Discuss Egwene

[Barid Bel Medar]

As Hadilmir pointed out, Egwene is most likely Latra reborn.

 

I don't necessarily see why Egwene has to specifically be Latra reborn. Their roles will roughly be the same but the soul doesn't have to be. I find this almost an annoying a suggestion as Elayne being Ilyena Moerelle reborn .

 

Now your argueing for areguments sake . You know what I mean. Their roles are basically exactly the same ATM, but this time they need to work together. THe rest is jsut semantics about whether or not she is Latra reborn. thats not the point, and you know it.

[Jon Paul]

I dont see how that is wrong? Women and men need to work together to win yes? Rand is her equal yes? It doesnt degrade her, nor lower her status. So i dont see why Egwene lovers would feel the need to defend her when its just something she needs to realize.

 

If anything, her legion of neo-feminist Gestapo.. I mean her fans.. should be more than happy with this. You're placing Egwene on equal footing with the person Creation its self has chosen to be it's saviour .

 

Now your argueing for areguments sake . You know what I mean. Their roles are basically exactly the same ATM, but this time they need to work together. THe rest is jsut semantics about whether or not she is Latra reborn. thats not the point, and you know it.

 

Why.. I have never.. never.. been more insulted in my life!

 

!

[Hadilmir]

That's correct. I couldn't remember the name, and didn't feel like looking it up.

 

Understandable, given the near 2,000 characters...

 

 

Barid, I can't help but read your partially capitalized posts as the Dark One's voice crackling in and out of its ominous tone.

 

Durinax, I know you've been waiting all day for that post. Since I promised never to agree with you a long time ago I'll just say that I may or may not agree with your statement.

 

 

*In the interest of not losing my appearance as a devoted Egwene fan, I'll rant about everyone's criticisms of her-

 

1. Egwene is not a terrible person

2. Egwene obviously is quite intelligent to have made it this far

3. Egwene will see reason when/if Rand lays the smackdown on her explains his reasoning to her

 

1 + 2 = 3, it's math, people...

 

 

**The fact that the above annotation is not a rant has been noted and discarded out of apathy.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I dont see how that is wrong? Women and men need to work together to win yes? Rand is her equal yes? It doesnt degrade her, nor lower her status. So i dont see why Egwene lovers would feel the need to defend her when its just something she needs to realize.

 

If anything, her legion of neo-feminist Gestapo.. I mean her fans.. should be more than happy with this. You're placing Egwene on equal footing with the person Creation its self has chosen to be it's saviour .

 

Now your argueing for areguments sake . You know what I mean. Their roles are basically exactly the same ATM, but this time they need to work together. THe rest is jsut semantics about whether or not she is Latra reborn. thats not the point, and you know it.

 

Why.. I have never.. never.. been more insulted in my life!

 

!

 

Hahaha. My apologies sir.

 

To your first point. I agree, I was being generous. IN actual fact, Rand is FAR above Egwene now, but I dont see the need to destroy her character completely. Her accepting Rand as an equal seems generous. I just dont see why its so hard for Egwene fans to accept. Now I dont want to point any fingers or question personal motivations nor offend anyone, but being a diehard female chauvinist seems the only way to reason Egwene trying to dominate Rand at this point. Which, like Male chauvinism is wrong.

[Barid Bel Medar]

That's correct. I couldn't remember the name, and didn't feel like looking it up.

 

Understandable, given the near 2,000 characters...

 

 

Barid, I can't help but read your partially capitalized posts as the Dark One's voice crackling in and out of its ominous tone.

 

Durinax, I know you've been waiting all day for that post. Since I promised never to agree with you a long time ago I'll just say that I may or may not agree with your statement.

 

Hahaha, nice one. I AM Demandred, it kinda caught on when he was all like. DEMANDRED. HOW FARES THE WORLD.

[Darth Krewl]

Yes, I agree, that seems likely.

 

I also find it strange how all the "Egwene lovers" automatically react to her faults being pointed out as people want to see her pulled down, humiliated and punished.

 

Thats not (at least I) want to see. She doesnt need to be humiliated nor her position taken or degraded. All she needs to do is take a step down and be a bit more humble (like Rand has just done) and admit equality between men and women channelers and work together as equals. She needs to stop trying to dominate Rand and trying to "force her hand" and accept him as her equal and work with him. Together, the Dragon and Amyrlin can be a very powerful team. But first she needs to stop thinking about controlling and getting him to do what the women (Aes Sedai) want him to.

 

I dont see how that is wrong? Women and men need to work together to win yes? Rand is her equal yes? It doesnt degrade her, nor lower her status. So i dont see why Egwene lovers would feel the need to defend her when its just something she needs to realize.

 

Exactly.

 

IMO, Egwene's journey has been used to illustrate how Aes Sedai become so filled with blind pride and arrogance, that they literally feel as if they're the center of the universe, while passage after passage has shown us that they are not doing a good job of keeping up with the changing o' the times in their world and that they have been surpassed in many ways by many other factions of channelers.

 

I've read many comments here saying that Egwene will have the AS ready for the next Seanchan attack, but I just don't see how that'll be possible, even if she does have them preparing themselves. Now, when did she find the time to do that? I honestly don't know, 'cause it seems to me like she had her plate full already with setting up Mesaana, gathering support against Rand and planning future alliances between the Tower and other factions of female channelers.

 

On the other hand, we only had one single chapter on Fortuona and the Seanchan and the only thing on their mind right now is the complete destruction of the White Tower and having all those "Marath'damane" collared. Now, this is no mistake or plot hole by Sanderson. It is by design; the author(s) way of showing us how one party is busy with so many things that they're not gonna be ready, while the other party is hell-bent on conducting their attack.

 

Again, that should be grievous enough to humble Egwene and make her recheck her priorities. No, she's not all-powerful. No, she's not invicible. And finally, no, her every decision's not as smart as her supporters would like think. And yes, she does need to understand that she doesn't stand above the Dragon Reborn and that she must respect him and learn to work hand in hand with him.

 

EDIT: I'm not as generous as you, to put her on Rand's level, Barid...and I know that's gonna put me on the spot with, what was it that Jon Paul called it? Her neo-feminist gestapo...hahaha! Right! :-P

[heliage]

 

Egwene could trust Nynaeve, she just didnt want to. That would mean Rand was right, and she is wrong. So she puts it down to Taveren. In her mind, breaking the seals IS maddness, as an 18yo girl, she is terrified of letting the DO free (and rightly so). She is trying to hang on to what she thinks is hope by refusing to believe. In retrospect its a bit silly, but human, and I dont think anyone can fault anyone for that. If someone said im going to lock you in a room with a crazed murderer (the DO) and then let him free from his chains so you can fight him, you would be damn scared, whether it is the right thing to do or not, anyone would want to avoid that scenario

 

Sort of, but really,

(using same scenario)

It's like having the crazed murderer on chains that have acid that's breaking the chains slowly. Your locked in the room without food and you can either let him free and fight while your strong, or wait until the acid breaks the chains and you'll be weaker from starving.

And think of the acid as something that if you try to repair the chains without first destroying them, the acid will then infect the new hold. Even if you said, "replace each of the ends of the chain that connects to the wall and reinforce that. The middle of the chain is still going to break from the acid.

Basically Rand is just saying, clear the acidic chains, they will fault whatever reinforcement we do. Fight him while we are still strong and reattach the murderer to the wall with a new method.

If Egwene thought about it, she should see sense.

 

Hoping Elayne when she's closer to Rand realizes that his completely sane as Min has and accepts his decision, and then Elayne helps convince Egwene.

 

Edit: Yeh sure your going to be scared about letting him go. But you know you get to chose when you let him go and know that you have the best chance that you will have to win is when your strong (maybe not straight away as you have to come up with a plan, but not when your weak from starvation).

[Hopefire]

Right now, I have Cadsuane pegged as the one to talk to Egwene. What it boils down to for me is that of all the people in the world that Egwene would respect, Cadsuane is least likely to be intimidated. Especially after spending the last few months chasing after an increasingly insane, unstable and evil DarkRand. It's been mentioned several times that Cadsuane has paddled the bottom of people of importance that deserve it, and my hope is that she gives Egwene a good sound spanking. It'd be funny to read.

 

 

Along the same lines, if I'm not mistaken, Egwene doesn't know about the relationship Rand has with Elayne, Min and Aviendha. Nynaeve does, obviously, and Egwene knows about Elayne, but I don't recall Egwene finding out about Min and Aviendha. I'd absolutely love a scene taking place the evening that Rand arrives for the meeting, where Egwene sees Rand with Min or her spies find that out, and assumes that Rand is cheating on Elayne. And then a scene with Elayne and Aviendha where Egwene, in an outraged way, tells Elayne that Rand is cheating on her with Min. Followed by Elayne not being concerned or jealous, followed by Egwene almost swallowing her tongue, followed by Aviendha casually throwing it out there that she loves Rand al'Thor as well, and the three women's relationship with Rand is none of Egwene's business.

 

Followed by much spluttering on the part of Egwene, and a little bit of helpless giggling on the part of Nynaeve.

[randsc]

If Egwene actually has the Tower prepared for the Seanchan attack, and the Aes Sedai successfully fend off that attack, I may have to throw out the books.

 

I don't care if she instituted a massive crash training program the day she was raised (and I really doubt that if she did, it would have remained entirely off-screen). The Seanchan have been preparing for this for centuries.

 

The only thing that can save the Tower from a Seanchan attack is if one or more of the people they would not expect to see in Tar Valon (Mat, Setelle, Eagenan) stop them.

[anotherfingolfin]

If Egwene actually has the Tower prepared for the Seanchan attack, and the Aes Sedai successfully fend off that attack, I may have to throw out the books.

 

I don't care if she instituted a massive crash training program the day she was raised (and I really doubt that if she did, it would have remained entirely off-screen). The Seanchan have been preparing for this for centuries.

 

The only thing that can save the Tower from a Seanchan attack is if one or more of the people they would not expect to see in Tar Valon (Mat, Setelle, Eagenan) stop them.

 

I really find it unlikely that we will see another intense Seanchan vs. the tower. It's happened once, in great detail, and was pivotal. I don't think it will happen again, especially considering, RJ intended it all to be in the SAME book. Sure, I think an attack might happen, but it will not be resolved by the two parties, an outside factor will make the difference; and I don't think we will have a tactical winner.

[Shob]

Personaly I believe that Rand made Egwene deliberately angry. He wants her to be angry with him. And not just so she would gather the armies for him. There is something more.

Elaida foretold that Rand "will face the wrath of the Amyrilin". That is yet to happen. And also we know that Rand will break the seals. Egwene actually predicted that herself in her dreams.

 

I will make bold prediction and say that Rand wants Egwene (or her allies) to kill him at some point. Perhaps he knows that the way he plans to seal the bore/defeat the DO will corrupt him to such a degree that he will become great danger to the world. Something like that.

[Aquarius]

I will make bold prediction and say that Rand wants Egwene (or her allies) to kill him at some point. Perhaps he knows that the way he plans to seal the bore/defeat the DO will corrupt him to such a degree that he will become great danger to the world. Something like that.

Good idea.

 

other idea:

He wants to be killed at the Fields of Merilor by Egwene & co so that his soul go back to TAR as any hero does. THERE he can find the ACTUAL seals (and not the "focus points for the seals" and break them. Just like Perrin destroys the Dreamspike in TAR.

[blazetheearth]

I will make bold prediction and say that Rand wants Egwene (or her allies) to kill him at some point. Perhaps he knows that the way he plans to seal the bore/defeat the DO will corrupt him to such a degree that he will become great danger to the world. Something like that.

Good idea.

 

other idea:

He wants to be killed at the Fields of Merilor by Egwene & co so that his soul go back to TAR as any hero does. THERE he can find the ACTUAL seals (and not the "focus points for the seals" and break them. Just like Perrin destroys the Dreamspike in TAR.

 

I can believe either one of these, but have one problem with them. AS in the AoL (including LTT) did not believe in the Horn's power as such, until during the Breaking (after LTT died) when they sent it to the Eye because of a Foretelling. So I can't see how Rand (even with LTT's memories) could know for a fact that he is a HotH. And with the second idea, I have to ask how does he know that HotH reside in TAR? Rand says he remembers all his lives, but he doesn't say anything about in-between lives.

 

13th Depository essay on the Horn and it does cite the reference for LTT not knowing about the Horn.

[Darth Krewl]

If Egwene actually has the Tower prepared for the Seanchan attack, and the Aes Sedai successfully fend off that attack, I may have to throw out the books.

 

I don't care if she instituted a massive crash training program the day she was raised (and I really doubt that if she did, it would have remained entirely off-screen). The Seanchan have been preparing for this for centuries.

 

The only thing that can save the Tower from a Seanchan attack is if one or more of the people they would not expect to see in Tar Valon (Mat, Setelle, Eagenan) stop them.

 

I really find it unlikely that we will see another intense Seanchan vs. the tower. It's happened once, in great detail, and was pivotal. I don't think it will happen again, especially considering, RJ intended it all to be in the SAME book. Sure, I think an attack might happen, but it will not be resolved by the two parties, an outside factor will make the difference; and I don't think we will have a tactical winner.

 

Actually, the parts in bold indicate that the both of you are saying the same exact thing. The intervention of Mat, Setalle and Egeanin would be precisely an outside factor making the difference. As for the actual attack, it doesn't have to be described in full detail onscreen. It could very well happen off-screen, with Egwene getting word that the Tower is under Seanchan attack/control while she's away at the Fields of Merrilor.

 

IMO, the tning is that the White Tower has become obsolete. Now that men can channel just the same as women, now that many other factions of female channelers (some of them as powerful or knowledgeable as Aes Sedai themselves) have emerged, the White Tower has become more of a hindrance to the efforts of the Light rather than offering any actual help.

 

Because all they have been doing for about half the series now is interfere with Rand's efforts and squabble amongst themselves, instead of doing anything for the Light (except for Nynaeve, who had actually been acting on her own, till Egwene summoned her for that brutal and unnecessary trial at the Tower).

 

The books make it clear that, of all channeling factions, the Aes Sedai (and the Kin by extension) are the only ones who have been actively trying to impose their will on the Dragon Reborn or opposing him outright (thought that would've ended when Elaida was gone but Egwene's been even worse than her predecessor in this sense).

 

The Wise Ones of the Aiel have acknowledged him as their Cara'cam. The Sea Folk recognize him as their Coramoor. And this doesn't mean that either faction follow him blindly or haven't made their terms perfectly clear, it only means that those factions have understood the meaning of their respective prophecies and are acting accordingly. Meantime, the Aes Sedai are the only ones who are failing to see the meaning of their prophecies and are yet to understand the role they have to play during the Last Battle.

 

IMO, this is the very core of the issue: Aes Sedai arrogance vs. good judgment, stubbornly holding on to the past vs. swallowing their pride and accepting the changes that the rebirth of the Dragon has brought. This doesn't mean Egwene must jump when Rand says toad. Only that she should understand that she's not supposed to be the hero of prophecy who leads the Dragon Reborn by the hand, but the other way around. She's not the Chosen One, he is.

 

At this point, the only ones making waves are these drama queens known as Aes Sedai and their precocious, teen leader. This is necessary for Egwene to see reason and the girl is up for a very harsh reality check, which IMO, has already been laid out and more than hinted at by both authors for a long while.

 

So, IMO, the attack is not only coming and Aes Sedai won't be able to fend it off this time (on or off-screen), but for the good of all, it is imperative that all the rubble and rubbish getting in the way of full cooperation and mutual respect amongst all channelers is removed and right now, that's what the White Tower has become.

[anotherfingolfin]

If Egwene actually has the Tower prepared for the Seanchan attack, and the Aes Sedai successfully fend off that attack, I may have to throw out the books.

 

I don't care if she instituted a massive crash training program the day she was raised (and I really doubt that if she did, it would have remained entirely off-screen). The Seanchan have been preparing for this for centuries.

 

The only thing that can save the Tower from a Seanchan attack is if one or more of the people they would not expect to see in Tar Valon (Mat, Setelle, Eagenan) stop them.

 

I really find it unlikely that we will see another intense Seanchan vs. the tower. It's happened once, in great detail, and was pivotal. I don't think it will happen again, especially considering, RJ intended it all to be in the SAME book. Sure, I think an attack might happen, but it will not be resolved by the two parties, an outside factor will make the difference; and I don't think we will have a tactical winner.

 

Actually, the parts in bold indicate that the both of you are saying the same exact thing. The intervention of Mat, Setalle and Egeanin would be precisely an outside factor making the difference. As for the actual attack, it doesn't have to be described in full detail onscreen. It could very well happen off-screen, with Egwene getting word that the Tower is under Seanchan attack/control while she's away at the Fields of Merrilor.

I wasn't asserting that it was not, I was mostly agreeing with original post. The point I differ on is that I don't think either the WT or the Seanch will 'win'. If anything, both will 'lose', as in at the point of stalemate, both will have been badly damaged, with nothing to show for it. It will be part of the turning point, via which both of them are made to realise how idiotic they are, especially on the eve of armageddon, so to speak.

 

everything in between

Agreed.

 

So, IMO, the attack is not only coming and Aes Sedai won't be able to fend it off this time (on or off-screen), but for the good of all, it is imperative that all the rubble and rubbish getting in the way of full cooperation and mutual respect amongst all channelers is removed and right now, that's what the White Tower has become.

Again, I don't think they will be completely devestated. Their arrogance/self-righteousness will be (or should be, imho). Also, as I stated earlier, there will be no 'victory' for either party.

[DemandredFO]

As I said in other threads, one way or another I think the Shadow is going to crash the WT party. By now, Kandor is probably destroyed and the shadow will be at the gates soon. The only way for the Tower to defeat 500,000+ Trollocs and whatever else gets sent is for Rand's forces to personally intervene or hundred and thousands of battle-trained demane to intervene. Lightning, fireballs and exploding rocks won't kill that many shadowspawn. At Dumais wells the AS with Perrin, even the greens, only used fire, so I doubt they can be effective. The greens were useless in the first attack by humans who wanted to capture, the shadow wants to destroy, so the AS need the Seanchan. The AS also need to be with the army instead seeing it as useful dogs. For all Egwene's preaching about wanting friends, Elayne or Nyneave could probably help her if she asked them and then listened.

[draconian]

As I said in other threads, one way or another I think the Shadow is going to crash the WT party. By now, Kandor is probably destroyed and the shadow will be at the gates soon. The only way for the Tower to defeat 500,000+ Trollocs and whatever else gets sent is for Rand's forces to personally intervene or hundred and thousands of battle-trained demane to intervene. Lightning, fireballs and exploding rocks won't kill that many shadowspawn. At Dumais wells the AS with Perrin, even the greens, only used fire, so I doubt they can be effective. The greens were useless in the first attack by humans who wanted to capture, the shadow wants to destroy, so the AS need the Seanchan. The AS also need to be with the army instead seeing it as useful dogs. For all Egwene's preaching about wanting friends, Elayne or Nyneave could probably help her if she asked them and then listened.

ill bet u moiraine asked as 1 of her wish for the knowledge of an AoL battle channeller who fought the shadow so she can teach the women how to weave decent attack weaves b/c atm aes sedai rank just above wind finders in battle channelling and so she can be effective when linked to rand at TG.

[Darth Krewl]

I wasn't asserting that it was not, I was mostly agreeing with original post. The point I differ on is that I don't think either the WT or the Seanch will 'win'. If anything, both will 'lose', as in at the point of stalemate, both will have been badly damaged, with nothing to show for it. It will be part of the turning point, via which both of them are made to realise how idiotic they are, especially on the eve of armageddon, so to speak.

 

Yeah, I see your logic now and from that PoV, I agree. I misunderstood and I stand corrected. I see Mat intervening to save the day and perhaps help bridge the huge gap in understanding that exists between both factions in some way. Because, yes, the Seanchan are also making a lot of noise that gets in the way of the harmony needed by all the people in the face Tarmon Gai'don. Thanks for clarifying.

 

Again, I don't think they will be completely devestated. Their arrogance/self-righteousness will be (or should be, imho). Also, as I stated earlier, there will be no 'victory' for either party.

 

Again, agreed. I also don't think that the Aes Sedai will be utterly destroyed physically, either. But that this will be a very much needed lesson in humility that they've had coming for a long time, which should help humble them and get them to finally see reason.

[Kahlika]

Excuse the dealyed reply, my ability to post is generally tied to how busy work it on any given day.

 

1. Paaran Disen was about to be destroyed. The Light was on the brink of losing. ONly a few days away from total defeat. I suggest you also read up on the history. LTT, while ORIGINALLY when the plan was formed, he knew it was arrogance, and noted this. However, AT THE TIME OF THE SEALING, the shadow was on the brink of victory, THERE WAS NO MORE TIME. So yes, LTT did save the world.

 

To the second point. YEs, As the world was days away from destruction, LTT had to. your wrong there. And it has been prophesied that Rand has to break the seals, or have you forgotten Herid Fel and the Karatheon Cycle? You seriously cant doubt that Rand is wrong on this point? If so, thats just willfull ignorance.

 

And yes, Rand does have to break them now. In case you didnt notice, the Borderlands have been overrun by trollocs, Caemlyn is burning and the shadow is in full swing. The Aes Sedai havent been working on a plan to re-seal the bore in 3000 years, or at least the 2 years when they knew the seals were crumbling. There is NO MORE TIME to sit around. The DO is about to break free anyway. I dont see how hard a concept that is.,

 

Edit: Sorry if this sounds a little agressive, it isnt meant to be. the Caps are just to highlight key points. I forgot about bold type. So yeah, it may seem testy, but it is meant to be good natured.

 

I think you've missed my point. Let me clarify.

 

My issue is that people are confusing winning/losing a war with the destruction of the pattern.

 

LTT had to strike then to win the war. He did not have to strike then to save the pattern. So to say in striking then he saved the pattern is not exactly true.

 

In striking then he ended the war yes, but there's no evidence to suggest the moment the war was lost the pattern would be unmade. The Bore had been wide open for ~100 years, the DO had had every opportunity to unmake the pattern and hadn't yet done so, which suggests that that needs a significant amount of time to achieve. The Dark's forces had every opportunity to free him and hadn't done so, which suggests they couldn't actually do more, or they would have done so to get a further advantage. Even Ishamael was planning to rule for a time, which again suggests that there was time left. So to equate the loss of the war with the immediate destruction of the pattern really doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

I'm not arguing that he has to break the seals. As readers we have clearly been given enough information to see that he does and is going to. I'm saying that there is a logical inconsistancy with arguing that it's ok for Rand to break the seals now, but it was terrible and the end of the world for LTT to leave the bore unsealed for a little longer. And as we know it's not the instant end of the world if Rand breaks the seals, as such it doesn't logically follow that LTT couldn't have left the bore open longer in order to work something better out. To do so may have indeed cost the light the war, but it's unlikely it would have resulted in the immediate destruction of the pattern.

 

Even LTT admits it was a mistake. See ToM Chapter 51 A Testing, where Min and Rand discuss LTT at the end:

 

He made mistakes. I made mistakes. I grew arrogant, desperate.

 

What LTT did was a mistake. It may have ended the war, but it broke the world, and was the result of a rash, desperate, arrogant action that he now recognises was a mistake. So to say it was absolutely the right thing etc etc is just not correct.

 

The name was wrong. Whoopsie.

 

Yes, but you got the name wrong while you were busily telling someone else they didn't have the right to an opinion because they made a mistake. If you're going to judge people by certain standards you really shouldn't complain when those are applied to yourself.

[Grandis]

Excuse the dealyed reply, my ability to post is generally tied to how busy work it on any given day.

 

I think you've missed my point. Let me clarify.

 

My issue is that people are confusing winning/losing a war with the destruction of the pattern.

 

LTT had to strike then to win the war. He did not have to strike then to save the pattern. So to say in striking then he saved the pattern is not exactly true.

 

In striking then he ended the war yes, but there's no evidence to suggest the moment the war was lost the pattern would be unmade. The Bore had been wide open for ~100 years, the DO had had every opportunity to unmake the pattern and hadn't yet done so, which suggests that that needs a significant amount of time to achieve. The Dark's forces had every opportunity to free him and hadn't done so, which suggests they couldn't actually do more, or they would have done so to get a further advantage. Even Ishamael was planning to rule for a time, which again suggests that there was time left. So to equate the loss of the war with the immediate destruction of the pattern really doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

I'm not arguing that he has to break the seals. As readers we have clearly been given enough information to see that he does and is going to. I'm saying that there is a logical inconsistancy with arguing that it's ok for Rand to break the seals now, but it was terrible and the end of the world for LTT to leave the bore unsealed for a little longer. And as we know it's not the instant end of the world if Rand breaks the seals, as such it doesn't logically follow that LTT couldn't have left the bore open longer in order to work something better out. To do so may have indeed cost the light the war, but it's unlikely it would have resulted in the immediate destruction of the pattern.

 

Even LTT admits it was a mistake. See ToM Chapter 51 A Testing, where Min and Rand discuss LTT at the end:

 

He made mistakes. I made mistakes. I grew arrogant, desperate.

 

What LTT did was a mistake. It may have ended the war, but it broke the world, and was the result of a rash, desperate, arrogant action that he now recognises was a mistake. So to say it was absolutely the right thing etc etc is just not correct.

 

 

 

At no point in his conversation with Min does he mention the strike on SG, merely that mistakes were made. He may have been referring to sealing the bore, but you can't be certain of that given what he actually said, rather than the words you put in his mouth. His plan, if nothing else, bought them another 3500 years to come up with something better. The fact that the WT has spent 3000 years not coming up with a viable alternative suggests that it couldn't be done at all without a fully enlightened dragon, AKA ZenRand.

 

As far as whether it was imperative that they strike immediately is concerned, the shadow had captured the territory within which the CK were located. Though they were well hidden, if they had been discovered it wouldn't even have mattered if they had sealed the DO away perfectly since whoever found them, forsaken or dreadlord, certainly would have used them to conquer the world completely, wiping out the forces opposing them in short order. Also, the notion that the impending collapse of the forces of the light was not in itself a good reason to strike at SG is absurd on the face of it. I fail to see how they could have come up with a viable plan to defeat the DO while shattered and scattered with few resources to bring to bear against a foe hellbent on their destruction. It would be much like the Aiel in the first of Aviendha's visions trying to defeat the Seanchan when they couldn't even poke their heads up without getting shot.

 

Edited to say; First post. Hi all!

[Durinax]

well lets get back to the core of the thread. That Egwene and all ASdom sucks and should be destroyed

[capuga]

In striking then he ended the war yes, but there's no evidence to suggest the moment the war was lost the pattern would be unmade. The Bore had been wide open for ~100 years, the DO had had every opportunity to unmake the pattern and hadn't yet done so, which suggests that that needs a significant amount of time to achieve. The Dark's forces had every opportunity to free him and hadn't done so, which suggests they couldn't actually do more, or they would have done so to get a further advantage. Even Ishamael was planning to rule for a time, which again suggests that there was time left. So to equate the loss of the war with the immediate destruction of the pattern really doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

I'm not arguing that he has to break the seals. As readers we have clearly been given enough information to see that he does and is going to. I'm saying that there is a logical inconsistancy with arguing that it's ok for Rand to break the seals now, but it was terrible and the end of the world for LTT to leave the bore unsealed for a little longer. And as we know it's not the instant end of the world if Rand breaks the seals, as such it doesn't logically follow that LTT couldn't have left the bore open longer in order to work something better out. To do so may have indeed cost the light the war, but it's unlikely it would have resulted in the immediate destruction of the pattern.

 

Perhaps not the immediate destruction of the pattern. However, by the time of LTT's strike the Light was losing the war. Latra's (sp?) plan was possibly feasible but the access keys to the CK had been lost in Shadow controlled lands. So without LTT's strike the Shadow would likely have soon won the war - at which point they could have turned their full attention to tearing open the Bore and completely freeing the Dark One. We have seen that the Dark One most likely intends to destroy the Pattern once he is free'd so it is at this point that the world is probably toast. The raid was already a fairly desperate high-risk action and LTT couldn't have waited much longer while the Light continued to fall behind in the war.

 

I would argue that the outcome of the strike was about the best the Light could expect. The only alternative plan (involving the CK) was no longer possible because of the loss of the access keys. Waiting much longer during a war that you are beginning to be overwhelmed in to come up with another alternative or to take some kind of action doesn't seem like it was feasible. The Taint and the resulting Breaking were unintended side-effects and terrible but still better than losing the war and having the Dark One completely free'd.

[Darth Krewl]

well lets get back to the core of the thread. That Egwene and all ASdom sucks and should be destroyed

 

lol! I wholeheartedly second this motion.

[haloun]

i dont really hate egwene, nor am i a rand fan, but egwene's attitude in this book is, in my mind, what has set off most of the haters on their rampage. i know it set me off. on that note, rand ASKED her to oppose him! he TOLD her to gather those who oppose and meet with him. she is doing just that. rand is going to do what he does no matter what, no-one can stop him. but the arrogance that she has in not even trying to think "why would rand do that?" is what gets me. she treated gawyn, who incidentally i have always liked, like a heap of fish turd, she wouldnt listen to reason from anyone, and she constantly ignored everyone elses point of views when they were voiced to her. Gawyn was correct in telling her the deaths were not messaana she dismissed him because he couldnt possibly know anything about battle or politics, or assassins, its not like he grew up in a palace or anything, nor is it like he had to fight his way through the whitecloaks to get to TV. so she is perfectly justified in ignoring people who do have experience? i dont think so. her lack of remorse in any way whatsoever also strikes me as not only odd but a major reason to dislike her now. remember i like egwene. however she doesnt think in this book. the unification of the channellers was amazing! very well thought out, and designed to weed out weaknesses that the tower has had for years, it shows that she knows the aes sedai arent perfect or all knowing creatures of all powerfullness, but that they have much to learn. can you imagine sylviana being tied to a mast by her toes? or running around the camp in the freezing night of the waste naked? what will this do to the aes sedai? as for weeding out the BA, it is fairly easy, immediately after taking the oaths, you swear, not on the OR but that does not matter, that you will fight the shadow for as long as you live. binding and no way around it, and if someone has second thoughts, they wont be able to swear, they are then put to the question. so it is easily taken care of. plus the fact that there is not one single member of the BA left to help recruit, or secure the OR, or anything else. all in all she did turn a bit into a power hungry warlord type at the end, but i think this has to do with halima and the messages. nynaeve will discover something wrong with her after the battle in caemlyn, and fix it, and the egwene will no longer have quite as many issues. i just thought of one other thing she spent considerable time with fain and that is probably playing a part into all of this as well.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Excuse the dealyed reply, my ability to post is generally tied to how busy work it on any given day.

 

1. Paaran Disen was about to be destroyed. The Light was on the brink of losing. ONly a few days away from total defeat. I suggest you also read up on the history. LTT, while ORIGINALLY when the plan was formed, he knew it was arrogance, and noted this. However, AT THE TIME OF THE SEALING, the shadow was on the brink of victory, THERE WAS NO MORE TIME. So yes, LTT did save the world.

 

To the second point. YEs, As the world was days away from destruction, LTT had to. your wrong there. And it has been prophesied that Rand has to break the seals, or have you forgotten Herid Fel and the Karatheon Cycle? You seriously cant doubt that Rand is wrong on this point? If so, thats just willfull ignorance.

 

And yes, Rand does have to break them now. In case you didnt notice, the Borderlands have been overrun by trollocs, Caemlyn is burning and the shadow is in full swing. The Aes Sedai havent been working on a plan to re-seal the bore in 3000 years, or at least the 2 years when they knew the seals were crumbling. There is NO MORE TIME to sit around. The DO is about to break free anyway. I dont see how hard a concept that is.,

 

Edit: Sorry if this sounds a little agressive, it isnt meant to be. the Caps are just to highlight key points. I forgot about bold type. So yeah, it may seem testy, but it is meant to be good natured.

 

I think you've missed my point. Let me clarify.

 

My issue is that people are confusing winning/losing a war with the destruction of the pattern.

 

LTT had to strike then to win the war. He did not have to strike then to save the pattern. So to say in striking then he saved the pattern is not exactly true.

 

In striking then he ended the war yes, but there's no evidence to suggest the moment the war was lost the pattern would be unmade. The Bore had been wide open for ~100 years, the DO had had every opportunity to unmake the pattern and hadn't yet done so, which suggests that that needs a significant amount of time to achieve. The Dark's forces had every opportunity to free him and hadn't done so, which suggests they couldn't actually do more, or they would have done so to get a further advantage. Even Ishamael was planning to rule for a time, which again suggests that there was time left. So to equate the loss of the war with the immediate destruction of the pattern really doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

I'm not arguing that he has to break the seals. As readers we have clearly been given enough information to see that he does and is going to. I'm saying that there is a logical inconsistancy with arguing that it's ok for Rand to break the seals now, but it was terrible and the end of the world for LTT to leave the bore unsealed for a little longer. And as we know it's not the instant end of the world if Rand breaks the seals, as such it doesn't logically follow that LTT couldn't have left the bore open longer in order to work something better out. To do so may have indeed cost the light the war, but it's unlikely it would have resulted in the immediate destruction of the pattern.

 

Even LTT admits it was a mistake. See ToM Chapter 51 A Testing, where Min and Rand discuss LTT at the end:

 

He made mistakes. I made mistakes. I grew arrogant, desperate.

 

What LTT did was a mistake. It may have ended the war, but it broke the world, and was the result of a rash, desperate, arrogant action that he now recognises was a mistake. So to say it was absolutely the right thing etc etc is just not correct.

 

Alot of what your saying is semantics. The pattern would be destroyed after the light fell. LTT the Dragon, Champion of Light, would have died, and the shadow had no opposition. It doesnt matter what TIME FRAME the DO unravelled the pattern, the point is that the Shadow would have had the final victory. There would be no comming back. The end. Even if it took weeks, or even years. The light would be destroyed.

 

The sealing was not a mistake. it broke the world, yeah, but compared to what? The end of time itself? Are you seriously saying that the DO's victory would be better than the Breaking? That just sounds silly and defending your point to extreme.

 

With the Rand/ LTT hypocracy thing, there are different circumstances. LTT had no choice, or the Shadow would have won. Full Stop. Theres no denying it. Unnless you think that there may have been some miraculous rebellion managing to seal the bore while the DO was basically dominating the world? Which is basically impossible and wishful thinking.

 

Rand knows he has to break the seals. So why wouldnt he do it sooner rather than wait until the light was devistated then do it at the last possible moment. The blame lies with both LTT and Latra. Latra waited too long for some stupid miracle. LTT realised thhey had to act right away. Even though he admits it was not the best plan, Latra was also to blame. She was being an idiot. If you are on death row (which the Light was) you would try to escape (the sealing) no matter the risks involved, as anything is better than death (the DO winning) . Latra's plan was lost to the shadow, they didnt have any time left to think of a new one. THEY WERE WEEKS/DAYS AWAY FROM TOTAL DEFEAT. You take the risk, because its the only plan you have. I seriously cannot believe you cant understand that LTT saved the world from utter destruction. Its not a hard concept. Unless you think that they would come up with a random plan in the days they had left. While the DO grew stronger and the Light slowly being suffocated. You cant exactly make plans while you are being choked by a murderer, you just act on the best thing you can think of.

 

Also, you seem to have left out another important quote.

 

Towers of Midnight Chapter 3: The Amyrlin's Anger:

 

"The last time I tried to seal the Bore, I was forced to do it without the help of the women. That was part of what led to the disaster, though they may have been wise to deny me their strength. Well, blame must be spread evenly, but I will not make the same mistake a second time. I believe that saidin and saidar must both be used."

 

HERE would be a better quote than the one you used. he did acknolwedge IN RETROSPECT, he made a mistake. But I dont know how anyone can doubt it did not save the world from total destruction. It may not have been the most perfect plan, but it was the right one to make at the time. because it was THE ONLY ONE.

 

Also, as the quote points out, the blame lay evenly. In retrospect, it was kinda good they refused to help, but that refusal that led to LTT desperation was a major factor that led to the disaster. To say Latra was all good and right and that LTT was wrong is foolish.

 

In fact, i think that the pattern wanted this to happen. so the BOTH did the right thing. So the blame lies with both, and none, if you understand me. Both LTT and Latra are to blame for the botched sealing, because they didnt work something out together and plan. However, none of them were to blame because it accomplished what the pattern needed in the dire circumstances. The bore sealed. LTT did. And the saidar clean (Latra). Hard to ecxplain, but they were both right AND to blame.

 

This time it will be different. Rand acknolwedges his mistakes that led to the tainting. now Egwene needs to fulfill her part of the bargin by acknowledging Latra's mistakes for not helping. I dont think that the exact same events are going to play out, that Egwene will refuse and Rand seals the bore and taints saidin. The key will be THIS TIME, they will work together to do it right.