Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[randalthorr]

Upon discovering that Suldam and by extension Tuon herself can learn to channel, she gives the excuse to Mat that, while she can learn to channel she 'chooses' not to, and that is the difference.

 

Is that not a shallow excuse? The Seanchan still leash them and make use of their abilities. It would have been a fair argument if the channelers were executed or stilled.  Its similar to saying, I'm no murderer, but I'll get a mercenary to do it for me.

[Agitel]

Upon discovering that Suldam and by extension Tuon herself can learn to channel, she gives the excuse to Mat that, while she can learn to channel she 'chooses' not to, and that is the difference.

 

Is that not a shallow excuse? The Seanchan still leash them and make use of their abilities. It would have been a fair argument if the channelers were executed or stilled.  Its similar to saying, I'm no murderer, but I'll get a mercenary to do it for me.

 

It's somewhat of a weak excuse, but Tuon really doesn't have an option that wouldn't, in her mind, throw her entire culture and nation into chaos, and potentially dissolve the Empire. (We as readers may cheer at that option, but as a leader of that nation and feeling responsible for it and believing it's a good thing, Tuon's making the only choice possible to protect it.) Her reasoning is a nuanced approach that will  likely cause some disagreement if it ever became public.

 

I disagree with your analogy, though. It's more like "I've a genetic disposition towards violence and murdering, but I choose not to act on it."

Edited February 26, 2013 by Agitel

[mb]

How did Verin find out about the shadowspawn attack on Caemlyn ( roughly several months before it happened)?

My guesses::

-another Darkfriend telling her

-she eavesdropping or overhearing a conversation about it

-the ordering Forsaken visiting somewhere near her location

-someone happening to predict it in her hearing

 

I guess she found out sometime after she left Rand; is this correct?

 

How come Mat seems to be the only Light-sided character she sent word to about it?

 

the word "went" in the letter; which did it mean?

-that the shadowspawn went before she found out

-that the shadowspawn went before she written the letter

-that the shadowspawn went before the time she indicated in the letter

-that the shadowspawn went at some other time than those

 

 

Elayne got an indicator of the attack through interrogating a Black.  Did Elayne tell anybody else or did she forget?

 

When, where, and through whom did that Black find out?

[EmperorAllspice]

Mat is trying to get the secret of fireworks out of this girl. But she's screwing around with him and giving him riddles and crap to solve.

... why doesn't his Ta'veren-ness just make her tell him? It can make Aes Sedai bow to Rand and cause the most ruthless traders in the world to agree to a deal with Mat. I thought being Ta'veren made things that someone COULD say but likely wouldn't far more likely. but it can't make someone say something they would NEVER in a million years say.

Is that implying that this random illuminator physically would NEVER tell Mat the secret unless he solves her riddle? Implying she has more willpower than the flaming SEA FOLK.

Edited March 1, 2013 by EmperorAllspice

[EmperorAllspice]

Why hadn't the people of the AOL discovered a way to cure stilling and unthread weaves?

 

I know, I know "They consider it impossible" But WHY? I don't buy that a culture thousands of years ahead of ours, with countless scholars, eager students and straight up mavericks trying to do the impossible wouldn't have discovered SOMETHING. The unthreading weaves thing is especially inexcusible. The Aiel wise ones learned how to do it. and it really doesn't sound that intricate (especially if you start off small which is what Aviendha says happens when they learn how to do it. They don't START with trying to unweave gateways.

 

People say "They were afraid to see what would happen" I don't buy that. That's not how people work. There will always be SOMEONE who goes against the grain and brings forth innovation. People are ambitious. There weren't even a handful of people with Nynaeve's drive back in the AOL trying to cure stilling? The cure really didn't sound that complicated.

 

I refuse to believe that ambitiousness didn't exist until the 3rd age

Edited March 1, 2013 by EmperorAllspice

[jedman67]

Mat is trying to get the secret of fireworks out of this girl. But she's screwing around with him and giving him riddles and crap to solve.

 

... why doesn't his Ta'veren-ness just make her tell him? It can make Aes Sedai bow to Rand and cause the most ruthless traders in the world to agree to a deal with Mat. I thought being Ta'veren made things that someone COULD say but likely wouldn't far more likely. but it can't make someone say something they would NEVER in a million years say.

 

Is that implying that this random illuminator physically would NEVER tell Mat the secret unless he solves her riddle? Implying she has more willpower than the flaming SEA FOLK.

an illuminator NEVER reveals secrets to non-guild members; not even in bed. Secondly, it appears that ta'averen 'tugs' on speech has everything to do with willpower. If the TV is trying to accomplish something, it tends to 'tug' events around him to his benefit. Mat was just curious with Aludra, but with the sea folk he wanted to be out of Ebu Dar, yesterday. He was pulling all his strings (pun intended) to get the blasted BoW used and done with. The sea folk were trying to seal a Bargain, but were not prepared for dealing with a TV. (BTW, 'daughter of sands' i lol'ed!)

Thats my theory anyway :)

 

 

Why hadn't the people of the AOL discovered a way to cure stilling and unthread weaves?

 

I know, I know "They consider it impossible" But WHY? I don't buy that a culture thousands of years ahead of ours, with countless scholars, eager students and straight up mavericks trying to do the impossible wouldn't have discovered SOMETHING. The unthreading weaves thing is especially inexcusible. The Aiel wise ones learned how to do it. and it really doesn't sound that intricate (especially if you start off small which is what Aviendha says happens when they learn how to do it. They don't START with trying to unweave gateways.

 

People say "They were afraid to see what would happen" I don't buy that. That's not how people work. There will always be SOMEONE who goes against the grain and brings forth innovation. People are ambitious. There weren't even a handful of people with Nynaeve's drive back in the AOL trying to cure stilling? The cure really didn't sound that complicated.

 

I refuse to believe that ambitiousness didn't exist until the 3rd age

If you read between the lines carefully, you will see that the AoL was anything but. Lets say for arguments sake that the Breaking started in 4,000-5,000 AD. (People had long lives in the AoL). Crime was brutally supressed; if someone committed a crime, ONCE, there was no lawyer or jury. The Servants of the People (Aes Sedai) were the Imperial Senate, for all intents and purposes. There is a whole discussion on it somewhere. While someone, somewhere may have invented unweaving, its entirely possible that the use of it was discouraged for political and practical reasons. Even if its fully safe, its not without greater risk than simply letting it collapse. In the WoS it likely was not necessary to focus on the 'impossible', and AFAIK 'severing' was considered to be a punishment for criminals - no need to learn to Heal it in the first place.

[EmperorAllspice]

But I always thought Ta'veren-ness happened on a wide scale and couldn't be controlled. (like I always thought Aram was a display of the negative effect a Ta'veren could have just by being in proximity to someone)

[Agitel]

But I always thought Ta'veren-ness happened on a wide scale and couldn't be controlled. (like I always thought Aram was a display of the negative effect a Ta'veren could have just by being in proximity to someone)

 

It doesn't always work in a person's favor. And to some extent when a person tries to use their ta'vereness, it depends on Wheel's needs.

 

I don't know how much you know about Aram yet, but Aram's looking for a cause and purpose to fill the void left from leaving his people and way of life and Perrin's largely ignoring him.

Edited March 1, 2013 by Agitel

[EmperorAllspice]

I know that, I meant that Aram's decision to abandon being a Tinker in the first place was because of Perrin's Ta'veren-ness

[Agitel]

I know that, I meant that Aram's decision to abandon being a Tinker in the first place was because of Perrin's Ta'veren-ness

 

Oh, okay. Perrin's ta'vereness was probably a factor. However, in EotW, Aram's grandparents talk to Perrin and Elyas about how they're worried about Aram and how he was finding following the Way of the Leaf difficult, which brings up discussion about what happens to Tinkers who abandon it. So the seed of doubt in Aram was already there. That's often how being ta'veren works. It requires the person to already have that seed there to persuade them. It is possible that Aram leaving may have happened whether or not Perrin was ta'veren. They were in pretty stark circumstances where the Way of the Leaf -- not taking up arms to defend yourself --  may have seemed especially impractical to Aram, given the only other alternative was to see yourself and your loved ones slaughtered by trollocs.

 

Anyway, back to what I said about that seed. That partly explains why Aludra didn't cave. Not an ounce of her would ever think of sharing that secret with Mat to begin with.

Edited March 1, 2013 by Agitel

[Whizbang]

Ah, but Aludra was willing to share secrets, if he figured out what she needed a bellfounder for and was able to provide one/many. She said she'd reveal all her secrets, even the ones that would make him blush. So, there was the seed that she would give up the secrets.

 

Also, as the last Illuminator, she was going to have to tell SOMEBODY. Else, how would the Illuminator guild re-grow? She'd either need to have kids or tell someone trustworthy.

 

Mat's ta'veren pull didn't make her tell because she needed to come along with him to Andor and the bellfounders there. Also, she had a strong will against telling. We've seen a few instances where someone can resist the ta'veren pull (Tuon does it. Egwene does it. I think Cadsuane does it. I think there were others around Mat and Perrin that did it too, but not sure).

[EmperorAllspice]

Can Forsaken do it?

 

Have Forsaken ever yielded to a Ta'veren's pull

[mb]

unanswered::

How did Verin find out about the shadowspawn attack on Caemlyn ( roughly several months before it happened)?

My guesses::

-another Darkfriend telling her

-she eavesdropping or overhearing a conversation about it

-the ordering Forsaken visiting somewhere near her location

-someone happening to predict it in her hearing

 

I guess she found out sometime after she left Rand; is this correct?

 

How come Mat seems to be the only Light-sided character she sent word to about it?

 

the word "went" in the letter; which did it mean?

-that the shadowspawn went before she found out

-that the shadowspawn went before she written the letter

-that the shadowspawn went before the time she indicated in the letter

-that the shadowspawn went at some other time than those

 

 

Elayne got an indicator of the attack through interrogating a Black.  Did Elayne tell anybody else or did she forget?

 

When, where, and through whom did that Black find out?

 

other questions (about something else)::

After Ramshalan told his mission, Graendal did a gateway but did not go through it.  Where exactly was she going to go? same place she was found in Chapter 5 or somewhere else?

And what happened to that gateway? dissipate when she channeled her next weave or when she released the True Power?

If that gateway remained, how come she did a new gateway (to flee from the balefire)?

 

Where did Ramshalan get the name Lady Basene?  Arangar, Delana, or Graendal's servants telling him?

And was she disguised by the Illusion weave?  If so, same disguise she showed Sammael much earlier?

[BFG]

 

She instantly wove a gateway to one of her most secure hiding places. Cool air

wafted in from an area of the world where it was morning, not early evening.

Best to be careful. Best to flee. And yet . . .

 

She hesitated. He must know pain . . . he must know frustration . . . he

must know anguish. Bring these to him. You will be rewarded.

 

Aran'gar had fled from her place among Aes Sedai, foolishly allowing herself to

be sensed channeling saidin.

She still bore punishment for her failure. If Graendal left now—discarding a

chance to twist al'Thor about himself—would she be similarly punished?

 

"What is this?" Aran'gar's voice asked outside. "Let me through,

you fools. Graendal? What are you doing?"

 

Graendal hissed softly, then closed the gateway and composed herself. She

nodded for Aran'gar to be allowed into the room. The lithe woman stepped up to

the doorway, eyeing—and assessing—Ramshalan. Graendal shouldn't have sent the

pets to her; the move had likely made her suspicious.

 

If this is the one you meant, then she closed it again to hide it from Aran'gar.

[Rhienne]

How did Thom survive being wounded by a Mydraal in tEoTW?  In tSR Moiraine comments that if he had got to an AS for healing he wouldn't have a limp.  I thought anyone cut with a Myrdraal blade died unless they got AS healing?

[Mr Ares]

Mat is trying to get the secret of fireworks out of this girl. But she's screwing around with him and giving him riddles and crap to solve.

 

... why doesn't his Ta'veren-ness just make her tell him? It can make Aes Sedai bow to Rand and cause the most ruthless traders in the world to agree to a deal with Mat. I thought being Ta'veren made things that someone COULD say but likely wouldn't far more likely. but it can't make someone say something they would NEVER in a million years say.

 

Is that implying that this random illuminator physically would NEVER tell Mat the secret unless he solves her riddle? Implying she has more willpower than the flaming SEA FOLK.

Ta'veren doesn't work according to the desires of the ta'veren, but the needs of the Pattern. If the Pattern doesn't need him to have the information yet, why would it bend in his favour?

 

Why hadn't the people of the AOL discovered a way to cure stilling and unthread weaves?

 

I know, I know "They consider it impossible" But WHY? I don't buy that a culture thousands of years ahead of ours, with countless scholars, eager students and straight up mavericks trying to do the impossible wouldn't have discovered SOMETHING. The unthreading weaves thing is especially inexcusible. The Aiel wise ones learned how to do it. and it really doesn't sound that intricate (especially if you start off small which is what Aviendha says happens when they learn how to do it. They don't START with trying to unweave gateways.

 

People say "They were afraid to see what would happen" I don't buy that. That's not how people work. There will always be SOMEONE who goes against the grain and brings forth innovation. People are ambitious. There weren't even a handful of people with Nynaeve's drive back in the AOL trying to cure stilling? The cure really didn't sound that complicated.

 

I refuse to believe that ambitiousness didn't exist until the 3rd age

Did the necessary ambition exist in someone with the necessary Talent for Delving and Healing? Was the risk of damage, to yourself and others, worth the possible advantages, which are very minor, of unweaving? In our own history, many erroneous assumptions have gone unchallenged for centuries before being overturned.

 

 

Why hadn't the people of the AOL discovered a way to cure stilling and unthread weaves?

 

I know, I know "They consider it impossible" But WHY? I don't buy that a culture thousands of years ahead of ours, with countless scholars, eager students and straight up mavericks trying to do the impossible wouldn't have discovered SOMETHING. The unthreading weaves thing is especially inexcusible. The Aiel wise ones learned how to do it. and it really doesn't sound that intricate (especially if you start off small which is what Aviendha says happens when they learn how to do it. They don't START with trying to unweave gateways.

 

People say "They were afraid to see what would happen" I don't buy that. That's not how people work. There will always be SOMEONE who goes against the grain and brings forth innovation. People are ambitious. There weren't even a handful of people with Nynaeve's drive back in the AOL trying to cure stilling? The cure really didn't sound that complicated.

 

I refuse to believe that ambitiousness didn't exist until the 3rd age

If you read between the lines carefully, you will see that the AoL was anything but. Lets say for arguments sake that the Breaking started in 4,000-5,000 AD. (People had long lives in the AoL). Crime was brutally supressed; if someone committed a crime, ONCE, there was no lawyer or jury. The Servants of the People (Aes Sedai) were the Imperial Senate, for all intents and purposes. There is a whole discussion on it somewhere. While someone, somewhere may have invented unweaving, its entirely possible that the use of it was discouraged for political and practical reasons. Even if its fully safe, its not without greater risk than simply letting it collapse. In the WoS it likely was not necessary to focus on the 'impossible', and AFAIK 'severing' was considered to be a punishment for criminals - no need to learn to Heal it in the first place.

At least one of the Chosen was a lawyer prior to joining the Shadow (an evil lawyer? I know, it does sound rather implausible, doesn't it?). Balthamel never earned a third name, due to his actions, but wasn't bound, and Semi was a repeat offender before being given her choice. Also, bear in mind that Severing could be carried out by a criminal on a law abiding AS, if they knew how - knowing how to undo it could certainly have applications. I'm not aware of any real degree of evidence in support of the "AoL is a fascist dystopia" idea.

 

How did Thom survive being wounded by a Mydraal in tEoTW?  In tSR Moiraine comments that if he had got to an AS for healing he wouldn't have a limp.  I thought anyone cut with a Myrdraal blade died unless they got AS healing?

He wasn't cut with a Myrddraal's blade.

[EmperorAllspice]

 

Mat is trying to get the secret of fireworks out of this girl. But she's screwing around with him and giving him riddles and crap to solve.

 

... why doesn't his Ta'veren-ness just make her tell him? It can make Aes Sedai bow to Rand and cause the most ruthless traders in the world to agree to a deal with Mat. I thought being Ta'veren made things that someone COULD say but likely wouldn't far more likely. but it can't make someone say something they would NEVER in a million years say.

 

Is that implying that this random illuminator physically would NEVER tell Mat the secret unless he solves her riddle? Implying she has more willpower than the flaming SEA FOLK.

Ta'veren doesn't work according to the desires of the ta'veren, but the needs of the Pattern. If the Pattern doesn't need him to have the information yet, why would it bend in his favour?

Oh, so whenever Robert Jordan needs him to know something. Right. (rolls eyes)

Edited March 2, 2013 by EmperorAllspice

[Agitel]

 

 

Mat is trying to get the secret of fireworks out of this girl. But she's screwing around with him and giving him riddles and crap to solve.

 

... why doesn't his Ta'veren-ness just make her tell him? It can make Aes Sedai bow to Rand and cause the most ruthless traders in the world to agree to a deal with Mat. I thought being Ta'veren made things that someone COULD say but likely wouldn't far more likely. but it can't make someone say something they would NEVER in a million years say.

 

Is that implying that this random illuminator physically would NEVER tell Mat the secret unless he solves her riddle? Implying she has more willpower than the flaming SEA FOLK.

Ta'veren doesn't work according to the desires of the ta'veren, but the needs of the Pattern. If the Pattern doesn't need him to have the information yet, why would it bend in his favour?

Oh, so whenever Robert Jordan needs him to know something. Right. (rolls eyes)

 

Isn't that how all characters in every fictional plot ever learn things?

[EmperorAllspice]

 

 

 

Mat is trying to get the secret of fireworks out of this girl. But she's screwing around with him and giving him riddles and crap to solve.

 

... why doesn't his Ta'veren-ness just make her tell him? It can make Aes Sedai bow to Rand and cause the most ruthless traders in the world to agree to a deal with Mat. I thought being Ta'veren made things that someone COULD say but likely wouldn't far more likely. but it can't make someone say something they would NEVER in a million years say.

 

Is that implying that this random illuminator physically would NEVER tell Mat the secret unless he solves her riddle? Implying she has more willpower than the flaming SEA FOLK.

Ta'veren doesn't work according to the desires of the ta'veren, but the needs of the Pattern. If the Pattern doesn't need him to have the information yet, why would it bend in his favour?

Oh, so whenever Robert Jordan needs him to know something. Right. (rolls eyes)

 

Isn't that how all characters in every fictional plot ever learn things?

Generally it's considered a sign of bad writing if something happens purely because the author wants it to happen regardless of whether or not it works with the characters and setting you've set up. Hanging a neon sign around your story saying "I'm aware of this" does not negate the fact that you're doing it or make it suddenly inspired. At least not the way RJ is doing it

 

I'm constantly wrestling with this story. Explaining the way Ta'vern-ness and the Pattern works in my head so that it isn't the be all and end all of everything and the story can actually have some tension. So forgive me if I never accept "The pattern doesn't need this." or "The pattern needed this to happen" as anything even approaching a satisfactory answer. If this were any other series. "The author doesn't need this" and "The author needed this to happen" would be laughed out of any discussion as an explanation for anything.

 

... sorry, (straightens self) major wonk of mine

Edited March 2, 2013 by EmperorAllspice

[Agitel]

 

 

 

 

Mat is trying to get the secret of fireworks out of this girl. But she's screwing around with him and giving him riddles and crap to solve.

 

... why doesn't his Ta'veren-ness just make her tell him? It can make Aes Sedai bow to Rand and cause the most ruthless traders in the world to agree to a deal with Mat. I thought being Ta'veren made things that someone COULD say but likely wouldn't far more likely. but it can't make someone say something they would NEVER in a million years say.

 

Is that implying that this random illuminator physically would NEVER tell Mat the secret unless he solves her riddle? Implying she has more willpower than the flaming SEA FOLK.

Ta'veren doesn't work according to the desires of the ta'veren, but the needs of the Pattern. If the Pattern doesn't need him to have the information yet, why would it bend in his favour?

Oh, so whenever Robert Jordan needs him to know something. Right. (rolls eyes)

 

Isn't that how all characters in every fictional plot ever learn things?

Generally it's considered a sign of bad writing if something happens purely because the author wants it to happen regardless of whether or not it works with the characters and setting you've set up. Hanging a neon sign around your story saying "I'm aware of this" does not negate the fact that you're doing it or make it suddenly inspired. At least not the way RJ is doing it

 

I'm constantly wrestling with this story. Explaining the way Ta'vern-ness and the Pattern works in my head so that it isn't the be all and end all of everything and the story can actually have some tension. So forgive me if I never accept "The pattern doesn't need this." or "The pattern needed this to happen" as anything even approaching a satisfactory answer. If this were any other series. "The author doesn't need this" and "The author needed this to happen" would be laughed out of any discussion as an explanation for anything.

 

... sorry, (straightens self) major wonk of mine

 

I don't know, the mechanics seem clear enough, and Jordan's use of ta'veren never felt whim-based or broke the veil of illusion for me. Jordan does have a problem with creating tension in the narrative, though. His villains aren't overtly effective enough. Technically, they do some interesting things, but often they are done outside of the narrative and only come to light later.

Edited March 2, 2013 by Agitel

[EmperorAllspice]

The mechanics are arbitrary by their DEFINITION.

 

YOu just said. Ta'vereness only works if teh pattern (Robert Jordan) needs something to happen

[Whizbang]

One note on Healing severing in the AoL: I think I remember reading that they didn't have Delving in the AoL. They had to rely on what they knew about anatomy and what they could observe about the injury/illness.

 

I could be completely wrong about this, of course, but I think Delving was developed during the third age. Therefore, they probably never would have been able to detect the hole that Nyn found to be able to cure it.

Edited March 2, 2013 by Whizbang

[gpace1216]

@emperor, it seems that you understand the taverenness pretty well.  i don't think you're going to get an explanation that you like, because it doesn't exist.  it seems to be akin to complaining that Harry Potter solves all of his problems by using magic and his friends, when its a story about a boy who uses magic and has helpful friends.  i personally think the taveren thing is a cool plot device, and its perfectly fine that you disagree, but i think its something you need to just accept or move on.

Edited March 3, 2013 by gpace1216

[EmperorAllspice]

I mostly justify Ta'veren by assuming that the pattern isn't actually a thing which knows the future in any real capacity nor does the Pattern have a plan. The pattern is crafted by people. The pattern doesn't control anything. it just balances good luck with bad luck. The shadow taints the pattern and Ta'veren are created to adress the balance.

 

I just believe while reading that Ta'vren are merely people who radiate an aura of fluctuating probability. (shrug)

 

It's better than assuming that some higher force is shaping everything

[mrtumnas]

Never thought about this until today, while reading in The Shadow Rising when Asmodean tells Rand's crew and the Aiel a post-Breaking tale, and it got me wondering...

The Forsaken have only been free for a little while, and with the exception of Ishamael they have been unaware of the world. How do they know so much about the people and customs of Randland? They never show any knowledge gaps when interacting with people, and have no problem speaking the common tongue, and seem to have a better grasp than most about what's been going on for the past few thousand years. It seems like, in Asmodean's case, memorizing a ballad about Manetheren would be pretty low on the todo list after being free for the first time in over three thousand years