The Dragon Vs. The Amyrlin

[Majsju]

No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy!

 

Field Marshall Helmuth Carl Bernard von Molke

 

Right, And what do you think he meant by that? That it was pointless to make any plans, and everyone should just rush into battle, hoping for the best?

 

Of course not. What he meant was that you should be aware of this fact when you make your plans. Because the more you plan, the better you plan, the better equipped you are to adapt to new circumstances, as long as you are aware that you will need to adapt.

[randsc]

No battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy!

 

Field Marshall Helmuth Carl Bernard von Molke

Which is no excuse for not having one.

[blazetheearth]

Ironic that LTT seemed to be more reasonable back in AOL. He didnt go through with his plan until the access keys were lost and the light was losing the war.

 

Right now he wants to break the seals, start another war of power and figure out what to do from there. Sounds reasonable? i don't think so.

 

If someone was going to war without a plan on how to defeat his enemy, in any situation we would call that person a fool. Simple basic human understanding. But then again, the lord dragon and his followers have long surpassed the boundaries of common sense. It's more like 'Trust me, i know what i am doing right' because i am the saviour and the destined to save the world

 

There is two things here.

 

Rand either does not know or he does know but does not want to say it to egwene. Either way he can't be suprised by egwene's opposition.

 

What's foolish is hiding in your closet when your house in on fire.

 

house on fire? you think breaking the seals and opening the bore is tantamount to extinguishing the flames? jeez.

 

Have you read the books?

 

Breaking the seals and opening the bore IS the only way to extinguish the flames.

 

In any case, hiding in your closet, waiting for someone to develop a fire suppression strategy is a bad survival tactic. Trust me.

 

figuring out a plan, then breaking the seals, then sealing up the bore is the way to extnguish the flames.

 

NOT breaking the seals, opening the bore and figure out the plan later.

 

 

The last time the bore was opened, it led to a full blown war

 

And full-blown war, now, while the Light-siders still have the capacity to fight, is the best available option. There are no good choices on the table; the requirement is to select the least bad.

 

It's not like opening the Bore leads to the immediate destruction of the Universe. How long did the War of Power last?

 

Over 100 years from the time the Original Bore was created up to the Strike at Shayol Ghul. The War of Power itself lasted just over 10-11 years, but the Bore was completely open for over 90 years (during which a variety of violent activities became hobbies) before the Shadow came out in the open. 10 years of actual war. Seals created. That's why I can't figure out why so many characters (especially the WO's) think the Breaking to be such a baaaaaad thing. The world survived over 100 years from the time the Bore was drilled until LTT sealed it again. Destroying the Seals will simply return the DO to the point where the Bore was drilled, not shatter the prison itself. All of the activity and thoughts about the seals seem to imply that the characters think destroying the seals will free the DO, but that is patently untrue, and most of them should know it by now. Maybe not Darlin or Gregorin, but both Eggy and Elayne had plenty of time to question Moggy and if they were so power hungry as to focus solely on learning AOL weaves while ignoring AOL history from one who was there, then they deserve to be left in the dark. I'm not a Rand fan, but even he, while he had access to a Forsaken tutor, bothered to find out what he could about the history of that time (re: city ruins in the Spine).

[moratcorlm]

The world had a much higher level of civilization and a lot further to fall. For instance, we see in TSR26 that seed singing is still producing bountiful food on the day Lews Therin led the strike on Shayol Ghul. In the modern day, there are no Nym, no singing Aiel, and no integration of Ogier, which has the world on the brink of famine. They had shocklances; today's soldiers have ordinary lances. The reality of the Pattern is in now in flux, probably due to Demandred's balefire use, while it was relatively stable in the War of Power after the cessation of balefiring.

 

And if there was no mention of Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve, Siuan, or Leane interrogating Moghedien about the AOL, I'd say it's possible but probably unlikely to have actually happened. When Rand leashed Asmodean his memories were already seeping through, and he seemed to have concentrated his questions on the Forsaken themselves, besides learning about the Power.

[Mandro]

I don't recall the exact question. It was an Indian guy, asking about whether Rand was based on some Indian deity, I don't recall which. I think the exact response, or at least very close, was, "There is some of that, certainly. Rand is in the tradition of Messiah figures broadly." Or something very close.

 

Are we really pretending that the interview database captures Jordan's every word? That's not true, and would be creepy if it was.

pretty much every hero is a messianic character. When the author uses direct references is what makes it interesting. I only see 3 direct markers. Oden, Thor and Tyr.

[Mandro]

random thing, in the end of ToM did everyone notice? (cuz it was obvious) that rand was not only the lightbringer but also he who comes with the dawn as he approaches the armies who support and oppose him?

 

I'm sure it has already been addressed, but I just had to toss that in. "and the sun split the clouds, He is here."

 

Greatperformance.

 

Also, the one hand hiddenis also napoleaonic. Just saying.

 

And since Elayne was ALREADY there, clearly it wasn't Elayne that caused the clouds to split.

No, but they were already thinning in her presence.

 

So Elayne lossened the lid on the jar of pickles for rand to finaly open it? :)

[Mandro]

Ironic that LTT seemed to be more reasonable back in AOL. He didnt go through with his plan until the access keys were lost and the light was losing the war.

 

Right now he wants to break the seals, start another war of power and figure out what to do from there. Sounds reasonable? i don't think so.

 

If someone was going to war without a plan on how to defeat his enemy, in any situation we would call that person a fool. Simple basic human understanding. But then again, the lord dragon and his followers have long surpassed the boundaries of common sense. It's more like 'Trust me, i know what i am doing right' because i am the saviour and the destined to save the world

 

There is two things here.

 

Rand either does not know or he does know but does not want to say it to egwene. Either way he can't be suprised by egwene's opposition.

 

What's foolish is hiding in your closet when your house in on fire.

 

house on fire? you think breaking the seals and opening the bore is tantamount to extinguishing the flames? jeez.

 

Have you read the books?

 

Breaking the seals and opening the bore IS the only way to extinguish the flames.

 

In any case, hiding in your closet, waiting for someone to develop a fire suppression strategy is a bad survival tactic. Trust me.

 

figuring out a plan, then breaking the seals, then sealing up the bore is the way to extnguish the flames.

 

NOT breaking the seals, opening the bore and figure out the plan later.

 

 

The last time the bore was opened, it led to a full blown war

 

And full-blown war, now, while the Light-siders still have the capacity to fight, is the best available option. There are no good choices on the table; the requirement is to select the least bad.

 

It's not like opening the Bore leads to the immediate destruction of the Universe. How long did the War of Power last?

 

Over 100 years from the time the Original Bore was created up to the Strike at Shayol Ghul. The War of Power itself lasted just over 10-11 years, but the Bore was completely open for over 90 years (during which a variety of violent activities became hobbies) before the Shadow came out in the open. 10 years of actual war. Seals created. That's why I can't figure out why so many characters (especially the WO's) think the Breaking to be such a baaaaaad thing. The world survived over 100 years from the time the Bore was drilled until LTT sealed it again. Destroying the Seals will simply return the DO to the point where the Bore was drilled, not shatter the prison itself. All of the activity and thoughts about the seals seem to imply that the characters think destroying the seals will free the DO, but that is patently untrue, and most of them should know it by now. Maybe not Darlin or Gregorin, but both Eggy and Elayne had plenty of time to question Moggy and if they were so power hungry as to focus solely on learning AOL weaves while ignoring AOL history from one who was there, then they deserve to be left in the dark. I'm not a Rand fan, but even he, while he had access to a Forsaken tutor, bothered to find out what he could about the history of that time (re: city ruins in the Spine).

 

I can forgive rand, he was fighting the dual personality and thinking it madness of the taint, and history/memories might have triggered what he thought was madness. Egwene, nynaeve and Elayne and siuan and leanne have no excuses.

[blazetheearth]

 

I can forgive rand, he was fighting the dual personality and thinking it madness of the taint, and history/memories might have triggered what he thought was madness. Egwene, nynaeve and Elayne and siuan and leanne have no excuses.

 

Thank you, that was exactly my point. Rand had Asmo specifically in order to learn to channel and keep the power from killing him but still he manged to ask questions about history, where as the only thing that we see the other 5 ask Moggy about is fancy new weaves. It would seem like if they bothered trying to learn anything about the War of Power and the AOL, we should have seen at least one thought about it from at least one of them by now. Even just a passing sentence, like we had with Rand asking about the city in the mountains, would be enough to allude to information that they could have learned, but instead all we see is them asking about weaves.

[blazetheearth]

The world had a much higher level of civilization and a lot further to fall. For instance, we see in TSR26 that seed singing is still producing bountiful food on the day Lews Therin led the strike on Shayol Ghul. In the modern day, there are no Nym, no singing Aiel, and no integration of Ogier, which has the world on the brink of famine. They had shocklances; today's soldiers have ordinary lances. The reality of the Pattern is in now in flux, probably due to Demandred's balefire use, while it was relatively stable in the War of Power after the cessation of balefiring.

 

And if there was no mention of Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve, Siuan, or Leane interrogating Moghedien about the AOL, I'd say it's possible but probably unlikely to have actually happened. When Rand leashed Asmodean his memories were already seeping through, and he seemed to have concentrated his questions on the Forsaken themselves, besides learning about the Power.

 

I agree that the AOL had further to fall, but well before the War of Power was halfway over, there were as many soldiers using bows and arrows as there were shocklances because the War destroyed the ability to manufacture them. A high level of technology requires a high level of manufacturing to maintain those levels of technology. The Pattern supposedly came into flux when the Bore was drilled, because that is when the DO was able to reach out and touch it. I agree about the famine part though.

 

But nothing you said implies that the destruction of the seals equals doom the way the characters seem to believe. It is still simply returning the DO's prison to the state it was in during the War of Power.

 

On a side note, when do we see Demandred use balefire?

[David Selig]

Moghedien was way more reluctant teacher than Asmodean, who knew Rand was his only chance. Asmo also knew that Rand has some memories from Lews Therin so lying to him about the AoL would've been too risky. If Moghedien was asked about the Age of Legends, she's have most probably lied and Nynaeve and co had really no way to catch her lie since so little remained known about this Age. Asking about weaves made way more sense, since you can test them and see if they work.

[moratcorlm]

On a side note, when do we see Demandred use balefire?

We don't. But this is indicative:

WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?

[...]

“As you command, Great Lord, so shall I obey.”

[...]

THEN LISTEN, AND SERVE. HEAR WHO WILL DIE AND WHO LIVE.

More here.

Matt Hatch

I've always enjoyed this theory about the Lord of Chaos. It's fun. http://bit.ly/fghYSz

Brandon

That is a good theory for people to be reading.

[blazetheearth]

On a side note, when do we see Demandred use balefire?

We don't. But this is indicative:

WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?

[...]

“As you command, Great Lord, so shall I obey.”

[...]

THEN LISTEN, AND SERVE. HEAR WHO WILL DIE AND WHO LIVE.

More here.

Matt Hatch

I've always enjoyed this theory about the Lord of Chaos. It's fun. http://bit.ly/fghYSz

Brandon

That is a good theory for people to be reading.

 

I see what you mean by that but I have to agree with Ozy's comment on that thread in Theoryland. I can buy that the ripples that we saw happen to everyone actually being a form of balescreams, but who or what got balefired to produce it? No cities have gone missing that we know of, and no major characters. No minor character's have really gone "missing" either so I can't see what Dem's been balefiring. I can accept that he has been doing it, but just raises other questions.

[randsc]

I don't recall the exact question. It was an Indian guy, asking about whether Rand was based on some Indian deity, I don't recall which. I think the exact response, or at least very close, was, "There is some of that, certainly. Rand is in the tradition of Messiah figures broadly." Or something very close.

 

Are we really pretending that the interview database captures Jordan's every word? That's not true, and would be creepy if it was.

pretty much every hero is a messianic character. When the author uses direct references is what makes it interesting. I only see 3 direct markers. Oden, Thor and Tyr.

 

Then you are not reading closely enough. The stigmata is a pretty direct reference to Jesus.

[JenniferL]

This is in dire need of an update, but here are all the parallels between WoT and the Bible. http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/151

[Cutlass]

On a side note, when do we see Demandred use balefire?

We don't. But this is indicative:

WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?

[...]

“As you command, Great Lord, so shall I obey.”

[...]

THEN LISTEN, AND SERVE. HEAR WHO WILL DIE AND WHO LIVE.

More here.

Matt Hatch

I've always enjoyed this theory about the Lord of Chaos. It's fun. http://bit.ly/fghYSz

Brandon

That is a good theory for people to be reading.

 

I see what you mean by that but I have to agree with Ozy's comment on that thread in Theoryland. I can buy that the ripples that we saw happen to everyone actually being a form of balescreams, but who or what got balefired to produce it? No cities have gone missing that we know of, and no major characters. No minor character's have really gone "missing" either so I can't see what Dem's been balefiring. I can accept that he has been doing it, but just raises other questions.

 

 

Haven't we heard stories of whole villages vanishing, along with great rocks falling out of the sky, and the dead walking.... rumors Mat was hearing I think. Even just Rands use of Balefire could be causeing untold damage - I always had a thought that the bubbles of evil were a delayed effect of balefire use - we didn't start seeing the bubbles until after we first witnessed balefire (First one was the stone of tear - after Mo. had balefired the darkhounds.... or Be'lal) and even after then ther were always stories of bubbles of evil popping up shortly after something/someone was balefired

[Elan Tedronai]

This is in dire need of an update, but here are all the parallels between WoT and the Bible. http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/151

 

 

yeah so? RJ imported alot of stuff from various mythologies. Naeblis, shaitan and gholam are all arabic terminolgies. the various cultures in randland are based on current and historic races and nations.

 

Does not mean jordan painted rand al thor to be a jesus christ figure.

[capuga]

On a side note, when do we see Demandred use balefire?

We don't. But this is indicative:

WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE, DEMANDRED?

[...]

“As you command, Great Lord, so shall I obey.”

[...]

THEN LISTEN, AND SERVE. HEAR WHO WILL DIE AND WHO LIVE.

More here.

Matt Hatch

I've always enjoyed this theory about the Lord of Chaos. It's fun. http://bit.ly/fghYSz

Brandon

That is a good theory for people to be reading.

 

I see what you mean by that but I have to agree with Ozy's comment on that thread in Theoryland. I can buy that the ripples that we saw happen to everyone actually being a form of balescreams, but who or what got balefired to produce it? No cities have gone missing that we know of, and no major characters. No minor character's have really gone "missing" either so I can't see what Dem's been balefiring. I can accept that he has been doing it, but just raises other questions.

 

 

Haven't we heard stories of whole villages vanishing, along with great rocks falling out of the sky, and the dead walking.... rumors Mat was hearing I think. Even just Rands use of Balefire could be causeing untold damage - I always had a thought that the bubbles of evil were a delayed effect of balefire use - we didn't start seeing the bubbles until after we first witnessed balefire (First one was the stone of tear - after Mo. had balefired the darkhounds.... or Be'lal) and even after then ther were always stories of bubbles of evil popping up shortly after something/someone was balefired

 

Which would explain why Moridin so willing gave Rand the info on how to permanently kill Forsaken in tGS - by balefiring them. He was hoping to encourage its use and further weaken the Pattern.

[randsc]

This is in dire need of an update, but here are all the parallels between WoT and the Bible. http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/151

 

 

yeah so? RJ imported alot of stuff from various mythologies. Naeblis, shaitan and gholam are all arabic terminolgies. the various cultures in randland are based on current and historic races and nations.

 

Does not mean jordan painted rand al thor to be a jesus christ figure.

 

Actually, in the cosmology of tWoT, that's exactly what it means.

 

Everything we see in the books indicated Rand is intended to be an archetypical Messiah figure. That is supported by the repeated public statements of the author.

 

We all understand that you would prefer another character fill that role. Certianly Jordan COULD have written a series with Egwene in the Messiah role. But he didn't. Why does that bother you so much?

[anotherfingolfin]

This is in dire need of an update, but here are all the parallels between WoT and the Bible. http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/151

 

 

yeah so? RJ imported alot of stuff from various mythologies. Naeblis, shaitan and gholam are all arabic terminolgies. the various cultures in randland are based on current and historic races and nations.

 

Does not mean jordan painted rand al thor to be a jesus christ figure.

 

Actually, in the cosmology of tWoT, that's exactly what it means.

 

Everything we see in the books indicated Rand is intended to be an archetypical Messiah figure. That is supported by the repeated public statements of the author.

 

We all understand that you would prefer another character fill that role. Certianly Jordan COULD have written a series with Egwene in the Messiah role. But he didn't. Why does that bother you so much?

 

The Dragon Reborn character draws on various figures of mythic/religious significance. This is a fact. That he is clearly a Messiahnic figure is also a fact. But it would be wrong to make the leap that these parallels are a clear indication that he is a comlete copy of Jesus Christ. As in, it would be wrong to assert that all his personality traits are those of Biblical Christ. It would be foolhardy to suggest that any further course of action could be guessed at by gleaning hints from the story of Jesus.

 

Randsc, when I read your initial post, I did not assume that you meant the Jesus comparison to be so, direct. I think that your major point was that he is clearly Messiahnic, and that his significance in the- for lack of a better word- 'religion' of Randland is as close to a deity/avatar/demi-god as can be. And by making this point, you were showing how his credibility in the eyes of a Randlander, would be un-paralleled (though not neccessarily un-challengable).

Please correct me if I am wrong in my reading of your initial point.

[Elan Tedronai]

This is in dire need of an update, but here are all the parallels between WoT and the Bible. http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/151

 

 

yeah so? RJ imported alot of stuff from various mythologies. Naeblis, shaitan and gholam are all arabic terminolgies. the various cultures in randland are based on current and historic races and nations.

 

Does not mean jordan painted rand al thor to be a jesus christ figure.

 

Actually, in the cosmology of tWoT, that's exactly what it means.

 

Everything we see in the books indicated Rand is intended to be an archetypical Messiah figure. That is supported by the repeated public statements of the author.

 

We all understand that you would prefer another character fill that role. Certianly Jordan COULD have written a series with Egwene in the Messiah role. But he didn't. Why does that bother you so much?

 

 

Listen, i don't give a about egwene playing as you put it as 'the messiah' role. everytime i make a comment about something you gotta bring in egwene this or egwene that. Give me a break. I was'nt even criticising the object of your affections. Jeez.

 

i am just saying as a reader and i have said it so many times i am not feeling this messiah nonsense. If that was RJ intention as you keep claiming time and time again then in my opinion it did not come off. He may have intended it and that's a big if since he designed rand to be more of an arthur figure but if he did want to make rand resemble jesus then it was a poor attempt.

[randsc]

This is in dire need of an update, but here are all the parallels between WoT and the Bible. http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/151

 

 

yeah so? RJ imported alot of stuff from various mythologies. Naeblis, shaitan and gholam are all arabic terminolgies. the various cultures in randland are based on current and historic races and nations.

 

Does not mean jordan painted rand al thor to be a jesus christ figure.

 

Actually, in the cosmology of tWoT, that's exactly what it means.

 

Everything we see in the books indicated Rand is intended to be an archetypical Messiah figure. That is supported by the repeated public statements of the author.

 

We all understand that you would prefer another character fill that role. Certianly Jordan COULD have written a series with Egwene in the Messiah role. But he didn't. Why does that bother you so much?

 

The Dragon Reborn character draws on various figures of mythic/religious significance. This is a fact. That he is clearly a Messiahnic figure is also a fact. But it would be wrong to make the leap that these parallels are a clear indication that he is a comlete copy of Jesus Christ. As in, it would be wrong to assert that all his personality traits are those of Biblical Christ. It would be foolhardy to suggest that any further course of action could be guessed at by gleaning hints from the story of Jesus.

 

Randsc, when I read your initial post, I did not assume that you meant the Jesus comparison to be so, direct. I think that your major point was that he is clearly Messiahnic, and that his significance in the- for lack of a better word- 'religion' of Randland is as close to a deity/avatar/demi-god as can be. And by making this point, you were showing how his credibility in the eyes of a Randlander, would be un-paralleled (though not neccessarily un-challengable).

Please correct me if I am wrong in my reading of your initial point.

 

No, that's exactly right. Rand is a synthesis. But a part of that synthesis is clearly Jesus. Again, Jordan has acknowledged this, even as he mentioned other inspirations.

 

To deny, as Elan does, that this was the author's intent, flies in the face of all the evidence. Whether one, "feels it" or not, this is a Messiah story.

[randsc]

This is in dire need of an update, but here are all the parallels between WoT and the Bible. http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/151

 

 

yeah so? RJ imported alot of stuff from various mythologies. Naeblis, shaitan and gholam are all arabic terminolgies. the various cultures in randland are based on current and historic races and nations.

 

Does not mean jordan painted rand al thor to be a jesus christ figure.

 

Actually, in the cosmology of tWoT, that's exactly what it means.

 

Everything we see in the books indicated Rand is intended to be an archetypical Messiah figure. That is supported by the repeated public statements of the author.

 

We all understand that you would prefer another character fill that role. Certianly Jordan COULD have written a series with Egwene in the Messiah role. But he didn't. Why does that bother you so much?

 

 

Listen, i don't give a about egwene playing as you put it as 'the messiah' role. everytime i make a comment about something you gotta bring in egwene this or egwene that. Give me a break. I was'nt even criticising the object of your affections. Jeez.

 

i am just saying as a reader and i have said it so many times i am not feeling this messiah nonsense. If that was RJ intention as you keep claiming time and time again then in my opinion it did not come off. He may have intended it and that's a big if since he designed rand to be more of an arthur figure but if he did want to make rand resemble jesus then it was a poor attempt.

 

What, you don't like it when someone responds to your every post with an accusation that you just love one character to the point of hero worship? Well, how about that.

 

Are you starting to see, Elan? Are you getting how silly your constant, "Youse jus' love Rand!" crap comes off?

 

I'm glad I could help further your education.

[Mr Ares]

She did plan, she planned to stop him doing something insanely reckless. Waiting too long is a death sentence, but waiting long enough to come up with a plan isn't. It increases your chances of survival.

But, SHE did not come up with an alternative. You seem to agree that we are on a tight timeline here...with reality failing. He asked her to plan. She did not plan on what to do once you break the seals..she planned ONLY on how to stop him.

 

If she had planned how to convince him to stop while contingency planning what to do if he did, I would be FAR more amenable. but, she did not. Which is why she arouses such ire in me.

 

But the chance of success would be increased with a plan of battle, rather than just opening the gates and having everyone charge out willy-nilly, with no clear idea of what is to be done. I'm not saying "the seals should never be broken", I'm saying "breaking the seals with no plan is a huge risk, breaking them with a plan is still risky, but not as risky." Having a plan is less risky than having no plan, therefore they should have a plan.

Agreed that a plan is better. But, the third option, doing nothing, is the worst of all possible options. That is what Egwene is working towards. That is my point.

Egwene is working towards stopping Rand doing something reckless. But she is not working towards doing nothing, she is just not working away from it. She is saying what they shouldn't do while not saying what they should. Of course, Egwene is the Amyrlin, a political figure, while Rand is the Dragon Reborn, a saviour. It is his job to save the world, not hers. He has information she doesn't (such as his answers from the Finns) so while asking for her help makes sense, she cannot take over all the responsibility for planning how to save the world unless he gives her the tools for the task. It is Rand who is failing in his duty here, not Egwene. While her lack of any attempt to come up with her own solution is lamentable, it is not a failure that risks the world. Rand's failure to come up with a decent plan is. Ultimately, it is Rand's job to break the seals, fight TG, and consequently it is Rand's duty, ultimately, to know what he is doing to win at TG. He didn't plan himself, nor did he delegate that job properly. His failure, not hers. Egwene does not look perfect out of all this, but ultimately the main failure here is Rand's.

 

Destroying the Seals will simply return the DO to the point where the Bore was drilled, not shatter the prison itself.

You know this how? It might return the Bore to just before it was Sealed, thus how it was at its widest, thus closest to Shai'tan escaping. We have seen evidence in the books of how fragile reality is, and they don't have another hundred years in all likelihood. They probably don't have one.

[anotherfingolfin]

I think a lot of this debate hinges on the individual reader's perception of how little time remains until the world reaches a point of no-return situation. By which I mean the point at which the light side will be so heavily attrited- in terms of able bodies, food/supplies and will to fight- that any sort of plan would not be enactable.

The constant references to the lack of food and the borderline breakdown of organisation, to me, is the writer trying to reinforce how little time is left. That is what Rand feels, and as no PoV in the text has directly contradicted this, I believe it.

The amount of time you think there is left, should determine whether you think there is ample time to plan, or if you think that they need to make the best of what they know and try and wing it the rest of the way.

Anyhow, I believe that the fact that there is a month between his decleration to Egwene and FoM is indication that he is not oblivious to the merits of preperation - I mean if he was really just beign rash, then why wait?

[MasterAblar]

You guys are looking at this wrong.

 

For a denizen of Randland, this isn't a debate between two characters, or two political figures, or two random people from the same small village.

 

This is a debate between the living embodiment of their metaphysics (a metaphysics they KNOW to be true, objectively, not just believe to be true) and the head of a very important but decidedly earthly institution.

 

This is a debate, in essence, about how to defeat Satan. And the two players are the Second Coming of Jesus, and the Pope.

 

Now, if you KNEW, objectively, from you own observation, that Christian metaphysics were TRUE. If you KNEW that that fellow over there really was the Son of God, returned to save the world from Satan. If this weren't a question of belief, but one of objective truth...

 

Would you line up with Jesus, or with Pope Benedict?

Well, if the Pope asked Jesus what his plan was to defeat Satan, and Jesus admitted he didn't have one, and hoped things would work out for the best, and the Pope said that maybe he should wait until he had a plan, I would admit the Pope had a point and side with him.

 

 

Hello everyone this is my first post so hopefully it won't be too bad. I would side with Rand. There are some valid points on the other side of the debate, but in the end it comes down to trusting the man destined to save the world or not. He was literally born to do this. In addition, he has access to his past life and greater knowledge. This is a war and every war needs a leader. You can debate, but eventually you have to act and in a unified matter so I would side with the Dragon.

 

Also, if I remember correctly, breaking the seals will not fully release the Dark One. Even when the seals were first placed on the Bore, he was not free. I think that removing the seals would leave him at that point. Sure he will have more direct influence, but he would still not be free. The seals are failing anyway. Soon, they will not work. Like it was said before on here it is better to fight at a time of your choosing.

While it is Rand's job to save the world, he is not all-knowing, still less is he infallible. It is not unreasonable to expect him to come up with a plan first. Leaders often do come up with plans, you know. As for fighting at a time of your choosing, look at it this way: you're under siege, your castle needs repairs done on the walls. You decide to tear them down (and it has to be done during the siege), but you admit you don't have a damn clue as to how to stop the enemy hordes flooding through the gap you've just created in your defences. Bad. Come up with a plan to hold them at bay before demolishing the wall. Good. Choosing when to fight is one thing, but you must also look at how to fight, and do so before the fight begins. Rand has chosen a when, but it still stumbling around in the dark for the how. Egwene is saying come up with a how.

 

 

I dont disagree with this reasoning.

 

But since when was Egwene "saying come up with a how"?

 

All she has been doing is saying, You cant do this.

 

Not, explain it to me. Nor, come up with a plan.

 

As readers, of course we want Rand comming up with a plan, that would be the wisest course.

 

But nowwhere does Egwene even think, "give me a plan and i will agree"

 

All she is doing is saying. "You cant break the seals". Even if Rand DID have a plan, she still opposes it.

 

It seems people are comming up with sensible arguements for Rand to wait and come up with a plan, and saying that is what Egwene is doing. She is not, that is what we as a reader think, not Egwene. So you cant attribute that to her.

 

Heh. To pull a quote from TOM...

"We must talk about this," she said. "Plan."

 

Does not really get much more plain than that.

 

I think you're taking that phrase out of context. Egwene is responding to when Rand says:

"A risk we must take. Clear away the rubble. The bore must be opened fully before it can be sealed."

The risk being breaking the seals. So the entire argument here is about the breaking of the seals which Egwene deemed too dangerous if not just plain insane. I don't think she once in the entire book says she opposes Rand because he has no plan with regards to how he would reseal the bore. She has no reason to think he would not have a plan. All Rand told her was:

"I believe that saidin and saidar must both be used. I don't have the answers yet."

Him saying "yet" would imply that he means to find the answers, at least as far as Egwene knows. There's also what she says to Elayne and Nynaeve:

"Yes, but the seals? That's foolhardy. Surely Rand can face the Dark One, and defeat him, and seal him away without taking that risk."

She never questions his ability or his knowledge about resealing the Dark One, only the necessity of breaking the seals. That is what she appears to be opposed to, at least to me.