Mat's Arc

[smileyman]

How about this Callandor to break the old seals, Mah'alleinir for creating new seals, the Ashandarei as the key to lock the prison.

 

Um, the seals on the DO's prison? No need for Callandor. Those things are ridiculously fragile at this point. As for the rest...I'm going to assume the smiley there means this is just a joke.

 

The focal points are ridiculously fragile. We don't know for sure about whatever constraints are actually on the prison itself.

 

It's not an entirely preposterous notion actually. The three ta'veren have to be there or Rand will fail. It's not unreasonable to assume that the master blacksmith will have something to do with creating a new prison/seals. It's also not unreasonable to assume that the AShandarei could have a key role to play as well, especially since it seems to work magically on things not of this world. We do know that the DO's prison isn't actually in the world but merely touching it. To now have all three ta'averen with super weapons and only use them to fight off Shadowspawn? Seems highly unlikely to me, especially since Perrin just barely got his.

[Crael123]

How about this Callandor to break the old seals, Mah'alleinir for creating new seals, the Ashandarei as the key to lock the prison.

 

Watch this happen. Watch. ROFL.

 

 

Anyway. Today I got the book and read the Tower sequence.... Wow. Absolutely FLOORED. Amazing stuff. By far one of the best scenes of the series. I will get back to you when i finish the entire book.

[Blood&BloodyAshes]

So confused about one part of the book.. The badger conversation between Mat and Perrin. Where did Mat come from.. why did he ask about Thom and Nyneve.. Shouldnt Mat have been with Thom. Maybe im missing the obvious..

[Blood&BloodyAshes]

How about this Callandor to break the old seals, Mah'alleinir for creating new seals, the Ashandarei as the key to lock the prison.

Oh man best theory I have ever seen. Money!

[Durinax]

So confused about one part of the book.. The badger conversation between Mat and Perrin. Where did Mat come from.. why did he ask about Thom and Nyneve.. Shouldnt Mat have been with Thom. Maybe im missing the obvious..

he came from a gateway. and I dont know why he asked after Thom and Nyn

[Bob T Dwarf]

So confused about one part of the book.. The badger conversation between Mat and Perrin. Where did Mat come from.. why did he ask about Thom and Nyneve.. Shouldnt Mat have been with Thom. Maybe im missing the obvious..

he came from a gateway. and I dont know why he asked after Thom and Nyn

 

Yes, he came through a gateway. Mat isn't the one asking about Thom and Nynaeve, Perrin is. Those questions are in their own paragraph, which means they are spoken by Perrin. Note that the next paragraph is Mat's reply. Heres that sequence noting who is speaking:

"Light, Mat," Perrin said. "It seems like it's been forever!"

 

"A lifetime," Mat said. "Maybe two. I lose count. Anyway, Caemlyn is already buzzing with news of your arrival. Figured the only way to get in a word of welcome was to slip through that gateway and find you before everyone else." Mat picked up his spear and rested it on his shoulder, blade to the back.

 

"What have you been doing? Where have you been? Is Thom with you? What about Nynaeve?" ( all spoken by Perrin )

 

"So many questions," Mat said. "How safe is this camp of yours?"

 

"Safe as any place." { Perrin again }

 

"Not safe enough," Mat grew solemn. ...

 

Then Mat goes on to warn Perrin about assassins and arrange for them to meet at The Happy Throng in Caemlyn where they will catch-up and he will answer Perrin's questions. Then Mat jogs off back through the still-open gateway.

[Dunedain Fal]

What was the Halls of Mourning that Mat walked through? Was it the Tower of Ghenjei?

[Blood&BloodyAshes]

So confused about one part of the book.. The badger conversation between Mat and Perrin. Where did Mat come from.. why did he ask about Thom and Nyneve.. Shouldnt Mat have been with Thom. Maybe im missing the obvious..

he came from a gateway. and I dont know why he asked after Thom and Nyn

 

Yes, he came through a gateway. Mat isn't the one asking about Thom and Nynaeve, Perrin is. Those questions are in their own paragraph, which means they are spoken by Perrin. Note that the next paragraph is Mat's reply. Heres that sequence noting who is speaking:

"Light, Mat," Perrin said. "It seems like it's been forever!"

 

"A lifetime," Mat said. "Maybe two. I lose count. Anyway, Caemlyn is already buzzing with news of your arrival. Figured the only way to get in a word of welcome was to slip through that gateway and find you before everyone else." Mat picked up his spear and rested it on his shoulder, blade to the back.

 

"What have you been doing? Where have you been? Is Thom with you? What about Nynaeve?" ( all spoken by Perrin )

 

"So many questions," Mat said. "How safe is this camp of yours?"

 

"Safe as any place." { Perrin again }

 

"Not safe enough," Mat grew solemn. ...

 

Then Mat goes on to warn Perrin about assassins and arrange for them to meet at The Happy Throng in Caemlyn where they will catch-up and he will answer Perrin's questions. Then Mat jogs off back through the still-open gateway.

 

You are great! Thanks so much. Guess I should have caught that myself.. woops!

[dwn]

(I didn't notice Bob T Dwarf's answer above... and apparently I can't delete my own posts.)

 

-- dwn

[wpflug]

EDIT: Moving this to the newly created Seanchan thread.

 

This is more of a Seanchan post, but this seemed to be the best thread for it. The issue of the damane is obviously significant, and it is an issue that I expect to see resolved before the Seanchan join with Rand's forces for the Last Battle. We know that the Seanchan originally collared the Aes Sedai to prevent them from using the One Power to gain dominion over non-channelers and to give Luthair's army a significant boost in firepower. The damane are still viewed as too dangerous and useful to allow them autonomy. I think that the combination of Mat's foxhead medallion and his cannons will allow the Seanchan to free the damane.

 

In the other three societies in which we have significant insight into the lives of channelers, we know that the women are restrained by social structure (the Oaths, the cultural prohibition against Wise Ones participating in battle, the strictly defined command structure of the Athan Miere). It is unlikely that such a structure would spontaneously arise were the Seanchan to suddenly free the damane, so they need something else to insure that they don't revert back to the continent's original state (warring Aes Sedai vying for power). The foxhead medallion provides a unique solution to this problem. I see this playing out in one of two ways:

 

a) The Seanchan require all channelers in Seanchan territory to wear a copy of Elayne's flawed medallion, preventing them from channeling.

b) The Seanchan make copies of Mat's original medallion available to all Seanchan citizens, granting them immunity to weaves.

 

I find b) to be significantly more likely, primarily because a) seems to be unenforceable. The two disadvantages to b) are that you have to produce millions of Ter'angreal and channelers can still drop a rock on your head. Fortunately, the Seanchan already have a booming Ter'angreal industry from producing a'dam. The second problem will be addressed later.

 

The Seanchan armies rely on the firepower than damane provide, and that is not an advantage that they will easily give up. In a stroke of luck, Mat has just discovered gunpowder, an invention that will make the damane obsolete. Cannon are capable of being every bit as devastating as damane (particularly given that damane cannot form a circle), and they can be made in much greater numbers. From Aviendha's visions, we know that personal firearms are right around the corner (these will negate the rock on your head issue from above). The Seanchan way of waging war is about to become extinct. The proliferation of gunpowder will make the damane unnecessary from a military perspective.

 

In conclusion, I believe that Rand will be able to trade the knowledge of Mat's medallion and cannon in exchange for a promise from Tuon to begin the process of freeing the damane (presumably Wise Ones, Aes Sedai, and Windfinders immediately, with the native Seanchan slowly integrated back into society after the Last Battle).

 

Thoughts?

[Bob T Dwarf]

My guess is that even with Mat's help, any accommodation with the Seanchan will be very difficult to achieve. As far as they can tell, their society aint broke so they will have no interest in "fixing" it. The societal insanity is so pervasive that people try to find ways to become slaves, and da'mane and sul'dam alike find their situation proper and necessary. That kind of thinking will take generations to change.

 

Thus I don't see any change to the da'mane situation before the series ends.

[dwn]

My guess is that even with Mat's help, any accommodation with the Seanchan will be very difficult to achieve. As far as they can tell, their society aint broke so they will have no interest in "fixing" it. The societal insanity is so pervasive that people try to find ways to become slaves, and da'mane and sul'dam alike find their situation proper and necessary. That kind of thinking will take generations to change.

 

Thus I don't see any change to the da'mane situation before the series ends.

 

I half agree. I can see Tuon losing most of her damane in a second White Tower attack where the Aes Sedai were better prepared, which will solve (somewhat) the immediate situation. It won't necessarily stop Tuon from leashing women, nor will it affect the Seanchan mainland. The ingrained attitudes about channellers will certainly take generations to fade.

 

The da'covale deal is a bit more complex, because it covers a broad range of slavery. It's certainly not going to be resolved anytime soon, but I can see it slowly falling out of favour after extended contact with other societies.

 

-- dwn

[NetSlider]

The whole situation with Seanchen and WT more and more looks like Cold War era Germany - sneaking people that can channel out of the Seanchen territory into WT territory to save them...

[randsc]

Question for the Mat experts:

 

Does Mat know his sister Bodewin is a novice Aes Sedai? I can't remember if we ever saw him learn of this.

[NetSlider]

Question for the Mat experts:

 

Does Mat know his sister Bodewin is a novice Aes Sedai? I can't remember if we ever saw him learn of this.

 

 

 

Yes, Rand tells him when he sends him to Salidar with Avi. Well, actually Rand wasn't sure where she will be trained.

[Luckystrike]

A thought striked me after reading ToM, and what led to the thought was the part in ToG, especially the scene where Mat trying to remember everything from his previous meeting with the foxes; what he had been given, which led to the revelation about the Ashendarai (Sp?).

 

All that time I was thinking; they said he would die twice, and he'd already died in Rhuidean, so he would have to die in ToG for Moiraine to be rescued. But when Jain/Noal sacrificed himself I was proven wrong, and with the revelation about the spear I forgot it that moment.

 

Then later, trying to sleep, after finishing ToM the "die-twice-thing" came up in my head. Then I realised, he is going to die in the Last Battle as a hero and legend. I can now really see it happening.

 

Of all Ta'veren, Mat's the only that had the hero-thing going on; like Jain, or Birgitte, where those interesting legends are made from. He even got famous, and there is rumours and almost like legends being told about him already.

So him dying would actually make sense; he would die as the hero he was and become a legend. I even think he would become a hero of the horn.

 

Now I know maybe will not agree on my theory of different reasons and one would be; what about Tuon? Why having so much build-ups and things occuring to him marrying her then dying. Well, maybe his dying would make Tuon grief and make changes to the Seanchan, to realise something. And the Seanchan will remember him as the honorable Prince of the Ravens.

 

So we have on who is going to die according to my theories; Perrin I think would live on with Faile and helping the world get stable after the Last Battle.

 

Rand is really hard; maybe he would die, maybe he will not. That's a interesting one to read.

 

All these theories...

[Cirin]

While I think it would be plausible for him to die, Luckystrike, I also know that the possible outrigger novels, if they are written, are supposed to be about Mat and Tuon returning to reclaim Seandar... so that seems to rule out the possibility of him dying (but, you never know). Also, even if he were to die, I don't know that he is really a Hero of the Horn... I think in some regards Rand, Perrin, and Mat, are not really heroes of the Horn, they're something more. When you look at the mythical archetypes that represent the heroes, you get people like King Arthur, Robin Hood, Miyamoto Musashi, etc. - these type of heroic figures from our own legends. When you look at the archetypes for the three ta'veren, though, you see them emulating people like Odin, Thor, Tyr, Christ, Loki, etc. Whereas the first batch are all heroes, the second batch of archetypes are all considered deities. Thus you seem to get the sense that these three are not really bound to the Pattern in the same way that the Heroes of the Horn are, they are almost an extension of the Pattern itself, like some form of defense mechanism. I think, in that regard, they're more than just Heroes... they represent the mythological Pantheons of old. After all, Mat is the Hornsounder. That is significant. Artur Hawkwing mentions they can't ride without the Dragon Banner. That is significant. Perrin... well, yeah. But you see my point. They seem as necessary for the Horn to sound as the Horn itself is, so I think they're on a slightly higher level than the Heroes of the Horn.

 

But, maybe not. I just always liked myth, so I noticed the difference in significance of the archetypes... might be nothing.

[Cillian]

A thought striked me after reading ToM, and what led to the thought was the part in ToG, especially the scene where Mat trying to remember everything from his previous meeting with the foxes; what he had been given, which led to the revelation about the Ashendarai (Sp?).

 

All that time I was thinking; they said he would die twice, and he'd already died in Rhuidean, so he would have to die in ToG for Moiraine to be rescued. But when Jain/Noal sacrificed himself I was proven wrong, and with the revelation about the spear I forgot it that moment.

 

Then later, trying to sleep, after finishing ToM the "die-twice-thing" came up in my head. Then I realised, he is going to die in the Last Battle as a hero and legend. I can now really see it happening.

 

Of all Ta'veren, Mat's the only that had the hero-thing going on; like Jain, or Birgitte, where those interesting legends are made from. He even got famous, and there is rumours and almost like legends being told about him already.

So him dying would actually make sense; he would die as the hero he was and become a legend. I even think he would become a hero of the horn.

 

Now I know maybe will not agree on my theory of different reasons and one would be; what about Tuon? Why having so much build-ups and things occuring to him marrying her then dying. Well, maybe his dying would make Tuon grief and make changes to the Seanchan, to realise something. And the Seanchan will remember him as the honorable Prince of the Ravens.

 

So we have on who is going to die according to my theories; Perrin I think would live on with Faile and helping the world get stable after the Last Battle.

 

Rand is really hard; maybe he would die, maybe he will not. That's a interesting one to read.

 

All these theories...

 

You are remembering that incorrectly. The Aelfinn actually said:

"To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons! To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was! To give up half the light of the world to save the world! Go to Rhuidean, son of battles! Go to Rhuidean, trickster! Go, gambler! Go!"

 

Nothing about him having to die twice.

This prophecy was fulfilled when Mat died in Caemlyn at the end of Book 5 when Rand goes after Rahvin (not in Rhuidean).

 

So that combined with the fact RJ was planning the outrigger novels set 10 years after Tarmon Gaidon & focusing on Mat, he isn't going to die in the Last Battle.

[AutomatedTeller]

I think that the only thing to shake the Seanchan would be

 

1) Hawkwing telling them they are acting dumb

2) Them finding out that Ishamael basically set up their country

3) Them finding out that their version of the prophecies are corrupt.

 

Only 1 or more of those 3 things could force them to rethink their culture, I think.

 

Course, I don't know what will happen if it's learned widespread that sul'dam can channel...

 

Now, Rand/Mat/Perrin ta'vereness could force them into an accomodation, of course, as could the last freaking battle.

[Luckystrike]

Cirin, I see your point and somehow agree with it, but something in me just screams that Mat will die and become a Hero of the Horn. About the the novels of Mat and Tuon... I don't know, never heard of these kind of novels, who is writing them? It feels like you can't end a story how you want because of those novels, and it feels kind of stupid. Well, but with the myths and gods I agree with you on a level.

 

But as I said before, I really feel like Mat is going to be a Hero of the Horn, it feels right storywise. We have Birgitte, Arthur Hawking, and others like that. Mats situation is kind like of the theories about Taim become a Third Age-forsaken, where Mat is the Third Age-legendary hero. He's life and what he has been through kind of reminds of many heroes in this world and the RJ-world.

 

Well, we just have to see. :)

[Cillian]

I don't know, never heard of these kind of novels, who is writing them?

 

Robert Jordan was planning them. Currently it's unknown if they'll be completed.

 

It feels like you can't end a story how you want because of those novels, and it feels kind of stupid.

 

I have no doubt RJ had already decided how the main series would turn out before planning the outriggers.

 

 

But as I said before, I really feel like Mat is going to be a Hero of the Horn, it feels right storywise.

 

Maybe eventually, but it's not going to happen in the main series.

[Luckystrike]

Clearly I have misunderstood some things; I tought the outrigger novels were something written by someone else, and didn't matter much to the original author, and Mat clearly didn't have to die twice. It seems my memory isn't that good after all. Well, my theories falls really hard then. I stand corrected.

 

 

I don't know what makes me happy; my favourite character surviving or getting an epic death. :P

[Jack Shaftoe]

Mat was beyond awesome in ToM, I loved every second of his arc. I can't wait for him to meet Rand and Egwene and tell them he is married to the Empress of Seanchan. This should be fun.

[Guest Zebbedee]

Mat was pretty awesome. Specially his "removal" of the gholam. That was badass.

 

Anyone notice the interesting thing Moiraine brought up? A man came, but said she wasnt the one he wanted??

 

Im thinking Luc/Isam. I didnt think he went into the ToG in tSR, but it seems likely.

 

I would rather say Moridin.

 

I agree, I think that was how Moridin was able to get the dreamspikes.

[nolirion]

I don't know, never heard of these kind of novels, who is writing them?

 

Robert Jordan was planning them. Currently it's unknown if they'll be completed.

 

It feels like you can't end a story how you want because of those novels, and it feels kind of stupid.

 

I have no doubt RJ had already decided how the main series would turn out before planning the outriggers.

 

 

But as I said before, I really feel like Mat is going to be a Hero of the Horn, it feels right storywise.

 

Maybe eventually, but it's not going to happen in the main series.

About those novel , When Sanderson was in Paris last Tuesday he answer about it .

Basicaly he said he was ok when Lady Jordan asked him but did not felt comfortable with it as he wen't near the end of it .

Those are not is exact word tough so i will look forward to the exact quote