will defend anything up to and including what happened there.Saying that there is a more fitting description is true ( since it is a general term refering to the act of sex without consent) but it doesn't discard the term.

 

Sorry if I sounded a little rude or hot blooded on this, it just gets under my skin how some people go the extra mile to make excuses.

[Elan Tedronai]

heh,

 

can't believe ppl feel sorry for mat. He had no objections in the end

[Luckers]

So you don't use rape as term, because... ?

 

Read what you quoted.

 

Sorry if I sounded a little rude or hot blooded on this, it just gets under my skin how some people go the extra mile to make excuses.

 

And it gets under mine when people don't bother to read or think about what they've read before deciding somethings gotten under their skin and leaping in guns blazing, so I suppose you'll forgive me if I sound a little rude or hot blooded in return.

 

heh,

 

can't believe ppl feel sorry for mat. He had no objections in the end

 

Piece of advice--whether you agree with someones assessment of a sexual assault, responding to them being upset about the concept by laughing is not the best form of expressing your disagreement.

[Lynander]

SO I don't understand how it's not rape. It was without his consent and forced upon him while tied up by knife point. It is obviously sexual harassment and sexual assault which. Rape is a form of sexual assault. Luckers, what exactly is the distinction that makes it sexual assault and not rape? (just curious, not attacking you or anything like that)

 

I definately feel sorry for Cabriana. Also the Brotherless that helps Faile out and then gets offed by Perrin. Then there's the DF that threatened with the death of his family through a few of the books.

[randsc]

How are "sexual assault" and "rape" not synonymns?

 

It seems to me that if you accept the premise that this was an assault, then "rape" is a perfectly valid description.

 

It is also pretty clear to me that RJ fell into the Elan Tedronai, "Men can't be raped by women" school of thought.

[Luckers]

SO I don't understand how it's not rape. It was without his consent and forced upon him while tied up by knife point. It is obviously sexual harassment and sexual assault which. Rape is a form of sexual assault. Luckers, what exactly is the distinction that makes it sexual assault and not rape? (just curious, not attacking you or anything like that)

 

I actually never made that distinction, I'm afraid. I said that sexual assualt is a more precise term, not that it was one and not the other. Things can be two things at once, without them necessarily being a form of synonym. Different shadings.

 

[edited to remove the vaguely patronising comment that I had absolutely no intention of making, with appologies for having unwittingly made it--and worse, for not noticing it until I did my re-read]

 

I did try to explain above why 'sexual assault' is a more precise term above, I'll try again below.

 

It seems to me that if you accept the premise that this was an assault, then "rape" is a perfectly valid description.

 

Rape IS a valid description--just not perfectly valid, rape covers a whole strata of things, including, but not limited to an 18 year old and a 15 year old having sex, that both are happy to have and [think] they are consenting to [but aren't because one is too young, and thus too immature to understand what it is they are consenting too], to terrible sex dungeons involving torture instruments, disfiguration and total personal subjugation (i.e. damane level breakings of the spirit) [read the next paragraphs--don't leap on this coz I know what your thinking].

 

But I'll be more specific, because I can see you going 'well, sexual assault can cover the same strata', so why do I choose one term over the other...

 

I've had the Mat/Tylin argument before. People will, invariably, point out that Mat enjoyed elements, or that he resigned himself to the situation, or [insert whatever other justification you want]. From there they proceed to the specific, but most commonly held perception of rape, which involves the vicious physical overpowering of the victim, forced immediate penetration, and then, with that particular definition in mind they point to the above list about Mat's side of the situation and say--see, it isn't rape.

 

I dislike leaving them this wiggle room--and this worst-case-scenario image of what is rape is why the term 'sexual assault' was first coined. Whether you lock down on the image of rape as depicted by most Law and Order SVU episodes, you cannot deny that Tylin used force to get Mat in to bed--she locked him up, denied him food, and used a knife--and once you've proved force, you've proved sexual assault even if you havn't got the prison shower rape scene from American History X laid out for you.

 

....

 

Mind you, not that my distinction stops them arguing, it just leaves them less room to argue through. And invariably when they respond I ask them whether they would be as amused by a King using his servants to lock a young woman in her room, deny her food, and then force her at knifepoint to have sex with him.

 

I'd add the social and cultural constraints Mat was under which limited the ways he could react to being forced as a man in this world, but that just re-opens the debate. What you all don't get is that I'm coming to this game as a veteren of this fight having occured many, many times. There have been flamewars upon this that have nearly brought the board to a screaming halt. If I seem to be specific it's not because I'm being anal, or playing at semantics, it's because mine is a position that has been forged and fine-honed in fire.

 

Doesn't stop the arguments, or convince anyone, sadly, but yes, I make the destinctions I make, from experience.

 

So to reiterate, I think its more precise to say Tylin sexually harassed Mat, and when that failed sexually assaulted him. The word 'rape' invites too much mess.

[Sleeper]

Well justified, I understand your position a little more clearly now.

[Lynander]

Well justified, I understand your position a little more clearly now.

This

[Luckers]

In fact, the best example of what I'm talking about is the situation of prosecuting rape in marriages. Even after it became legally possible to say your husband raped you, courts were disinclined to give a guilty verdict. After all, you presumably love your husband, are sexually attracted to him--why on earth would he be raping you?

 

But sexual assault, in the very words, makes an interesting distinction--it's sexual assault, an assault which is sexual--in that it points out that forced sex is not just about having sex, its about asserting power. With rape it sounds like it's just about the sex. Sexual assault adds dimensions. It's disturbing, yes, and based on a baseless perception, but it was very much the case.

 

Many correlations exist. People say, Mat enjoyed it, he was sexually attracted to Tylin, he had feelings about her [insert quote, and they will, with a smug look saying 'yeah, now you don't have a leg to stand on'].

 

Though the two phrases essentially cover the same acts, there are destinctions, and Mat and Tylin did not have a violent enough relationship for many people to constitute in their own heads as being rape; there's not enough force, there's reciprocated feelings. And so, much like the court system did in applying the phrase sexual assault to deal with the less... blatant... forms of sexual abuse, so do I here.

 

 

(sorry, you got me started. I'll go sit in a corner now and calm down. :D)

[Guest cindy.]

shhhhhhh. . . it's alright. . .

 

calm blue ocean, calm blue ocean. . .

[Smittyphi]

I still don't know which side I fall on. I agree with Luckers on his points but they only thing that doesn't ring true to me is my initial, gut, knee-jerk reaction is Mat did want it deep down. He could easily disarm Tylin but chose not to. Like I said, it was my initial reaction and I still feel that way. You can reply to this but I won't reply back as I have read many arguments when I was lurking before.

[randsc]

I still don't know which side I fall on. I agree with Luckers on his points but they only thing that doesn't ring true to me is my initial, gut, knee-jerk reaction is Mat did want it deep down. He could easily disarm Tylin but chose not to. Like I said, it was my initial reaction and I still feel that way. You can reply to this but I won't reply back as I have read many arguments when I was lurking before.

 

Could he get his men, who he obviously feels responsible for, out of a Seanchan-occupied city? How about Olver? The Aes Sedai he has promised to help?

[Red2111]

in Tylin's defense, Matt wanted it but was just playing hard to get nah, i actually enjoyed reading Matt get what he got with Tylin, with all his womanizing and scoundrel ways. matt's one of my least fav characters in the series, so i guess i'm a bit biased in this assesstment

 

 

 

i feel most sorry for Hopper

[Luckers]

I still don't know which side I fall on. I agree with Luckers on his points but they only thing that doesn't ring true to me is my initial, gut, knee-jerk reaction is Mat did want it deep down. He could easily disarm Tylin but chose not to. Like I said, it was my initial reaction and I still feel that way. You can reply to this but I won't reply back as I have read many arguments when I was lurking before.

 

 

To this I usually point out the social and cultural realities Mat was brought up in. Could he have beaten Tylin in a fight? Yes. Could he actually fight Tylin... perhaps if she were trying to kill him. She wasn't.

 

Mat, like the wife in the 1950's marital case, had no recourse for denying sex. He couldn't hurt her, and nothing less would have stopped her--and he did try--hence, she abused him--she just included the use of his cultural concepts of gender relations with the knife to do it.

 

in Tylin's defense, Matt wanted it but was just playing hard to get nah, i actually enjoyed reading Matt get what he got with Tylin, with all his womanizing and scoundrel ways.

 

Nah, sorry, show me where Mat forces a woman at knife point. After having his men lock her up in a room. And starving her... lets not forget the starving.

 

Mat enjoys sex. With women who consent. Nowhere does he do anything like this... ever.

 

The whole concept of 'hey, Mat's getting some of his own medicine'. Bull. Absolute bull.

[Erunion]

But that's the thing - it doesn't matter if "Mat still wanted it deep down". He made a choice, and that choice was that he wouldn't sleep with Tylin. That was him exerting his free will, his right and his ability to choose his own actions.

 

And that choice got taken away from him.

 

Yes, he subconsciously was at least a little bit attracted to Tylin, but that doesn't mean he wanted to sleep with her - it means that his body was responsive to Tylin's advances. It does not mean that he wanted to have sex with Tylin 'deep down', it simply meant that his body had a normal physical response to... Certain stimuli.

 

Eventually he got used to it and decided that he couldn't do anything about it (in the meantime) and resigned himself to his fate, eventually even coming to care for Tylin.

This does not mean that he 'secretly wanted it' or that 'deep down it's what he wanted all along'. A more accurate terming of the situation is that he was made into a sex slave by a ruling Queen, and developed a Stockholm Syndrome-like response to Tylin.

 

This is not a good thing, and is not justifiable. Tylin did something that was very, very bad.

So yeah, I really feel sorry for Mat.

[David Selig]

One thing I wonder about the whole situation between Mat and Tylin - did he ever tell her "My best buddy just happen to be the Dragon Reborn (the Aes Sedai I came with can confirm it) and he'd be really pissed off at you for raping me". I don't think he did on screen, I can't understand why. Certainly it would've hurt his pride having to resolve to this, but it's still much better than you know, getting raped...

 

Though with Tylin even that may not have stopped her, since she was a bit weird.

[Luckers]

And so it begins. And thus, I bow out. For anyone interested in my take read my vaguely passive aggressive position in my posts on page six of this thread.

[Sid]

I feel sorry for forum moderators.