Discuss Lan/Defense of the Blight Border

[Luckers]

Go.

[RahulSingh]

Lan's got too much of a sense of honor in him... 12,000 borderlanders vs 150,000 Trollocs? Someone should take him aside and tell him to fight in a way that kills more trollocs rather than just charging his army into them.

[Neeros]

Lan's got too much of a sense of honor in him... 12,000 borderlanders vs 150,000 Trollocs? Someone should take him aside and tell him to fight in a way that kills more trollocs rather than just charging his army into them.

 

I am holding out for Rand/Nynaeve/Moraine link to pop in mid-battle with Callandor and destroy all the shadow spawn just in time to save Lan from getting sliced up by 5 Myyrdral.

 

I think that was Nynaeves plan, or similar anyway from the moment she dropped Lan off at the Borderlands.

[fborch]

Aye, I'm predicting some sort of last stand close to failing, only to be saved by Nynaeve++ Most likely Rand as well

[GB]

i am not sure about rand going in personally to help Lan.

 

he will send help though if he hasnt already.

 

and i would love to see Nynaeve making a speech, and provided the Bordelanders monarchs go to the Fields of Merrilor, then they would be the one to go to the gap after that speech with a number of aes sedai, ashaman . that will be chance to see egwnene finally redeeming the aes sedai not going in to help Malkier before.

[mikael]

Lets hope they are overrun by shadow spawn so that the shadow spawn can spread out all over Randland.

[WhiskyJack]

^^And that will do what?

[NetSlider]

I think borderlanders will come through gateways popping up all over the place. Are borderlanders at the FoM with Rand (I don't recall)?

[nleseul]

Lan's got too much of a sense of honor in him... 12,000 borderlanders vs 150,000 Trollocs? Someone should take him aside and tell him to fight in a way that kills more trollocs rather than just charging his army into them.

 

At least it's better than charging at 150,000 Trollocs all by his lonesome?

[NetSlider]

Lan's got too much of a sense of honor in him... 12,000 borderlanders vs 150,000 Trollocs? Someone should take him aside and tell him to fight in a way that kills more trollocs rather than just charging his army into them.

 

At least it's better than charging at 150,000 Trollocs all by his lonesome?

 

But it would be pretty cool if he was. Than all of the sudden when he just about to close ranks with Trolocs gateways open behind him and 250,000 borderlanders charge right with him. Would be a really cool movie scene!

[Sentinel78]

Lan's adopting the Weiramon school of thought regarding warfare; no matter what, just charge.

[anotherfingolfin]

Lan has to decide if he just wants to commit suicide, or if he actually wants to contribute towards defeating the shadow. Had he, as originally planned, gone off by his lonesome and not as part of an army, what would he have achieved? Did he plan to charge 150k+ shadowspan by himself? If by some incredibly mat-ish stroke of luck, he avoided getting riddled with arrows, he would have closed the gap and done what? Kill two trollocs before dying? As noble as this whole thing seemed, I think he was being idiotic.

And now, he has an army, and are you serious? Let's all just charge? I don't think ANYBODY, no matter how little they might understand military tactics, will not find it utterly foolish. I'm hoping I misunderstood that scene, or maybe that BS wrote it and it isn't his strongest suit. Ugh.

There had better be some dramatically awesome deus ex machina stuff about to happen soon, or otherwise we are gonna have 20k boderlanders and their indigestibly incompetent leader in trolloc cookpots very soon.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Lan has to decide if he just wants to commit suicide, or if he actually wants to contribute towards defeating the shadow. Had he, as originally planned, gone off by his lonesome and not as part of an army, what would he have achieved? Did he plan to charge 150k+ shadowspan by himself? If by some incredibly mat-ish stroke of luck, he avoided getting riddled with arrows, he would have closed the gap and done what? Kill two trollocs before dying? As noble as this whole thing seemed, I think he was being idiotic.

And now, he has an army, and are you serious? Let's all just charge? I don't think ANYBODY, no matter how little they might understand military tactics, will not find it utterly foolish. I'm hoping I misunderstood that scene, or maybe that BS wrote it and it isn't his strongest suit. Ugh.

There had better be some dramatically awesome deus ex machina stuff about to happen soon, or otherwise we are gonna have 20k boderlanders and their indigestibly incompetent leader in trolloc cookpots very soon.

 

Narg love odor of Lan-kabobs in the morning!

[Sharaman]

Given the timelines I'm assuming Rand has already sorted out the Tarwin's Gap situation before he comes to Field of Merrilor.

AMoL will probably skip backwards and show that arc from Lan's PoV or Nyn's, thereby confusing everybody further.

[Exy]

Lan has to decide if he just wants to commit suicide, or if he actually wants to contribute towards defeating the shadow.

This. I don't see committing suicide right on the eve of Tarmon Gai'don as all that honorable. And moreso since he has a wife and all.

[nleseul]

The thing is, weren't the odds against the Borderlanders in the battle at Tarwin's Gap in TEotW pretty terrible too, until Rand showed up and zapped all the Trollocs? It seems like fighting at Tarwin's Gap against incredible odds is just what the Borderlanders have been doing for centuries.

 

Presumably, the Gap is also pretty favorable terrain for defenders, which may negate a lot of the advantage the Trollocs gain from numbers anyway. It may not be as ridiculous a stand as it sounds just based on the size of the forces.

[Erunion]

The thing is, weren't the odds against the Borderlanders in the battle at Tarwin's Gap in TEotW pretty terrible too, until Rand showed up and zapped all the Trollocs? It seems like fighting at Tarwin's Gap against incredible odds is just what the Borderlanders have been doing for centuries.

 

Presumably, the Gap is also pretty favorable terrain for defenders, which may negate a lot of the advantage the Trollocs gain from numbers anyway. It may not be as ridiculous a stand as it sounds just based on the size of the forces.

 

This.

 

Tarwin's gap is a gap. A mountain pass, and a reasonably wide/flat one. Now, the borderlanders have excellent heavy cavalry. The Trollocs are heavy foot, low on pikes but high on numbers/individual size. When heavy cavalry face heavy foot on flat terrain with cliff/mountain borders, you charge. There's not a heck of a lot else you can do. If you stand your ground, the enemy will charge you giving them the advantage in momentum while negating the mobility and strength of your heavy horsemen. An army like the band of the red hand, heavy on pikes and crossbows, could stand their ground and hold, but when you have an army of heavy cavalry your only real option is all out charge.

A full on charge of heavy cavalry will inflict the most damage of any of the tactics available to Lan. As this is a gap, it is likely that the front lines will be about 1000 trollocs wide. This means that Lan's forces will be able to hold the gap, by charging, pulling back, reforming and charging again in a rotating fashion (first 2000 charge, pull back and reform as the next 2000 charge and so on). The gap will prevent the trollocs from really benefiting from their overwhelming numbers, and allow the humans to fight for a good day or so before being completely overwhelmed.

Of course, the wider the gap, the worse the situation for the light. Does anyone know how wide Tarwin's gap is?

[Exy]

The thing is, weren't the odds against the Borderlanders in the battle at Tarwin's Gap in TEotW pretty terrible too, until Rand showed up and zapped all the Trollocs? It seems like fighting at Tarwin's Gap against incredible odds is just what the Borderlanders have been doing for centuries.

 

Presumably, the Gap is also pretty favorable terrain for defenders, which may negate a lot of the advantage the Trollocs gain from numbers anyway. It may not be as ridiculous a stand as it sounds just based on the size of the forces.

It was still pretty ridiculous when it was just him, though.

[nleseul]

It was still pretty ridiculous when it was just him, though.

 

It might work, if the Gap was really really narrow?

[Erunion]

Yeah, Lan's whole one-man army idea was dumb.

My guess is that the pattern needed Lan to go north/etc, so it gave Lan a die-fighting-shadow imperative.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Gap width is unknown.

 

Rand pulled the mountainsides down on the last Trolloc army that tried to make its way through there. Unless Agelmar found a fleet of bulldozers and scrapers it should no longer be good ground for cavalry.

[AutomatedTeller]

I really don't know what will happen.

 

On the one hand, we have the "Nynaeve defies the White Tower" potential plot, as set up by her raising

On the other hand, we have the "Nynaeve makes an impassioned plea to the White Tower to make up for not coming to Malkier's aid in time before" potential plot.

 

Either makes for good story.

 

They might combine... Nynaeve makes an impassioned plea, gets nowhere, defies the Tower and goes to die with Lan... and then Sharina says something that shames them all into going to help.

[smileyman]

 

Tarwin's gap is a gap. A mountain pass, and a reasonably wide/flat one. Now, the borderlanders have excellent heavy cavalry. The Trollocs are heavy foot, low on pikes but high on numbers/individual size. When heavy cavalry face heavy foot on flat terrain with cliff/mountain borders, you charge. There's not a heck of a lot else you can do. If you stand your ground, the enemy will charge you giving them the advantage in momentum while negating the mobility and strength of your heavy horsemen. An army like the band of the red hand, heavy on pikes and crossbows, could stand their ground and hold, but when you have an army of heavy cavalry your only real option is all out charge.

A full on charge of heavy cavalry will inflict the most damage of any of the tactics available to Lan. As this is a gap, it is likely that the front lines will be about 1000 trollocs wide. This means that Lan's forces will be able to hold the gap, by charging, pulling back, reforming and charging again in a rotating fashion (first 2000 charge, pull back and reform as the next 2000 charge and so on). The gap will prevent the trollocs from really benefiting from their overwhelming numbers, and allow the humans to fight for a good day or so before being completely overwhelmed.

Of course, the wider the gap, the worse the situation for the light. Does anyone know how wide Tarwin's gap is?

 

With a force of infantry behind the calvary so when the calvary get worn out they can retreat behind the infantry and rest up.

[smileyman]

Gap width is unknown.

 

Rand pulled the mountainsides down on the last Trolloc army that tried to make its way through there. Unless Agelmar found a fleet of bulldozers and scrapers it should no longer be good ground for cavalry.

 

Whether or not the actual gap is still around there'll be a nice wide open space in front of it, so you can use the same tactics as if the Gap was still there.

 

I just read the scene again--Rand doesn't pull down the mountains.

 

"He bruised his hands on the stony soil, and the earth trembled. Ripples ran through the ground ahead of him in ever-rising waves, waves of dirt and rock towering over Trollocs and Fades, breaking over them as the mountains shattered under their hooved feet."

 

After that was done the ground was still plenty flat enough for the assembled armies to charge "Through the mist, as sfrom the far end of the earth, came a cry. "The Light wills it!" The ground rumbled with the thunder of hooves as the forces humankind launched their last charge."

[Charlz Guybon]

Lan's got too much of a sense of honor in him... 12,000 borderlanders vs 150,000 Trollocs? Someone should take him aside and tell him to fight in a way that kills more trollocs rather than just charging his army into them.

I thought it was pretty moronic. By far the more logical decision for him to make would be to take his men to Fal Dara and help it hold out, forcing that army to besiege it rather than to move deeper into Shienar.