Discuss Egwene

[tollstrm]

As a side note I'm feeling pretty confident that Egwene has some ta'veren in her. Maybe not full-fledged like the three boys but some--how else to explain a rural girl rising to the Amrylin seat in less than two years? Also how else to explain her complete lack of reaction to Rand's ta'veren nature, when the other Aes Sedai were almost cowering in their seats?

 

True, a strong person can resist (Tuon did, though I think she'd have a much tougher time of that now), but there were no indications from Egwene's POV that she felt anything at all.

 

Perhaps her reaction was influenced by Rand's taveren nature. She is gathering nations in one place, agreeing to meet with Rand. Isn't that what Rand needs? Everyone gathered to be led.

Also this quote from p. 85-

"The sisters and Warders reluctantly parted for him[Rand]. Egwene raised a hand to her head, feeling dizzy."

The effects of a taveren on someone usually leave them weak, dazed even.

 

Back to what this topic has become. I'm not a fan of Egwene because of her blatant hypocrisy. She has on numerous occasions scolded others for actions that she later commits herself and without any judgment for herself. She's been like that since her first appearance in tEotW. She has grown in other areas which have been neat to read.

I'm also bugged by the fact that she can't even imagine the others around her, mainly those she calls friends, as being capable of growing and having ideas better than her own. I just get a sense of self-centeredness when it comes to Egwene's PoV.

[Elan Tedronai]

almost everything people blame egwene for, is excused when rand does it. but rand has an excuse. he was going crazy.

 

ami doing this right?

[Zentari]

almost everything people blame egwene for, is excused when rand does it. but rand has an excuse. he was going crazy.

 

ami doing this right?

You forgot the trollface picture but yeah, it's good.

[blazetheearth]

almost everything people blame egwene for, is excused when rand does it. but rand has an excuse. he was going crazy.

 

ami doing this right?

 

I don't by that excuse for Rand, he was wrong on many of the things he did (especially what he did to Hurin in tGS). Here's the thing though,

 

He changed!

 

Is Egwene ever gong to change??

 

I don't find Rand blameless, I think he has a lot to apologize for and answer for and the best part about him in ToM is that HE REALIZED that.

 

He sought out Hurin and apologized to him (or we can infer that from the end of his meeting w/ the BL's), but please point out to me the quote that shows Egwene's remorse for and apology to Nynaeve for having 2 trollocs strip, threaten, and torment her in TAR. I've been trying to find it for over 2500 pages now and cannot find that apology to Nyn. Rand hangs Hurin in the air and threatens him and over 200,000 other people, but 2 months later he apologizes. Egwene tortures the woman she idolized while growing up, and there has been no apology for it since then (around a year).

 

Arguments that "If someone dislikes Egwene, they must be a Randfanboy." Just show how little respect the person posting has for others. It shows the attitude of "I will not bother reading the posts or attempting to see another person's point of view. I am right and any one that disagrees with me is Ta'veren struck."

 

BTW the last sentence that is in quotes is one of the biggest reasons that we dislike Egwene, because she thinks the exact same way. Maybe it shouldn't be a surprise that you defend her if you think that much like her.

[Danvighar]

Another perspective I thought about when reading the thread. Again, it's just another beam shoring up my previous position. So what? I still think it's a valid point:

 

Egwene, who was arguably the one most looking forward to the great big world outside the Two Rivers (even Mat wasn't enjoying the thought after the horrors of Winternight), has managed to never let go of the "Women's Circle"/"Village Council" arguing back and forth dynamic that occurred in Emond's Field. To her, the Dragon Reborn is just the Village Council on a much larger stage, and she's just the Wisdom to bully - er, 'convince' - him to do what anyone with sense would have seen long ago.

[Locke]

I think its not too far off to say that Egwene treats Rand like a farmer that is probably insane.

[sleepinghour]

If I were Egwene, I'm not sure I'd completely trust Nynaeve's assessment of Rand either. Not because of his ta'veren powers, but because Nynaeve cares for Rand and might be unwilling to see/admit that the kid she once babysat has gone off the deep end.

 

Like in Winter's Heart when Rand visits Nynaeve to drop off the access keys. Rand is exhibiting signs of what anyone would interpret as madness (staggering and holding a hand to his head because he got a vision of Mat). Lan is watching him like he's dangerous, while Nynaeve is wondering why Lan's acting that way. In TGS she defended Rand to Merise even though Rand had shouted at and threatened her the day before. Nynaeve is loyal to a fault sometimes (this applies to her friendship with Egwene as well).

[GB]

one thing i just realised

egwene just like tuon thinks "could tutors have trained him so quickly?"

 

that is what i dont like with her, she is a bit too much of a hyprocrite

[Zentari]

If I were Egwene, I'm not sure I'd completely trust Nynaeve's assessment of Rand either. Not because of his ta'veren powers, but because Nynaeve cares for Rand and might be unwilling to see/admit that the kid she once babysat has gone off the deep end.

 

Like in Winter's Heart when Rand visits Nynaeve to drop off the access keys. Rand is exhibiting signs of what anyone would interpret as madness (staggering and holding a hand to his head because he got a vision of Mat). Lan is watching him like he's dangerous, while Nynaeve is wondering why Lan's acting that way. In TGS she defended Rand to Merise even though Rand had shouted at and threatened her the day before. Nynaeve is loyal to a fault sometimes (this applies to her friendship with Egwene as well).

Does that mean that, by following that train of thought, you (and by extention) Egwene don't care about Rand ?

 

No, Nyn is not wondering why Lan is acting that way , she knows why BOTH of them are acting that way, she just can't stand it.

[Barid Bel Medar]

If I were Egwene, I'm not sure I'd completely trust Nynaeve's assessment of Rand either. Not because of his ta'veren powers, but because Nynaeve cares for Rand and might be unwilling to see/admit that the kid she once babysat has gone off the deep end.

 

Like in Winter's Heart when Rand visits Nynaeve to drop off the access keys. Rand is exhibiting signs of what anyone would interpret as madness (staggering and holding a hand to his head because he got a vision of Mat). Lan is watching him like he's dangerous, while Nynaeve is wondering why Lan's acting that way. In TGS she defended Rand to Merise even though Rand had shouted at and threatened her the day before. Nynaeve is loyal to a fault sometimes (this applies to her friendship with Egwene as well).

Does that mean that, by following that train of thought, you (and by extention) Egwene don't care about Rand ?

 

No, Nyn is not wondering why Lan is acting that way , she knows why BOTH of them are acting that way, she just can't stand it.

 

Yeah, Nynaeve knows exactly what is going on.

 

All of them do. The problem is that they just have to wish and hope that he doesnt go completely insane before TG.

 

Rand is the savior. Nynaeve is not "ignoring" his maddness, its just she couldnt do anything about it, and she had to stay positive, for Rand is their only chance. What else do you expect her to do? Remind him every day that he is going mad?

 

Its like someone with a terminal illness, you dont go pointing it out every day, you try your best to encourage them. On the inside of course, she knows he is dangerous, but theres no point in saying anything, nor doing anything.

 

Egwene could trust Nynaeve, she just didnt want to. That would mean Rand was right, and she is wrong. So she puts it down to Taveren. In her mind, breaking the seals IS maddness, as an 18yo girl, she is terrified of letting the DO free (and rightly so). She is trying to hang on to what she thinks is hope by refusing to believe. In retrospect its a bit silly, but human, and I dont think anyone can fault anyone for that. If someone said im going to lock you in a room with a crazed murderer (the DO) and then let him free from his chains so you can fight him, you would be damn scared, whether it is the right thing to do or not, anyone would want to avoid that scenario

[anotherfingolfin]

She is trying to hang on to what she thinks is hope by refusing to believe. In retrospect its a bit silly, but human, and I dont think anyone can fault anyone for that. If someone said im going to lock you in a room with a crazed murderer (the DO) and then let him free from his chains so you can fight him, you would be damn scared, whether it is the right thing to do or not, anyone would want to avoid that scenario

 

But that's the thing, people in positions such as she occupies, are expected to be able to get over, or at least plough through certain baser fears and failings that might stop a regular person. If you argue that being only 18, makes it more difficult to make those decisions, then I say, being 18 makes her less worthy of the post she holds. And since so many of the most important characters are very young people in power, the age-as-a-special-case is invalidated.

[sleepinghour]

Does that mean that, by following that train of thought, you (and by extention) Egwene don't care about Rand ?

To be clear, I'm not a fan of Egwene at all, but I can see why she'd doubt Nynaeve, Min, or anybody else who might just be in denial about Rand's mental state. Which I think is more a matter of personality than who cares for Rand more. Just like Elayne and Aviendha have accepted that Rand probably will die at Shayol Ghul, but Min has not.

 

Egwene probably thinks herself more capable than Nynaeve of putting her feelings aside and facing the cold hard truth. I think Egwene does care about Rand, as well as Nynaeve and Gawyn...it's just that it's never stopped her from treating them badly or assuming negative things. Which is one of the main reasons I'm not a fan of her character.

[Guest]

Its so annoying that this girl suffers from how she percieves men from the Womens Circle in emonds field. top that off with an aes sedais need to be in control, an amyrlin at that, she is one mixture of pure annoyance. really, she does need someone to put her in place, likewise Tuon. You may think im sexist here, but im not. these two cant see logic if it hit them in the face, and im certain that is going to happen _very soon_

[capuga]

one thing i just realised

egwene just like tuon thinks "could tutors have trained him so quickly?"

 

that is what i dont like with her, she is a bit too much of a hyprocrite

 

What is strange about this is that she should know Rand is clever and very capable all by himself. I certainly understand her questioning his sanity and many of his decisions, but why question his competence? She knows he has fought and killed forsaken. She knows that he took leadership of Tear and imposed much fairer laws in that country. She knows he took leadership of the Aiel. She knows he took leadership of Cairhien and handled the Great Game there decently. She knows he is king of Illian. By this point in the books she knows that he cleansed Saidin. She knows that he had training from Moiraine and is surrounded by Aes Sedai, nobles, and Wise Ones that can advise him (she doesn't know that he unwisely doesn't take much advantage of these assets). So why is she so surprised that he seems so capable and confident?

[wvlr2]

I don't really see the reason for all the Egwene bashing. Sure in some ways she is annoying, but really would it be credable for a "Milk Toast" type person to be able to be elected to such an organization & then not only turn the tables on those that elected her AND reforge a Broken Tower? Sure she questions Rands actions. It is her job to do that.

 

I do agree that she should at this point - seek more information before forming her opinion, but the way I read the sceane, she herself is been manipulated by Rand/Tavern. All the effort she is putting into gathering armies & leaders to the Field of M, is just what he needs. It even said at the end of that scene that she was breathless- obviously being "taverned" just like Galad.

 

 

 

What buggs me more is that she and all the main characters still do not really communicate! Rand/Perrin/Eggy/Elayne/Ny ++ and access TAR, they should be getting together in TAR or the real world and passing on information!

 

Will Eggy get with Perrin at the Field of M & ask him if he knows about the TAR Dome over TV? It might be a good idea for Eggy and Perrin to train each other a little as well - what a concept!

[Darth Krewl]

almost everything people blame egwene for, is excused when rand does it. but rand has an excuse. he was going crazy.

 

ami doing this right?

 

Hmm...maybe that's 'cause insane, mentally ill people are expected to act rather...eccentrically, to put it mildly?

 

Whereas, supposedly sane, mentally healthy people are expected to make, well, sane, mentally healthy and rational decisions?

 

Makes perfect sense, actually.

 

Also, every decision Rand has ever made, regardless on how good or bad, he's done with the interests of the whole world and Tarmon Gai'don at heart.

 

Egwene, on the other hand, has made her every decision (again, good or bad) just for the sake of the White Tower and w/o taking anyone else's interests into consideration.

[wvlr2]

I would like to add, sorry if someone else did. Eggy's dream had 2 Ravens hitting the WT. We also know Tuon is now planning another "hit". Didn't she also have a dream of leashed AS attacking the WT?

 

Will they be ready this time? I sure hope so! I hope that she talks to Perrin & finds out about the Dreamspike. Maybe they have one in the store room that they can use on the Seanchan.

[DemandredFO]

As has been stated too many times to count, just because Rand does something that doesn't give egwene license to do it to. As I have said before, Rand was going insane, does that excuse what he did no but it's a contributing factor. Egwene decisions as far as I can tell were made logically. Like nearly killing Nyneave, she was sane as far as I know when she made that decision.

Of Nyneave and Egwene, the one that I would've predicted to still screwed up 13 books in was Nyneave since she actually was the wisdom for a few years at least. The reason I see it that Nyneave is normal and Egwene isn't(unless compulsion is involved) is that Nyneave always cared. As far as I can see Egwene has only ever seen means-to-ends, in Emond's field Egwene came with the boys for an adventure, not for friendship sake. Rand, Mat, and perrin went because they had to and Nyneave came because she cared. I see her and Mat as somewhat alike. They both had facades but when push came to shove they were there. Like Tear, Mat went after the girls on his own, not because he was forced by any one.

I still see Egwene as Lanfear in some future turning.

[SuperFade]

It has been said already that Egwene has not gone through nearly the same amount of character development as the others. In fact, the reverse is true; she has actually forgotten most of what she learned from Moiraine and the Wise Ones. My greatest worry regarding Egwene is that she won't have her epihany, that she won't be taken down a peg, that she won't learn that the White Tower is not the centre of the world. Now, from what I've read, it looks like most of those who have pointed out Egwene's flaws believe that she's being written this way intentionally, and that we are supposed to feel angry at her arrogance and bullheadedness.

 

But I'm not so sure. Given Robert Jordan's rather idiosyncratic views and his difficulty with writing strong female characters, I have a sneaking fear that we're meant to sympathise and agree with Egwene.

[Darth Krewl]

I would like to add, sorry if someone else did. Eggy's dream had 2 Ravens hitting the WT. We also know Tuon is now planning another "hit". Didn't she also have a dream of leashed AS attacking the WT?

 

Will they be ready this time? I sure hope so! I hope that she talks to Perrin & finds out about the Dreamspike. Maybe they have one in the store room that they can use on the Seanchan.

 

And I sure hope they're not.

 

These women are in dire need of a wake up call and I've got a feeling that this will be it. Simply because they've spent so long isolated in their Tower, conspiring against each other, splitting up, dealing with that event, conspiring some more, rallying back together behind Egwene, conspiring yet again, that they would seem to have lost their edge, if they ever had it. I just don't think they have a really good idea of what they're up against.

 

Also, this would serve them well to face a potential threat from Taim's minions and other such threats in Tarmon Gai'don. 'cause at this point, after not being able to repel a Seanchan minor initial offensive (if not for Egwene), the Aes Sedai don't strike me as tough enough to face what is coming with the Forsaken and new Dreadlords coming at them in full force.

 

Perhaps if Egwene had spent more time readying her charges for such dangers, instead of spending her time at tea parties on Tel'aran'rhiod, negotiating future arrangements with non-affiliated female channelers, then the AS would be ready for the storm gathering around their Tower. But at this point, I just don't see them ready to withstand the very serious threats facing them.

[Elan Tedronai]

egwene is lanfear? Now i have heard it all.

[dwn]

one thing i just realised

egwene just like tuon thinks "could tutors have trained him so quickly?"

 

that is what i dont like with her, she is a bit too much of a hyprocrite

 

What is strange about this is that she should know Rand is clever and very capable all by himself. I certainly understand her questioning his sanity and many of his decisions, but why question his competence? She knows he has fought and killed forsaken. She knows that he took leadership of Tear and imposed much fairer laws in that country. She knows he took leadership of the Aiel. She knows he took leadership of Cairhien and handled the Great Game there decently. She knows he is king of Illian. By this point in the books she knows that he cleansed Saidin. She knows that he had training from Moiraine and is surrounded by Aes Sedai, nobles, and Wise Ones that can advise him (she doesn't know that he unwisely doesn't take much advantage of these assets). So why is she so surprised that he seems so capable and confident?

 

Egwene was referring to his manner and inflection more than his knowledge and accomplishments. A person with many years of education (i.e. Lews Therin) sounds and acts differently than a country bumpkin with a two year crash course in politics (i.e. Rand).

 

-- dwn

[SvetSedi]

I hope that she talks to Perrin & finds out about the Dreamspike. Maybe they have one in the store room that they can use on the Seanchan.

I would love to see the Seanchan take a big fall like this. In ToM she was talking of hitting the WT with everything she had - I would love to see her try and loose it all (Channelers) just like that. AND Traveling with it!

 

Edited to add:

 

I just re-read this chapter. Tuon says: "I want each and EVERY damane we control to be brought back to the city. We will train them in this meathod of Traveling. And then we will go, in force, to the WT."

 

Emphysis added.

 

it really points to the possablity that the above could occur! PLEASE! PLEASE! PLEASE!

[Durinax]

I would like to see how they would react to the weaves not working

[SvetSedi]

I would like to see how they would react to the weaves not working

Me too.

 

If they took all of their damane and many of their sul'dam to the WT and they were captured. Then the Seanchan would only be left with sul'dam. (they have many more sul'dam than damane. With only sul'dam, the only way that they have channelers, would be for the sul.dam to make the "sacrifice", to become active channelers. If they "sacrificed" themselves for the Seanchan Empire, how could the people continue thinking of channelers as "animals". Especially, if Tuon lead the way.

 

Does that make sense?