Aviendah's next move

[b3arz3rg3r]

1. Maybe she'll gather the Clan Chiefs on her way back to Rand so they, along with the WOs and the Car'a'carn, could talk about what she saw and they could talk about how to prevent that future. (Rand could then tell if any of them are DFs.)

 

Aviendha won't be so unprepared. When she talks to the WO, the Clan Chiefs and Rand about the future of the Aiel she'll arrive with the solutions already prepared. She'll convince them of the new role the Aiel are to take to avert their doom. And it won't be something as weak as peace between them and the Seanchan. That is at best a temporary stopgag, since it doesn't adress the main issue that the Aiel are a people cast adrift after their role in TG is over.

There is a reason why Aiel means Dedicated. The Aiel are a people of fanatics. In the AoL they were fanatics about peace and only when the majority of them died and only unwillingly did they start to change and became fanatics about their warrior culture ji'e'toh. Even their offshots the tuatha'an are as fanatic about their beliefs. That's why they need some great ambition. Some grand concept, some ideal which they can cling to and dedicate their lives to until they are the best at it in the world. I don't have any clue yet what that grand idea will be but it'll be something momentous, something which will keep them busy for a couple of thousand years.

Something like healing the land of the scars the DO left behind or making the desert a green and lush paradise or travelling with a portal stone to another world and colonizing it. Well, the last one is a joke, but something of that kind of magnitude should be expected.

[FarShainMael]

Surely there's a change. He no longer tries to be strong like a weapon or the Three Fold Land or a warrior. He no longer balks at talking women into battle, and he's managed to figure out Toh - which is one half of Aiel life. I'm betting ji would come easy to him.

 

Didn't one of the Aiel in ToM describe Rand as 'truly the Car'a'carn. He has embraced death.'

[Muad Cheade]

Incidentally was the last statement in Padra's PoV as seen by Avi deliberate, or an error by Brandon "The Aiel will ride to war again". It's only 17 years since TG - even if the Aiel are using horses as cavalry, would they actually think in those terms?

It's just a commonly-used phrase. Would you rather him have written "The Aiel run/trot/walk to war again?"

[GB]

as everyone thinks, she has to convince the clan chiefs and WO to be part of the Dragon's Peace, which is the first step.

 

 

but i am not sure if whether or not Aiel are meant to go back to the Way of Leaf after the LB?

[Sharaman]

Incidentally was the last statement in Padra's PoV as seen by Avi deliberate, or an error by Brandon "The Aiel will ride to war again". It's only 17 years since TG - even if the Aiel are using horses as cavalry, would they actually think in those terms?

It's just a commonly-used phrase. Would you rather him have written "The Aiel run/trot/walk to war again?"

It's an AIEL PoV - "The Aiel would wash their spears again" would have been my expectation/preference. Anyway addressed above - it's an error that's bee corrected.

[archer10]

Aviendah knows she must find a purpose for the Aiel after the last battle. She also knows that Rand will not include the Aiel in the Dragon's peace. Here's some things I think she's going to do to solve those issues ... Would be interesting anyway :)

 

1) She gets all of the current Wise Ones and clan leaders to take another trip thru the rings in one night (gateway)

2) With this shared experience, the leaders request that Rand find a future for them, or at least include them in his re-order of the world.

3) Rand considers what the Aiel were and are. He has 400 years of memories of the Aiel during the AOL. He also has his memory of his first trip thru the rings.

4) He remembers what it was to be truly 'Aiel' during the AOL (The singing of the seed songs)

5) We know that the dragon is going to make 'The trees grow and the land bloom' from the prophases.

6) The tinkers also are pressing for their song .....

 

so ...

 

I think Rand is going to take a trip to the EOW to the 'Green Man's' tree and pick up a few acorns. He may have been involved with the Nym's creation during the AOL. If not, he has 400 years of memories of how it was done. With the acorns from the tree, he brings a few Nym back. He then shares the song with the tinkers, Aiel and Nym (spelling). The song strikes a racial chord in all involved. Rand tasks the group of healing the land after the last battle. Just my conjecture.

[Durinax]

Surely there's a change. He no longer tries to be strong like a weapon or the Three Fold Land or a warrior. He no longer balks at talking women into battle, and he's managed to figure out Toh - which is one half of Aiel life. I'm betting ji would come easy to him.

 

Didn't one of the Aiel in ToM describe Rand as 'truly the Car'a'carn. He has embraced death.'

yup one of the WO's

 

Avi's first move will be to the FoM and confront rand, it was hinted at it during tgs when she says I will meet him as an equal bit.

 

besides the AIel are already there. I think Avi will show up late and walk in on the meeting and tell all the leaders what she has seen, and that things must change that peace will lead to the destruction of the Aiel and the westlands as it is known.

[Hotncold]

One theory I've not seen debated here is that maybe all the other wise ones had the same vision Avi did. Perhaps Bair and Amys and all the rest have seen everything Avi saw in Rhuidean and the end of the Aiel is not new to them. Maybe its just new to Avi, and just new to us. Kind of explains why the wise ones are so reserved. They've always had a bit to think about.

[Sharaman]

One theory I've not seen debated here is that maybe all the other wise ones had the same vision Avi did. Perhaps Bair and Amys and all the rest have seen everything Avi saw in Rhuidean and the end of the Aiel is not new to them. Maybe its just new to Avi, and just new to us. Kind of explains why the wise ones are so reserved. They've always had a bit to think about.

Unlikely - Avi only had her vision after doing something new to the pillars and going the opposite way. She also has a rare if not unique Talent for messing with ter'angreal.

[Sid]

I would think the future visions would break more people than the past visions would. Like, just about everyone.

[Mordaunt]

I love that Nym theory - then we can praise Loial as the true hero the story, not that emo "can't pick an emotion" Randhi.

[Coffe_Gurl]

I just read the chapter where Aviendha see's her bloodlines future. It occured to me that her concern was, what had she done to start this journey since she blames her own bloodline?. What stood out most to me was the Aiel have no purpose....The Dragon left them alone to find their own way. I assume this was done because the chief is NOT a ruler and he assumed the Aiel were honorable enough to do the right thing. But Rand dont seem to realize in the AOL the Dragon gave them purpose. When he died their purpose faded and they became warriors...which was needed for the current timeline but other then fighting among themselves what else was there? So after generations of becoming great warriors the Dragon AGAIN will leave them with no purpose. The Aiel were defined in the AOL with their peaceful ways and they are defined now by thier purpose to fight the shadow. They were a people of peace when the times were violent and now they will be a people of violence in a time of peace.....it contradicts too much. My theory is simple....combine the two purposes their people had in history. Rand should place upon them the purpose of these great warriors to defend the Dragon's Peace....and the world against those who would harm those who follow the Dagon's Peace. They would retain their warrior skills while having a purpose....defending people who have sworn to peace, as the Aiel were in the AOL. If they had something like that, the Aiel would have been protected.

As for the Seanchan..Fortuona was almost to the point but they said something happen....non specific...either she was killed or made into damane I think.

 

And I think Aviendha can help Rand understand this.

[TheAngryDruid]

Avidendha has three things she must do, with personal aspects to all of them.

 

1) Most releveant to her current situation: she has to secure a piece fof the Aiel beyond war in the post LB world. To this end, I think she needs to speak to other WO's first, and Rand himself. Possibly Elayne and the Chiefs as well. A trip to Merrilor seems in the offing. Still, she needs to figure out what that place should be.

 

2) Personally, she's a WO know, so she needs to lay a briday wreath at Rands feet. And being Aiel, she needs to have Min accept her as a first-sister as welll. Yes, getting knocked up seems like it is destined to happen.

 

3) Then, she has to do all she can to help Rand and the Light win the LB. Don't know what capacity this will be in, especially if the Aiel go all Leafy. Maybe it will be IDing ter'angrea and angreal to use. Or protecting her near-sister Elayne in Caemlyn.

[DemandredFO]

It will be one of Aviendha's jobs to find DFs because if anyone can resist the DF detector it will be Aiel.

[RandA lThor]

I would say that Aviendha would try to get rand to include the Aiel in his peace treaty. That would be the best way to clean things up and the Aiel would agree if they knew about Aveindha's visions.

 

Also, could the weird aiel spark the idea of war into Aviendha's kids? Just something I thought slightly possible.

[b3arz3rg3r]

My guess is that the new purpose Aviendha will find for the Aiel will have something to do with Singing. There have been plenty of allusions to the ability of the Aiel to sing. It's the one thing aside from their martial progress which makes them special. There has to be some grand goal for the Aiel, something larger in my opinion than just playing dragon police.

 

Bound up in that is the problem of where they'll settle in the future. If they'll just retreat into the Waste they'll fade into insignificance as the rest of the world passes them by and if they settle in the Wetlands as a nation they'll have the trouble of squeezing in and will quickly get into conflict with other people already living there and I'd say after what they went through the last 3,000 years the Aiel deserve to have a good time. So I would find it poetic justice if the Waste turned out to be a hidden paradise. If the Breaking changed the climate a bit and with the Singing able to influence plant growth the Waste could become an actual paradise. That way the Aiel won't get bypassed by progress and not fade away so easily.

[Maleshub]

Her next move is to go back to Amys, Bair, and Melaine and tell them of her experience in Rhuidean. If they believe her or not will determine her next move. One of the saddest moments AMoL can offer is the WO's refusing to heed Aviendha's warning.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Her next move is to go back to Amys, Bair, and Melaine and tell them of her experience in Rhuidean. If they believe her or not will determine her next move. One of the saddest moments AMoL can offer is the WO's refusing to heed Aviendha's warning.

 

Even if those three don't listen that won't stop Aviendha. She is now their equal whether they believe her or not doesn't change that Aviendha is sure of her findings and won't keep her from acting on them. Even on her own she can talk to Rand and in my opinion has at least as good chances of effecting change in his plans for the Aiel as if she had every single living WO behind her.

[Maleshub]

Her next move is to go back to Amys, Bair, and Melaine and tell them of her experience in Rhuidean. If they believe her or not will determine her next move. One of the saddest moments AMoL can offer is the WO's refusing to heed Aviendha's warning.

 

Even if those three don't listen that won't stop Aviendha. She is now their equal whether they believe her or not doesn't change that Aviendha is sure of her findings and won't keep her from acting on them. Even on her own she can talk to Rand and in my opinion has at least as good chances of effecting change in his plans for the Aiel as if she had every single living WO behind her.

 

But even if she succeeds, then only a remnant of a remnant will be saved. For me, better for the Aiel to die in TG than to be obliterated by the Seanchan. I hope that's how the prophecy is fulfilled.

[fionwe1987]

Let's not forget Egwene and the Aes Sedai's role in this. Prophesy says the Aiel will serve the Aes Sedai again. And its not for nothing that RJ/the Pattern made the Amyrlin Seat an Aiel trained, near-daughter to Amys, near-sister to Aviendha, ex-girlfriend to the Car'a'carn, Dreamwalker with an immense personal grudge against the Seanchan who is also tied to the Tinkers...

 

I think Aviendha will reach Merillor to find the rulers of the world firmly behind Egwene in rejecting completely the "Dragon's Peace", which will be the "price" Rand plans to extract from them for going to SG.

 

In the AoL, the Aiel weren't servants of the Aes Sedai but something of a conscience to them. Every Aes Sedai had an Aiel with them, not just for singing, I think, but also because the Aiel and the Concrod with them was a sharp reminder to the Aes Sedai of their role and place in soceity as its most important servants.

 

In the Third Age, it isn't just the Aiel who have fallen from their purpose, but the Aes Sedai too. I think Aviendha and the Aiel will become instrumental in reminding the Aes Sedai (and specifically Egwene) that establishing peace in the world so they can all face the Shadow together is the duty of the Aes Sedai. Egwene has already had thoughts in this direction, but her personal experience with the Seanchan is hard for her to forget. The Aiel will help her with that, reminding her that she must accept even that pain for the greater good of the world.

 

And that will set the stage for the Aiel, I think. Rather than being excluded from the Dragon's Peace, they would have been the people who made it possible. I don't think all Aiel will see things this way, but those that do will end up forming an alliance with the Aes Sedai. They will renounce violence and work with the Aes Sedai (who will very soon get back their Brothers, of course) to restore the world from the damage of the Dark One.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Hmmm, fionwe1987, that is an interesting idea, I like it. It makes sense and would be fitting. I am going to go with you on this one.

 

The only problem I see is that apparently the Aes Sedai agreed to the Dragon's Peace in Avi's vision. However, there could be hundreds of possibilities, and if the Aiel future can be changed, the reason the Aes Sedai and Egwene eventually swear the Dragon's Peace can also be changed to suit the circumstances.

[fionwe1987]

Hmmm, fionwe1987, that is an interesting idea, I like it. It makes sense and would be fitting. I am going to go with you on this one.

 

The only problem I see is that apparently the Aes Sedai agreed to the Dragon's Peace in Avi's vision. However, there could be hundreds of possibilities, and if the Aiel future can be changed, the reason the Aes Sedai and Egwene eventually swear the Dragon's Peace can also be changed to suit the circumstances.

Do we even know what the Aes Sedai did in the future visions? I'm baffled that in it, the Aes Sedai and the Asha'man aren't even mentioned. Yet, if any organization had a reason to resent the Seanchan and the means to wipe them out, it is the Tower...

 

What is important to remember, though, is that Aviendha saw these visions before Rand's epiphany and Egwene's success at the Tower. In the original aMoL, this would probably have come while Egwene was imprisoned in a tiny cell, Rand was among the tinkers, etc. Basically, this would have come right as all the characters were at extreme low points.

 

What happened since has already changed this futre, I think. Take Egwene's deal with the WO and the SF. Per this, the best Aiel channelers must spend time in the Tower and vice versa. That isn't even mentioned in the visions. That entire alliance has the Seanchan threat as the chief motivator. Hardly likely that that had ever happened in the "fake past" of Aviendha's vision.

 

Then consider Egwene's time in TAR just before the Senachan attack. She almost considers, in despair, if she should just permanently split the Tower and start her own faction so she could spend time preparing for the LB instead of the Tower's squabbles. In Aviendha's vision, this may well be what happened, and as Egwene predicted, the Tower would soon have fallen then, and all rulers would have had their own channelers probably. That way, there wouldn't have been a real "White Tower" to oppose to the Dragon's Peace. Egwene may have herself accepted it as a pragmatic necessity (as she yet might), but it may not have larger relevance as the Tower would have been irrevocably broken.

[Suttree]

Then consider Egwene's time in TAR just before the Senachan attack. She almost considers, in despair, if she should just permanently split the Tower and start her own faction so she could spend time preparing for the LB instead of the Tower's squabbles.

 

Hey fionwe, good to see you over here at DM. Could you post a quote for the above. I'm blanking on it for some reason. Cheers.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Her next move is to go back to Amys, Bair, and Melaine and tell them of her experience in Rhuidean. If they believe her or not will determine her next move. One of the saddest moments AMoL can offer is the WO's refusing to heed Aviendha's warning.

 

Even if those three don't listen that won't stop Aviendha. She is now their equal whether they believe her or not doesn't change that Aviendha is sure of her findings and won't keep her from acting on them. Even on her own she can talk to Rand and in my opinion has at least as good chances of effecting change in his plans for the Aiel as if she had every single living WO behind her.

 

But even if she succeeds, then only a remnant of a remnant will be saved. For me, better for the Aiel to die in TG than to be obliterated by the Seanchan. I hope that's how the prophecy is fulfilled.

 

What the WO have been working for is to make sure that the remnant of remnant is as large as possible. All you describe is them giving up and that isn't going to happen.

 

Let's not forget Egwene and the Aes Sedai's role in this. Prophesy says the Aiel will serve the Aes Sedai again. And its not for nothing that RJ/the Pattern made the Amyrlin Seat an Aiel trained, near-daughter to Amys, near-sister to Aviendha, ex-girlfriend to the Car'a'carn, Dreamwalker with an immense personal grudge against the Seanchan who is also tied to the Tinkers...

 

I think Aviendha will reach Merillor to find the rulers of the world firmly behind Egwene in rejecting completely the "Dragon's Peace", which will be the "price" Rand plans to extract from them for going to SG.

 

In the AoL, the Aiel weren't servants of the Aes Sedai but something of a conscience to them. Every Aes Sedai had an Aiel with them, not just for singing, I think, but also because the Aiel and the Concrod with them was a sharp reminder to the Aes Sedai of their role and place in soceity as its most important servants.

 

In the Third Age, it isn't just the Aiel who have fallen from their purpose, but the Aes Sedai too. I think Aviendha and the Aiel will become instrumental in reminding the Aes Sedai (and specifically Egwene) that establishing peace in the world so they can all face the Shadow together is the duty of the Aes Sedai. Egwene has already had thoughts in this direction, but her personal experience with the Seanchan is hard for her to forget. The Aiel will help her with that, reminding her that she must accept even that pain for the greater good of the world.

 

And that will set the stage for the Aiel, I think. Rather than being excluded from the Dragon's Peace, they would have been the people who made it possible. I don't think all Aiel will see things this way, but those that do will end up forming an alliance with the Aes Sedai. They will renounce violence and work with the Aes Sedai (who will very soon get back their Brothers, of course) to restore the world from the damage of the Dark One.

 

I kind of doubt thre rulers will be all that firmly behind Egwene. They will have no choice. Their back is against the wall and Rand can pretty much set whatever price he wants. Besides I doubt Egwene and the Aes Sedai would resist the concept of the Dragon's peace. In fact Egwene might very well support it. What Egwene is trying to oppose Rand on is his timetable on breaking the seals and striking at Shayol Ghul.

And it remains to be seen how well she and the others will be able to stand up to his ta'veren effect.

 

The Aiel won't just from one day to the next completely change their lifestyle. Yes, as the Wheel turns they will one day serve the Aes Sedai again and be sworn to peace, but that day isn't now. Just like we've read plenty of times in the books: Actions fade to legends, legends fade to myths and even myth is long forgotten when the Wheel has turned to the same spot again. Right now the Aiel serving the Aes Sedai is considered a legend- since it happened in the Age of Legends . So before it happens again there are several ages yet to come.

 

Their new purpose will probably in some way set them on the road to becoming what they once were, but this will be a gradual process.

 

Hmmm, fionwe1987, that is an interesting idea, I like it. It makes sense and would be fitting. I am going to go with you on this one.

 

The only problem I see is that apparently the Aes Sedai agreed to the Dragon's Peace in Avi's vision. However, there could be hundreds of possibilities, and if the Aiel future can be changed, the reason the Aes Sedai and Egwene eventually swear the Dragon's Peace can also be changed to suit the circumstances.

Do we even know what the Aes Sedai did in the future visions? I'm baffled that in it, the Aes Sedai and the Asha'man aren't even mentioned. Yet, if any organization had a reason to resent the Seanchan and the means to wipe them out, it is the Tower...

 

What is important to remember, though, is that Aviendha saw these visions before Rand's epiphany and Egwene's success at the Tower. In the original aMoL, this would probably have come while Egwene was imprisoned in a tiny cell, Rand was among the tinkers, etc. Basically, this would have come right as all the characters were at extreme low points.

 

What happened since has already changed this futre, I think. Take Egwene's deal with the WO and the SF. Per this, the best Aiel channelers must spend time in the Tower and vice versa. That isn't even mentioned in the visions. That entire alliance has the Seanchan threat as the chief motivator. Hardly likely that that had ever happened in the "fake past" of Aviendha's vision.

 

Then consider Egwene's time in TAR just before the Senachan attack. She almost considers, in despair, if she should just permanently split the Tower and start her own faction so she could spend time preparing for the LB instead of the Tower's squabbles. In Aviendha's vision, this may well be what happened, and as Egwene predicted, the Tower would soon have fallen then, and all rulers would have had their own channelers probably. That way, there wouldn't have been a real "White Tower" to oppose to the Dragon's Peace. Egwene may have herself accepted it as a pragmatic necessity (as she yet might), but it may not have larger relevance as the Tower would have been irrevocably broken.

 

If those visions didn't show what would happen in the future unless Aviendha intervened in a certain manner those visions are pretty damn well useless. So I doubt that the ter'angreal just what would happen from the low point Rand and Egwene and others may have been in. It is up to Aviendha to do something critical so the ripples of that spread through the future and change many things. If Aviendha gets Tuon to release all captured WO or if she convinces the Aiel to give up those captured WO- they are all Shaido anyway and in my opinion got what they deserved- the Aiel may never go to war with them. And if she can get Rand to give them a new purpose they won't be set adrift and have their spirit deteriorate as was seen in the visions.

 

Oh and the Asha'man and the Tower are mentioned in the visions. They are still separate and the Asha'man are said to fight a guerrilla war after the Black Tower gets destroyed and the White Tower falls in the days of Aviendha's great-great-granddaughter I believe.

[Coffe_Gurl]

I can't see the Aiel that were not taken by the bleakness to swear off on violence. Maybe over generations. And the whole Aiel rediscovering Singing or the Song is doubtful to me. Maybe one or a few will but I was talking about how the Aiel were to avoid being scavengers. And from what I read Aviendha's daughter attacked the Seanchan that did not attack them first. That act seemed to be the official start to the Aiel's downfall. Prior to that they mentioned they were having Talks to free the Aiel and Wise Ones captured but something vauge Happened to Fortuona. This resulted in someone taking her place that would not return the prisoners....not likely Matt since Matt is on good terms with the Aiel.

 

It's not about what bad ass thing she does next. What will be the reason for the Aiel after the Last Battle is. And what is so bad about the Aiel having the purpose of defending people against those who do violence after the Dragon Treaty? It's not like they are rent a cops. They have a strong sence of honor and they hold true to their beliefs even if it brings them physical harm. They would be a perfect type of people to do such a thing. Something like this could have even been foreshadowed in the Shadow Rising when Rhuarc took the knives from Faile and Berlaine because they were violating a rule in the Stone by fighting. I won't look for the exact passage but I know most of you know what this is. He was defending some rule or law of no violence. Later in the series Rand used the Aiel for just that purpose to police the streets. So that's twice Robert Jordan showed the Aiel can be used as a police type of force.

 

And for the person who mentioned the Aiel will serve the Tower again....well that might also point toward the Aiel serving the world as protectors since Egwene wants to get back to the true purpose of the Ajahs. Just because the idea is not some great wonderful outcome for the Aiel its better than what Aviendha saw.