Morgasse not Identifying herself

[louigie15]

I was just curious what you all think is the reason for her not Identifying herself to Perrin and his group once she found out who he was. I can understand why she did when they were on the run from the Seanchan, but now that they were picked up by Perrin's group why not reveal her identity?

[firstfishman]

I am pretty sure Galad might be able to identify her, and I think his whitecloaks have met up with Perrin "off screen"

[The Fisher King]

I am pretty sure Galad might be able to identify her, and I think his whitecloaks have met up with Perrin "off screen"

 

I agree with this, but it doesn't really answer the Original Poster's question, about why, she did not eventually come forward. I'm all for seeing the wisdom in discretion when its warranted, but it frustrated me endlessly with her for illogicaly continuing to keep her identity secret far past the point in time where there was any sensible reason to do so.

 

 

 

Fish

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

Well she had fear of the Dragon Reborn since rumor was that he had 'taken' Caemyln so why would she want to aid in that potentially by revealing herself to be taken to him?

[LazyMonk]

Morgase feels she cannot do anything any more for Andor, she abdicated herself and put her hopes in Elayne. But she can still be used against Andor, as the late Pedron Nial planned, so she prefers to disappear.

Also, she has no reason to trust the Dragon, for her he's just another power mad warlord.

[Byzantine279]

I suppose we are likely to get an On-screen meeting and explanation in ToM.

[FainsLeftFoot]

Well... she is in the camp with the "enemy" no way you look at it, Perrin, or rather Faile wants to see Manetheren rebuilt.....so to do so they need to take over Andoran land, she is probably afraid they will exploit her much like what LazyMonk said was happening with Pedron Niall

[didymos]

Also, consider Morgase's experiences over the last couple years. That her ability to trust has greatly atrophied, even above and beyond the amount expected for a queen, is little surprise. Maybe a few years ago, she might have been more willing to trust Perrin and Co., but after all that crap with Gaebril, Niall, and (oh so especially) Valda? Not a chance in Shayol Ghul. Now add in the general state of the world everyone is living in at the moment, and especially the insanity going on in Amadicia and Ghealdan with the Dragonsworn. Is it not entirely rational? Yeah. Is it surprising or unexpected in the least? No, or at least, it really shouldn't be. Hell, when Perrin first came across her, she had just attempted to flee from pretty much the only people she does trust anymore.

 

Shorter version: Morgase is pretty screwed up right now. People are expecting too much from her.

[waffle]

Shorter version: Morgase is pretty screwed up right now. People are expecting too much from her.

 

Shorter version: she is a wot character

[Duskfire]

I can understand why she has trust issues, but surely by now she had to have realised that Perrin is not like Eamon Valda. If anything, I would say Perrin is more similar to a younger Gareth Bryne - dependable, honest, a bit rough around the edges, good leader, respected, etc etc.

[didymos]

I can understand why she has trust issues, but surely by now she had to have realised that Perrin is not like Eamon Valda. If anything, I would say Perrin is more similar to a younger Gareth Bryne - dependable, honest, a bit rough around the edges, good leader, respected, etc etc.

 

OK, let's put it another way: Morgase is not entirely right in the head anymore. She has, at the very least, some degree of PTSD and depression, and she has been stressed beyond reason for a long, long time (not to mention, she got magically mind-raped by Rahvin for a few months). To expect her to have normal responses to people and events right now just plain isn't realistic. This is one reason people find dealing with those suffering from mental illness so frustrating. Even the people suffering from it often realise their behavior doesn't make a lot of sense, but they can't help themselves. Depression, anxiety, and all that stuff messes up your thought processes and warps your perceptions of things, at a fundamental level, and it's really, really difficult to just stop doing that and see things objectively. Considering that Morgase has essentially no concept or awareness of affective disorders the way we do, it's even more difficult for her to realize what's going on. It's got nothing to do with how nice Perrin is or how smart Morgase is, because her brain ain't working right.

 

Keep in mind that included in that "stressed beyond reason" is the whole shock of going from nigh-universally acknowledged kickass queen of Andor to lovesick, quasi-amnesiac figurehead, to mostly powerless queen-in-exile and Whitecloak prisoner, to maid of some Saldaean lady who's married to some weird dude with yellow eyes from the Two Rivers who hangs out with and is apparently in charge of a bunch Aiel, Mayeners (including the First), Aes Sedai, the Queen of Ghealdan and her soldiers, some Asha'man, etc. (all at the behest of his personal pal, the Dragon Reborn, and all of whom she met in the middle of nowhere after fleeing a Seanchan invasion of Amadicia which triggered her abdication of the throne and a very nearly successful suicide attempt), to utterly powerless Shaido slave who was forced to run naked through snow for days on end and almost died as a result.

 

It's practically a miracle the woman isn't just catatonic and drooling in the corner at this point.

[Elgee]

It's practically a miracle the woman isn't just catatonic and drooling in the corner at this point.

 

Didymos, I've been a bit irritated with Morgaese myself, but you have just very succinctly brought me up short ... lol. Kudos to you for the well-reasoned explanation, and especially the bit at the end!

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

In fact working as a maid for Perrin and Faile is probably the only reason why she isn't completely spazzed out by now.

[Baletickle_to_da_face!]

I think the frustration with Morgase is partly due to the time warp that the series has went into. Where traumatic things that happened to Morgase mere months ago in the books have spanned 15 years for the reader. After watching her bounce around for the better part of 15 years, we want her to finally DO something, but like others have said, it's completely consistent within the WoT world that she would be supremely mistrusting at the very least. I mean, have we even had any scenes with Perrin/Morgase that would call for her trusting him? It's not like Morgase just magically knows that the intense, Aiel chopping, Manetherern flag raising, goldeneyed Perrin is a "good" guy....

[Durinax]

she hasnt revealed who she was because 1) she thought they where dragonsworn 2) heard the dragon conquered andor and was treating it as a conquered province with teh throne as a trophy 3) the manetheren thing

[Brown Ajah]

I can understand why she has trust issues, but surely by now she had to have realised that Perrin is not like Eamon Valda. If anything, I would say Perrin is more similar to a younger Gareth Bryne - dependable, honest, a bit rough around the edges, good leader, respected, etc etc.

 

OK, let's put it another way: Morgase is not entirely right in the head anymore. She has, at the very least, some degree of PTSD and depression, and she has been stressed beyond reason for a long, long time (not to mention, she got magically mind-raped by Rahvin for a few months). To expect her to have normal responses to people and events right now just plain isn't realistic. This is one reason people find dealing with those suffering from mental illness so frustrating. Even the people suffering from it often realise their behavior doesn't make a lot of sense, but they can't help themselves. Depression, anxiety, and all that stuff messes up your thought processes and warps your perceptions of things, at a fundamental level, and it's really, really difficult to just stop doing that and see things objectively. Considering that Morgase has essentially no concept or awareness of affective disorders the way we do, it's even more difficult for her to realize what's going on. It's got nothing to do with how nice Perrin is or how smart Morgase is, because her brain ain't working right.

 

Keep in mind that included in that "stressed beyond reason" is the whole shock of going from nigh-universally acknowledged kickass queen of Andor to lovesick, quasi-amnesiac figurehead, to mostly powerless queen-in-exile and Whitecloak prisoner, to maid of some Saldaean lady who's married to some weird dude with yellow eyes from the Two Rivers who hangs out with and is apparently in charge of a bunch Aiel, Mayeners (including the First), Aes Sedai, the Queen of Ghealdan and her soldiers, some Asha'man, etc. (all at the behest of his personal pal, the Dragon Reborn, and all of whom she met in the middle of nowhere after fleeing a Seanchan invasion of Amadicia which triggered her abdication of the throne and a very nearly successful suicide attempt), to utterly powerless Shaido slave who was forced to run naked through snow for days on end and almost died as a result.

 

It's practically a miracle the woman isn't just catatonic and drooling in the corner at this point.

 

This is all true. Morgase has faced a crap ton of stress. However, I think her character still has some fire left in her. I mean, come on, she was raised to be a leader of a noble house and the Queen of Andor. She's bred to deal with stress. That's why she has hung on. She has reason to be distrustful and has not known Perrin for very long. I think she realizes he is a good man with good intentions, but she still isn't 100% sure about where he intends to go with serving the dragon reborn. And yes.. as others have said... Manetheren. However, is it really that big a deal to give up the Two Rivers that hasn't seen the Queen's soldiers in forever? You'd be setting yourself up with a great ally in Perrin at the loss of a distant small chunk of land that doesn't even pay taxes. We'll see what Elayne does, just thinking...

[mlovelock]

It seems that she has revealed herself in TGS as Tam knows who she is - she obviously reveals it when they are camped by that big statue maybe but we haven't seen that viewpoint yet as it must be coming in the TOM when we catch up to what Perrin is doing.

[Val Mickey]

@Didymus : That was awesome.

 

Plus, it's not like anyone would believe her.

 

"I'm the Queen of Andor."

 

"Yes, and I'm Robert Jordan."

[FarShainMael]

Has Perrin met Elayne? Would he notice the resemblance?

[Durinax]

yes perrin met elayne in the stone, but that was long enough gone for people to forget

[Sid]

Perrin thought about the resemblance of Morgase and Elayne back when he met Morgase in TPoD. He never said anything aloud though.

[haloun]

about tam recognizing her, tam was a soldier in HER army, not only that he was somewhat high ranking, her not recognizing him, is one thing, him recognizing her completely logical, about the whole mistrust thing, just how difficult is it to actually break compulsion? she did it with out being healed or wielding the OP. that has to leave scars on her mind. it just has to.

[TheAngryDruid]

Though I kind of was with the OP at first, the more posts I read, the more I'm with Morgase keeping her ID hid.

 

To be specific, in tPoD Ch 8, A Simple Country Woman, Morgase is initially worried for Elayne when she finds out the Dragon Reborn has plans for her while in Perrin's camp. She means to listen and hope to learn something that will help Elayne. She seems confident (too confident) that Balwer won't betray her identity to Perrin or Faile, though her reasoning (because it will reflect poorly on Balwer since he came with them) is a bit suspect. We also know from this chapter she is afraid of Perrin and his eyes and vies him as the Dragon's henchman, and a "wolf-eyed killer."

 

While a lot has happened since, I do not believe we've had a Morgase PoV since. While in Shaido custody, nothing good could have come of revealing herself, with the dangers of whomever she told being broken somehow, and the info used against Elayne, or Andor. Morgase would never do that.

 

And as others have said, she's been through a lot. She'll likely be questioning her own judgment (making a mess of Andor, going ga-ga over Gaebril, deciding to go to Amador, being raped by Valda, etc). She's a mess emotionally who has made nothing but bad decisions lately. I'm sure the best bet in a situation like that is to play it safe. Super safe.

 

Anyway, we know from Rand's ta'veren vision of Galad with Perrin (tGS Ch. 31) that the two groups will interact at some point, hopefully we find out why she hasn't revealed herself, or at least what makes her change her mind, if she does (Galad could simply blow her cover). Anyway, there are all sort of juicy subplots as Perrin's Group (Perrin, Morgase, Balwer, Berelain) come into contact with Galad's (Byar, Dain). All sorts of covers can be blown (Balwer, Morgase, Tallanvor), secrets outed (Perrin) a long awaited meeting (Berelain/Galad) and some potential confrontations (Dain + Byar v. Perrin).

 

Anyway, there should be some good on screen stuff here, and I hope we see it from more than just Perrin's PoV.

[didymos]

about tam recognizing her, tam was a soldier in HER army, not only that he was somewhat high ranking, her not recognizing him, is one thing, him recognizing her completely logical, about the whole mistrust thing, just how difficult is it to actually break compulsion?

 

Tam was not in her army. Tam was in the Illianer army, and eventually rose to Second Captain of the Illianer Companions. That position would have allowed him to encounter all sorts of high-ranking nobles and monarchs, especially once the Aiel crossed the Dragonwall and everyone was forced into a huge alliance to deal with them.

[Moon Sedai]

Truthfully, If I were in Morgase's situation, I doubt I would reveal myself either.

 

She's already travelling mildly incognito, to avoid re-capture by the Whitecloaks.

She's been mind-raped, body-raped, and generally screwed over by men in authoritative positions over a period of months.

 

 

And she's fallen in with a person who is (apparently) fermenting rebellion within the borders of her nation.

 

Perrin is the leader of a rebellion, and revealing herself mightlead to her execution. He;s trying to carve a sovereign nation out of land in her borders (as far as she knows).

Plus, he's the childhood buddy of The Dragon Reborn, who, as has been mentioned, she believes is trying to Rule Andor.

 

If she had an inkling of an Idea that her Daughter was carrying illegitimate Dragon Reborn twinlings, I don't think she'd be a happy grandmother.

Even if she knew that Rand's "Plans" for Elayne included Cairhein and preventing others from claiming Andor, I KNOW Morgase would be cheesed off if she knew his plans included, well . . . snogging.

 

re

I can see it now. "Hi, Your Majesty. I know I'm the Dragon Reborn and all that, but I really really really really want, well, your daughter. Those babies of hers are mine, after all. Oh, by the way, I'm also in love with an Aiel Wise Woman, and, well, Min. Oh, and your daughter is cool with me sleeping with two other women. But, after all, I am an Andorman, whatever my Aiel birth. Oh, I'm the son of the woman who SHOULD have been queen instead of you, which makes me your stepson's half brother, but in no way blood related to you or your daughter, but at least I am Andoran Nobility, right?????"

 

Yeah, That'll blow over real well.