Mat's Arc

[Kaznen]

Something strange I just thought of. When the AS left to return to TR why didn't Mat send a letter to Bode with them? They were already going in that direction and he is concerned for her, and she is very concerned for him (remember in the aftermath of Rand's visit to the inn in LoC). When Perrin was going back to TR Mat sent well wishes for his family so why not do the same to some AS going to TV (one of whom openly admits she owes him big time).

[wireguy]

@MyKillK

 

The tower rescue sequence should have been the focus of the book? How many chapters do you think this could be drawn out to and still not be painfully boring to read? While the build up to the reappearance of Moiraine has been long and drawn out, mostly by the fan base mind you, the rescue could not have lasted half the book and still maintained any kind of integrity.

[IceGhost13]

I think we should also remember that the last three books were originally meant to be one. Yes, Sanderson and Team Jordan are splitting it, but this happened after the fact. If RJ did write this (and this has been confirmed) he was unaware that the book would be split. So he didn't write the scene to be a final climax - just an important scene. Really, if A Memory of Light had remained one volume, it would have likely gotten more attention than a lot of things. And because this was such an important scene, I can see why RJ would have written it in its entirety early. I can also see why Sanderson would not have altered it to fit the more drawn-out pace of three volumes opposed to one.

[MyKillK]

@MyKillK

 

The tower rescue sequence should have been the focus of the book? How many chapters do you think this could be drawn out to and still not be painfully boring to read? While the build up to the reappearance of Moiraine has been long and drawn out, mostly by the fan base mind you, the rescue could not have lasted half the book and still maintained any kind of integrity.

 

We've been waiting 7 books for Moiraine's return, so yea I think it could have had some more chapters. She's obviously going to be very very important. Compared to all the chapters spent on Perrin/Faile/Galad (There has got to be at least 200 pages worth...), it was a drop in the bucket. It wouldn't have to necessarily be just the rescue itself. More time in Caemlyn preparing to leave, more time in the tower, more time spent with Moiraine after her rescue. I don't think it should have been all right at the end of the book, it made it feel isolated. One chapter he's talking about boots for 3 pages and half way through the next chapter he's suddenly standing directly in front of the Tower.

[waffle]

@MyKillK

 

The tower rescue sequence should have been the focus of the book? How many chapters do you think this could be drawn out to and still not be painfully boring to read? While the build up to the reappearance of Moiraine has been long and drawn out, mostly by the fan base mind you, the rescue could not have lasted half the book and still maintained any kind of integrity.

 

We've been waiting 7 books for Moiraine's return, so yea I think it could have had some more chapters. She's obviously going to be very very important. Compared to all the chapters spent on Perrin/Faile/Galad (There has got to be at least 200 pages worth...), it was a drop in the bucket. It wouldn't have to necessarily be just the rescue itself. More time in Caemlyn preparing to leave, more time in the tower, more time spent with Moiraine after her rescue. I don't think it should have been all right at the end of the book, it made it feel isolated. One chapter he's talking about boots for 3 pages and half way through the next chapter he's suddenly standing directly in front of the Tower.

 

?

 

So you want 3-4 chapters of Mat walking through the woods? Perhaps 4-5 chapters of Mat throwing dice to find the way through the corridors? Then perhaps the picnic after getting out of the Tower could of been a 100 pages too?

 

 

Perrin/Faile/Galad was a bit drawn out but that was because it was about growth and people changing.

 

TOG was Mat being Mat, Thom being Thom, Noal being... Jain and Moiraine taking a nap. Not a whole lot to draw out.

[mcbernier]

A few things bother me about the ToG segment. These might have already been mentioned (apologies).

 

1. why was getting out such a big deal? Why couldn't he have brought an asha'man to make a gate to get out? Am I missing something?

 

2. I think this was mentioned, but it seemed that Mat, a master tactician, hardly planned at all. It would have been far more interesting (in my opinion) to have seen him sit down and plan the hell out of this, just like any other military assault. He was told he could only bring 2 people with him, or they would fail--well, I could have easily seen Mat just say "we'll see about that" and bring a quarter of the band with him, plus a full contingent of people who could make gates (Asha'man or otherwise). Now that would have been interesting, and it would have played up Mat's military genius, rather than to fall back on "luck."

 

3. I think his luck was overused. It's almost turning into: "Mat, trust your feelings, the force will guide you." He needs a way out: "hey, I'll guess! I'm always right!" I love LOVE the idea of his luck, I think it's a genius thing for Jordan to have given him. I love the way the dice rattle around in his head, and then finally settle down when he makes some monumental decision. But if "luck" is not used carefully, and somewhat sparingly, it can easily turn into a joke (and in my opinion it bordered on it here). What are the limits? Can he just think of anything and find a way, without planning, without preparation? that would be silly. The luck needs to take the back seat to his military brilliance, or it risks becoming a caricature. His military brilliance would be superfluous--if his luck really is that powerful, then he doesn't need anything else, he can just guess his way to victory with every step.

 

That's all I have at the moment. All in all, I enjoyed the book. I have the above criticisms only because I care :-)

[capuga]

A few things bother me about the ToG segment. These might have already been mentioned (apologies).

 

1. why was getting out such a big deal? Why couldn't he have brought an asha'man to make a gate to get out? Am I missing something?

 

2. I think this was mentioned, but it seemed that Mat, a master tactician, hardly planned at all. It would have been far more interesting (in my opinion) to have seen him sit down and plan the hell out of this, just like any other military assault. He was told he could only bring 2 people with him, or they would fail--well, I could have easily seen Mat just say "we'll see about that" and bring a quarter of the band with him, plus a full contingent of people who could make gates (Asha'man or otherwise). Now that would have been interesting, and it would have played up Mat's military genius, rather than to fall back on "luck."

 

3. I think his luck was overused. It's almost turning into: "Mat, trust your feelings, the force will guide you." He needs a way out: "hey, I'll guess! I'm always right!" I love LOVE the idea of his luck, I think it's a genius thing for Jordan to have given him. I love the way the dice rattle around in his head, and then finally settle down when he makes some monumental decision. But if "luck" is not used carefully, and somewhat sparingly, it can easily turn into a joke (and in my opinion it bordered on it here). What are the limits? Can he just think of anything and find a way, without planning, without preparation? that would be silly. The luck needs to take the back seat to his military brilliance, or it risks becoming a caricature. His military brilliance would be superfluous--if his luck really is that powerful, then he doesn't need anything else, he can just guess his way to victory with every step.

 

That's all I have at the moment. All in all, I enjoyed the book. I have the above criticisms only because I care :-)

 

1. We haven't seen any indication that Traveling into Finnland is possible. All evidence is that the 2 redstone doorways and the ToG are the only ways in and out. Plus he had already agreed on the 3 that would enter (more on this below).

 

2. Mat had read a letter from a woman that he thought was dead who wrote a letter that basically predicted her death and subsequent events. This would make Mat think that she has some kind of special knowledge of the future (which she did). He had also noticed her to be a clever and resourceful Aes Sedai (a group that he respects and fears a little even if he doesn't trust them) during their time together. All info he has about the situation indicates that he should listen to Moiraine's instructions and only bring 3 people or they were doomed.

 

And he did spend a fair amount of time planning. They spend weeks in Caemlyn looking for stories and legends about the ToG. They brought with them the fire, iron, and music they needed to cheat. The problem is that Mat knows that Finnland and the Finns do not operate under normal rules so it is really hard to plan when you can't predict what your opponent will do or even know what the natural laws of the place are.

 

3. I can see your point here, he does seem to be relying a little too much on his luck. But he also knew that his luck would probably be the deciding factor. Even the legendary Birgitte didn't get out of the ToG alive so he knew that it would take more than just cleverness and physical prowess to survive. He knew his luck was the necessary X factor and so he counted on it as much as possible.

[Locke]

Too much luck? About the only thing he used his luck for was navigating the Tower. And fighting the gholam was almost exclusively planning and skill as well.

[mcbernier]

1. We haven't seen any indication that Traveling into Finnland is possible. All evidence is that the 2 redstone doorways and the ToG are the only ways in and out. Plus he had already agreed on the 3 that would enter (more on this below).

 

2. Mat had read a letter from a woman that he thought was dead who wrote a letter that basically predicted her death and subsequent events. This would make Mat think that she has some kind of special knowledge of the future (which she did). He had also noticed her to be a clever and resourceful Aes Sedai (a group that he respects and fears a little even if he doesn't trust them) during their time together. All info he has about the situation indicates that he should listen to Moiraine's instructions and only bring 3 people or they were doomed.

 

And he did spend a fair amount of time planning. They spend weeks in Caemlyn looking for stories and legends about the ToG. They brought with them the fire, iron, and music they needed to cheat. The problem is that Mat knows that Finnland and the Finns do not operate under normal rules so it is really hard to plan when you can't predict what your opponent will do or even know what the natural laws of the place are.

 

3. I can see your point here, he does seem to be relying a little too much on his luck. But he also knew that his luck would probably be the deciding factor. Even the legendary Birgitte didn't get out of the ToG alive so he knew that it would take more than just cleverness and physical prowess to survive. He knew his luck was the necessary X factor and so he counted on it as much as possible.

 

Thanks for the comments. Fun stuff! Yeah, you may be right. Let me add a few more thoughts, though.

 

1. You bring up a good point. It would have ben nice to see him at least toy with the idea, and then find a way to dismiss it. The possibility that you can't Travel into Finnland may not be enough of a reason to not at least want to try it--possibilities are not facts, and even if Travelling into Finnland doesn't work, maybe Travelling out could. But hey, what do I know?

 

2. You may be right. But he still could have planned the hell out of it, even if only three could go. He's a tactical genius. Of course, we could say that "shooting from the hip" is sometimes part of mat's style (because of the "luck" factor). But I don't know.

 

3. Luck. I can clearly see that mat would rely on his luck here (but not at the expense of careful planning), and that he thought it would be the deciding factor. I think you're right. But I guess I stick to my original point, that the luck thing should be handled carefully. It's not a spider sense. although sometimes he "feels" lucky. It doesn't give him knowledge of what the right thing to do is to achieve his goals, does it? That would be very weird. He's just lucky. VERY lucky. But this can turn into a farce. Can "luck" tell him which doorway to take in order to get out? No; luck doesn't tell him anything. He chooses randomly, and more often than not he's going to be right. I'm struggling a bit to express this (first time I have thought about it), but I guess it seems like he's starting to control his luck, using it like a super power or something. Using it instead of planning. As I said before, I love it. I'm just afraid it's going to become gimmicky (ah! that's the word I was looking for).

 

Then again, he lost an eye--that wasn't so lucky! :-)

[mcbernier]

Too much luck? About the only thing he used his luck for was navigating the Tower. And fighting the gholam was almost exclusively planning and skill as well.

 

Hi! You bring up something that helps me clarify what I'm trying to say: you wrote: "he used his luck." That's just it, I don't think luck is something he uses, but something he relies on. He doesn't use his luck to win at dice, he relies on it. Luck is not an active force (is it??), coming to bat for him, but it's passive, something that he doesn't control, something he doesn't whip out when he needs it. It's not The Force (a power he can harness and use); it's just luck. Does that make sense?

[Locke]

Perhaps it's more accurate to say that he uses methods which will invoke his luck?

[Danvighar]

Remember, Mat was of the opinion - however incorrect - that the Foxes could get into his head. I don't think he dared plan anything out on paper or get too detailed, just in case. And his luck was always strongest when there was the least order, the most chance - as in, no plans.

[mcbernier]

Remember, Mat was of the opinion - however incorrect - that the Foxes could get into his head. I don't think he dared plan anything out on paper or get too detailed, just in case. And his luck was always strongest when there was the least order, the most chance - as in, no plans.

 

Good point about the Foxes getting in his head! I hadn't thought of that. That's certainly something that could have been brought out in the story.

[Hatrel]

Remember, Mat was of the opinion - however incorrect - that the Foxes could get into his head. I don't think he dared plan anything out on paper or get too detailed, just in case. And his luck was always strongest when there was the least order, the most chance - as in, no plans.

 

Good point about the Foxes getting in his head! I hadn't thought of that. That's certainly something that could have been brought out in the story.

 

It was mentioned a few times in Mat's POV throughout tGS and ToM that he feared that. He considered that the foxes were able to put all those memories into his head because they "stole" them from the men that they had belonged to. He figured that each of them must have used the Doorway to get to the ToG and that the foxes basically rode in the back of their heads catalogueing the memories for future use. he was frantic about not coming up with too much in the way of a plan so that they could not anticipate his actions.

[ROB_88]

haven't read the whole topic but i just have to bring this up.

the whole thing about Mat's ahanderei is actually a key totally reminded me of a point in the show Red vs Blue

[Mrmarkjackson]

Long time stalker, first time poster.

 

What's the deal with Mat's ashandarei? I should go back and look but I thought the whole thing was made out of Callandor. It was all black right? But in this book apparently the shaft is made out of wood, and catches on fire. Maybe just the head was power forged and not the shaft? I could have sworn the whole thing was made from the one power.

[Val Mickey]

Whole thing was made out of Callandor? Seriously?

[Aquarius]

Whole thing was made out of Callandor? Seriously?

He probably means "cuendillar" instead of Callandor ..

 

Anyway. No, the spear is power-wrought, that's for sure, but Cuendillar ?? don't think so.

But I agree with above poster : I also thought that the Ashandarei was all metal. The wooden shaft surprised me.

[ROB_88]

i assume you meant Cuendillar, and no it's not.

 

however i am also a bit confused about the shaft burning, is that part not also Power-made?

[Erunion]

I'm pretty sure it was described as wood earlier in the series, but it was also described as power-forged.

So the entire spear should be invulnerable, should it not?

[Ala Rubra]

Too much luck? About the only thing he used his luck for was navigating the Tower. And fighting the gholam was almost exclusively planning and skill as well.

 

Hi! You bring up something that helps me clarify what I'm trying to say: you wrote: "he used his luck." That's just it, I don't think luck is something he uses, but something he relies on. He doesn't use his luck to win at dice, he relies on it. Luck is not an active force (is it??), coming to bat for him, but it's passive, something that he doesn't control, something he doesn't whip out when he needs it. It's not The Force (a power he can harness and use); it's just luck. Does that make sense?

 

I have to disagree somewhat. He's been actively "controlling" it for a long time now. It's not that he turns it on or off or up or whatever, but once he recognized that his luck ALWAYS gives him the result he wants on actions that rely on some amount of random chance, he can simply change what result he wants. If he wants to lose at dice, he WILL lose. If he wants to win at dice, but not in an improbable manner(like always throwing sixes), he succeeds. If he wants to throw dozens of coins into the air and get all heads, he will. By changing the result he wants to achieve, he changes the outcome achieved. In the ToG, he actively decided that he'd roll two dice and use the result, based on specific criteria, to decide which path he should take, and it worked.

 

I would say that qualifies as "using" his luck.

[moratcorlm]

'Need' is perhaps a better word than 'want'; they usually coincide, but when they don't the former seems to take precedence.

[Mrmarkjackson]

Whole thing was made out of Callandor? Seriously?

He probably means "cuendillar" instead of Callandor ..

 

Anyway. No, the spear is power-wrought, that's for sure, but Cuendillar ?? don't think so.

But I agree with above poster : I also thought that the Ashandarei was all metal. The wooden shaft surprised me.

 

Yeah, that is what I meant, sorry for the confusion. Either way if it was power wrought, it shouldn't have burned. Maybe it was a decoy? He didn't want it to fall into the Gholams hands if he died?

[Charred Knight]

I'm pretty sure it was described as wood earlier in the series, but it was also described as power-forged.

So the entire spear should be invulnerable, should it not?

 

 

As shown in this book power-wrought weapons strengthen metal, and increase sharpness by using the power in a certain way during the shaping process. You can't do that with wood.

[Androl]

There were two mentions of Mat in the book that I am curious about - if they already occured. Otherwise, I guess that they are both in aMoL.

 

First, Perrins vision of "Many Mats running around and a guy with a knife trying to sneak up on him".

Second in the Dark Phrophacy at the end - Any guess what the "One-Eyed Fool walks the halls of mourning" means?