Discuss Egwene

[Luckers]

Go.

[Braden]

Still can't stand her. There were elements in TGS where she was tolerable but those seem gone now.

 

I am almost routing for the Seanchan to attack and cripple her power base. The whole Rand thing and fields of merilor will be interesting in that she won't get her way depite her manuvering. Nations will side with Rand in the end and we know how much he fears her and her Aes'Sedai.

[randsc]

For those who don't understand why many feel Egwene is so awful, I'll offer this little primer.

 

First, let me start by saying that I believe that Egwene is being written this way very intentionally. I am aware of the fact that RJ was frequently criticized for being unable to write strong female characters that didn't come across as bitches. But I think the growth we have seen in some of the female characters (notably Nynaeve, Cadsuane and Min) is proof that he could write strong female characters that aren't bitches. Or at least, proof that Sanderson can.

 

So if Egwene is being written as a cluesless, arrogant witch (and she is) it is intentional. There will be a plot justification for it. I favor the Halima compulsion explanation myself, but it may turn out to be something else.

 

Now, as to the ways in which Egwene is awful.

 

1. She opposes Rand instinctively, with no plan of her own. It's fine to be freaked by the idea of breaking the seals. It is not fine to simply attempt to stonewall while making no attempt to come up with a better plan, and devoting the resources (e.g., the Browns) who could have helped come up with a better plan to White Tower politics instead.

 

2. She spends time and effort trying to ensure that the White Tower will control all of the female channelers, post-Last Battle. Her little scheme with the Wise Ones and Windfinders might not be a bad idea. But if the breaking the seals is the WOT equivilent of nuclear war, as some claim, than what Egwene is doing is the equivilent of plotting to ensure that that nuclear war benefits her political party in the resulting redistricting. Outrageous.

 

3. We can see into her head, and what we see is ugly. I find the speculation about Egwene's motivations and attitudes fruitful only when we don't have direct knowledge of what she is thinking. We have Egwene POVs that give us that direct knowledge in a number of cases. Egwene doesn't think to herself, "If only Rand would EXPLAIN why he thinks he needs to break the seals." She just thinks she knows better. She doesn't think to herself, "You know, Nynaeve has spent a lot of time with Rand lately, and I trust her judgment. Maybe I should follow up later on why she isn't sure Rand's idea is crazy. But I'll oppose that plan until I have a chance to talk to her about it and consider her answers." She just thinks that Nynaeve has been spending to much time with Rand and is caught in the Ta'Veren effect. She doesn't think to herself, "I love and respect Gawyn, I just wish he would realize the difficult position I am in as a young, new Amyrlin, and defer to me in public." Instead, even her thoughts indicate that she expects not just public deference of the sort she demands of Nynaeve, but actual submission to her will.

 

4. She has a completely unfounded belief in the superiority of her own judgment, and the necessity for all to defer to her. I realize that all Aes Sedai do, but it is far worse in her case. Someone like Cadsuane might be able to say to herself, with some justification, “You know, self, I’ve seen a lot in the last 400 years. My experience is superior to that of virtually anyone alive.” A Brown (take your pick) might be able to say to herself, with some justification, “I have spent decades studying this question. My knowledge of the subject is superior to that of virtually anyone else.” Egwene is an unschooled, 19-year-old who came to her position mostly by dint of being the candidate least objectionable to all of the various factions. She has neither the experience nor the knowledge to justify her belief that she always knows best. It would be fine if she recognized this, but thought she needed to put on a brave face due to her position. But there is nothing in her POVs that suggests that she does. She just thinks she knows best.

 

5. Rand isn’t a king. I have seen a number of comments to the effect of, “No leader should be unquestioned.” Interestingly, this apparently applies only when Rand is the leader in question. Questioning our teenage Amyrlin remains verboten. But regardless, Rand is not a “leader.” He is the Dragon Reborn, the living fulfillment of the Prophecies, the Messiah come to save the World. All major characters accept this. He is the only hope of victory over the Shadow. He has been given special gifts to help him do this. And yet Egwene thinks he should, “Submit to the guidance of the Tower?” If there is a Second Coming of Jesus, will he be expected to “submit himself to the guidance” of Pat Robertson?

 

6. She pits herself against the pattern. She believes that anyone opposing her must be swept up in Ta’veren effects. Because of course no one behaving rationally could possibly oppose HER! But lets say she’s right, and Nynaeve (for example) has been swept up in Rand’s ta’veren influence. What exactly is that influence? It is the freakin’ Pattern , the motive force of the Universe, bending itself around someone in order to accomplish something that must happen. So not only is Egwene’s judgment superior to that of the Dragon Reborn, the Aiel Wise One, all the centuries-old Aes Sedai, her friends, and every other human on the planet. Her judgment is superior to the working of the Universe itself. Okey-dokie.

 

7. She’s a good, old-fashioned sexist. No other way to put it, really. Again, we don’t need to simply divine this from her actions (although we certainly could.) We see her thoughts. And she continues to hold female chauvinist beliefs. It is instructive, I think, to see how much she objects to women being bonded to male channelers. Not Aes Sedai, that’s not how she thinks of them. WOMEN. But women bonding men is just fine. It's interesting, I think, that the female Foresaken don't have the same sorts of sexist thoughts in their POVs that Egwene does in hers. In this regard, at least, she is a worse person than Lanfear or Graendel.

 

8. Her actions toward Perrin in TAR. Are not just arrogant, they’re potentially deadly. Trying to tie him up in the middle of a battle? And don’t tell me, “Oh, she was just doing that while she pushed him out of the Dream.” In the first place, we haven’t seen anything to suggest that immobilizing someone is necessary or even helpful in pushing them out of the Dream. In the second place, she says something like, “I’m sorry Perrin, I’ll be back for you.” She was clearly planning on leaving him in place while she ran off and fought the battle.

 

9. No respect for the man she supposedly loves. A.) No apology for Gawyn about the Blackknives. No thanks for saving her life. Bitch move. She knows she was wrong, but still won’t admit it. B.) No personal note asking him to return when he leaves (after she tells him she doesn’t need him). She has no official right to control his actions. He is not a Warder, or serving in her army. She has only a personal tie. And yet the note is sent by a flunky she knows dislikes men in general and Gawyn in particular. Bitch. C.) Even after events have proven that Gawyn’s judgment isn’t bad and has in at least one instance been correct while hers has been wrong, she is dismissive of his warning about Perrin and the armies. Fool.

 

10. No help for the Borderlands. Can’t allow that to get in the way of her gathering armies to herself. Because you know, she might need those armies if Rand, “Forces her hand.”

Egwene is awful. Simply awful. If there were justice in WOT world, she would be stilled and executed. But there is no justice in WOT world, or in modern publishing, so she’ll probably not even suffer any public embarrassment.

[Elan Tedronai]

there's too much hate for egwene amongst WOT fans. Simply because she dares oppose their lord and master rand al thor. Infact all of Egwene's haters are all rand al thor fans.

 

After the gathering storm most WOT fans still hated egwene but had grudging respect for the way she reunited the tower and kicked the seanchan's ass. I mean Rand can't even sort out his own mess at the black tower resulting in Aes Sedai being turned to the shadow and dreadlords being formed.

 

One poster on TOR's website actually put it succintly

 

posted by NiccMac

Egwene's critics won't be satisfied until she and all the Aes Sedai grovel at Rand's feet. Wouldn't that make a great story? After all, Rand is the Dragon Reborn...the Champion of the Light...the last hope for humanity against the Dark One. He can do whatever he wants because, after all, he has prophecy on his side. It doesn't matter that, just a few hours before his meeting with Egwene, he nearly destroyed the pattern. Besides, as the Dragon, it was His prerogative to do so. Rand's arrogance, his manipulation of friends and allies, his mistakes and crimes...well, He is excused of these things because He is the Dragon Reborn. If he's leading humanity off a cliff with his half-baked plan to break the seals, everyone else should just get in line and follow. And in any case...give him a break! Can't you see the incredible strain he's under? How would you act under that awesome weight of responsibility? If he balefires a few palaces and/or family members, well, you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet. And if he assures Egwene and the Hall that he's better now that he's taken the time to ponder an elementary philosophical question, they should just take him at his word.

 

Come to think of it, a messianic leader who subverted long-standing institutions in his rise to power, whose conquests, atrocities, and demands for obedience were all justified on account of him being the Chosen One, and who had to take "firm measures" to deal with a haughty and overprivileged class of traitors that opposed him at every turn....It seems like I've heard that story before......

[randsc]

It isn't just Rand. She treats everyone the same way.

 

And as for that quote" Rand ACTUALLY IS the prophecied messiah figure. Not just claiming it for political purposes. So that poster is off-base.

[Bob T Dwarf]

For those who don't understand why many feel Egwene is so awful, I'll offer this little primer.

 

 

5. Rand isn’t a king. I have seen a number of comments to the effect of, “No leader should be unquestioned.” Interestingly, this apparently applies only when Rand is the leader in question. Questioning our teenage Amyrlin remains verboten. But regardless, Rand is not a “leader.” He is the Dragon Reborn, the living fulfillment of the Prophecies, the Messiah come to save the World. All major characters accept this. He is the only hope of victory over the Shadow. He has been given special gifts to help him do this. And yet Egwene thinks he should, “Submit to the guidance of the Tower?” If there is a Second Coming of Jesus, will he be expected to “submit himself to the guidance” of Pat Robertson?

 

 

 

In general agree with all of it, but this one gets me. In a good way. Yes he is the prophesied messiah, and should be listened to and approached on that basis.

 

But, if there were to be a second coming, there is a large and vocal group who would indeed expect Christ to defer to Pat Robertson. Including I expect, Pat Robertson himself.

 

Then, of course, there's the Pope. You could get rich selling tickets to the Pope Clement/Pat Robertson grudge match. The winner would expect to wear Christ like some kind of Championship belt.

[randsc]

Sure, Robertson would probably expect it. And he would be arrogant, foolish, stupid and a bitch for expecting it. Just like Egwene.

 

And since the last Pope named Clement died in 1774, I would bet Robertson would have no trouble whuppin' Clement's dessicated corpse :)

[capuga]

there's too much hate for egwene amongst WOT fans. Simply because she dares oppose their lord and master rand al thor. Infact all of Egwene's haters are all rand al thor fans.

 

After the gathering storm most WOT fans still hated egwene but had grudging respect for the way she reunited the tower and kicked the seanchan's ass. I mean Rand can't even sort out his own mess at the black tower resulting in Aes Sedai being turned to the shadow and dreadlords being formed.

 

One poster on TOR's website actually put it succintly

 

posted by NiccMac

Egwene's critics won't be satisfied until she and all the Aes Sedai grovel at Rand's feet. Wouldn't that make a great story? After all, Rand is the Dragon Reborn...the Champion of the Light...the last hope for humanity against the Dark One. He can do whatever he wants because, after all, he has prophecy on his side. It doesn't matter that, just a few hours before his meeting with Egwene, he nearly destroyed the pattern. Besides, as the Dragon, it was His prerogative to do so. Rand's arrogance, his manipulation of friends and allies, his mistakes and crimes...well, He is excused of these things because He is the Dragon Reborn. If he's leading humanity off a cliff with his half-baked plan to break the seals, everyone else should just get in line and follow. And in any case...give him a break! Can't you see the incredible strain he's under? How would you act under that awesome weight of responsibility? If he balefires a few palaces and/or family members, well, you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet. And if he assures Egwene and the Hall that he's better now that he's taken the time to ponder an elementary philosophical question, they should just take him at his word.

 

Come to think of it, a messianic leader who subverted long-standing institutions in his rise to power, whose conquests, atrocities, and demands for obedience were all justified on account of him being the Chosen One, and who had to take "firm measures" to deal with a haughty and overprivileged class of traitors that opposed him at every turn....It seems like I've heard that story before......

 

There are plenty of reasons to dislike Egwene that have nothing to do with Rand. See randsc's well written post above. To dismiss all Egwene hate as Rand fanboyism is as unfair as you claim the Egwene haters are.

[NetSlider]

For those who don't understand why many feel Egwene is so awful, I'll offer this little primer.

 

First, let me start by saying that I believe that Egwene is being written this way very intentionally. I am aware of the fact that RJ was frequently criticized for being unable to write strong female characters that didn't come across as bitches. But I think the growth we have seen in some of the female characters (notably Nynaeve, Cadsuane and Min) is proof that he could write strong female characters that aren't bitches. Or at least, proof that Sanderson can.

 

So if Egwene is being written as a cluesless, arrogant witch (and she is) it is intentional. There will be a plot justification for it. I favor the Halima compulsion explanation myself, but it may turn out to be something else.

 

Now, as to the ways in which Egwene is awful.

 

1. She opposes Rand instinctively, with no plan of her own. It's fine to be freaked by the idea of breaking the seals. It is not fine to simply attempt to stonewall while making no attempt to come up with a better plan, and devoting the resources (e.g., the Browns) who could have helped come up with a better plan to White Tower politics instead.

 

2. She spends time and effort trying to ensure that the White Tower will control all of the female channelers, post-Last Battle. Her little scheme with the Wise Ones and Windfinders might not be a bad idea. But if the breaking the seals is the WOT equivilent of nuclear war, as some claim, than what Egwene is doing is the equivilent of plotting to ensure that that nuclear war benefits her political party in the resulting redistricting. Outrageous.

 

3. We can see into her head, and what we see is ugly. I find the speculation about Egwene's motivations and attitudes fruitful only when we don't have direct knowledge of what she is thinking. We have Egwene POVs that give us that direct knowledge in a number of cases. Egwene doesn't think to herself, "If only Rand would EXPLAIN why he thinks he needs to break the seals." She just thinks she knows better. She doesn't think to herself, "You know, Nynaeve has spent a lot of time with Rand lately, and I trust her judgment. Maybe I should follow up later on why she isn't sure Rand's idea is crazy. But I'll oppose that plan until I have a chance to talk to her about it and consider her answers." She just thinks that Nynaeve has been spending to much time with Rand and is caught in the Ta'Veren effect. She doesn't think to herself, "I love and respect Gawyn, I just wish he would realize the difficult position I am in as a young, new Amyrlin, and defer to me in public." Instead, even her thoughts indicate that she expects not just public deference of the sort she demands of Nynaeve, but actual submission to her will.

 

4. She has a completely unfounded belief in the superiority of her own judgment, and the necessity for all to defer to her. I realize that all Aes Sedai do, but it is far worse in her case. Someone like Cadsuane might be able to say to herself, with some justification, “You know, self, I’ve seen a lot in the last 400 years. My experience is superior to that of virtually anyone alive.” A Brown (take your pick) might be able to say to herself, with some justification, “I have spent decades studying this question. My knowledge of the subject is superior to that of virtually anyone else.” Egwene is an unschooled, 19-year-old who came to her position mostly by dint of being the candidate least objectionable to all of the various factions. She has neither the experience nor the knowledge to justify her belief that she always knows best. It would be fine if she recognized this, but thought she needed to put on a brave face due to her position. But there is nothing in her POVs that suggests that she does. She just thinks she knows best.

 

5. Rand isn’t a king. I have seen a number of comments to the effect of, “No leader should be unquestioned.” Interestingly, this apparently applies only when Rand is the leader in question. Questioning our teenage Amyrlin remains verboten. But regardless, Rand is not a “leader.” He is the Dragon Reborn, the living fulfillment of the Prophecies, the Messiah come to save the World. All major characters accept this. He is the only hope of victory over the Shadow. He has been given special gifts to help him do this. And yet Egwene thinks he should, “Submit to the guidance of the Tower?” If there is a Second Coming of Jesus, will he be expected to “submit himself to the guidance” of Pat Robertson?

 

6. She pits herself against the pattern. She believes that anyone opposing her must be swept up in Ta’veren effects. Because of course no one behaving rationally could possibly oppose HER! But lets say she’s right, and Nynaeve (for example) has been swept up in Rand’s ta’veren influence. What exactly is that influence? It is the freakin’ Pattern , the motive force of the Universe, bending itself around someone in order to accomplish something that must happen. So not only is Egwene’s judgment superior to that of the Dragon Reborn, the Aiel Wise One, all the centuries-old Aes Sedai, her friends, and every other human on the planet. Her judgment is superior to the working of the Universe itself. Okey-dokie.

 

7. She’s a good, old-fashioned sexist. No other way to put it, really. Again, we don’t need to simply divine this from her actions (although we certainly could.) We see her thoughts. And she continues to hold female chauvinist beliefs. It is instructive, I think, to see how much she objects to women being bonded to male channelers. Not Aes Sedai, that’s not how she thinks of them. WOMEN. But women bonding men is just fine. It's interesting, I think, that the female Foresaken don't have the same sorts of sexist thoughts in their POVs that Egwene does in hers. In this regard, at least, she is a worse person than Lanfear or Graendel.

 

8. Her actions toward Perrin in TAR. Are not just arrogant, they’re potentially deadly. Trying to tie him up in the middle of a battle? And don’t tell me, “Oh, she was just doing that while she pushed him out of the Dream.” In the first place, we haven’t seen anything to suggest that immobilizing someone is necessary or even helpful in pushing them out of the Dream. In the second place, she says something like, “I’m sorry Perrin, I’ll be back for you.” She was clearly planning on leaving him in place while she ran off and fought the battle.

 

9. No respect for the man she supposedly loves. A.) No apology for Gawyn about the Blackknives. No thanks for saving her life. Bitch move. She knows she was wrong, but still won’t admit it. B.) No personal note asking him to return when he leaves (after she tells him she doesn’t need him). She has no official right to control his actions. He is not a Warder, or serving in her army. She has only a personal tie. And yet the note is sent by a flunky she knows dislikes men in general and Gawyn in particular. Bitch. C.) Even after events have proven that Gawyn’s judgment isn’t bad and has in at least one instance been correct while hers has been wrong, she is dismissive of his warning about Perrin and the armies. Fool.

 

10. No help for the Borderlands. Can’t allow that to get in the way of her gathering armies to herself. Because you know, she might need those armies if Rand, “Forces her hand.”

Egwene is awful. Simply awful. If there were justice in WOT world, she would be stilled and executed. But there is no justice in WOT world, or in modern publishing, so she’ll probably not even suffer any public embarrassment.

 

 

Simply beautiful! And I mean it; almost teared up. Well put without missing anything. Reading this makes me want to see Elaida (sp) back - at least she didn't pretend to be something she was not. She was a complete bitch and proud of it!

 

In regards to saying fans of Rand are all against Egghead. I'm actually a big Mat fan (tell them Bob, he knows ) and I still hate her. And I actually always liked Min a lot and Moir (from first book) so it's not gender issue.

 

The worst part that I'm afraid of is if after LB Egghead will get some major credit for victory I WILL CONSIDER BURNING THE CDs THAN!

 

 

[Exy]

1. She opposes Rand instinctively, with no plan of her own. It's fine to be freaked by the idea of breaking the seals. It is not fine to simply attempt to stonewall while making no attempt to come up with a better plan, and devoting the resources (e.g., the Browns) who could have helped come up with a better plan to White Tower politics instead.

Oh, please. Rand has come to her to tell her that in a month's time he plans to do something that may well end the world. Of course she should oppose that, given what she knows. And why is she supposed to be the one who comes up with a plan for Tarmon Gai'don? How could she possibly do that?

 

 

2. She spends time and effort trying to ensure that the White Tower will control all of the female channelers, post-Last Battle. Her little scheme with the Wise Ones and Windfinders might not be a bad idea. But if the breaking the seals is the WOT equivilent of nuclear war, as some claim, than what Egwene is doing is the equivilent of plotting to ensure that that nuclear war benefits her political party in the resulting redistricting. Outrageous.

What the fuck? She's trying to create some unity between channelers of different cultures. What the hell is wrong with that? The post-Tarmon Gai'don world will be a whole lot better off if there's some leadership from the different factions of channelers, and if they're able to work together. Windfinders and Wise Ones who learn healing will be of tremendous benefit to their people, for one thing. Not to mention the obvious fact that a White Tower that's not strictly devoted to its own insular scheming will be better for the Westlands.

 

The comparison to redistricting doesn't even begin to make sense.

 

 

3. We can see into her head, and what we see is ugly. I find the speculation about Egwene's motivations and attitudes fruitful only when we don't have direct knowledge of what she is thinking. We have Egwene POVs that give us that direct knowledge in a number of cases. Egwene doesn't think to herself, "If only Rand would EXPLAIN why he thinks he needs to break the seals."

Yes, and if only Osama bin Laden had explained to us why he thinks he needs to fly planes into buildings. No human being would react to a guy who is known to be half-mad saying that the only way to save the world is to undertake an act that, as far as she can tell, is likely to destroy it by thinking, "Gee, I guess I should have a heart to heart and try to figure out his motivations."

 

 

She just thinks she knows better. She doesn't think to herself, "You know, Nynaeve has spent a lot of time with Rand lately, and I trust her judgment. Maybe I should follow up later on why she isn't sure Rand's idea is crazy. But I'll oppose that plan until I have a chance to talk to her about it and consider her answers." She just thinks that Nynaeve has been spending to much time with Rand and is caught in the Ta'Veren effect.

Which is, of course, the most sensible possible interpretation of what she sees.

 

 

She has neither the experience nor the knowledge to justify her belief that she always knows best.

In the past, it's been pretty clear that she does know best, typically. If she weren't daring to defy the great Rand al'Thor no one would be holding her to this ridiculous standard of expecting her to ignore her own judgment. Should she have also listened to her captors in the White Tower when they said the Seanchan weren't coming? And when they did, should she have tried to sit them down and understand them? "Gee, I wish you guys weren't trying to enslave us, but maybe you can tell us your perspective on why that's the right thing to do."

 

 

5. Rand isn’t a king. I have seen a number of comments to the effect of, “No leader should be unquestioned.” Interestingly, this apparently applies only when Rand is the leader in question. Questioning our teenage Amyrlin remains verboten.

Uh, the other characters question everything she does. Why do you think they don't? What are the Aes Sedai doing besides questioning her? Anyway, it's not about whether a leader should be "questioned", it's about crazy old Rand al'Thor, who's given plenty of reasons to call his judgment into doubt, coming up with a plan that's about the equivalent of incinerating a hospital and all its patients in order to fight heart disease.

 

 

But regardless, Rand is not a “leader.” He is the Dragon Reborn, the living fulfillment of the Prophecies, the Messiah come to save the World. All major characters accept this. He is the only hope of victory over the Shadow. He has been given special gifts to help him do this. And yet Egwene thinks he should, “Submit to the guidance of the Tower?” If there is a Second Coming of Jesus, will he be expected to “submit himself to the guidance” of Pat Robertson?

The analogy is pretty bad, because Jesus actually knows what he's doing. Until very recently, Rand had no special knowledge to guide him, and Egwene and the other characters have no way of knowing that he does now. The fact that he's the Light's only hope doesn't mean he's always right or that everyone should assume he's always right. This quote really does boil down to "How dare anyone question Rand al'Thor!" That's stupid.

 

 

6. She pits herself against the pattern. She believes that anyone opposing her must be swept up in Ta’veren effects. Because of course no one behaving rationally could possibly oppose HER! But lets say she’s right, and Nynaeve (for example) has been swept up in Rand’s ta’veren influence. What exactly is that influence? It is the freakin’ Pattern , the motive force of the Universe, bending itself around someone in order to accomplish something that must happen. So not only is Egwene’s judgment superior to that of the Dragon Reborn, the Aiel Wise One, all the centuries-old Aes Sedai, her friends, and every other human on the planet. Her judgment is superior to the working of the Universe itself. Okey-dokie.

There's no guarantee that the Light will win. That's not how it works. If the very universe itself is making this happen, it doesn't matter if she opposes it anyway. But, as far as we can see, that's not how it works. There are plenty of scenarios in which Rand could have died, and, whoops, game over for the Pattern. Like, for instance, that time a few hours before his conversation with Egwene in which he strongly considered destroying the entire world.

 

Whatever happens, her actions are play a significant role in whether the Dark One takes over creation or not. If the Pattern is guiding Nynaeve to accepting Rand's decision, why isn't it also guiding Egwene in her opposition to it? And if they're just two people making the decisions that make the most sense to them, then, well, she's seen what effects Rand has on people around him. (Hint: they're not always good. The ta'veren effects, among other things, cause large numbers of people to die in freak accidents.) Why should she or anyone assume that Rand's inadvertent ability to twist people's judgment is always going to work for the best?

 

 

7. She’s a good, old-fashioned sexist. No other way to put it, really. Again, we don’t need to simply divine this from her actions (although we certainly could.) We see her thoughts. And she continues to hold female chauvinist beliefs. It is instructive, I think, to see how much she objects to women being bonded to male channelers. Not Aes Sedai, that’s not how she thinks of them. WOMEN. But women bonding men is just fine. It's interesting, I think, that the female Foresaken don't have the same sorts of sexist thoughts in their POVs that Egwene does in hers. In this regard, at least, she is a worse person than Lanfear or Graendel.

I don't see how this makes her sexist.

 

 

8. Her actions toward Perrin in TAR. Are not just arrogant, they’re potentially deadly. Trying to tie him up in the middle of a battle? And don’t tell me, “Oh, she was just doing that while she pushed him out of the Dream.” In the first place, we haven’t seen anything to suggest that immobilizing someone is necessary or even helpful in pushing them out of the Dream. In the second place, she says something like, “I’m sorry Perrin, I’ll be back for you.” She was clearly planning on leaving him in place while she ran off and fought the battle.

Uh, yeah? She had no way of knowing Perrin had any ability in the Dream. Seeing her friend in a horribly dangerous conflict (one he didn't even know about) ought to make her freak out and try to keep him safe, especially given that she has seen exactly how dumb all three of those boys are about insisting on trying to keep her and other women safe even at risk to themselves. From her perspective, it wouldn't exactly be the first time one of them has bumbled off into some danger that she's better able to protect herself from.

 

 

10. No help for the Borderlands. Can’t allow that to get in the way of her gathering armies to herself. Because you know, she might need those armies if Rand, “Forces her hand.”

Egwene is awful. Simply awful. If there were justice in WOT world, she would be stilled and executed. But there is no justice in WOT world, or in modern publishing, so she’ll probably not even suffer any public embarrassment.

Who the fuck IS helping the Borderlands? Rand making a brief stop off and (at least temporarily) saving Maradon is not exactly solving the problem. Why isn't this his responsibility?

 

 

This irrational hatred people have for Egwene is just bizarre. She's somehow expected to either magically know things she has no way of knowing, or else just meekly nod and smile at whatever noted madman Rand al'Thor says. If not, she's a horrible arrogant bitch and she needs to be PUNISHED.

[Braden]

there's too much hate for egwene amongst WOT fans. Simply because she dares oppose their lord and master rand al thor. Infact all of Egwene's haters are all rand al thor fans.

 

After the gathering storm most WOT fans still hated egwene but had grudging respect for the way she reunited the tower and kicked the seanchan's ass. I mean Rand can't even sort out his own mess at the black tower resulting in Aes Sedai being turned to the shadow and dreadlords being formed.

 

One poster on TOR's website actually put it succintly

 

posted by NiccMac

Egwene's critics won't be satisfied until she and all the Aes Sedai grovel at Rand's feet. Wouldn't that make a great story? After all, Rand is the Dragon Reborn...the Champion of the Light...the last hope for humanity against the Dark One. He can do whatever he wants because, after all, he has prophecy on his side. It doesn't matter that, just a few hours before his meeting with Egwene, he nearly destroyed the pattern. Besides, as the Dragon, it was His prerogative to do so. Rand's arrogance, his manipulation of friends and allies, his mistakes and crimes...well, He is excused of these things because He is the Dragon Reborn. If he's leading humanity off a cliff with his half-baked plan to break the seals, everyone else should just get in line and follow. And in any case...give him a break! Can't you see the incredible strain he's under? How would you act under that awesome weight of responsibility? If he balefires a few palaces and/or family members, well, you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet. And if he assures Egwene and the Hall that he's better now that he's taken the time to ponder an elementary philosophical question, they should just take him at his word.

 

Come to think of it, a messianic leader who subverted long-standing institutions in his rise to power, whose conquests, atrocities, and demands for obedience were all justified on account of him being the Chosen One, and who had to take "firm measures" to deal with a haughty and overprivileged class of traitors that opposed him at every turn....It seems like I've heard that story before......

 

The hate for Egwene in my opinion is rationale. As the above poster mentions in length it isn't just her interactions with Rand that make her this way. As much as I would like to explain it away with compulsion I doubt this is the reasoning, she is just a bitch. Yes she is Amrilyn and that deserves a little bit of respect but every chapter of hers is another chapter setting up how she is going to enforce her will, over Rand, over friends, over other women who can channel, over the Hall, over Gawyn....

 

Essentially this field of Merrilor is just setting itself up to completely undermine Egwenes power as Amrilyn. She by manuvering around Rand and trying to gain support against him has essentially gone all in. Either he backs down and she gains some measure of power over him (unlikely given he doesn't fear her and he considers himself 400 years old surrounded by people whos opinion he respects more then Egwenes) or she loses all face.

[NetSlider]

Oh, please. Rand has come to her to tell her that in a month's time he plans to do something that may well end the world. Of course she should oppose that, given what she knows. And why is she supposed to be the one who comes up with a plan for Tarmon Gai'don? How could she possibly do that?

People LTT MADE THE SEALS. Everyone looks at them as something ubercool. To him it's like 3rd grade science project that now he sees might be improved. Rand, via LTT memories, knows what's he doing. After all, he made the seals in the first place. PERIOD!

[Jack Shaftoe]

Why does every Egwene thread inevitably derails into "Oh, yeah? Well, Rand sucks too! Take that, haters!"? Personally, I think Rand had made plenty of mistakes and Egwene not scrambling to obey his every wish is a good thing in theory. And I still think Egwene is by far the most annoying among the main characters in series.

 

4. She has a completely unfounded belief in the superiority of her own judgment, and the necessity for all to defer to her. I realize that all Aes Sedai do, but it is far worse in her case. Someone like Cadsuane might be able to say to herself, with some justification, “You know, self, I’ve seen a lot in the last 400 years. My experience is superior to that of virtually anyone alive.” A Brown (take your pick) might be able to say to herself, with some justification, “I have spent decades studying this question. My knowledge of the subject is superior to that of virtually anyone else.” Egwene is an unschooled, 19-year-old who came to her position mostly by dint of being the candidate least objectionable to all of the various factions. She has neither the experience nor the knowledge to justify her belief that she always knows best. It would be fine if she recognized this, but thought she needed to put on a brave face due to her position. But there is nothing in her POVs that suggests that she does. She just thinks she knows best.

 

Exactly. There is confident, there is arrogant and then there is being a megalomaniac. And she never, ever accepts even the possibility that anyone else might possibly be right if they oppose her own opinion. Not even her friends. Talking of friends, Egwene regularly treats them terribly. Her hypocritical behaviour towards Rand started pretty much the second she was introduced and still continues. She treats Mat like dirt when saves her in TDR and again in LoC when he comes to Salidar - she calls him Dragonsworn and threatens him and apparently hasn't explained to Elayne and Nynaeve that Mat is a real general, not some puppet leader installed by Rand. Heck, she was there in TFoH when Moiraine was praising Mat's prowess as a general but so what? Mat is a man, so any successes he might have had must have been due to blundering into them. The interactions with Nynaeve also turn ugly whenever Nyn dares to disagrees with Egwene.

 

What the fuck? She's trying to create some unity between channelers of different cultures. What the hell is wrong with that?

 

The timing of it. It's like worrying if you have paid your gas bill on the eve of nuclear war. If the world is destroyed it won't matter if you paid it or not. If not, you'd have plenty of time to do it after the battle.

[Exy]

People LTT MADE THE SEALS. Everyone looks at them as something ubercool. To him it's like 3rd grade science project that now he sees might be improved. Rand, via LTT memories, knows what's he doing. After all, he made the seals in the first place. PERIOD!

And? The question isn't whether or not it's a good idea. It's whether or not the characters in the novel do (or should) think it's a good idea.

 

 

The timing of it. It's like worrying if you have paid your gas bill on the eve of nuclear war. If the world is destroyed it won't matter if you paid it or not. If not, you'd have plenty of time to do it after the battle.

Spending a couple hours to create a better White Tower and helping make sure everyone can get every advantage they can out of the existence of the Wise Ones, Aes Sedai, and Windfinders seems like a pretty good thing to do to help make sure as many people as possible survive that nuclear war. Especially since she was also, simultaneously, using the meetings as a way of drawing in Mesaana and dealing with her. Which is a pretty legitimate thing to do.

[Bridge]

1. She opposes Rand instinctively, with no plan of her own. It's fine to be freaked by the idea of breaking the seals. It is not fine to simply attempt to stonewall while making no attempt to come up with a better plan, and devoting the resources (e.g., the Browns) who could have helped come up with a better plan to White Tower politics instead.

Oh, please. Rand has come to her to tell her that in a month's time he plans to do something that may well end the world. Of course she should oppose that, given what she knows. And why is she supposed to be the one who comes up with a plan for Tarmon Gai'don? How could she possibly do that?

 

 

2. She spends time and effort trying to ensure that the White Tower will control all of the female channelers, post-Last Battle. Her little scheme with the Wise Ones and Windfinders might not be a bad idea. But if the breaking the seals is the WOT equivilent of nuclear war, as some claim, than what Egwene is doing is the equivilent of plotting to ensure that that nuclear war benefits her political party in the resulting redistricting. Outrageous.

What the fuck? She's trying to create some unity between channelers of different cultures. What the hell is wrong with that? The post-Tarmon Gai'don world will be a whole lot better off if there's some leadership from the different factions of channelers, and if they're able to work together. Windfinders and Wise Ones who learn healing will be of tremendous benefit to their people, for one thing. Not to mention the obvious fact that a White Tower that's not strictly devoted to its own insular scheming will be better for the Westlands.

 

The comparison to redistricting doesn't even begin to make sense.

 

 

3. We can see into her head, and what we see is ugly. I find the speculation about Egwene's motivations and attitudes fruitful only when we don't have direct knowledge of what she is thinking. We have Egwene POVs that give us that direct knowledge in a number of cases. Egwene doesn't think to herself, "If only Rand would EXPLAIN why he thinks he needs to break the seals."

Yes, and if only Osama bin Laden had explained to us why he thinks he needs to fly planes into buildings. No human being would react to a guy who is known to be half-mad saying that the only way to save the world is to undertake an act that, as far as she can tell, is likely to destroy it by thinking, "Gee, I guess I should have a heart to heart and try to figure out his motivations."

 

 

She just thinks she knows better. She doesn't think to herself, "You know, Nynaeve has spent a lot of time with Rand lately, and I trust her judgment. Maybe I should follow up later on why she isn't sure Rand's idea is crazy. But I'll oppose that plan until I have a chance to talk to her about it and consider her answers." She just thinks that Nynaeve has been spending to much time with Rand and is caught in the Ta'Veren effect.

Which is, of course, the most sensible possible interpretation of what she sees.

 

 

She has neither the experience nor the knowledge to justify her belief that she always knows best.

In the past, it's been pretty clear that she does know best, typically. If she weren't daring to defy the great Rand al'Thor no one would be holding her to this ridiculous standard of expecting her to ignore her own judgment. Should she have also listened to her captors in the White Tower when they said the Seanchan weren't coming? And when they did, should she have tried to sit them down and understand them? "Gee, I wish you guys weren't trying to enslave us, but maybe you can tell us your perspective on why that's the right thing to do."

 

 

5. Rand isn’t a king. I have seen a number of comments to the effect of, “No leader should be unquestioned.” Interestingly, this apparently applies only when Rand is the leader in question. Questioning our teenage Amyrlin remains verboten.

Uh, the other characters question everything she does. Why do you think they don't? What are the Aes Sedai doing besides questioning her? Anyway, it's not about whether a leader should be "questioned", it's about crazy old Rand al'Thor, who's given plenty of reasons to call his judgment into doubt, coming up with a plan that's about the equivalent of incinerating a hospital and all its patients in order to fight heart disease.

 

 

But regardless, Rand is not a “leader.” He is the Dragon Reborn, the living fulfillment of the Prophecies, the Messiah come to save the World. All major characters accept this. He is the only hope of victory over the Shadow. He has been given special gifts to help him do this. And yet Egwene thinks he should, “Submit to the guidance of the Tower?” If there is a Second Coming of Jesus, will he be expected to “submit himself to the guidance” of Pat Robertson?

The analogy is pretty bad, because Jesus actually knows what he's doing. Until very recently, Rand had no special knowledge to guide him, and Egwene and the other characters have no way of knowing that he does now. The fact that he's the Light's only hope doesn't mean he's always right or that everyone should assume he's always right. This quote really does boil down to "How dare anyone question Rand al'Thor!" That's stupid.

 

 

6. She pits herself against the pattern. She believes that anyone opposing her must be swept up in Ta’veren effects. Because of course no one behaving rationally could possibly oppose HER! But lets say she’s right, and Nynaeve (for example) has been swept up in Rand’s ta’veren influence. What exactly is that influence? It is the freakin’ Pattern , the motive force of the Universe, bending itself around someone in order to accomplish something that must happen. So not only is Egwene’s judgment superior to that of the Dragon Reborn, the Aiel Wise One, all the centuries-old Aes Sedai, her friends, and every other human on the planet. Her judgment is superior to the working of the Universe itself. Okey-dokie.

There's no guarantee that the Light will win. That's not how it works. If the very universe itself is making this happen, it doesn't matter if she opposes it anyway. But, as far as we can see, that's not how it works. There are plenty of scenarios in which Rand could have died, and, whoops, game over for the Pattern. Like, for instance, that time a few hours before his conversation with Egwene in which he strongly considered destroying the entire world.

 

Whatever happens, her actions are play a significant role in whether the Dark One takes over creation or not. If the Pattern is guiding Nynaeve to accepting Rand's decision, why isn't it also guiding Egwene in her opposition to it? And if they're just two people making the decisions that make the most sense to them, then, well, she's seen what effects Rand has on people around him. (Hint: they're not always good. The ta'veren effects, among other things, cause large numbers of people to die in freak accidents.) Why should she or anyone assume that Rand's inadvertent ability to twist people's judgment is always going to work for the best?

 

 

7. She’s a good, old-fashioned sexist. No other way to put it, really. Again, we don’t need to simply divine this from her actions (although we certainly could.) We see her thoughts. And she continues to hold female chauvinist beliefs. It is instructive, I think, to see how much she objects to women being bonded to male channelers. Not Aes Sedai, that’s not how she thinks of them. WOMEN. But women bonding men is just fine. It's interesting, I think, that the female Foresaken don't have the same sorts of sexist thoughts in their POVs that Egwene does in hers. In this regard, at least, she is a worse person than Lanfear or Graendel.

I don't see how this makes her sexist.

 

 

8. Her actions toward Perrin in TAR. Are not just arrogant, they’re potentially deadly. Trying to tie him up in the middle of a battle? And don’t tell me, “Oh, she was just doing that while she pushed him out of the Dream.” In the first place, we haven’t seen anything to suggest that immobilizing someone is necessary or even helpful in pushing them out of the Dream. In the second place, she says something like, “I’m sorry Perrin, I’ll be back for you.” She was clearly planning on leaving him in place while she ran off and fought the battle.

Uh, yeah? She had no way of knowing Perrin had any ability in the Dream. Seeing her friend in a horribly dangerous conflict (one he didn't even know about) ought to make her freak out and try to keep him safe, especially given that she has seen exactly how dumb all three of those boys are about insisting on trying to keep her and other women safe even at risk to themselves. From her perspective, it wouldn't exactly be the first time one of them has bumbled off into some danger that she's better able to protect herself from.

 

 

10. No help for the Borderlands. Can’t allow that to get in the way of her gathering armies to herself. Because you know, she might need those armies if Rand, “Forces her hand.”

Egwene is awful. Simply awful. If there were justice in WOT world, she would be stilled and executed. But there is no justice in WOT world, or in modern publishing, so she’ll probably not even suffer any public embarrassment.

Who the fuck IS helping the Borderlands? Rand making a brief stop off and (at least temporarily) saving Maradon is not exactly solving the problem. Why isn't this his responsibility?

 

 

This irrational hatred people have for Egwene is just bizarre. She's somehow expected to either magically know things she has no way of knowing, or else just meekly nod and smile at whatever noted madman Rand al'Thor says. If not, she's a horrible arrogant bitch and she needs to be PUNISHED.

WTF?

She is a foolish girl who didn't appear to know her shoes! And the other AS are more so until we are able to see within BT where something had to happen into near future because Rand wouldn't had the time to deal with that!

[Jack Shaftoe]

But we almost never see Egwene worrying about the Last Battle itself while we constantly see her worrying what she is going to do after it. It's not as if the deal with the Wise Ones and the Windfinders is an isolated incident.

[randsc]

Have you been reading the same book as the rest of us?

 

Oh, please. Rand has come to her to tell her that in a month's time he plans to do something that may well end the world. Of course she should oppose that, given what she knows. And why is she supposed to be the one who comes up with a plan for Tarmon Gai'don? How could she possibly do that?

 

So she should oppose his idea, but not bother even TRYING to come up with another one? She should use the Browns for her political purposes, instead of setting them all to searching the Tower library for clues that would help her come up with a better plan? And if she isn't supposed to be the one who comes up with a plan for Tarmon Gaid'don (and I agree that she is not) who is the one? Oh, yeah! It's the freaking Dragon Reborn!

 

What the fuck? She's trying to create some unity between channelers of different cultures. What the hell is wrong with that? The post-Tarmon Gai'don world will be a whole lot better off if there's some leadership from the different factions of channelers, and if they're able to work together. Windfinders and Wise Ones who learn healing will be of tremendous benefit to their people, for one thing. Not to mention the obvious fact that a White Tower that's not strictly devoted to its own insular scheming will be better for the Westlands.

 

The comparison to redistricting doesn't even begin to make sense.

 

Um, no, that's not all she's trying to do. Her thoughts as she is negotiating with the Wise Ones and Windfinders make it clear that she is hoping to enhance the position of the Tower. in spite of the fact that the Wise Ones and Windfinders have done just fine for themselves, their peoples, and the world. Have done better by far, in fact, that the White Tower.

 

Blather abnout Osama bin Ladin]

 

Too silly to waste time on.

 

 

Which is, of course, the most sensible possible interpretation of what she sees.

 

The hell it is. The most sensible explanation is that Nynaeve has thought of something, or knows of something, that she herself has not. Only a complete narcissist would not even consider, for a second, that possibility.

 

the past, it's been pretty clear that she does know best, typically. If she weren't daring to defy the great Rand al'Thor no one would be holding her to this ridiculous standard of expecting her to ignore her own judgment. Should she have also listened to her captors in the White Tower when they said the Seanchan weren't coming? And when they did, should she have tried to sit them down and understand them? "Gee, I wish you guys weren't trying to enslave us, but maybe you can tell us your perspective on why that's the right thing to do."

 

No one expects her to ignore her own judgment. But again, we have access to her thoughts in her POVs. She never CONSIDERS that ANYONE ELSE might know something she does not, or might have a valid reason for not coming to the same conclusions she does.

 

 

 

Uh, the other characters question everything she does. Why do you think they don't? What are the Aes Sedai doing besides questioning her? Anyway, it's not about whether a leader should be "questioned", it's about crazy old Rand al'Thor, who's given plenty of reasons to call his judgment into doubt, coming up with a plan that's about the equivalent of incinerating a hospital and all its patients in order to fight heart disease.

 

 

That wasn't a reference to characters, but rather to readers/posters. Like, well, you.

 

And again, crazy or not, Rand is the chosen messiah figure, selected by the Pattern for this task. Egwene acknowledges this. And still thinks she knows better than he.

 

 

 

There's no guarantee that the Light will win. That's not how it works. If the very universe itself is making this happen, it doesn't matter if she opposes it anyway. But, as far as we can see, that's not how it works. There are plenty of scenarios in which Rand could have died, and, whoops, game over for the Pattern. Like, for instance, that time a few hours before his conversation with Egwene in which he strongly considered destroying the entire world.

 

Whatever happens, her actions are play a significant role in whether the Dark One takes over creation or not. If the Pattern is guiding Nynaeve to accepting Rand's decision, why isn't it also guiding Egwene in her opposition to it? And if they're just two people making the decisions that make the most sense to them, then, well, she's seen what effects Rand has on people around him. (Hint: they're not always good. The ta'veren effects, among other things, cause large numbers of people to die in freak accidents.) Why should she or anyone assume that Rand's inadvertent ability to twist people's judgment is always going to work for the best?

 

She either believes that the Wheel of Time spins the Pattern of the Universe, using the lives of men and women as the Threads, or she does not. If she were thinking to herself, "There is something about Rand that is warping people's judgment" than she would be right to question it. But she doesn't think that. She knows what it is to be ta'veren. The Pattern really does that which is required.

 

 

I don't see how this makes her sexist.

Um, then I don't even know what to say to you.

 

 

Uh, yeah? She had no way of knowing Perrin had any ability in the Dream. Seeing her friend in a horribly dangerous conflict (one he didn't even know about) ought to make her freak out and try to keep him safe, especially given that she has seen exactly how dumb all three of those boys are about insisting on trying to keep her and other women safe even at risk to themselves. From her perspective, it wouldn't exactly be the first time one of them has bumbled off into some danger that she's better able to protect herself from.

 

Perrin warms HER that the place is dangerous. It is obvious that he didn't just dream himself there. And how is binding him while she fights keeping him safe? Do the Foresaken and Dark Friends refuse to harm non-combatants?

 

 

Who the fuck IS helping the Borderlands? Rand making a brief stop off and (at least temporarily) saving Maradon is not exactly solving the problem. Why isn't this his responsibility?

 

In large part, it is. And he is trying to meet it, by gathering up the armies of the Borderlanders. But we know that he cannot go himself again and risk the open confrontation in the wrong place and time. And Egwene certainly has a responsibility as well. I wouldn't expect her to send her entire army, but she doesn't even bother sending the Greens. Because, you know, she might need to keep all her strength in Tar Valon, in case Rand, "Forces her hand."

 

This irrational hatred people have for Egwene is just bizarre. She's somehow expected to either magically know things she has no way of knowing, or else just meekly nod and smile at whatever noted madman Rand al'Thor says. If not, she's a horrible arrogant bitch and she needs to be PUNISHED.

 

She is a horrible arrogant bitch. Many posters have claimed that believing so is somehow anti-feminist. But I would turn that around. I honestly don't see any explanation for NOT seeing her in this light, except reflexive indentification with her due to her gender.

[Exy]

But we almost never see Egwene worrying about the Last Battle itself while we constantly see her worrying what she is going to do after it. It's not as if the deal with the Wise Ones and the Windfinders is an isolated incident.

Well, is it arrogant if she assumes, in general, that that's basically Rand's department and there's not much she can do to help? Planning for the world afterwards, as Elayne and Egwene have largely done throughout the series, makes perfect sense IMO.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Well, is it arrogant if she assumes, in general, that that's basically Rand's department and there's not much she can do to help? Planning for the world afterwards, as Elayne and Egwene have largely done throughout the series, makes perfect sense IMO.

 

it does? I thought the White Tower's raison d'etre was to protect the world against the Shadow. Egwene claims again and again that she needs a strong unified tower because the Last Battle is coming. Also, for one who thinks herself so much more capable than Rand (or anybody else), leaving the carrying out of the most important event of that Age totally to him would be more than a bit weird, especially considering how she doesn't trust his judgement at all.

[Exy]

it does? I thought the White Tower's raison d'etre was to protect the world against the Shadow.

Yes, and Elaida and many other Aes Sedai seemed to think they could lock Rand in a cage, wait for Tarmon Gai'don, and then go spill his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul. Fortunately, the new Amyrlin doesn't think this way. The Tower can't conduct the Last Battle the way Elaida wanted. I don't think her detractors would accept that, either.

 

Egwene claims again and again that she needs a strong unified tower because the Last Battle is coming. Also, for one who thinks herself so much more capable than Rand (or anybody else), leaving the carrying out of the most important event of that Age totally to him would be more than a bit weird, especially considering how she doesn't trust his judgement at all.

Maybe she's not as arrogant as people claim, and maybe she does trust his judgment, as long as he's not talking about planning to smash the seals on the Dark One's prison.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Yes, and Elaida and many other Aes Sedai seemed to think they could lock Rand in a cage, wait for Tarmon Gai'don, and then go spill his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul. Fortunately, the new Amyrlin doesn't think this way. The Tower can't conduct the Last Battle the way Elaida wanted. I don't think her detractors would accept that, either.

 

Strawman much? The choice isn't between "keep Rand in a box" and "leave absolutely everything to Rand", there is plenty of room in between those two stances. Egwene wants a leadership role in Tarmon Gaidon. We have seen it in her PoVs, we have seen it in her statements and in her behaviour. Maybe not the leadership role but she isn't going to just leave everything to Rand to deal with. So I don't think it's silly to expect her to worry about that more than she worries about the future after the Last Battle. As it is, she wants to have her cake and eat it too.

 

Maybe she's not as arrogant as people claim, and maybe she does trust his judgment, as long as he's not talking about planning to smash the seals on the Dark One's prison.

 

And maybe pigs can fly. Can you give me examples of Egwene trusting Rand's judgement about anything at all, let alone anything crucial?

[Jillain Sanche]

Robert Jordan is a far more subtle writer of character development than a goodly number of younger fans have yet understood. It's like the old saw: "Live and learn"; the longer you live, notwithstanding brain damage, you tend to learn something. (And yeah, some folks refuse, but let us not digress.) For the point of this argument, I submit that at least 80-90% of us should be able to keep on learning as we mature intellectually and emotionally over the decades to come.

 

And I therefore state, on the basis of my years traveling around the sun, that Jordan is extremely good at showing how any character has strengths and flaws. If a character shows growth and strength, yet makes an error in judgement based upon that character's limitations of focus or experience, then that is a very HUMAN character. No one is perfect; not even Rand al-Thor.

 

Robert Jordan's men and women are actually completely logical within the context and framework of their own world's history. And yet there are big reflections of reality of our own world. People do often tend to hold their own thoughts above all others'. 'Tis not always logical but it is typical.

 

Some of Egwene's recent thoughts or actions alarm us because we know more than she does. That does not make her a "b**ch" and anyone who says she is demonstrates their own lack of maturity.

 

there's too much hate for egwene amongst WOT fans. Simply because she dares oppose their lord and master rand al thor. Infact all of Egwene's haters are all rand al thor fans. After the gathering storm most WOT fans still hated egwene but had grudging respect for the way she reunited the tower and kicked the seanchan's ass. I mean Rand can't even sort out his own mess at the black tower resulting in Aes Sedai being turned to the shadow and dreadlords being formed. One poster on TOR's website actually put it succintly

posted by NiccMac Egwene's critics won't be satisfied until she and all the Aes Sedai grovel at Rand's feet. Wouldn't that make a great story? After all, Rand is the Dragon Reborn...the Champion of the Light...the last hope for humanity against the Dark One. He can do whatever he wants because, after all, he has prophecy on his side.

 

I have always liked all of the five Two Rivers kids, though it took longer for Nynaeve to grow on me. And it has been enjoyable to read and reread the developments of how they have grown up under constant struggle and danger where all of them are now in leadership positions.

And of course, in a war, often it is true that you may have generals all on the same side who are not in agreement to strategy and tactics. But for the purposes of a unified approach to battle, they will decide on a course of action and proceed.

 

That is no doubt what is going to happen at the Fields of Merrilor. They are not going to fight each other when the Last Battle is breaking out all around them! Something will happen to convince everyone present to unite around Rand's plan, and indeed his plan may be adjusted as needs suggest.

 

This irrational hatred people have for Egwene is just bizarre. She's somehow expected to either magically know things she has no way of knowing, or else just meekly nod and smile at whatever noted madman Rand al'Thor says. If not, she's a horrible arrogant bitch and she needs to be PUNISHED.

 

I think it is more a reflection of the maturity level of the "haters" and I also believe that many of them will have a totally different opinion of many characters and of Jordan's writing abilities when they've spun another 20 trips around the Sun.

[Exy]

Strawman much? The choice isn't between "keep Rand in a box" and "leave absolutely everything to Rand", there is plenty of room in between those two stances.

It's not a strawman, it's an excluded middle, and I wasn't saying there was no other option, I was just drawing a contrast.

 

 

Egwene wants a leadership role in Tarmon Gaidon. We have seen it in her PoVs, we have seen it in her statements and in her behaviour. Maybe not the leadership role but she isn't going to just leave everything to Rand to deal with. So I don't think it's silly to expect her to worry about that more than she worries about the future after the Last Battle. As it is, she wants to have her cake and eat it too.

She doesn't appear to want a leadership role in Tarmon Gai'don itself. I don't remember any POVs that indicated it, either, but she's showing with her actions that she wants to improve the White Tower over the long term. She wants a leadership role in the world after the Last Battle, no doubt, and she is trying to make it so the Tower is actually a useful organization rather than just some building where a bunch of women scheme in private over nothing useful.

 

And maybe pigs can fly. Can you give me examples of Egwene trusting Rand's judgement about anything at all, let alone anything crucial?

The only time I can think of where she seriously opposed his judgment was this one instance, and I think that was a reasonable thing given the circumstances.

[randsc]

Well, I've made 43 trips 'round the sun already, and I think Egwene is a bitch.

 

Which doesn't mean I think that Jordan or Sanderson can't write. On the contrary, I believe that she is being written this way on purpose. Other characters, including other female characters, have shown far more growth.

 

People take this too personally. If she's a bitch, it's not her FAULT. She's a character. If she's a bitch, there is likely a reason.

 

I still say that too much effort and too many words went into setting up the Halima/compulsion plotline for it to just die.

[Braden]

And maybe pigs can fly. Can you give me examples of Egwene trusting Rand's judgement about anything at all, let alone anything crucial?

I would settle for examples where she deferred to anyones superior experience. She is a 19 year old power obsessed insufferable bitch. Her POV's make her out this way, she truly thinks she does know best and let anyone else be damned.

 

There is NO excuse for her politically manuvering around Rand and raising armies against him with no plan of her own. Okay so lets say at the Fields of Merrilor they meet to discuss with the army leaders. Rand puts forth breaking the seals to create a new prison. Egwene and various leaders oppose, so Rand simply say "what do you suggest then, the world is dying I can't be everywhere at once and it is only a matter of time before the dark one destroys the seals himself"

 

Everyone turns to Egwene ... "Well, I hadn't thought about that. I was too busy to think up anything...."

 

The best thing is Rand EXPECTED her to do exactly what she did. She thought she was being clever and it played right into Rands hands...